adding weight to insert?
Equipment
I'm switching arrows to Carbon Express pile drivers and am wondering if there is a way to add weight to the point end of the shaft, either through heavier insert or a more desirable method would be some way of adding different amounts of weight even after factory insert has been installed? The shafts are 350 Pile driver hunter. thanks
You could add brass inserts for the weight. If you are looking to increase arrow weight it's not a bad option. Good luck
DJ
I've done a few things. I've taken inserts and smashed up lead fishing weights and loaded them into inserts. Can push that insert in the back end of the arrow and up to the front.
I like Goldtip arrows. They have little weight modules that you can push in and screw into the insert. Very customizable.
I'll second brass inserts. The ones I use for my Axis shafts are 75gr, or 50gr if you snap off the end.
I have never understood why today people still talk about adding heavery inserts or adding lead when they want more weight up front with all the broad head selections we have today just get a heavier broad head .
Brass insert. A .243 bullet fits nicely inside most 5/16th shafts. Heavy broadhead. You are going to noticeably weaken the arrow when you add weight to the front of the shaft.
ACB, Many times ones favorite B Head only goes to 125 Gr.....thus the need to add addl weight rather than switching B heads...
Mark
would the weights you screw into inserts work on my carbon express shafts?
Mark is correct, if you love a certain head then adding brass or even steel inserts ups the weight. I shoot 175 grain broadhead from my compound and 225 from my recurves, so I add a 50 grain brass insert to get my 225 grains on my recurve arrows. Scooby
You can use 8/32 set screws if your inserts are threaded all the way through. Use different lengths to get the weight you want. Screw into the back of the insert through the nock end of the shaft using a long hex head tool you can buy on Lancaster Archery. I use this method to fine tune arrows for my traditional bows. Lancaster also sells Gold Tip and other insert weights along with the tools to install and these will work just as well. See my link below or simply go to the Lancaster web page and search for point weights. The Gold Tip tool can be found when you go into the Gold Tip point weight page.
Seems compound shooting, I find somewhere between 150 And 175gr provides the most consistent accuracy out to say 60 -70yards...beyond that in practice situations, I see the arrow dropping a bit faster....fortunately or unfortunately, when I'm"off" i tend to miss up/down....
It's always fun to test and tune....
Mark
Are the weight of set screws consistent? How much do they weigh, say a 1"?
can someone explain why I would want to add extra weight to the front of my arrows?
thanks
Better flight, better penetration. EFOC, extreme front of center. It's as controversial as fixed vs. mechanical. Do a search, check out findings of Dr. Ashby, decide for yourself! Not just for trad gear anymore!
can someone explain why I would want to add extra weight to the front of my arrows? thanks ^ Better flight, less wind drift, more penetration, quieter bow.
way cheaper to buy weighted inserts than to buy new broadheads.
By shooting a bigger broadhead most likely you are shooting a stronger head with a larger cutting dia.
Lots of bad advise so far on this thread, and some good advise.
My advise is to follow Tilzbow's advise. It's the best answer to your question so far. Lancaster Archery has what you are looking for. If you call their toll free number, they will even talk you through exactly what you need.
To answer the question about why to add weight up front: The only scientific answer to that question is "personal preference" . Not one person has yet to prove that EFCO improves anything but added weight to the front of your arrow. Lots and Lots of theories and speculation, but so far, no proof.
We do know that added weight/mass will improve penetration to a point, but exactly where in the shaft that extra weight is added cannot be isolated enough in testing to prove that it's the EFCO that aids the penetration, or just the added weight in general.
There you have it, clear as mud.
Buck Watcher states 4 reasons that are dead on the money. Xman, "personal preference" by the way is not a scientific reason. Too many guys are shooting "light" arrows that lack the spine strength especially when we are talking about bigger game such as elk or moose. Arrow speed is not the most important aspect that contributes to kinetic energy.
