Legal does not make it right.
Whitetail Deer
Great Iowa buck.
Great Iowa buck.
Well i guess I should give this some more thought.
Ill go first....
Yep, you're a jealous hater :)
JK. I dont know the whole story, but if someone wants to go hunt, legally, who am I to judge?
doctors notes for crossbows are given out like candy on halloween.
Many non-bowhunters do not realize that one of our goals is not just to kill what we are hunting for... among many other things we get out of doing it "our way", the conclusion of our hunt comes when it is simply over without a harvest or that we kill what we are hunting for with a bow.
I'm not familiar with the story, you want to elaborate "hater"? Lol
I saw a couple things at the ATA show this year, that I believe is going to increase the popularity of cross bows.
DJ
You're right, you don't know the whole story. Disabilities aren't necessarily life-long, so especially for a wrestler, it's not hard to understand he had an injury that qualified for a waiver. Not hard at all. So no, I don't share your opinion that this is just wrong.
Wrestlers injure shoulders all the time. Any clue on his actual condition during this event? Great buck, and I do understand the complaint there but I'd certainly like the entire story.
So what do you care if he used a crossbow? Are you really that jealous of this kid? This kid is going to make a fortune with that deer and good for him, he used a weapon that was legal and just leave it alone if you can't say something nice. How do you know he wouldn't have killed it with a compound? I hear guys calling trad guys snobby but wow, this wheel site is taking over that rep quick lol. Why does it bother you soooooooo much that this kid got lucky?
I know others who shoot a crossbow on a physicians certification. It has yet to affect me or how I hunt.
Lets change that title a bit:
Legal doesn't make it right for me.
I can go along with that. I can choose that something is not right for me even though it is legal, but I stop short of telling others it is not right for them. Especially when I don't have all the facts. Anyone who has played sports of any kind realizes that this could be legit. And then you have a choice: sit out a season or use a crossbow. He chose the later and I have zero problem with that.
I started in this bowhunting game in 1956. I have seen so much change you cannot imagine. Hell, compounds were going to be the demise of archery in the 70s & then RELEASES was for sure the fall & DID cause a HUGE split in competition (PAA fingers, recurves. I doubt most even know of this). So many things in hunting these days. Game cams, food plots, tree stands, bait, scent control, NAMING DEER, HIT LISTS (both jokes to me). Crossbows are & will be part of the sport. Like it or not, your/my way is not always "the" way. I hunted 20 years b/4 compounds, made the switch & now enjoy Longbow & compound at various times. I have never gun hunted biggame but I sure don't condemn those who enjoy that way of hunting. I congratulate them just like I congratulate someone for taking a small buck (ohhhh the sin of that today). OUR kind (hunters) are missing so much when it comes to hunting. Rules-manage the herd with Doe kills (I no longer shoot Does), let those younger Whitetail bucks grow (I do NOW but I killed many in the past). I let them go now because I have taken MANY Whitetails over the years. What others choose is their choice, not ours. All other biggame, a smaller horned animal may just get a shot from this old guy. IF it's legal, I'm ok with it. Focus on the "real" poacher if you want to do something constructive.
"If someone wants to go hunt, legally, who am I to judge?"
In this case, that's not necessarily the question. The question appears to be whether the "disability" permit was lawfully and appropriately obtained....
And at some point, Sportsmanship really ought to come into play here, shouldn't it???
The Clubs were organized to promote Manly Sport, under the rules of which no Unfair Advantage can be taken. So.... depending on a lot of details (about which I know nothing), that deer may stand as a state record.... but it may not qualify for "book" status.
If the kid was really hurt and needed to take a year off of Bowhunting to prevent a permanent injury (especially if that could cost him a scholarship) then Bully for him for taking an amazing animal.
And if there is anything about this animal or the manner in which it was taken that doesn't pass the sniff test, I hope that the P&Y and B&C governing bodies will decline to recognize it.
Seriously???? I guess this makes me something less than an ethical hunter....Someone needs a ladder to get off their high horse.
Well, if you are going to condemn crossbows, you have to pass a hypocrisy test. How many of the things we use have taken much of the hunt out of what we do and simply turned us into shooters. 1. treestands 2. popup ground blinds 3. trail cameras 4. online trail cameras x 10 5. rangefinders 6. baiting 7. auto drip scents stations Every year things get added to make it easier to kill animals but any compound hunter who condemns crossbow hunters should examine what his weapon really is in comparison to the crossbow.
I like Montana's rules.
So if trophy recognition is about honoring the animal, a unique specimin in it's population, how does the projectile by while it met it's demise matter. The deer is the same be it killed, by bullet, bolt, arrow, fender, or barbed wire fence. hunting is about the animal and not the human...................right?
GF: Just a heads up that P&Y Club Record Book does not accept any Crossbow kills. This deer could be entered into the B&C Record Book which accepts any weapon as well as pick-ups. C
It is interesting to see how the tolerance of Crossbows in Archery season has been incrementally more and more accepted in the last 10 years. Cross bow manufacturers did a good job marketing for sure.
I guess I had my panties in a wad this morning when I submitted this thread. I had been looking over some of Iowa's proposed legislation for this session.
Just not liking the crossbow industry trying to get into Iowa's archery season. I know it has been debated to death on here a million times.
Cracks me up when some hunters obsess over others hunting with a legal weapon of which they don't approve.
One very cranky, judgmental sometimes-poster even implied that it ruins his hunting experience knowing that somewhere a 12 year old kid might be using a crossbow.
If this young fella did everything by the rules in place for his state, good on him!
Why wouldn't a non-archer take up the crossbow? Seriously, they get to hunt during archery season with a weapon, while short range, requires almost no practice or skill to use. It's too late to close the door. Legislatures are not going to push xbows into the rifle season.
ahutter55 you say you've never gun hunted big game but I thought you shot a water buff with a gun?
Crossbows are selling huge up here but guys get sick of dragging them through our thick woods quick. Plus, they are very expensive. They will never take over up here except for open areas where someone has a tree stand over a pole of grain. With a 1 month baiting season, I don't see them taking hold. A lot of blown money.
