Contributors to this thread:
I've just returned from my yearly bow hunting trip in Montana in search of elk. I was lucky enough to call a 7x6 into 25 yards. Unfortunately it happened so quickly I held 30. Elk was broad side it was last light and I shot got a pass through found arrow and no blood. Was unsuccessful in finding him. Good news is they have since seen him again rutting. My question is when I found my arrow the front 2/3 was completely clean and rear 1/3 was covered in what looked like blood. Since it was getting dark I wasn't able to follow my arrow where would shot placement be with blood on the arrow like this?
Just wondering the appearance of the blood on the arrow...dark, or bright red? I'm assuming the blood was on the "half" with the fletching from your description...not exactly sure what you are calling "front and back"?
Best of Luck, Jeff
You shot high so more than likely you hit above the spine.
What kind of setup were you using? 5 yards... Especially at 25-30, is negligible. I don't think that was the difference in you killing that elk. Sounds like you shot through muscle.
Blood was more of the bright red color wasn't dark. Blood was on the fletching end of the arrow. My setup up is a Hoyt Vector turbo with Easton axis N-Fused arrows and G5 strikers.
"No Man's Land" just below the spine. If you'd hit just above it, you'd have known it.
""No Man's Land" just below the spine."
Not again!
What color are your arrows? Do you have arrow wraps on the back?
I only ask these questions as I've noticed on my camo arrows it's sometimes hard to see blood on the camo colored half. Typically the back half is made up of a logo and I add arrow wraps and blood is much easier to see on this half of the arrow.
Just saying there's a chance blood might be on the whole arrow just easier to see on parts. You can clean it off and see what comes off on a wet rag.
If indeed only the back half of the arrow has blood, and there's none on the front, I have no clue how this might happen.
The answer is: Who knows? I'm not surprised that the rear portion of your arrow held more blood/fluid/etc., as I believe this is fairly common. However, there is probably some blood on the whole thing as bigeasy suggests. I don't know if it is any indicator of where shot placement actually was, but maybe. If you are shooting a modern compound bow, the difference in yardage you mention really had MINIMAL effect on where your arrow landed.
No such thing as "No Man's Land", or the "void" as some like to call it, unless the guy above is just referring to a high lung shot. This assumes you hit in the front portion of the body cavity.
Hard to tell for sure this late in the game, but it looks like it could be muscle blood.
This is a pass-thru on big arteries for comparison. Pretty apparent even on the black shaft.
Best of Luck, Jeff
With no idea of where your arrow hit from sight and only a little bit of blood it's darn near impossible for someone to tell you from information given where you hit him. If we think it looks like "muscle blood" and you don't know where the arrow went it could be a neck shot, leg shot, backstraps, hams, etc you get the idea.
It's one of those crappy situations that just sucks and you'll never really know. Unless if you really want to know you can go back and see if you can find the bull and study him for signs of a wound. Knowing how hard that would be to do, I'm thinking you're just going to have to let it go.
Definitely a brisket shot.;) Naybe someone will kill him and they will let you know where you hit.
25 yards, held for 30. I'd have to agree with HDE and Ziek with "no man's land". That close range you'd know if you gut shot him so more than likely you were in fact high. Sorry!
"Not again!"
Shed some light?
There isn't much of a no mans land, a friend shot one super high last year just below the spine (hit the spine) and it went down within 100 yards. He hit the vertebral artery
I've hit that artery before as well, they go down fairly quick.
If you don't hit enough lung as in high, tippy top of the lung, then you're in the "no man's land".
Most of the time, a good hit is the matter of seconds and inches...
(Hint: for the serious ones in the room, note the quotation marks around no man's land).
HDE, I believe he is referring to "no man's land" being "discussed" at length. There is a large amount of evidence that one cannot shoot below the spine and hit a "void" but it is possible to shoot above the spine but below the top of the back line in the animal and not make a lethal hit.
the hit was not off that much due to the range estimation issue.
Yup, look at at the anatomy, below the spine there is not a no mans land. Actually the spine dips down quite a bit and most hits are above the spine. Shawn
There is no void between the spine and the lungs which some refer to no mans land. And there is no debate just fact
Above spine= backstrap = muscle hit.
I ain't saying one way or the other about " no man's land " , but the first antelope I ever hit with an arrow was high on the body and under the spine. I watched him for two hours through binos looking to see some signs of weakness. There were none. My son and his guide watched him rut for the better part of the next day. He had two little thin lines of blood running down each side for about 8 or 9 inches. I'm sure he lived. The shot was perfect horizontally if it had been about a foot lower I'da et him !
"Above spine= backstrap = muscle hit."
And bone. Sometimes hitting them there can spine shock them and make them either drop to the ground or run off goofy.
Either way, you'd know it wasn't behind the shoulder.
There is no such thing as a void between the spine and lungs but my brother has pictures and is living proof that a deer hit high in the lungs can live and rut. He killed the deer he hit with an arrow tipped with a wacum during muzzle loader season. The arrow was still inside broken and the lungs had healed as did the hole some 6 to 8 weeks later.
Some if not most of these high LUNG hits just below the spine the animal will survive.
I like elkmtngear's thoughts. These things happen fast, and can "appear" (note the quotes) to be a "good hit".
Brisket hits are similar.
Not to derail the thread, but I do find the "no man's land" "Void" threads humorous because I always wonder what hunter that has previously field dressed an animal can go tell someone that an animal has an air pocket lol. There's organs, muscle, and bone. That's it.
