I need to have arrows that weights more than 800 grains total. Do any of you have suggestions? 30" arrows. I like the the Grizzly Stik- Monarch 200 grain broad heads, has anyone used these or the German Kinetics? I can use a weighted insert if necessary. My bow will be set at 70-72 lbs
Thanks,
Scar.
Some info in the above link
I have some full metal jacket shafts that weigh 17.7 grains per inch, I think they are what I'm going to use
Congrats on winning the hunt.
Gene
I was looking at those and the Griz Stik arrows, but the arrows don't get very good reviews. un-uniform weights and bad spine... I have never even seen them inperson, so I cant comment.
God Bless,
Scar.
God Bless,
Scar.
What was wrong with the Ashby head?
Thanks,
Scar.
Pm appreciated and replied to.
Scar.
It is a bit easier to work up a carbon arrow to over 800 grains with my longbow than with your compound at 70+ pounds mostly because of spine issues - you will have a tough time with most arrows because you won't be able to get them stiff enough to use a lot of weight up front (250-300 grains). I was also able to build up some Carbon Express arrows over 800 that I actually like better than the Grizzly Sticks.
The Grizzly Sticks are pretty good and they can help you out with a few test arrows to work up with. I have a set of them built up that come in at 860 grains. They are expensive, though. For what you are doing, they might be the best bet to get you a set of arrows worked out for that hunt. Probably worth your time to give them a call. BTW, if you are running right helical, I have 6 of their broadheads that I have never used.
Another broadhead to look at is the Cutthroat from Rocky Mountain Specialty gear. I have had very good results with them.
Good Luck!
Good Luck !! I'm sure you will have a great hunt
Those look really nice! do you either of you hunt with them? That might be dumb question, but you never know:)
My personal preference ...
German Kinetics 210 grain = a bh that stood the test of time ... and still a favorite with many African ph's for the biggest of game ...
Easton DG FMJ .250 17.7GPI = thin diameter = the smooth alu outer "glides" through animals when wet with body fluid = low friction = of course this is my subjective view ... lol
Ashby bh = many stories re breakage when bone is struck
Cheers, Eugene
I shot a bison years ago before many of these big broadheads were very available. It was even tough to find the old Grizzly broadheads. I was using a 57# longbow and set up a Carbon Express 250 with a weight tube inserted and a Magnus 125 grain broadhead on a 125 grain steel insert. That was just what I could get to fly perfectly off that bow for a heavy arrow at the time. Can't remember the total arrow weight but seem to remember it was around 700 grains. Shot was about 30 yards. Busted one rib on entry and 2 on exit and the arrow was about 20 yards in the snow on the other side of the bull. Another Guy that was out there with a 70# compound and 3-blade broadheads shot his bison 3 times and never got a pass-thru on any of them.
An Asian buffalo is a bigger animal with bigger bones. I was considering shooting one when I was hunting in Argentina two years ago and had the Grizzly Sticks worked up for a 60 pound longbow. Problem was that I got my arrows and broadheads right before the hunt and did not pay attention to the helical on the arrows matching the bevel on the broadheads. The broadheads were right bevel and the feathers were left helical. I decided not to shoot a buffalo on that hunt because of that.
Have done a lot of broadhead/arrow testing on hogs and one thing we noticed was that if the bevel on the broadhead was not matched to the helical on the feathers, it hurt penetration.
You can work up Grizzly Broadheads with inserts to match about any point weight above 150 grains, but it is tedious and will take a lot of time. Much easier to just figure out your arrow/point weight set up that will fly well and then just buy the broadheads that will work at that point weight.
Great suggestions and advice, keep it coming!
Scar
I have not used the cutthroat on game, however, I found it after breaking several tuffheads.
So naturally I do not recommend tuffheads, I think they are tempered too hard for the amount of material at the front of the head. Although I am not familiar with the Ashby head my guess is that they are very similar with a similar problem. They probably fair well out of traditional equipment, however, high energy compounds are a little much for them.
The broadhead is the most critical component of your system. It has to perform. The arrow is the delivery system for the broadhead and needs to work with it for maximum penetration.
God Bless,
Scar.
I am sure that there are several guys on the Bowsite that will have good experience with different compound bow arrows for big critters that will chime in and get Scar lined out on a good arrow to use over there!
What an awesome bull! Congratulations!!!
I am looking at a Matthews Monster Wave... A little heavy, but blazing fast!
