Colorado DOW Leftover failure
Elk
So the public left over list just came out for Colorado. On it are tags that people have returned, which is new this year.
SO.. someone doesn't draw a tag because there is not enough tags. They send a "priority" left over list, look it over, apply and draw. So you bought a tag. Now today when the public left over list comes out. You see that there are the tags as leftover tags that you couldn't draw and weren't available on the first left over list. Due to these returns there are also now leftover tags available that can take 12 PP's to draw for sale to the public OTC. But you can't buy one because you already have a tag.. and I'm told you can't return a tag in time for leftover?
So why draw or put in for leftover just wait until the public leftover list with the returns and buy once in a decade tags every year? Can anyone provide more insight into this... I'm glad these tags are available however don't believe this is the way to do it. I'm betting this isn't going to be a level playing field getting these tags. Can't license agents just buy it for themselves or their friends or whomever lines their pockets before helping people in line?
You can exchange the tag if you go to a licensing service center. This creates a bigger problem for nonresidents.
One problem I see for me is that I just bought an OTC elk tag (had to in order to get my bear tag). Now there are leftover elk archery tags that I want instead, but I don't have my OTC tag to turn in next Tuesday.
If I get lucky and can get one of the tags that only has a couple left, I am going to be mad if they can't exchange my OTC tag just because I don't have it in hand. Not sure how that will work. Does anyone know if you can exchange a tag that you haven't received yet???
Overall I think it's better that they reissue the tags that are turned in though, otherwise we never would have had a shot at them.
Does anyone know if you can exchange a tag that you haven't received yet???
Nope you cant
Nope you cant
Well that sucks. I'll hope for a miracle that it gets here by Monday....
Yep, as mentioned you cant turn in a tag now and get a leftover... it wont be processed in time (before Tuesday). You can turn it in and watch every week (going forward) to see what else gets turned in though.
You cant take a tag and "trade up", so its really no use even if you have the tag at this point... at least that's what I gather from talking to multiple people at the DOW.
Once a tag is returned, there is a "processing" lag time that would prevent people from seeing the re-issue list and trying to get a tag on that list.
Hmm. Well, I turned back in a muzzy tag at a DOW office and immediately bought an OTC archery tag 2 years ago. If you turn back a tag why couldn't you immediately buy an left over tag, since it will be OTC leftover at that point. But I did have the tag in hand
I predicted when they announced how they were going to reissue the turn back tags that there would be people camping out at the DOW offices the night before (next Monday night). I still think that will happen
With probably thousands of people wanting them, I assume the odds of getting one of the turned-back high-demand tags will be slim to none. And how does being at a DOW office help? All license agents get access at the same time.
Your local bait shop is probably the place to be. No lines. If i was a license agent what keeps it fair?
Your local bait shop is probably the place to be. No lines. If i was a license agent what keeps it fair?
What keeps it fair, is losing your licence vendor ability and possibly hunting privileges
I just looked at the leftover list
There are 3 leftover archery tags for 61.... wow
EE06101A
Three lucky people are gonna get a nice tag
" And how does being at a DOW office help?"
I suspect that being first in line at a DOW office would be a faster way of securing a tag than trying to get in by phone.
Internet apps won't be allowed till Midnight that night. The best tags will be gone by 9:30 AM on the 2nd.
" If i was a license agent what keeps it fair?"
Not much! I suspect there will be some deals made for tags by friends of DOW employees. The only way to make it really fair would be to reissue to the next guy in line from the original drawing,
AND, this won't be the only "list" People will be turning in tags all fall (30 day rule)
"The best tags will be gone by 9:30 AM on the 2nd."
Wrong. Make that 9:02am
Yep, Agree with TXhunter 58. That's what Utah does.
You can exchange a tag up to 1 week after the deadline- I had an option to do it with a 1st rifle 75 tag I drew in exchange for a unit 12 1st season-both draw hunts with little or no points required. My tag was a EE or and I wanted a Bull tag 1st season in 12- when a camp opened and a outfitter called me. - my trade did not work out on my drop camp arrangement so I kept my 75 tag. I was surprised they were allowing it- I'm thinking that's where the LO tags come from maybe. I'm a Non resident-Love your state (CO)- and hunt every other year-sometimes with a bow sometimes with a firearm depending on my schedule.