DJ
That was the whole point. There is NO scientific reason to add only POINT weight.
well its better to have the weight in the front than the back.
The weight must be added so that the balance point remains front of center. Speaking scientifically.
Lancaster also has stainless steel inserts that add a few grains, I forget, 10 or 15 over aluminum. I don't use them for added weight up front as I already shoot 125 broadheads, but have noticed a good deal more durability, less distortion on hard hits..... seems fewer bent/broken ferrules too.
And all completely anecdotal.... =D
I think what x-man is saying is that a 400 gr. arrow will preform the same, weather you have 10% or 20% FOC. FOC is a given, I don't think he is advocating Rear of center balance.
Adding weight to increase penetration is a bell shape curve . Like everything else . Where you need to be on that curve depends on the animal you are hunting . Shooting fast flat arrows has killed many more animals for me than slow arching arrows ever did . Granted I hunt white tails most of the time .
Straight Shooter wrote, "Arrow speed is not the most important aspect that contributes to kinetic energy."
Speed is absolutely the most important factor that contributes to kinetic energy and that's not debatable. Speed/velocity is squared in the formula for KE while weight/mass is not. Momentum is a different deal but let's please not get into this debate. AGAIN.
The only reason I see to add weight to the front of the arrow is for tuning. FOC is way over rated?
I'm shooting deep six FMJ's with HIT inserts. I put two inserts in each arrow to add a little weight and increase the FOC. Total arrow weight with my .280 spined shafts is 507 grains with the extra insert and 100 grain BH's.
"FOC is way over rated? " No, I don't think so. Some is required..... in the range of 10-15% for higher end compound bows will see their best arrow flight.
Much more than that in higher performance compound bows and you start running into spine issues, arrow weight issues..... many issues. Some likely won't matter at the ranges many are limited to. Beyond that.... not so much.....
EFOC in some trad bow cases may or may not help, that is up to the person shooting the bow, trial, and likely lots of error......
Over rated in performance compound bows..... extremely so.....
Brass inserts have truly changed the game. No more need to be held back on your broad head selection due to weight concerns. Any old 100 gr. will do. I have been running the Easton HPs in an ACC 390 and they are the best arrow combo I have ever shot.
In my opinion FOC is not overrated. I think FOC leads to increased accuracy as well as arrows that can cut thru wind better. At least that has been my experience. Take a look at some of the pro archery guys? Their arrows are big time in the heavy side FOC wise
I don't think FOC is overrated but I think EFOC is extremely overrated for compounds. I do think my setups shoot better with more weight up front but I think as long as you have 8% FOC you are fine. 15% is better IMHO but for the average guy shooting whitetails you simply need clean arrow flight and that can be achieved with minimal FOC.
Overrated might not be the right term, some FOC is mandatory. Shoot any arrow without a point and you'll see some wild flight. That said it's definitely over analyzed and over thought. With a few exceptions a guy can take nearly any arrow and screw on a 100 or 125 grain point and it'll work for any N. America application as long as its the right spine and the bow is well tuned.
"Take a look at some of the pro archery guys? Their arrows are big time in the heavy side FOC wise"
The key word in that statement is "some". [None] of the pro shooters I shoot with would fall into the EFOC category.
The Olympic style archers have a large FOC, but they have a unique setup. their arrows are stiffer spined in the center of the shaft (X10's are barrel shaped), and light weight. And they shoot recurves.
Although the recurves guys set ups are different, a compound shooters arrow still goes thru paradox. Even the big time arrow makers have realized the benefits of a higher FOC thus the new shafts with built in FOC. Sorry but there is proof that high FOC helps in shooting both compounds and recurves. Scooby
Zero need for paradox, period. It is a by-product. I need no paradox in my arrows to achieve arrow flight. The more paradox you have, the more energy is lost.
I am still waiting for the "proof".