I sent a VPA two blade through a bison and would recommend it. Also, the Cutthroat is a durable head as well. Can't go wrong with either of these broadheads.
You dont need a very heavy arrow. You need an arrow with sound structural integrity throughout that is coming out of the bow strait. There is a diminishing return for the very heavy arrows. But if your guide requires it, then keep him happy. So long as it tunes!
Heres a couple things to consider, If you are going to build a 800gr plus arrow and dont have a good understanding and experience tuning a heavy arrow, you could do more harm then good all the grs in the world wont help if that thing has horrible flight.
Dont bother with the double shaft approach, its a PITA and again does not give you much advantage.
Broadhead is key, Water Buff love crushing the expensive "big game" heads. Go with a VPA Broadhead, We'v prefered the 3blades for strength and penetration, but the 2 blades will work great as well. You just can not go wrong with them.
You can not go wrong with a GoldTip Kinetic KAOS. Tough as nails. you can get them in .200spine if you want to stick a heavy BH on the front. Also the KAOS comes with a "ballistic collar" which is just a Footing for the front of the arrow, and it is absolutely worth it. All round one of the best Big Game carbon shafts on the market. Super strong, Thin diameter,heavy spine, comes with a footing.
unless you are absolutely set on a lighter BH, dont bother with the heavy inserts, put the weight in the one piece BH. I.E go with a 250gr one piece BH and standard insert instead of a 150gr BH and a 100gr insert.
Do not miss Low and Back!
Good luck
So if 70lbs and 800 grain arrow is an overkill ... what do you recommend to your clients as the minimum setup for compound bows?
Also curious about your shot placement ... low & back ?
Cheers, Eugene
Interesting about 3-blade broadheads on buffalo. Have had very good results with the VPA 3 blades on elk, hogs and moose, but a buffalo is a lot tougher. The VPA 3 blades are probably up there as far as toughest 3-blades and would be interesting to try with a compound. Not sure I would shoot a 3-blade off a traditional bow though.
Greg: Yes, they are much softer on a frontal. Never had any tuning issues on heavy arrows either.
Iv used everything from 400grs to 1000+ (And shot more arrows into buff for extensive testing then a care to remember) And lv been able to get the heavy arrows to tune well, however Iv had a lot of folks bring a very heavy arrow set-up that is not tuned precisely and in those cases its hurt more then its helped. If it's flying great then it wont hurt and it's nice to have it on the heavy side for a first timer. These days with the nice stiff shafts and heavy one piece broadheads you can build a nice heavy arrow without all the Pain and unreliability of putting one shaft inside another, heavy inserts and the like.
On a different perspective. Myself and a few friends that have killed a lot of buffalo, can get the same performance in regards to strength (Arrow set-up integrity) and penetration from much lighter arrow + -500gr Arrows, and benefit from the advantages of a flatter somewhat more accurate set-up, and hence my saying "you don't need the heavy arrow" Nice having more than one way of skinning a cat, hey.
Scar, here's an old article I wrote on some Buff observations that you might find informative. Either way, consult Eugeneb, trust your guide, he is not likely to make a decision that is poor judgment for either of your sakes. https://adventurousbowhunter.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/from-the-field-water-buffalo-anatomy-shot-placement-part-1/
And your about to go hunt an amazing Big animal in some wild country, Enjoy !
Thanks for the response ... can I purchase some of these 500 grain arrows ... e.g. Scar can put them to the test? (at my expense of course ... will include another bull)
Cheers Eugene
My Mayhem arrows are over 500 grains. I will bring some along and we can test them out if you want. All in the name of science of course:)
God Bless,
Scar.
God Bless,
Scar.
Fully agree that a heavy arrow that is not flying perfectly will not penetrate very well - sometimes worse than an arrow weighing 1/2 as much with the same type of broadhead.
Could you please expand a little on your experience with 3-blade broadheads on buffalo? I like the concept, if you can get the penetration! Have had great results with the VPA 3-Blade broadheads from 150 up to 250 grains on different arrow setups. My standard elk/deer arrow is just under 500 grains with a 150 grain 3-Blade VPA. Not sure I would be comfortable shooting a buffalo or other really big, solid critter with a 3-blade.
Also, is VPA making single bevel 2-blade heads now? From your testing, do you see an advantage to a single bevel?
Thank you!