I heard a rumor once....... now I didn't start the rumor.... just passing it along ya know.....
I've heard folks actually can.... and DO.... shoot animals with GUNS!
Jaquomo, I just literally laughed out loud… I can envision some bitter b*stard freezing in his treestand in November, mumbling to himself, cursing the mere existence of crossbows. Haha.
Guys need to get some perspective, the debate is old and tired. I’m of the opinion we should do what makes us happy and let go of our respective butthurt, myself included.
Dare I say, we got it pretty good right now.
Speaking of…I think I’ll cook up some backstrap for dinner.
Well, after 25 years of shooting stick bows, I've had 2 shoulder surgeries and have had to go to wheels. Does that make me less of a hunter? No more so than this young guy who took a buck of a lifetime with the weapon he's chosen.
If we can't all be "hunters", then pretty soon we won't be hunting anything.
TMBB
One other thing I forgot to add. You say it's not right because he used a crossbow? Well let me ask this, what weapon was invented and used first in history. Was it the crossbow or was it the compound bow? Why is the compound bow viewed as the norm when the crossbow was on the scene way before the compound ? I guess a traditional archer could take your title to this post and label it to every trophy ever shot with wheels, yes?
Good Lord, I wish my life was as uncomplicated as some here who actually have the time to get all hot and bothered about what kind of bow someone else wants to shoot!
As long as no one tells me what kind of bow I can shoot then I really don't care.
That's it all the "No crossbow" crowd need to protest this. After all there isn't enough protest going on already.
Congrats to the young man. It's a buck of a lifetime.
LB, and others that support this kid and others that just want to hunt...
Haters are just gonna hate! It must suck to be that self absorbed and Jealous!!!
I would shoot that thing with my compound bow, crossbow or a rifle in split second and you can kiss my butt if it bothers any of you!
Scar.
I was wondering which way this thread was going to go, I have to say I'm very happy to see most of the comments. Who are we to judge, we need to support hunters no matter what method they chose. Just my 2 cents.
DJ
So far I have killed deer with compounds, handguns, shotguns, muzzleloaders, rifles, and Ford trucks. All were dead and never communicated to me that they would have rather been killed another way. This crossbow/compound/recurve/longbow/firearm argument is just silly. Yes, this is Bowsite, and I will only post a rifle kill on here if it's a coyote, but to act like there are no other ethical methods is nuts !
I have absolutely no issue if someone wants to quit bowhunting and hunt with a gun or crossbow. As others have stated, dead is dead. I prefer to remain a bowhunter, and make bow kills.
I have no problem with the kid this thread was started about using a crossbow. Nor do I have a problem with anyone legally using one. But for the crowd that says we shouldn't care what weapon anyone uses. Where does it stop? Why not a landmine season? Why not let those that want use armed drones? Why should there be ANY challenge in hunting? Everything should be made as easy as possible, right?
It was taken legally why do you care?
I believe his point is...the more efficient we are at killing the allowable harvest, the shorter the seasons may become. Less opportunity is another way of saying it. Think beyond whitetails, many species are already on a limited drawing. Black bear, grizzly, elk, antlerless whitetail, mule deer, moose, sheep, turkey, and antelope to name a few.
Good for the kid!! I do agree though we have to be careful about what we allow. Look at the new so called airbow, everyone says that will never be allowed in archery season. Well 20 years ago a lot of us said that about crossbows. I also think it should be a bit harder to get a doctors note. It should have to be a permanent disability not just hurt for a month or so!! I believe it is pretty tough to get one in NY. In this case it is what it is and this young man did nothing wrong!! face it, he was honest because he may of very well said he killed it with his bow and no one would be the wiser. Scooby
So if he killed it with a longbow, recurve, or compound then this would not be a thread?
If he had a medical excuse so be it.
In my honest opinion so many bow hunters slam a crossbow hunter because they may kill a buck that they could have killed even if they don't hunt anywhere near each other!
In many states anyone can hunt with a crossbow, usually in the archery and gun season. In all these states you do not need a doctors excuse. The crossbow is replacing compounds as the archery season weapon of choice for young, middle age and old alike. Michigan and Wisconsin are two examples. I have no issue with it, just do not consider crossbow kills as bow kills. They are not according to the P&Y club, for whatever that is worth.
A few years ago I had a bi-cept tendon tear AFTER I already drew my CO elk tag.
I borrowed a crossbow from my neighbor and after applying for and being granted a special crossbow permit I went out after an elk - didn't get one, and after a few months my injury was healed and back to my wheel bow.
Would I do it again - damn straight I would.
I don't begrudge anyone hunting in any way that is legal.
Oh, and good for him!
Okay I'm not a crossbow guy but seriously there's something I don't get. Isn't the effective range of one of these things about the same as a compound? I know it's easier because it's not drawn in the moment (and I don't for the record agree with moving them into an archery season without permit due to disablement) but guys act like when someone makes a kill with one like it was a high fence hunt or something. The guy still 'hunted' to wishin compound bow range did he not???
The effective range of a modern, scoped crosscompound is out to 100 yards, at least. I have personally shot some of them and can attest to that. I have also seen traditional and compound guys shoot pretty accurately at longer distances, but I cannot. I will let you decide if they are the same, depends on your personal abilities. There have been threads on this forum where guys defend others for shooting animals at 100 yards with a compound, if they are capable and practice. Why would someone not defend a magnified scoped modern crosscompound shooter to do the same? The new crosscompounds are highly effective.
https://www.facebook.com/ravincrossbows
It's really hard to believe there are so many full grown little girls out there. You babies have officially ruined this site.
Missouri, WHO CARES???? Really, who cares???? If they have a permit due to an injury during the archery season, it's legal. end of story. I am not for X-bows allowed in the archery season as general rule, but with an injury and a permit... Go for it!
Scar.
Personally I could care less how one harvests game as long as it is legal. How about this for a slight topic deviation. Few years back I met a guy hunting in NM who had an archery deer tag and an archery elk tag, the 2 seasons coincide. He was amish and was using a crossbow, by appearance there were no physical disabilities and none were mentioned other than his religion/lifestyle/whathaveyou. He had already harvested his buck and was chasing elk. How is this legal? I do not recall if he was a resident or not, but not sure if it mattered.