False assumption: That this was for hunters, it's not, it was for them ($)... What's better than selling a piece of paper for $500??? Selling it twice!
Yep and for the Primo tags, that is exactly what they do. To get your points back, you have to let them keep your money, so they make double. Couple of years ago, I let them keep my $600 for my elk tag to get my points back
The line at the CPW office will be out the parking lot. Probably need to go the day before if you want to be first in line!
The reissue on the leftover list was a compromise so as to not create more work for the CPW trying to find and alternates, taking points, payments etc. They have thousands of tags turned back every year so it would be another full time job to reissue that way.
Am I reading it correctly that these tags can only be purchased at CPW offices, licensed dealers, or by mailing in a form?
Before electronic sales I stood in line at 4AM in December to buy a cow tag. They issued a few hundred special late cow tags to get some elk off of ranches. There were folks already there when I got there. It was freezing and people were trying to save their spot while they ran to the car to warm up. By the time the first DOW employee pulled in (wide eyed), there were a couple hundred people waiting and two cops trying to sort out people cutting in and arguments over saving spots.
The DOW folks were completely caught off guard. The doors opened and only the first couple guys got tags before they were gone.
huh...they need to fix this. These primo tags should go to those in order, not sluffs like me who have no business getting a tag others have spent years trying for. That being said, I'll still try to get one.
Just finished looking the list over. I wrote down a bunch of great tags and alternates I will try for. When you have a tag that would sell for thousands, its going to tempt people to stack the odds in their favor.
Joe's Bait shop might have 10 people waiting at the door but Joe's nephew might be already first in line inside at the counter sipping coffee.
I'm willing to pay top dollar to any walmart of bait shop employees who want to be my new uncle and have access to a license machine Aug 2nd at 9am to save me a spot in line. No I'm not serious, yes this will happen.
I agree with Glunt and think that could be a huge problem. I also think that they should give the tag to the next person in line for any tag that requires over 5 preference points. Besides that i'm happy that I get a chance at getting a deer tag that I was unsuccessful on with 2 pref points.
Whats driving all the returns? Folks who just go for every tag they can knowing if they draw 2 they can turn 1 back in? I understand for military deployment or illness but otherwise you should own it or it should go to the next from the original draw and I don't care if its s full time job. Flippin hate this tag BS all the time.
I can't see the list. When I try to open it I get a file failure message. Anyone else having this issue?
ANyone ever tried to do this over the phone? What's the experience like? Any chance? I'm not going for a popular tag, only one that typically takes 1 pt to draw.
I've been looking for a small license retailer by me that wont have a long line and it seems like most open at 10am. The tags go on sale at 9am so I think there could be a lot of people printing their own tags.
I asked DOW how they are going to stop license agents from doing this... Their response was "Honor System, Oh we wouldn't even want to think someone would buy tags for themselves." Right, so a Walmart employee isn't going to print a tag worth 8 years of drawing and thousands of dollars for themselves before they help the people in line?
I wonder how long it takes to get a job at Walmart?
This sounds like a huge mess................
What's the phone experience like?
"Thank you for calling Colorado Parks and Wildlife. If you know the extension of the person you are calling, please enter it now. Otherwise, please stay on the line..."
Cue the hold music...
A unit 61 tag takes 12 years or around $7000.00. The honor system works for the little penny container at 7-11 when you need 2 cents to make change. Imagine the Colorado Lottery having a guaranteed winner day when special tickets go on sale at 9:00AM and the first 3 sold are guaranteed to be $7000.00 winners.
Quote: "Whats driving all the returns?". No doubt the tag returns have happened at a similar rate for years. But this is the first time the information has become public knowledge.
Lots of scenarios could result in turning back a tag. A guy drew too many tags and had to make a choice, or personal issues, job issues, health issues, etc. Let's say 1 or 2% is typical for a return rate. That's a very small percentage, but still a lot of tags.
The system kinda sucks for those who applied and did not get in and at the same time imagine how awesome it would be to get one of these coveted tags? Can't say I wouldn't mind picking one up!
1000's of license machines.. people in line or on the phone will never make it to those tags in time.
Something needed to be done, as I was told they were getting about 9,000 returned tags every year. Good way for the DOW to make more money and for hunters to actually use the tags.