Treeline, Ill be happy to. Let me PM you so we dont take this thread off course.
Also, for others out there about to hunt Water buff. I highly recommend using your range finder on these big beasts, they are huge but SHORT and that really throws people on distance. They glide when they walk and if one takes a few step, it could have moved a lot further then you might guess. Dont risk it on a guess.
Eugene I hope you are gearing up for a great season, im envious. What backup rifle do to typically carry?
Dino: Thanks for your generous offer ... much appreciated ... let me know if there are cost involved.
Scar: Thanks ... "in the name of science" ... I will make additional animals available (at no cost) for you to test the various options. Please feel free (if it suits your diary) to extend your stay with a couple days if you so desire ... so we can do this properly. Feel free to bring whatever you desire for this "experiment", e.g. 3 blade VPA's if you like.
Andy,
Thanks for your input & generous offer re the arrows, much appreciated.
Perhaps some of my background pertaining to buff ... a bit more info than I normally give ... between 4 of us we estimate we connected with well over 100 buff over a number of years (I did not count them). I am an admirer of some of Dr Ashby's work ... believe in the usual attributes i.e. thin dia arrow, arrow bh combination should stay intact throughout impact, mech advantage of bh, perfect arrow flight, FOC, etc. We tune our own bows, have all the equipment necessary and am familiar the techniques to ensure perfect arrow flight.
We have arrowed buff with arrows ranging from 580-850 grains, bows ranging from 68-86lbs (I have also seen them arrowed by others e.g. 65lbs with 700 grain), IBO rated bows 320-350, draw lengths 28.5-32", different bh's ranging from 125-220 grains (adding different insert weights), ranges between 13-66 yards ... to make a long story short ... for personal use we settled on 800 - 840 grain total arrow weight which include around 300 grain upfront for consistent (as close to 100% as I can guarantee … lol) penetration to the vitals from all acceptable angles and shot distances (20-40 yards), unfortunately I cannot say the same for e.g. a 700 grain arrow.
The purpose of my minimum framework is to ensure a client traveling half-way across the globe, spending substantial money and time has the best odds of reaching the vitals with every arrow e.g. if the 1st shot is non-lethal ... we are tracking an animal that is aware of us and might not present ideal shot opportunities ... this is where the heavy arrow shines = when the going gets tough.
With the greatest of respect ... I am sceptical about this magical 500 grain arrow dealing with ribs when the bh "bites" into the bone i.e. not slipping off the rib and following the path of least resistance between the ribs. I am however open, keen and curious to see the results.
I prefer Scar to perform the testing and present his findings to the forum, so please correspond with him re the arrows and let me know if there are any cost.
Backup rifle for client hunts is a Sako Kodiak 375 H&H with Woodleigh solids either 300 or 350 grain.
Btw … the only passthru’s (could not find my arrows ... didn't look to hard though) that I can recall was with 210 grain GK bh’s (3 of them … admittedly I did not do an autopsy to check whether bone was encountered ... I suspect it slipped between the ribs)
Thanks & regards Eugene
ps: My comments exclude frontal shots ... buff are soft there and can be hit with lighter gear
Gentlemen, and especially Eugene, I can not begin to tell you how blessed I feel to have this opportunity and how much I appreciate all your comments and best wishes! What an incredible adventure this will be! I will do a full write up with video and pictures for this adventure. I will include an equipment list, what I had to purchase and why I purchased the items I chose. as far as the different arrows/ broadhead combos I will give my honest opinion of flight, penetration and durability.
Hopefully "Test Dummy" Doesn't become my new screen name after this. LOL
With all that being said, I will not drop below the 500 grain mark no matter what, and I believe 70lbs is a good minimum. that being said, I WILL NOT do anything that Eugene and I do not feel 100% comfortable with. THIS IS DANGEROUS GAME AFTER ALL AND NOT A WHITETAIL HUNT.
My bow will be tuned and my arrows will be flying perfectly. For my personal use, I will be shooting a Hoyt Carbon Spyder FX. It will be set at or around 73lbs. I am going to use the REAL Silver Flames from German Kinetics, I am leaning towards the 180 grain with a 75 grain HIT insert. That will put me at 235 grains up front. I will be using the FMJ DG 250 arrows and they will be 30". I will be happy to test out GK 200's , VPA's, Cutthroats etc.. if anyone wants to lend/ donate them to the cause. I do not think I would use a three blade, I believe enough research has been done to determine that 2 blades out perform three blades on heavy/ dangerous game. If you have an arrow broadhead combo that you want to have "TESTED" I would be happy to try them out... within reason. 500 grain minimum and 30 inch arrow. Heavy duty cut on contact head. NO EXPANDABLES! I can/ will return anything that is not lost or broken:) Hopefully that includes ME!!!
