Contributors to this thread:
Shiras Moose the Truth on their range
OK, Looking to do a Shiras Moose hunt. P&Y and B&C both indicate that the boarder of Canada (BC) is were the range of the Shiras moose stops. Yet SCI for the Grand Slam indicated that Shiras Moose are in BC as long as you stay south of HWY 1.
Yet Biologists say that the Shiras Moose range does in fact go into BC. WHO is right and who is wrong.
Getting a Moose tag in the lower 48 is next to impossible, but when you look to BC you get penalized from the scoring agencies for where you took it.
Seriously, Moose know that they have to stay on one side of the boarder vs crossing into BC.
We need to build a wall:)
I had a similar dilemma while looking into Shiras hunts last fall. Ended up going to Southern BC and killing a great bull. I can't enter him as a Shiras, but I'm 95% sure he is a Shiras. Like you said, Grand Slam and SCI calls him a Shiras. I've GOT to believe the Southern BC moose are Shiras as last I checked there was no wall and moose aren't very good at discerning boundary lines.
Maybe some day they'll start DNA testing these like they are the Blacktails/Mulies in Cali. Until that happens, I killed a Shiras Moose.
You can actually hunt Shiras Moose in the lower 48 any time you're willing to spend the money. Utah has CWMU hunts, Colorado has RFW hunts. And WY, CO, MT, and UT all have auction tags. And there are easy-to-draw cow tags in several states.
But I agree with you....the Shiras Moose being hunted in the northern panhandle of Idaho, and in NW Montana, are not a different species than the moose living a mile across the border in southern BC.
It just a man made designation, according to noted moose biologist Valurius Geist
It is an imaginary line,...but where do you stop it? At some point you are getting strong influence from non shiras moose and the antlers reflect that
"We need to build a wall:)"
That was pretty damn funny!
There is a Shiras moose DNA study in progress, read the Winter 2014 edition of the P&Y Ethic magazine. kota-man, your moose could be part of the study and answer your question as to weather or not your bull is in fact a Shiras. The boundary line was drawn before DNA was available and was based on the science at the time. The line errors on the side of the smaller (Shiras)species. P&Y and B&C are moving forward and who knows... maybe a new boundary line can be drawn. Ed F
B&C/P&Y and SCI are private organizations with boundaries that are set with varying degrees of arbitrarity. They are both right for the reasons they state when establishing the boundary.
Huh.... I wonder what the DNA minimum scores will be..... =D
Net of course.... gross DNA is just.... gross....
TD, would that be like a PSA score? Some of us old guys are as concerned about that as P&Y..
I'll be in northern Utah in October trying to tip one over. Probably end up being a lost Canadian moose and not count.
I was watching a NoCo bull in the willows below my cabin tonight that looks like he's growing Canadian moose antlers. Too early to tell but looks like he's going to be a HELL of a bull.
I'll likely be dead before I draw for my unit, though, the way the CO lottery works...
The body size can be a great indication of Shiras vs Western Canada Moose.
I would apply for Idaho draws, hope to get lucky, or just go hunt one in Canada and not care what others say about it being a Shiras or not.
Lou, I can only imagine how you feel about being so close to those bulls and not being able to draw a tag! Some day!
Not sure how much DNA will make a difference. DNA shows Fannin sheep are really just Doll sheep but they are still in the books as Stones.
The article in Ethic pointed out the possibility of a boundary change once the science is in. That tells me that it will change if it should change.
when men apply arbitrary scoring metrics to wildlife for record keeping purposes you get manmade arbitrary boundaries to go along with it.
there has to be a line somewhere if differentiation is present
It's really no different than a lot of man made boundaries. The same could be said for the line between British Columbia and The Yukon. Are the moose along the border Canadian Moose or Alaskan/Yukon?
Your absolutly correct moose were continuly given new names as the scientific community moved westward its more a habitat designation than any sort of species or subspecies classification. And as new areas were explored it became popular and a rush to judgment to get a species named after oneself. Latter when more scientific research revealed that there was only two moose species in the world the hasty naming game had set in as it is no big deal let it be. Any noted size or coloration difference are mearly habitat influences. See Valrius Giest noted work Moose: Behavior, Ecology, Conservation
"there was only two moose species in the world"
Curious, North American and European, I'm guessing?
Nah, that can't be right, the Russian Siberian are even bigger than the Yukon/Alaskan...
I suspect that nearly all body size differences would be due to Bergman's Rule. Assuming a moose has the ability to better nutrition the larger antler development in a given subspecies could possibly also be attributed to Bergman's Rule?