So I am understanding this correctly that the tags on the list are available on a first come first serve basis on August 2nd regardless of preference points or residency
@spikebow
Yep. You are understanding that correctly
It would be better if they had a second draw-on the unsuccessful applicants- or a new list of interested applicants-that would be easier on everyone involved. After the 2nd draw-then left over sales by all means-Phone, internet, retail stores or license centers-there would be no rush to deal with and everybody would be treated fairly. But were talking about a Government entity here-there seems to be a lack of common courtesy to hunters who applied and were denied the first time. I really like CO-but the politics there leaves a bitter taste for this N.R. Its a good opportunity-but I question the fairness of it.
Jim L- they already have a Second draw for leftovers prior to the release. you just have to check the box on your first app.
and no online the first day because the system will crash! They've done it before
Wow, wasn't aware you could go buy a leftover at Walmat, etc!! I thought you have to go to a DOW office or call them on the phone. Or wait until Midnight and buy them online. If so, DAM$ as this is more of a mess than I thought
These licenses in the past were always wasted...nobody got them. I think it's great they're now being re-distributed. To me, this method they chose was the best possible solution. They probably knew there are just way too many returned licenses to re-issue them manually like they do with S/M/G returned licenses. That no doubt was considered an unacceptable drain on manpower and time. If they followed the manual re-issue method they currently use for returned S/M/G licenses, they'd have to offer each of the returned elk/deer/antelope licenses to the next-in-line applicant, then wait a few days to see if the person decides to take it, then if not, call the next person in line, wait again, and then finally when someone says yes, then wait for the check to come in the mail and clear, and if not, call the next in line and start all over again on that license. And continue the process for potentially hundreds of returned licenses. I'm assuming that would not be a feasible process for this volume of licenses. And keeping in mind that more high-demand tags will continue to be returned all the way into the fall. Because people can return then up to 30 days prior to season opener, and they most definitely will be doing that!
Surely not in this day and tech age. How about you give them a cell number and a computer texts the next person, and they have 24 hours to call in and pay. You get the idea. Surely there has got to be a better tech answer....
And no one is talking about all of the returned tags. There are not that many high demand tags are there? If you limit it to those tags turned back in that take more than 5 points, would there really be that many?
"There are not that many high demand tags are there?"
Here are a couple high demand archery elk units...
EEØ76O1A [Either sex elk GMU 76 archery] 8 tags available
EE0061o1A [Either sex elk GMU 61 archery] 3 tags
WOW! A whole bunch of entitled whiners here... What if this person this or that person that... It was not too many years ago that the left over list would bring in hundreds of people for the tags. I remember in the late 90s working at the Ft. Collins DOW and have over 200 people in line.
Most DOW offices will run it like this... Arrive early. People will draw a number that is your place in line. You draw low and get a tag. Draw high and are forced to sort what is left over.
Seriously this process is a great step and I am not sure why anyone would whine about it at all! considering that just last year no one at all got all these great tags. Quit bitching get in line and hope you are lucky. Hell this is a lot better than the whole damn PP mess. At least my daughter might have a chance to hunt a decent tag while I can still walk.
As far as small license places, pretty simple. Get in line if they cheat you destroy their business. I am not sure that many businesses would try and cheat their customers out of a tag.
I would have rather drew a tag in the drawing but I am very happy to have a chance in the left over...
Also fr the top tags (the ones that are 80/20 resident NR split) they are doing the next person in line method. If the tag is not currently an 80/20 tag then it gets dumped on the list.
There are some real gems on the list at least I have a chance now and those tags are not wasted.
Also at some point the state has to draw a line and not hold anymore drawings. The gems on the list have been returned for various reasons. Just the way it goes.
Reminds me of the powerball. feel good dream even if it is a sense of false hope...
There are some gems on the list.
coelker said it best
I remember camping out at DOW to be 1st or 2nd in line
I remember standing in long lines waiting and hoping the tag I wanted was still available
Then I remember going in and drawing a number out of a bucket to see what place you were in line
I also remember dashing from one license sales agent to another to see if their machine was working
This is... by far... better than what I have experienced in the past 25+ years
I rarely play the 'leftover game' anymore. If I dont draw in the first two draws, I have made other plans
I agree, it is much better than what they have done in the past. Great that someone is getting a shot at those tags!
Some people would complain if they gave out a Cabelas gift card to every unsuccessful hunter.