I will make sure that every arrow flies great out of my bow, if it doesn't fly great, it doesn't go... Period! I don't mind tweaking my bow a little to get the arrows flying true, but there are limits.
Please PM me not Eugene if you want to play along.
Thank you and I look forward to hearing from you.
God Bless,
Scar.
Have you seen those Grizz sticks? They are like logs...not my choice. The Ashby heads were brittle in the past but my guess is they have since changed the steel to a better formula. No reason to use those very expensive BH with VPA out there.
vid of mine is on Bowsite videos, 'Aust buff hunt'
I have watched your video about 4 times:) Good Stuff and congratulations! Interesting note about the VPA, (I do not have any personal experience with them...yet) I have been on multiple sites and talked to a lot of people and most of the people I spoke to said they were a super strong head, excellent construction and a complete pain in the rear to sharpen. a few went as far as to say they couldn't get them sharp at all. I am going to get a KME broadhead sharpener so I may order a pack and see if can get them sharp. If not, I will send them back.
Thanks,
Scar.
Scar.
Cannot find your video ... I assume it is posted under international?
Thanks, Eugene
Capra, any chance you could show pics of your broken Tuffheads? What were you doing with them to break them and did you contact Joe Furlong about getting them replaced?
I have never seen nor heard of a TuffHead breaking or bending on a shot into anything. bTW, the TuffHead is nothing like the Ashby. Totally different animal in every way.
Scar.
Sharpening the VPA 2 blades haven't been a problem for me. I put them on an arrow, or I have a 6" long section of arrow with insert, and strop them on the 'V' shaped chock sticks. Its easy bro....gets them popping sharp.
Test if you want....but those arrows in the 850gr range or a little more are the way to go. 1) They give you a whisper quiet bow [the camera on mine was right next to my bow when it went off....the sound from that bull walking in the leaves 15 yds away was louder than my bow] 2) These heavy arrows are slow....but they just don't stop in these animals for nuthin...it really opened my eyes to the advantages of arrow weight.
The only problems our group had was one guy shooting 560gr arrows. Pretty heavy right? Wrong.....he shot 2 bulls and couldn't get one inside the rib cage. The one bull he wounded stomped a mudhole in our assistant guide and if it weren't for the thick brush the bull was pounding him into.....the guy is lucky he only had a few broken bones. i did a story with pics here on it years ago.....
Trust me bro....go with the 800gr plus arrows!
Scar.
Guess this is where the "rubber meets the road" ...
Scar.
Really ? You reckon Andy being a VPA prostaffer has anything to do with it ? All prostaffers opinions carry very little weight when compensated to give said opinions.
IMO, 500 grains with any three blade head is ludicrous versus a considerably heavier arrow with a bombproof two blade. Of course, all else being equal, especially the structural integrity of the entire arrow setup.
I am very excited about having you and thanks again for volunteering to do the testing in unscripted hunting scenarios on some live buff, after which we will perform autopsies ... it's hard work, but someone's gotta do it ... in the name of science ... hopefully we can all gain from your videos, pics and report.
I will make sure you have a trip to remember for a long time ... it is beautiful our there!
Thanks & regards, Eugene
I do not know what to say, except that for me it would be irresponsible to recommend anything less than 800 grain (incl a strong 2 blade CoC) on buff for paying clients on their dream hunts.
Thanks & regards, Eugene
I am very excited and can't wait for next July, It all sounds like fun and it will be very interesting to see the results of the arrow/ broad-head tests. The testing is the least I can do:)
God Bless,
Scar.
Yes, it will be interesting ... as my hunting buddy told me last night
"... we have played this game before ..."
IMO Penetration is not an exact science ... the light gear might work today, but will not work tomorrow ... the only constant on these bovines are the super-heavy arrows with heavy duty 2-blade coc's.
There is also a difference between shooting a cow, young bull, old run down bull VS a mature big bodied bull in his prime early in the dry season. These bulls are built like tanks ... lol
Looking forward to it ...
All the best, Eugene