Why have a problem with crossbows in the general archery season, for all hunters? Why does it matter, who really cares?
"Tis better to have hunted with legal weapon of choice... then to have never hunted at all" author unknown
well not really,I just made it up:×)
Right on the front page, it says crossbow state record. Not archery state record.
Lol, just here for the show anymore"
"...and get rid of the record books and most hunters would quit."
I don't believe that at all.
I think if you put many of today's hunters back 40 years or so and have them hunt where they MIGHT see ONE deer in several days or more of hunting then you may see a lot of them quit. The whole concept of "shooter" deer and multiple tags is a luxury that many hunters of today take for granted, but I understand that many of them don't know it being any other way. Us old farts definitely do.
Nick Munch-yes I did. I used the guides on my last couple hours of my last day.. I have never purchased a gun tag to hunt biggame with a gun (sometimes it covers both gun & bow). I went to a 4000 acre "ranch" to GET meat I had never had b/4. I tried, & tried but could never get a bow shot. I did evade 3 different charges though. I am glad someone keeps tabs on me so well.. Now, in 1990 I was on a REAL Caribou hunt in Quebec. I had taken 1 bull with my bow on our LAST hunting afternoon. The only day I had been in Caribou. As we waited in the morning on a little dock for our float plane THREE very large Bulls topped a hill less than 100 yds from where we were standing. My guide held up his rifle & said in his thick French, Jon, use my rifle, you can kill one very easy from here with it. I said, no thanks, I have one good bull with my bow. Yes NICK, I AM just a bowhunter. I have killed lots of small game with a gun though when I was a teen. Oh, I was very good with a rifle long ago but it was in the nam era. I paid for the one shot on that Water Buff & I knew what was about to happen when I fired that Elephant gun but the meat was worth it (my last thought when I squeezed the trigger was "your gonna get Scoped)... I ask the bowhunting elites & Gods to forgive me..
No one cares he shot it with a crossbow, they care he used a crossbow in archery season. We can solve this very easily. If you can't draw a bow, then you don't hunt "bow" season. Suck it up and hunt gun season. Or, if you can't draw a bow and want to hunt bow season, then you are permitted to use ANY shoulder fired weapon.
Woods Walker, what you describe about 40 years ago as far as deer sightings is what we up here have now. The big snows of 68-69-70 wiped out our herd and along with the coyotes moving in, it never came back. When I was young, deer season up here was a huge tourism draw. Now it is peanuts. Our tourism now is atvs and snowmobiles. There were over 100 snowmobiles at one time in the village today. I have not seen another hare hunter so far this season, but I am not complaining. With over 6 feet of snow in the woods, this is going to be a banner year for the snowmobiles, not good for the deer.
How about if you can't draw and hold a bow string with 0% let off with your fingers then you shouldn't hunt "bow" season? Sucking up works both ways.
Lol, polyester on parade!
I guess I have hunted long enough and killed enough to not give a damn how others go about filling their freezers. If it is killed legally, with a legally-sanctioned weapon, then good for you. If you get to the point at which you feel that others are ruining your chances to make a kill, then I think you need to sit back and re-evaluate why you are in the woods in the first place. Shoot what you want, how you want, and stop whining about what others are doing. If what they are doing affects you so much, you are out there for the wrong reason.
"...and get rid of the record books and most hunters would quit."
I don't believe that at all.
x2. If I recall less than 10% of bowhunters are even members of P&Y. IMO...... it should be MUCH MUCH higher.
"If what they are doing affects you so much, you are out there for the wrong reason."
You're sure about that?
Just since CO started offering a bonus archery cow tag, the drainage I used to hunt has suddenly gotten crowded, mostly with guys who seem to be doing some armed scouting ahead of first rifle season... they've only got the Cow tags, but of course if they were to get onto a good bull, well, that's nothing a quick run into town won't fix, is it?
It's not that they don't have a right to be there, just that they wouldn't be there at all without the freebie tags, and some of us do go out there for Solitude...
What's so wrong about that?
TD, I think the P&Y membership percentage is less than 1% of bowhunters but tough to measure because so many bowhunters also hunt with guns, and vice versa, and crossbow licenses count as "archery" licenses in most xbow-friendly states.
What we do know is that the average age of P&Y members was 45 just a few years ago. The Club told me last month that the average age this year is 50. So only old coots really care about all that nonsense anyway, right?
Many of you keep posting that crossbows are ok for those with physical limitations. I do not think most really disagree with that concept, especially the doctors. Do you know that in many states(and expanding) crossbows are legal for everyone during the archery and rifle seasons? Most new archery hunters do not even know how to shoot a hand drawn bow. Not in Montana yet, but as in Wyoming and Colorado they are likely to find their way there. Bowhunting is on the decline and crossbow hunting is growing by leaps and bounds, can we at least all agree on that? Great to see the interest on this thread.
Oh, and about the P&Y club and State organizations. I say for them to survive long term I bet they will eventually admit crossbows, just as they did compounds back in the day. It is kind of like the Dems with our Constitution, they want it to "evolve". What say you, should modern bowhunters and hunters evolve? Read RutNstrut's post above please. Nobody addressed his post and it is the most intelligent one on this thread.
One of the problems with the clubs and not just B.C. and P.Y (I speak from experience) is that new members and especially young members are treated as third rate citizens by a lot of the older more experienced members. it's sad, but it's true... I have watched younger guys walk up to a groups of older members in clubs to join the conversation and seek some knowledge and be completely ignored! And people wonder why most club memberships are declining so rapidly? it's because of the eliteist attitude and the good old boy mentality in a lot of these clubs... Because "he" hasn't paid his dues as a hunter or whatever. I have dealt with it in archery clubs, Shutzhund and in the bird dog world! If you want younger guys to join, treat them as equals and with a little respect! JMO,
Scar.
It's a pretty simple concept, but tough to pull off. All you have to do is convince the majority that evolution and progress...as viewed BY the majority...should be halted.