Maybe it would be fairer to give the leftover tags to BGF and let them auction or raffle them off and keep most of the proceeds? (tongue firmly planted in cheek..)
In unrelated news I got a job at Walmart.. I start Aug 2nd Tuesday at 8:30am I'll be working the DOW license system... unfortunately at 9:01am I'll be handing in my resignation to go scout elk in Unit 61.
Good luck to everyone in line.
I'm glad they are being sold. I'm not sure how consistent the percentage of returned tags are but from an administrative standpoint, it seems like it would be easier to just increase the number available initially by the same percentage, expecting that some being turned in will bring it down close to the target number. Then the tags go to applicants and preference points are taken out of the pool when issued.
Robert, I'll be first in line at that Wal Mart. Looks like you, me, and Drew are headed to 61!
Glunt, the CPW does something similar with LO vouchers. They build-in a buffer, knowing not all will be used.
I love it, hilarious! In unrelated news I got a job at Walmart.. I start Aug 2nd Tuesday at 8:30am I'll be working the DOW license system... unfortunately at 9:01am I'll be handing in my resignation to go scout elk in Unit 61.
I was wondering about the same idea that Glunt had, but from a different perspective. In theory, reissuing all the returned licenses means that all the original license quota gets used, and could result in a slightly higher harvest, assuming success rates stay the same. Will this result in license numbers being adjusted down a little in the future if the populations decrease?
Also, as Glunt said, increasing the number of licenses slightly to account for returned tags would help point creep by awarding a few more licenses to applicants with points in the first draw.
Either way, I like what they are doing this year as compared to the past.
The DOW gets more money doing it this way, as they are likely getting 2 tag fees for all returned licenses instead of one. Its all about the revenue.
Yeah, with vendors all over the state and the Division Offices, your best bet is being in a small community and being first in line.
Online sales do not work on tags until midnight on Tuesday- so if you want to get a tag you need to be with a vendor someplace.
"WOW! A whole bunch of entitled whiners here"
Why is it that when someone doesn't agree with someone's elses point of view they try and diminish that point of view by calling them whiners. ANYONE with a different opinion could be called a whiner by the people who prefer the status quo. IMO better to just discuss your point of view and let the readers decide.
"Also fr the top tags (the ones that are 80/20 resident NR split) they are doing the next person in line method. If the tag is not currently an 80/20 tag then it gets dumped on the list."
Not true! These 80/20 tags are the ONLY ones I am referring to. Example: Unit 74 early rifle timberline hunt. Currently an 80/20 tag and 1 of those tags will be sold first come/first served on Tuesday morning. These 80/20 tags are the ones I feel should be put on the call list. For the rest of the leftovers, it is fine the way it is.
As txhunter mentioned, the only licenses being reissued manually to the next person in line are for the hybrid draw hunt codes. It probably would have been better for them to set a lower bar, such as all 80/20 hunt codes.
As someone mentioned, CPW averages over 9,000 license refunds and over 800 points restorations each year. The loss of revenue through refunds is approximately $1.8 million annually. That was the only impetus for changing the regulation. It had nothing to do with being "fair" or reducing preference point creep.
The DOW is NOT likely getting 2 tag fees for all returned licenses. They would only be getting 2 tag fees for the higher preference point required tags since the original owner would forfeit their money to keep their preference points. I bet 90% of the tags on the list were returned for a full refund minus the admin fee.
Regardless of whether or not this system is the right one, I suggest everyone wait until about 9:30 before attempting to get any of these tags. I will volunteer to go through the process right at 9:00 and report back here with a recap of what to expect.
I'm coming back here at 10 AM on Monday with a bowl of popcorn to see what a Charlie Foxtrot this turns out to be! Ha!
There's going to be a few lucky guys out there for sure. If the CO DOW really wanted to make some bucks they'd raffle those returned high demand tags. Everybody throw $10 in the pot for a crack at unit 61, 76, etc. That's how my state rolls and they roll in it, to the tune of nearly $100k this year and that's just for leftover COW tags!
MILITARY PREFERENCE: Any active duty member of the United States Armed Forces stationed at any military facility in Colorado and actively deployed outside the United States, or any active duty member of the United States Armed Forces who is a Colorado resident and is deployed outside the United States, shall be allowed preference for the purchase of leftover licenses.