The whole idea behind the performance compound is working toward the elimination of paradox, not "controlling" it as with trad gear. That's why cams need to be timed, level nock travel, mechanical release (even the D loop) fall away rest, etc. etc..... and shoot a shaft with a stiff enough spine.
What is the objective for wanting to add weight? A heavier arrow? Heavier arrows do increase penetration, durability, quieter bow, etc. They also reduce speed and put more arch in your archery. If you are looking for better flight..... to me it means you are having flight issues currently. If you already have an acceptable amount of FOC then I would look into what exactly is causing the flight issues you are trying to correct with more FOC. You could in fact be compounding your flight issues adding too much weight up front.
EFOC.... E for Extreme..... you can't just use your current correctly spined shaft and screw a bunch of weight on to it. I know a good many folks who were marginal spine create issues just going from a 100 grain to 125 grain heads. The more weight up front the stiffer the spine needed to control it, reduce the paradox. Normally the stiffer spined shafts are heavier. Now your overall arrow is getting heavier yet..... and that heavier shaft reduced your FOC a bit. etc. etc.
FOC (moderate) is good for modern compound rigs. EFOC for a performance compound is pretty much a solution looking for a problem where none exists.
Watch some slow motion video, you would have to shoot a spine that is ridiculously high. A 25# compound will still cause a .300 spine carbon to flex quite a bit. Scooby
This is very interesting and I'm pl aying close attention as I am going to build the perfect 450 gr.arrow 28 inch draw weight 55-60 lbs.I will say this xman is very knowledgeable about this stuff and I'm glad he chimed in
I use 100 grain broadheads on everything simply because that is how I started and what I've used forever. I use the 50 grain inserts up front of my FMJ's and my carbon express Mayhem 350's. I have been able to get better penetration and easy tuning bows with .330 to .350 spined shafts with these 50 gr inserts. My FOC is around 13% - 15%
love the combo
100 yards
100 yards
Lewis- I just built a sweet shooting arrow! Goldtip kinetic Pierce cut short to 26 inch. I have the Goldtip outsert (25 grains I believe ) with 40 grain weight module. The ballistic collar and a 100 grain point. Steered by 4 small vanes. Weighs in the 450 range and shoots great! I have 27" draw. Shooting a Hoyt bow at 70 lbs
"Watch some slow motion video, you would have to shoot a spine that is ridiculously high. A 25# compound will still cause a .300 spine carbon to flex quite a bit. Scooby"
Come on over and I'll let you watch me shoot my arrows through paper (bare shaft) at any distance from 1' to 10 yards. Perfect bullet hole. If there were any flex, it would show up in the tear. I'm shooting 340's at 54#, 100 grain tip.
If paradox existed on modern, well tuned compounds to the extent claimed by some and similarly to trad bows and finger shot compounds I can't imagine how a drop away rest with a release would work as well as it does.
I'd like to see the video of an arrow bending the same on modern set up as those slowmo videos of arrows launched from recurves and longbows.
Another thing, if an arrow companies marketing of FOC being something special is "proof" then there's not much left to say.....
Does this mean anything?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QTkl7yNtw2I
Yes, it proves it you're willing to accept the fact the tune and flight of the arrow wasn't factored in nor proved to be consistent between arrows that you're willing to accept FOC as proof that one difference was the reason for the result. Other than that it proves nothing. There are other problems with this test but that one alone is enough to discount it and not debate further.
It proves that people will believe what they want to believe, despite the science and facts.
Anything over 15% is overkill
Thanks Ermine for the info
A sharp cut on contact broadhead is the best way to increase penetration.
Victory Arrow with a stainless steel insert and a 125 or a fmj with the victory insert and a 125 fly great with great penetration.
Daisey BBs are 5.5 gr each , pull nock off , put BBs in shaft tube and cut nock in half between nock dia. and string part of nock. Push tube dia of nock down tube all the way to the insert with gun cleaning rod and put new nock on . Stays in place and will not come loose.