It could apply to bowhunting, golf, fishing, navigation, guns and much more. The fact is there are people in every single one of these interest areas who advocate for halting technology and accusing it (and the users) of ruining the future of their chosen sport.
I think what is oftentimes missed in the equation is that we are killing animals that have seasons, restrictions and limits. If we "evolve" away from the factors that determined the hunting seasons and limits, there has to be changes elsewhere. If through tech advancements, recruitment etc we become more efficient at killing the allowable limits( harvest quotas), it is necessary to reduce opportunity elsewhere. Cougar hunting is a prime example, in many areas you call in register. When the area quota is met, the season closes. Limited drawings, another prime example.
Bottom line....if hunters become more efficient with their weapons, recruitment and other technology, seasons will become shorter, lumped together, based on drawings, APR's etc. Game animal targets and harvests are not unlimited, they all have quotas. RutNStrut was getting there with his post?
Bottom line, the lucky young man killed a buck of a lifetime legally! Not sure why hunters can't stick together for the same common goal. Congrats young man.
"If we "evolve" away from the factors that determined the hunting seasons and limits, there has to be changes elsewhere."
I absolutely agree with this statement.
My previous comment has to do with whether 'evolution'...as it applies to our sport...can or should be halted. Who decides....the majority? Those with the most experience? It's mostly rhetorical because it's not possible to halt this evolution at all, though we do have some ability to direct it and maybe slow it some. Maybe.
That is why those who say bowhunting is in rapid decline are correct. That is, if one defines bowhunting as using a hand drawn device, similar to the P&Y definition. The culture, and in most cases the reasons we hunt today, are not the same as they were when the bow seasons were formed. No going back, it is over. I am glad I got to enjoy bowhunting as it was meant to be, and still successfully "bowhunt" with a stickbow over 50 years later. I am fine if this generation gives up bowhunting for the crossbow, things eventually evolve to their end.
Kevin, as the natural progression of sociodemographic trends continue, hunting methods and attitudes will evolve no matter what some bitter old gaffers (not you) think now, in 2017.
As I've posted before, in 15-20 years when overall hunter numbers drop by 30% or more, this sort of discussion will seem pretty stupid. Crossbow hunting may become celebrated and even financially incented to control suburban whitetail populations that are likely to spiral out of control unless a crash happens.
You are correct Joq. That is why bowhunting is over.
I like Scar Finga's post. I coach both Cross country and Track and Field. I chose a young assistant that is one of my former athletes. After guiding my program for 43 years, I know I don't have many years left and want to infuse young blood and ideas. In March we have our rules interpretation meetings and all us old coaches welcome and encourage new coaches. Our sport can't survive if new blood doesn't come in. Our local snowmobile club up here is all oldtimers. It is a dying club as egos and burnout take its toll.
How many of you whiners have ever carried a crossbow? Tried to shoot out of tree with one? Lugged it through the brush for miles? If people choose them more and more, that is fine by me because they aren't going to hunt the places I hunt.
Back on topic, The OP did well and deserves all the acknowledgement for doing so. God Bless
I wouldn't say (in my words) that bowhunting is over or in decline, even using the narrowest definition of 'bowhunting'. I would say bowhunting (the sport) is changing and has been doing that since it became accepted a long time ago. I happen to hunt with a longbow or recurve and can easily recall when it was hard to find another guy doing it in my area. I can't prove it but I think there are probably more guys hunting today with longbows and recurves than 30 years ago. There is a larger knowledge base for those who eschew a wheelbow or crossbow, and it's easier than ever (yes I said it...EASIER) to become proficient with any weapon currently included in archery seasons across America.
.
I have more game available than 40 years ago nationally. More opportunities to bowhunt than 40 years ago in terms of days afield and species available. More weapon choices...even if I narrow it down to my own preferences of longbows and recurves. More acceptance and clout within state game agencies which realize the enormous impact of bowhunting on their state in many ways. More gear devoted mainly to bowhunters. I can find my bowhunting peers more easily than ever. And in my case, I still haven't had another hunter walk under my stand in over 30 years...in a state of 12 million people.
I think bowhunting is doing pretty good and has a promising future even if I don't like or agree with how some of it is done. There is probably a 30-something crossbow guy out there who thinks I'm bad for bowhunting because I shoot an inefficient bow of short range and can't hit a Dixie cup past 25 yards. He might wish I'd just stay out of the woods so he can feel better about bowhunting's future.
For some reason, "bowhunters" (including crossbow shooters) are dropping out pretty rapidly after age 45 now. We can only hope this young fella will keep it up with hand-drawn bows, crossbows, guns, whatever, but he's right at the age when youth hunters give it up entirely in favor of other interests and obligations.
Jaq...I tend to see that trend as being something (again) related to evolution. Baby Boomers are much more likely to identify and remain with core beliefs & interests throughout their lives...versus subsequent generations such as Millennials who seem to move from one interest to another...often rather diverse interests. I think it's atypical to see a guy born in the '70s or '80s who stays devoted to one core activity such as bowhunting. The world truly has a lot to offer.
The other thing to consider is the average physical condition of males greater than 45 years of age. Obesity is rampant and bowhunters are not an exempt sub-category. A 50 year old guy with kids leaving home, debt to repay, a growing gut and menopausal wife just might not find the motivation to go kick butt up a tree or mountainside. ;-)
Excellent observations guys.
"Do you know that in many states(and expanding) crossbows are legal for everyone during the archery and rifle seasons? Most new archery hunters do not even know how to shoot a hand drawn bow. Not in Montana yet, but as in Wyoming and Colorado they are likely to find their way there. "
Crossbows have been legal for everyone in Colorado for as long as I can remember, and I haven't yet seen any signs of them taking over the season. But maybe that's because they are restricted to the rifle seasons.... where they belong.
There's nothing wrong with using a "lesser" weapon in whatever season you wish, but when a season is created as a set-aside or as an either-or proposition, then the rules have to mean something.... or they mean nothing....
Millennials are also programmed to accept instant results and instant gratification/reward. This expectation is almost directly antithetical to a bowhunting lifestyle.