How will this affect the high demand leftover tags?
I would say none, the list didn't come out until the 27th it says they have to be deployed outside the U.S. there letter wont' get there in time. Also when I called the guy at the DOW told me no tags would come off the list until Tuesday moring
Got my wall tent, stove, sleeping bag, cot, lantern, Zodi Camp shower, cooler full of beer and mountain house's. I'm heading down to the CPW on Broadway now. Hopefully they'll let me use the bathroom. Gonna be first in line for Tuesday's mayhem. See you guys there. Stop by the 14'x16' Davis tent for a beer.
Anyone else hunting Unit 61 elk on a leftover tag this year?
Wonder why tags are so hard to get...just add a few extra thousand on the phone by this post alone...
yep and add in monstermuleys and rokslide and a dozen other forums talking about it
Whaaa????
Nobody gonna just on those 76 tags?
The only smart thing Colorado has ever done.
Im about 2 hours from a license agent and it's a little mom and pop shop in the middle of nowhere. I'm thinking about making the trip. Obviously the premium tags are going to still be a long shot. I've never went for a leftover tag before. I see quite a few 3-5 point tags in there for archery, muzzy, and 1rst rifle. Do you think a guy would have a reasonable chance at one of these if he were first in line at 9:00? I really don't want to waste a vacation day driving out there but if it were decent chance I'd probably do it.
Also how does it work? Do you enter one hunt code at a time until you get one or do they take say 5 choices and if any are available you would get one? If that were the case I might put in one of the premium tags for a first or second choice.
I would not use a day of vacation trying for a premium tag. An extreme long shot at best. You might pick up one of the secondary tags, but still odds are not good unless there are plenty of tags left over. As a NR, if I were to try, I would probably try and call on my lunch hour and try online at midnight if that fails. BUT, I have never done this either, so just speculating based on the interest this has generated on many websites.
I think I know the answer to this question, but I've never dealt with leftover tags in any way so I want to make sure. If a guy is lucky enough to get any tag that normally requires points, as a leftover it is considered the same as an OTC and that person does not lose his points. If someone could please confirm this I would appreciate it and join the hoards looking for one of the hard to get tags. Thanks and anyone who wants to come call for me in 61 or 76 is welcome.
U don't lose y points for leftover tags
I wonder how they handle the mail in forms? This is from the website in regard to mail in apps.
- For the best chance of being issued a license, please ensure that your request form and payment are delivered to CPW by Tuesday, August 2.
They open them based own when it was post marked but it coulodnt be post marked before july 27. I thought about this but decided against it as I figured all the vendors would hit the button at 9;00 am
Lines have been busy since I started trying at 8:30......
Anyone make it through on the phone yet?
No luck on getting through on the phone. who knows how many people they have processing calls, could be a hundred could be 5.
Gabe
I finally am in the queue, so at least I made it through the busy signal...
Yeah I did too finally made it through the fast busy at 9:07am at 9:32am the call just disconnected... *Slow clap*.
Guys the left over system is the same as it always has been. I remember times in College when we were in line with 200+ people and back then all the leftovers were cow tags.
Not many people complained last year about the left over process. But all the sudden the stakes are raised and the system is broken?
Everyone one of knew how the system was going to work. We knew what tags were on the list, we knew our relative odds, we knew the date and time, etc. All we did not control is our luck.
Why is the left over system suddenly broken? Just because 1 really damn lucky guy got a 76 tag? That same guy had the exact same odds all of you complaining had to get the tag.
If anything this is how all draws should be done. level playing field no preference and play odds.
I agree with coelker. I think it's great that someone got some coveted tags without using any points. In the past these turn ins weren't even available. I was in pretty early, but didn't get the 61, or 76 tag, but there are 11 guys out there that scored big. Congratulations. I managed to get an either sex archery deer tag so now I can hunt a buck at the same time I'm hunting my OTC elk. This wasn't an elite tag, but you needed 1 point to guarantee it, so I get to add a little fun to my hunt that I wouldn't have normally. I don't have a problem with the point system, but this adds some more opportunity with no risk of losing points. Congrats again to all that got a tag.
Coelker - I think most are pissed because it took over an hour to process 3 people - 30 minutes for the 1st guy. There is still 75+ tags for the unit I want but at that rate I would wait in line until 6pm tonight to get my tag.