That's why, if used properly, it is in quotes. Anyone who's been at it long enough knows it doesn't really exist and describes what should've been a fatal hit but wasn't quite there.
Caribou have an air pocket though to help them swim better... ;)
Once again here is the famous cross-section of a deer showing that there is no "void" or "no man's land". The brownish stuff is the lungs, the red meat above that is the loins/backstraps and the white dot is the spinal cord in the center of the spine.
This photo shows how long the ridges are on the top of the spine and they're even longer on an elk. Because the spinal cord is actually quite a distance below the top of the back (almost 1/3 of the way) and with how much room there is between the top of the back/hide and the top of the spine you can see how it would be possible to shoot above the spine and without a thorough understanding of anatomy think that you actually shot below the spine.
You don't hit the vertabrae with a backstrap shot, but you do hit bone. That could (wish I could underline "could") cause a shock to the spine and cause an animal to do something abnormal in it's escape. Not many arrows can punch through it easily either.
Once again, the no man's land thing is a hit in organ tissue, no one is trying to refute it. It is the term given to a shot that otherwise should be fatal and isn't. If that is not the case, then please explain to thousands of bowhunters what happen(s) when they make a shot and others witness and say "that's a dead [whatever]" and doesn't die.
If it makes people feel better, call it "short man's land" because the shot comes up short of what it should've done...
Meat hit looks like to me. Smeared blood should have showed you along with hair colors and fat content usually.
There is no void in animals a lot of hits get misdiagnosed a lot of times.
Thanks for are the input and responses. Got good news from the crew that they have since seen this bull out chasing cows again(probably) the best news I have heard in a while. I know things happen but dang does something like this drag a man down.
Nice to have some closure, Justin.
Makes it a little better, but still sucks...unfortunately, I do know the feeling.
Best of Luck, Jeff
HDE is sounds like you have a new definition of "No Man's Land" that some of us haven't heard before.
In the past the terms "void" and "no man's land" have been used to describe a non-existent mythological air pocket between the top of the lungs and the bottom of the spine.
The photo I posted proves that there is no air pocket and in fact the tops of the lungs actually are above the bottom of the spine along the sides of the spine.
I would describe the shot you are referring to as a marginal high-lung hit rather than a "no man's land" hit but it's a free country and you're free to use whatever definition you want. Just be aware that others might think you are implying that there is a "void" or airspace above the lungs.
It is possible to hit vertebrae with a backstrap shot depending on the shot angle but I agree that often backstrap shots only hit the bone ridges that protrude upward from the tops of the vertebrae. I agree that the shot can also shock the spine and cause the animal to go down temporarily and shooting through both backstraps and the spine ridge bones is a very dense area and might not result in complete penetration.
hoyt-6190, glad to hear he's still out there doing his thing.
Cheesehead, I understand the implication and what others may think. Too bad for them. I do know that there is no "void", and that theory has been put to rest long ago. But, the phrase still floats around and it means that nothing important was hit good enough to kill the critter.
I figured most people were savvy enough to understand the phrase and what it really means, I guess not. Some peole just have too much time on their hands to get all twisted up about it I guess.
Tongue in cheek comments are a dangerous thing to wield on Bowsite...
GotBowAz,
Do you or your brother have any photos that you can share? I have heard of high lung hit animals suriviving before. I was hoping that you could share some pictures.....
GotBowAz,
Do you or your brother have any photos that you can share? I have heard of high lung hit animals suriviving before. I was hoping that you could share some pictures.....
Based upon the above photo of the inside of an elk and this photo of where I just shot my Roosevelt Elk, how far did he go and how long did he live?
A high hit deer can live quite a while. Even one hit in the center of the lungs can go a lot further than you would think. I watched my brother shoot a doe from a ground blind at about 25 yards. It was with about 18-20 other deer and ran just like a lung hit , went down within 100 yards. After laying there for a while a few of the deer from the scattered group went over to it and kept nudging it until it got up and ran some more, then bedded down. They repeated this until they went back into the thicket.
Since it was dark, we had snow cover waited til morning to track it down. The deer traveled nearly 1000 yards after a double lung hit. 1/3 way up the body cavity. Broadhead was still sharp after complete pass through too. Yeah it bedded down but the others kept nagging it to get up. Unfortunately the coyotes were also watching and took a good portion of the hams before we found it around sun-up.
I recall an article by Chuck Adams talking about a deer with a hit talking about just one lung hit and it traveled for 1-2 miles.
We also recovered a deer that was shot above the spine. Big hole with a Zwickey or Bear head. Tracked it all day, kept getting up, trailed by other hunters (Camp Ripley)til we caught up to it and finished it off with a lung shot. That was about 2 mile trek too.
And one last story, deer shot at 8 yds, double lung ran 200 yds downhill to the river crossed it, and died someplace on the other side, about 1/2 mile away. Crows, eagles found it before we did almost a week later.
However these are rare, most of the deer, elk , bear, etc. shot in lungs heart, liver, etc. tip over or crash at a dead run within 80-150 yds. Its been 43 years, pretty sure I have close to 50 deer under my belt now.
Medicineman, sorry I went out of town for a long weekend.
I have one picture, my brother is horrible at taking photos unless I ask him to. You can see the arrow shaft is visibly though the tops of both lungs. the BH stopped on the off side between meat and hide.
This buck was alive and well chasing doe's before my brother shot it again with his muzzle loader 6 weeks later. The holes had healed shut, the lungs had healed too. Quartering away shot from a tree stand .