Last night I was reading the 200 page results of a comprehensive study on this very topic. Game departments and hunting organizations are flailing around trying to find solutions, and almost none are working. The General conclusion was that socio-economic and societal pressures on young people are now too powerful to reverse the slide in future hunter participation.
Strike me dead for saying this because I used to be strongly anti-crossbow, but if crossbows can somehow get and keep some young people hunting and help some old guys keep hunting, I'm all for it.
Kevin, as for trad participation, according to the most recent ATA study (which is badly flawed) only a tiny sliver of bowhunters use trad gear, and it isn't growing. The numbers of younger guys who are trying it aren't quite offsetting the numbers of dinosaurs fading out.
In our local big club with @ 500 families as members, our Wednesday night outdoor 3-D leagues used to have about 35% trad shooters 25 years ago. Some nights more, to the point where we had to split into "flights" for trad awards. Now on a good night it's a handful. Maybe it's just a "western" thing. And most of them are long in the tooth; many are trad "shooters" who no longer hunt. Crossbows aren't allowed in CO archery seasons so that's not a factor.
So if he killed it with a longbow, recurve, or compound then this would not be a thread?
If he had a medical excuse so be it.
In my honest opinion so many bow hunters slam a crossbow hunter because they may kill a buck that they could have killed even if they don't hunt anywhere near each other!
Like I have said. Where do we draw the line? What weapon do we finally say no to in archery season just because some want to make it easier. If you really look at it, this is why things have went down the shitter in general. People use to take pride in having to work for something, even their hobbies. Not so much anymore.
"What weapon do we finally say no to in archery season just because some want to make it easier."
What weapon? IMO that would be anything that propels an arrow with force that doesn't come from energy stored in bowed limbs. For example air/springs/gunpowder/nuclear device, or ANYTHING that can go "BOOM" from an explosion.
If it propels an arrow tipped with a blade that kills via shock through blood loss from energy stored in drawn limbs, then it's BOW and whichever one you decide to use I wish you all the best. Shoot straight!
Now I've got better things to do, like grab my Super Kodiak, some judos and go out and shoot some weed heads in my back field. It's 45 degrees and sunny here today!
Agree with Rut. I do want to respond to the assertion that opportunity is as good as ever. In some cases that may be, but I have family in the Midwest. Wisconsin archery tags were good for a deer or a bear, now it is a drawing and residents draw a black bear tag about once every seven years. Bobcat, otter, fisher were available OTC with limits, now those are a drawing. Fish bag limits are much more restricted, some Wisconsin lakes do not even allow fishing except catch and release. Those same lakes had muskie size limits of 30 inches, then 32, then 36, then 40 and now catch and release. Not every lake, but some of the historical muskie chains. Maybe more fisherman and technology will solve the problem? Michigan bear now on a drawing. In the west look at cougar tags, as well as elk drawings. Same in Alaska, bears every four years in most areas, full curl rams etc etc etc.
It is true, if you have the money opportunity abounds. I do have the ability to hunt all over the world, but tell it to the every man hunter that licensing has not become more complex, more difficult to obtain, and in many cases limited availability hunts priced out of reach. I am not speaking of whitetails. Crossbows are not the only blame, but they probably are right up there with compounds as being the most significant advancement in archery killing methods ever. Do we really need an easier means to the kill, a more efficient route to meet harvest objectives? Hunting has become more restrictive for many years, unfortunately something more has to eventually give. Those with money can overcome it for awhile, good luck to the remainder.
Missouribreaks-well said.. Love Ws. too & been there TONS of times since 1958. Being old I can remember buying Non res tag for Ws. Deer, Bear & all small game with a bow for $10. Colorado, no draws, Non Res. Elk & Mule Deer $25. I have no idea how many trips I made out there over the years (over 30 for sure. Bear in Mn. could be hunted on a small game lic long ago & considered a nuisance animal.. Today, any hunter has to consider the cost of a tag a big portion of their expense.. This was one of those $25 Elk tags with a recurve..
Funny how fading memory distorts the past and makes it seem better than it was. In 1956 a NR CO elk tag cost $50. I have the 1956 regs in front of me. The average annual wage for men was $3,600. So it cost 1/72 of an annual pretax salary. This year a NR bull tag costs $644. The median annual wage for men over 35 is $50K. So its actually cheaper to hunt elk in CO today than it was in 1956.
Yeah, the good old days. I remember when we could get on a train in Kansas City with a couple rifles and a crate of ammunition and shoot off the rear platform at all the buffalo, pronghorn, elk and deer we wanted until we ran out of bullets. Didn't need a license in any of the states. If we ran out of ammo we could trade for a bow and some arrows (COC heads, of course) from an Indian along the way, fling some arrows, and feel really cool and superior to the other guys shooting guns.
Those were great times. Will never be the same. Hunting is ruined. Woe is me.
"if crossbows can somehow get and keep some young people hunting and help some old guys keep hunting, I'm all for it."
This is wisdom! All I would add is '...and help keep the sport of hunting alive in the future.'
Jaq, just for the record, nobody mentioned the actual cost of the tag. In most cases, that is still the biggest bargain on earth. Now, obtaining a tag and getting to the animal is becoming a different story. I have made ten trips to Alaska in the last three decades. It is not cheaper or easier today for a "non resident" to harvest a brown bear, interior griz, moose, sheep or goat.
Hunting is not coming to an end, it is evolving like the Dems Constitution. Bowhunting, as defined today by the P&Y, is in a steep decline. It will take another twenty years, but you will witness the bottom. Remember, I did not say hunting, I said bowhunting as defined by the P&Y club. I did not say it will end, but I will say that bowhunters (as defined by the P&Y) will become a small minority of all hunters. Archery seasons, if they continue as is , will largely be dominated by crossbows, not bowhunters .
When people ages 16-24 and over 55 continue to drop out of hunting and don't return, does it really matter what weapon they aren't using?
Edit: Razorhead and Ahunter mentioned the price of tags as a deterrent. Per the license prices I quoted above, how many young folks could afford licenses in 1956 at higher than today's inflation-adjusted prices? A CO youth deer license today is $13.50. The $7.50 resident deer license in 1956 would cost @ $85 in today's dollars.