Destroyer the entire system is linked and when the system slows for one person it slows for all. I had my tag back in 6 minutes. But the next person in line was there for 20 minutes.
Also first in line means first in line. So I try for a tag, no luck so then I try for the next, etc. Sometimes it is the machine, sometimes it is the person. My buddy got booted from the machine for a weird issue but it is part of life. Every single system will have flaws. We all different opinions on how it should be and usually those opinions are based on what is best for me. When we go on that method, best for me is the worse case for someone else.
Just be thanks ful you had a shot at a tag. I hope you have good luck and get the tag. I know that the one deer tag near here had 56 tags for sale and they were gone in under 30 minutes.
I will admit I am very lucky, but there were definitely guys that were even more lucky (CMBULLDOG) and there were guys a lot less lucky.
I believe that the issues with vendors can be fixed etc.
I think folks are ok with the first come, first serve system. The problem is when the first served isn't the first that came. If the door opens late, an agent takes care of someone who got there after you first or your call gets dropped, it doesn't feel like a level playing field.
None of this is a big deal when buying undersubscribed tags. Anyone had the option to draw them in the regular draw. When you throw in a bunch of oversubscribed and high demand tags, people will naturally be less happy when the system has hiccups.
DOW Headquarters handed out numbered bracelets at 7:30 this morning to those who had been waiting in line for hours. My nephew was 30th in line his new number was 125, so first come first serve did not take place everywhere. If the system is fair everyone gets a shot but when employees put themselves or their friends ahead and the DOW jumbles the line the playing field is no longer level!
I was with Kadbow at the small shop. Got there at 6 and was first in line. Several others show up and we have a nice chat while waiting. A guy shows up at 8:45 and the owner tells us that he gets to go first. At 9:00 he tries for two tags and gets none. I try for a 4 point pronghorn tag with 10 tags available and get "sold out". The system favors the owners and friends of businesses with license terminals.
Jimscol,
I am almost certain that doing as the owner did he violated the law. He can not show any favoritism at all when issuing an item on behalf of the government. I would get a list of people who witnessed the issue and bring it up. There are laws in this area, maybe not directly when it comes to licenses, but there has to be laws about government commerce.
For example I can not let white people cut in front of others with food stamps etc.
I would also blast this owner and let everyone know how crooked and dishonest they are. Post the business name all over the place. I would have video recording the damn thing....
I checked very clearly with the store owner and he said no one except those in line.... He had 5 employees in the store and they were all there for support and not a single issue other than machine lag that seemed to be a system wide issue.
I had a friend at Cabelas in Junction they did the same thing, no one but those in line one employee was in line and he had to use his vacation to sit in line where he could have been inside working.
I will agree that the dishonest owners are bad and should feel the wrath of everyone as they screwed you out of the chance of a lifetime.
Same happened to me as Jim, I was there at 4:14 this morning. Fly shop opens at 6:00 and they have a list for everyone to sign up on in the order. I'm first, my name is number one on top of the list. At 8:50 they call my name and I come forward. Employee says, "You are Todd?" "Looks like you are first today, well actually second, because John here gets to go first." John is a co-worker that opened the shop doors at 6:00, but didn't put his name on the list ahead of me nor even tried.
We have a short discussion and the answer was - well that is a perk for being an employee, we could have opened at 9:30 today, then what would you have done?
He tries to input his data twice, screws it up twice, gets nothing but consumes time. Then moves on to me and I scratch my elk choices off the list and move to pronghorn hoping there is less demand and get my tag.
What if.....
The deal is the shop sells thousands of fishing licenses each year. They owner wasn't there. The employees were in on it, and only one hunts and takes the lead position. They won't take their ability to sell away, and frankly that wouldn't be good for fisherman in Colorado if they did. He didn't get a tag, so nothing was issued by that vendor. Unless the CPW is motivated to audit attempted transactions by location and name, which they won't because they won't want to know the truth, the corruptnes will continue.
And the truth is the employee is right. If a shop owner is motivated, they just open at 9:30, let there buddies in and out the back at 9:00 and no one is the wiser.
It sucks, and is a reflection on our society as a whole, greed trumps morals in today's world. Sad...
Just heard a rumor that at the main DOW a Game warden cut in line and said he was 2nd when the guy with wrist band 2 stood there and watched him print out a license. If its true he should loose his job! This WAS NOT a level playing field!