I'm not in favor of crossbows in archery season in states with limited archery tags TODAY. In 15 years when there are 1/3 fewer hunters I'll be 78 and wishing I had it as good as you younger guys will have it. The crossbow argument now will seem as silly as the compound argument was in 1970. By then, if current trends continue, the average age of P&Y members will be over 60. Will it even be a relevant organization anymore?
I LOVE these discussions! Fun to watch some folks worry about paper airplanes when bombers are headed our way.
Edit 2: If crossbows do supplant vertical bows in some places as a weapon of choice, what will it really matter besides for nostalgia's sake? Does anyone pine for flintlocks besides the flintlock romanticists? Life goes on.
I still shake my head at how "the sky is falling" and sharp sticks are killing tooooo many animals... they are tooooo easy to pick up and kill things with.... nobody has to "suffer" for their sport like others (I) have had too... like walking 5 miles uphill to school... both ways....
I don't know whitetails or their states. But I do know in most western states archery kills are a drop in the bucket in comparison to firearms. No comparison. Last I looked.... firearms kicked archery, compound, x-bow, any form you want..... all around the block and up the street. The ultimate "anybody can kill stuff with just the bare minimum instruction". They not only are "legal" they were legal a very long time before any archery seasons came to be. And they are the VAST majority.
Yet "modern technology" .... x-bows or wheel bows... will be the ruination of hunting. For some guys, will the fact that somebody has chosen an "easier" tool really matter in your hunt? Really? You can't enjoy yourself knowing someone out there may be using something other than what you think they should use?
Good grief. " Get off my lawn!!!!" Go kill something......
This is a great thread.
Jaq, I predict the P&Y club as structured today, and bowhunting, as defined by the P&Y club, will no longer be relevant in 20 years. There simply will be too few currently defined P&Y bowhunters to aid the membership. Doubt I will be around to see it but until then I will remain a longtime supporter of Compton and plug along with my stickbow, just as I have done throughout the compound era. I have not been relevant since the last bowhunting change in the early 1970's. Not much will change for me other than there will be shorter hunting seasons, reduced availability of limited draw tags as weapons become more efficient, more species on a drawing, and who knows what will be allowed on public land. With a smile I will buy my way through it and go wherever there is opportunity. Whitetails do not much interest me anymore, have shot too many.
Good hunting to all, the sky is not falling. Bowhunting, as defined by the P&Y club is in rapid decline. Tough for me to imagine that I am the only deplorable recognizing this reality.
Some guys can rationalize anything. That is part of what is wrong with bowhunting today. No one embraces the challenge of bowhunting these days. Yeah, I know...I'm just another old timer yelling, "Hey kid...get off my lawn!"
Worse yet Ollie, many have disregard and lack of respect for the wildlife resource. Take the quickest and easiest means to a kill and trophy, then strut back to work and tell your secretary you were bowhunting, LOL.
I thought the issue with this kid and his kill was whether he obtained his Xbow permit legally or that he was carrying a valid Xbow permit. If he did, then congrats to him. If not then that is not a good thing.
Posts like this are embarrassing as a "Hunter" no matter what weapon you legally choose to hunt with. Nothing but a 100% Jealousy post.
Ahunter55, my already large respect for you has just been increased. Thank you.
After 24 surgeries, shoulder and hip issues last year I could no longer even begin to draw my bow. I ended up buying a crossbow. I hate the thing. I don't know if all of you have ever messed with one but there are a pain in the butt. I went bear hunting from a stand with it. If I needed a follow up shot the only way that would happen was for me to get on the ground cock it. I guess I could club something to death with it. If you can draw a bow to hunt with be very very grateful. This is not enjoyable for me at all.
Thats my only issue with it being used during archery season,It's got a scope,forearm,butt plate,trigger,or heck I could even use my AR lower. Not saying this is everyone that shoots one but I know of 2 or 3 guys that shoot them and they have no injuries they just wanted something quick and easy
Uh yeah, just like the guys who started shooting compounds when they came out 40 years ago, and that really "ruined" bowhunting, didn't it?
What are we complaining about today? The six free issues?
Somebody please put up a definition of 'right' so we all have some point of agreement from which to start.
Here ya go, Kevin...............hope it formats OK.
right
adjective 1. morally good, justified, or acceptable. "I hope we're doing the right thing" synonyms: just, fair, proper, good, upright, righteous, virtuous, moral, ethical, honorable, honest; lawful, legal "it wouldn't be right to do that"
2. true or correct as a fact. "I'm not sure I know the right answer" synonyms: correct, accurate, exact, precise; proper, valid, conventional, established, official, formal "Mr. Hubert had the right answer"
adverb 1. to the furthest or most complete extent or degree (used for emphasis). "the car spun right off the track" synonyms: completely, fully, totally, absolutely, utterly, thoroughly, quite "she was right at the limit of her patience"
2. correctly. "he had guessed right" synonyms: correctly, accurately, properly, precisely, aright, rightly, perfectly "I think I heard right"
noun 1. that which is morally correct, just, or honorable. "she doesn't understand the difference between right and wrong" synonyms: goodness, righteousness, virtue, integrity, rectitude, propriety, morality, truth, honesty, honor, justice, fairness, equity
2. a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way. "she had every right to be angry" synonyms: entitlement, prerogative, privilege, advantage, due, birthright, liberty, authority, power, license, permission, dispensation, leave, sanction, freedom; historicaldroit "you have the right to say no"
verb 1. restore to a normal or upright position. "we righted the capsized dinghy" synonyms: set upright, turn back over "the way to right a capsized dinghy"
exclamation informal 1. used to indicate one's agreement with a suggestion or to acknowledge a statement or order. "“Barry's here.” “Oh, right”"
I think the definition that applies here is adverb (1) above.........
'The thread spun right off the track'
The antithesis of verb 2 - this thread tipped over after the first post.
DL I have messed with a crossbow and they are the most uncomfortable weapon I have ever carried. And for people who think they are long range bows you have never heard the loud noise they make when fired. I don't care to use one again but their are some guys who don't bow hunt so I guess it's a way to hunt another season.
You guys are awesome. I mean that.
So using a one-off of the thread title combined with adjective 1:
"Legal does not make it morally good, justified, or acceptable."
'It' in this thread title pertains to the use of certain hunting implements in archery season. In essence the position is made that despite being legal, the use of certain hunting implements in archery seasons may not be 'morally good, justified or acceptable'.
So now the question is begged...who gets to decide those elusive things we supposedly can agree as being NOT morally good, justified or acceptable?
Only you can set your standards as to what is morally good and justifiable. To hell with the P&Y club, record books, and all that crap. What does the P&Y club know about what bowhunting should be? Besides, they evolved several times before to keep membership, just like Dems. They will have to again. With my stickbow, I answer to nobody.
Good luck everyone. Enjoy your crossbows, I will enjoy bowhunting.
It has to be someone from the Leatherwall...............
Or, maybe even the Ninth Circuit Court......................
Leatherwall is the "Ninth Circuit of Bowhunting". Bowsite Big Game Forums is the Supreme Court.
I answer to no one but my wife, CPW laws, and God when He's messaging, regardless of what weapon I choose.
I think it is totally unfair that this kid hunted in a state where there are such deer. I will never get the chance where I am. I am actually glad a younger person was out there hunting and doubly glad he got a trophy and it was broadcast. What disturbs me is while we argue that folks should hunt our way or not at all the anti crowd is voting for not at all. I really want to see the next generation see enough value in wildlife to want to preserve the habitat. Congratulations to the young hunter.
Boy I sure screwed this thread up good. I deleted my original post and the wheels have not only fallen off but caught on fire.
My beef is for the past two seasons the young fellow has obtained a doctor's note to claim disability and use a crossbow. All while being on a school wrestling team. Legal but not right in my opinion.
Scrappy, perhaps your last post gets this thread back on track along with the definition of "right". So are these the facts: 1. A young man got a Dr note for a shoulder injury which allows him to use a crossbow. 2. He then wrestled during those seasons he was "injured" enough for a Dr note.
I think the question isn't whether or not crossbows belong in bow season or if crossbows should be legal. Rather the question/issue appears to be this - is it "right" to get a Dr note 2 years in a row because you are too injured to draw a bow but you are healthy enough to wrestle? Seems like a legit question to me and good for discussion.
"...the question/issue appears to be this - is it 'right' to get a Dr note 2 years in a row because you are too injured to draw a bow but you are healthy enough to wrestle? "
Only his doc knows for sure, but it sure stinks from here.
The last bit of information changes things. Maybe it is time to start a new discussion. Last year cross bows became legal for folks above 50. When I bought my license the agent said if I was 50 I could use a crossbow. I told her I missed my chance as 50 came and went years ago. My choice and my rules. I choose my old compound.
Would be interesting to know:
1. How many Dr scripts for xbows are there in IA, just to get an idea of how easily they are obtained?
2. Was this kid's xbow obtained before or after the script was obtained?
Man, Some you guys seriously need to get a life or a puppy or something!
TEMPORARY disabilities shouldn't be permitted for crossbows,PERMANENT disabilities by all means.
It's all hunting & it's going to be the new "growing" sport. I mean how many Muzzle loaders use modern type projectiles & scopes? They said the same a out compounds in the 70s. The downfall of Archery, put them in the gun season. Same story, different day.
I hear the whining about inline muzzies....... compounds extending ranges (yeah.... like Hill and Bear and any of them never "extended their effective range") And yes, x-bows.
I remember when a 400 yard shot with a rifle was a heck of a shot. Now they are dialing in twice that and more. Exactly how do you want to "restrict" that? By what standards and measures?
You know what? Was a time when the 4 min mile was considered a wall NOBODY could break. Bannister finally did, became FAMOUS for it, his name still is famous. Now it's broken by high school kids. What technology led to the "ruin" of long distance running?
Mankind adapts and overcomes. They innovate to be better. They reach for that just out of reach. It's in his nature. For the most part.
We CHOOSE as bowhunters to restrict ourselves....... but still strive (for the most part) to do what within our boundaries to be..... better. Better at what we do. More successful. I don't think even the most staunch trad shooter would argue even their gear has gotten better, more efficient though both materials and design over the last 20 years. Others..... well, they really don't care. They want to hold on to those things.... unimproved.... That's fine. For THEM.
Until they try to demand the rest of the archery world heed what in reality is just their PERSONAL choice. Good luck with that. Or in translation.....
"Get off my lawn!!!"
Ok, I thought this would die by now but I guess not. Now, I have shot/hunted with a compound and didn't like it and went back to my traditional bows. But for those of you who are complaining,bitching,crying or whatever you want to call it about this kid, the second you picked up/switched to a compound bow you became this kid. The only differences are that you probably and most likely weren't the object of ridicule, jealousy or in some cases pure out and out hatred. The other difference is you didn't shoot a buck of 10 lifetimes and the reality is you probably never will. I have never seen a bigger group of babies in my life and if you don't want to get off your high horses I suggest you pick up a traditional bow and hunt with it for a full season and see how you do. Crossbows are LEGAL, and in most states they will become legal all season long, IL is going that way. So think back when you picked up a compound, and shot an animal, what you are saying about this kid and his xbow is exactly what you didn its your compound,, the only difference is the size of the deer. Get over it, find something else to bitch about and be happy for the kid. I don't trophy hunt, I shoot whatever walks by and if it happens to have antlers fine, if not doesn't matter. For me every deer I kill with one of my trad bows is a trophy. To many focus on antlers and when someone else kills a huge deer the fangs come out, reminds me of a bunch of school girls. The funny thing is that the complainers will probably go see that deer at one of the shows and be buddy buddy with the kid who shot it.
To me the biggest issue is that it appears that the medical permit to use a crossbow was fraudulent. And that makes the kill illegal in my eyes. If your shoulder is well enough to wrestle, it is well enough to shoot a hand-held bow. Too many cheaters out there who want to hunt the archery-only season, but are not willing to take the time and effort to learn to shoot a hand-held bow proficiently. This is exactly why many of us "old timers" opposed making exceptions for medical issues.