Guys get the proof. Please tell us the Fly SHop!
I am sorry but it is crap. If this is really happening get the photo get the names and get the proof.
If the shop wants to be that way then let your community know and work hard to shut that business down. Hell I would love to have the fly shop name so that I can personally contact the owner and let them know.
It is cheating. We can fix this issue. It will just take a little organization and some work.
Angler's Covey, Colorado Springs, CO
Employee John, not sure of his last name submitted for three elk choices at 9:00 am. They can audit the system via CID number I would suspect, and then get an employee list from the fly shop. It will match up.
The problem is it only screws the first guy or two guys in line. After that everyone else is in a holding pattern anyway.
I will write a letter to the Diretor and to the members of the Wildlife Commission outlining my experience, with the details. I have a witness to the shop being opened, the list with my name first, his second, and then of course the CPW system information if they are motivated to go get it.
Follow Wyoming's leftover policy; the system opens at 9:00 for online and retail point of sale machines at the same time.
Coelker, this has been happening for 20 years! I remember stories from people way older than me tell of when you HAD to go to the DOW office and it was crap! It was a sh$t show then and It's a Sh$t show now! You seem to be the only one on here defending it. Many people have given you examples and yet you still say it was all good! I myself was not there but have been on the phone with several friends who were and all confirm it was BS!
Sorry to hear of the cheating guys. I was very lucky and went to a small fly shop. There were only 4 of us, including the owner and we all agreed on the order based on what tags we wanted. I was the only one trying for a premium tag and they let me go first. The owner screwed up our first attempt and a couple minutes later when I tried again it was already gone. I got a lesser deer tag and the other three got cow tags. I'm disappointed that a data input glitch cost me my chance, but I'm still glad these tags were made available. good hunting everyone.
This shady stuff is going to get worse next year. There is about a dozen out of state vendors like in TN, PA, WY, UT. I'm betting by next year there will be dozens more.
BTW i'm up to 232 dials trying on the phone.
Well I picked up a unit 55 archery tag elk. I too tried the premier tags but had this one as a backup. Now just gotta figure out some info on 55! I don't know much about it other than its high! Big unit lots of public
I was at the Denver CPW this morning. I got there at 7:00 and at 8:30 I was drawn a number 25 spot. I thought 25 would be good but the line moved slow and everything I was wanting for myself and the kids were gone by 9:20. There was an individual that slept there over night and ended up leaving when he got a high draw number. It's not first come first served in Denver but I believe it needs to be.
There was a CPWD employee in uniform right after the draw and then they were one of the first few in line to buy the leftover but now out of uniform. It looked suspicious but I believe it was legit. Not sure what they were trying to hide as I know many of the CPWD hunt.
I did like the fact that the list was refreshed every few minutes so you could see on your phone just what tags were left.
I will try next year but not in Denver.
Some things never change.
It's really quite humorous to read about this new "phenomenon" of long lines, people buying multiple tags at once, anticipation and broken dreams when in fact this situation is decades old.
For those that didn't get one of the 'premo' tags, there is saying for you.
"You can't miss what you never had"
If you guys have suggestions to improve the process you'd like to submit to me by email, I will share them with the statewide sportsmans roundtable. We meet theis Saturday in Poncha Springs.
In my opinion, the roundtable is the perfect venue to drive these types of issues to CPW and the commisssion. We may have a commissioner or two in attendance.
My email is [email protected]
Remember guys, this is not your only shot. There will be tags getting returned today and later this week that will show up on the list next Monday at 3 PM, and next Tuesday morning, we do this all over again :-) And the following Tuesday, and the...........
Yea I think it should be online for everyone at the opening moment. This eliminates all the lines, ppl fighting, etc etc. I just don't see any reason the department would want all this crazy mess at their offices. So why not just put it online like WY and whoever gets it gets it. I mean everything else is bought online and they encourage u to buy y license online
ohio, read my last post. New tags come in daily that are returned. I can see their point there. Where do you stop. They have already had a drawing where you can put 4 choices, then they have a leftover drawing before we even get here.
And there will be a new batch every Tuesday until we finish with all the seasons
Ok so what happens when you have internet failure... Then what would you want? Sorry but too many people online all at once will crash the system no doubt about it. The reason why they do 12 the night after is to avoid a major surge of use and shutting down the system.
No matter what system there will be some who get screwed. The system for left overs has been the same for 15 years now. But it is only this year when you are all complaining. And only because there was a tag you wanted. Where was the complaints last year? Year before?
Here is how it is handled after today:
NOTE: ??After August 2, 2016, the following reissue process will be used:?
•The Reissue Preview list will be published on the website every Monday, at 3 p.m. Hunt codes on the Reissue Preview list will be available for purchase the next day, Tuesday, at 9 a.m.
•Each Tuesday at 9 a.m. licenses for hunt codes that were on the Reissue Preview list become available for sale and appear on the designated leftover list.
•The Reissue Preview list will be cleared after sales begin and repopulate the following Monday.
Tags are supposed to be returned 30 days prior to start of the season. Archery west of 1-25 is less than 30 days away. I would think shots at archery west of I-25 is over, but I am not grand puhbah of licensing.
I like the system. People should have called ahead or checked exactly how the system would work at your chosen location. There was mention in the forums last week maybe longer ago that the big offices usually draw numbers to establish order so sitting in line does not gain anything. I spoke with 4 different businesses. Scouted them for my best gut feeling. My number one choice already had people in line and knowing that it was first or nothing I went to my number 2 choice.
The crap with the cutting lines or letting a person skip in is not OK at all.
Steve Grasshopper.
That is a nice gesture but this isn't anything new. The Roundtable should have heard these concerns long before now.
The ONLY reason it's an issue now is there are some very valuable tags available. In which weren't before.
The system should not crash because people are trying to log in.....seriously we can put people in outer space, we sure as hell can figure out a computer system. Here in WI everything goes on sale at the same time online, in stores, call in. That's true first come first serve. That's how it should be.
I don't know why you couldn't stagger the release to ease line issues.
Sales of bull and buck tags start at 9am, cows and does the next day - or whatever.
At least that way the line isn't getting bogged down by someone who wants a PLO cow tag with hundreds of them available.
Online, one tag at a time, charge a $5 per application, you raise money while distributing tags without causing a cluster and unfair competition. I am sure the DOW has some smart people that work for them that can figure out a system instead of reverting back to the old wait in line! Deer one day, elk another, lope another
"And only because there was a tag you wanted. Where was the complaints last year? Year before? "
There were no 80/20 tags before. This is uncharted terratory
I seriously don't see how it would be that hard to draw say 15 alternates in the regular draw if a tag is turned in the number one would get a call if he declines it goes to number two alternate. that way its people who are normally putting in for those units not the shop owners because they are gonnna do theirs first. it would solve the re-issue problem
Tdiesel, Its a decent idea, but I think the issue comes down to contacting the alternates. So lets say they do call you and you don't answer, how long do they have to wait to call the next guy? The next guy? Apply that to however many tags get turned back and you would be looking at days,months perhaps of paying someone to call applicants non stop and try and accurately track it.
I believe they are doing a call system with some of the premium tags that way, but I would be curious to know how they are handling the issue of how long the person has to respond, when they call the next guy,etc.
I agree the current system definitely isn't "fair" and will always have corruption but as someone mentioned, I think its only a big deal this year because of the "semi-premium" tags that are available. Perhaps in coming years they will amend the call system to include more units or units that take above 8 points to draw for example.
I called almost 50 times starting at 0900 and never got through. Gave up 40 min.later and the outfitter called me and said they had sold out in his units anyway.
A step in the right direction would be you have to check the Leftover Draw box to be eligible for the first round of Leftover Sales. Already in place on the application.
It's not rocket science. No offense to rocket scientists. :)
I remember a time when there were no preference points, you only had to apply for "antlerless" tags, and "antlerless" elk tags were akin to gold. There were no leftover licenses, one never really knew how many tags they issued and certainly not how many people applied and a 330 bull was one shot in mid-afternoon... Most tags were bought within the last week of the season at the local sporting goods store or army surplus shop, along with maybe a box of shells and a new orange hat...I'm not saying it was better then, or worse. Just different.
Or just set up your own POS machine...reading this does anyone see where letting a buddy cut to the front of the line is not allowed?
http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Shop/AppsLicenses/LicenseAgents/LicenseAgentManual.pdf#search=pos%20rules