Ollie, you must be an amazing doctor if you can diagnose a shoulder injury over the internet.
Can you take a look at my left knee when you get time, and let me know what's going on?
FWIW, I sure hope you never have any medical issues that affect the way you like to hunt. Would be a shame if you had to quit hunting altogether rather than hunt with a compound or some other weapon. Your attitude is why many of us "old timers" are opposed to "old timers".
I'm not a hater, not jealous and not whining or crying...
I hunt with a compound and a longbow, my sons use compounds and my dad uses a crossbow and we all hunt together and have a great time. Crossbows are legal here in Missouri without any notes from a Dr, etc... I have no issues with people killing deer with a crossbow. Someone having a 190" + deer on their wall has NO impact on me and my life.
My issue and position is this - if the facts above are true and he indeed wrestled for 2 years while obtaining a Dr note for a medical permit to use a crossbow, that may be LEGAL by the letter of the law, but it sure doesn't make it RIGHT.
If he kills that deer in a state where hunting with a crossbow doesn't require a Dr. note, etc...then I have no issue with it and its a non story.
--Mitch
I am old enough to remember when bow seasons were for odd people hunting with longbows and recurves with wood arrows. No tree stands, baiting was illegal in my state and the muzzleloader season wasn't even thought of. When that came it was caplock and flinters. Technology made those seasons a distant memory. Just the way it is. Eventually it will morph into either one season or very reduced seasons. That has already happened in my state as weapons, blinds, tree stands, and baiting have increased success. You can't stop it so if you want to keep up and stay with trad bows or flinters, hunt smarter/harder, hunt deeper, and be willing to accept going home emptyhanded. Enjoy the hunt more and the kill less. Otherwise, give in to technology. Not happening with me.
It would appear either the doctor needs investigated for malpractice, or the coach for child endangerment. Should deer antlers and wrestling trophies be confiscated? Should Bowhunter Education be a mandatory part of a physician's curriculum?
.
Logically I would believe the physician isn't asked to determine which weapon is most appropriate...that is no job for a doctor who may know ZIP about bowhunting. The physician is simply asked to sign off on a patient's request to use a weapon which will produce less shoulder stress, and that's a no-brainer for most doctors who aren't sitting there evaluating the supposed ethics and politics of bowhunting ideologies. It's also a strong bet the physician knew nothing about the young man's wrestling endeavor; his/her decision may have well been made outside of any consideration of school sports.
The right versus wrong argument is purely subjective and opinion-driven...not absolute.
Kevin - I agree with your assessment of the Dr and the coach. I would hold neither of them guilty of anything. As far as we know they were both simply doing their respective jobs, completely independent of one another.
On the other hand, an individual who would go to a Dr to get a medical exemption while also wrestling just seems a bit dishonest to me. That's really my only point. And to tell you the truth, we may not know all the facts here. Was he on the wrestling team, but sat on the sidelines and didn't wrestle due to his injury? Or was he wrestling on Friday with the team and then using his medical exemption Saturday morning while bowhunting with his crossbow? Lots of variables here that we aren't aware of.
If the young man was healthy enough to wrestle, I would just hope he would have enough character not to go get a medical exemption to shoot a crossbow. Whether or not crossbows should be used or legal really isn't the issue here, but it seems to keep getting woven into this thread and confusing what I would see as the real issue which the OP originally stated.
--Mitch
Hey Pat... please let TBM back on bowsite, because these xbow threads are lame.
Rick - I think we've got one of TBM's long lost cousins posting on bowsite - plenty of drama over on that thread - all coming from one guy.
--Mitch
Mitch, obviously part of my previous comment was tongue-in-cheek humor...and I agree with the essence of your last message. We couldn't possibly know enough of the entire story to pronounce judgment on this young man's decisions or character...or for that matter the doctor or coach. People are using imaginations to fill in the gaps and lead them to conclusions which simply aren't fact-based. Keep in mind that using a sore shoulder to get a crossbow exemption probably rises to the same dishonesty level (of seriousness) as calling in sick to go hunting or having your girlfriend do your math homework because you're lazy. We all happen to be bowhunters and tend to light torches which produce a lot more heat than light. ;-)
The only issue here as I see it is a bunch of whiners and haters jealous of someone younger who killed a tremendous buck with a weapon that doesn't live up to their standards. Get over it! He had a Dr's note. Did you ever think maybe he reinjurued the shoulder and that's why the need for the second Dr's note. Or maybe none of this should even matter to you and you should just carry on with your own life and not worry so much about what others do.
This is not a crossbow thread
Title of this thread is "Legal does not make it right".........This is an ethics thread.
Bill, agreed. And no poster here has enough knowledge of the complete situation to even comment on the ethics.
Maybe I'll start a thread on whether trad bows are ethical when more efficient and accurate archery tackle is readily available.
congrats kid I see no ethics issue, kill um how ever you can .who cares what anyone thinks! ,bunch a whinny little school girls anyway good god ,,, STOP CRY N ....theres no crying in hunting just praise for the ones that get it done and the ones that keep trying to
Okay, ethics/xbow thread. BFD. Bunch of girls crying over legal means. The entire argument is trivial, at best.
I played a good deal of a season of football after a separated shoulder. I could still play football...... don't think I could have pulled a bow..... not sure, didn't even want to try.
If he had a shoulder that was healing could be they didn't want to risk it just to draw a bow. Or maybe it was still uncomfortable. He HAD a Dr.s note is my understanding. I don't believe they only give out such notes if your arm is just hanging by a thread and you may die if you draw a bow. All you really would have to say is "it's uncomfortable to try and draw a bow". Why would you need anything else? Why would any doctor deny the note? OK.... any doctor not on the Leatherwall.......
It's a crossbow. He got to keep hunting. Good for him, whatever his reasons. Wound up killing a stud buck. Great for him. Others here would deny him his hunt. IMO that is as much a risk to losing hunters and hunting itself as any x-bow.
I can't even open and read this thread without feeling uncomfortable.
This young man deserves to be left alone.
I vote we close this thread , or at least stop posting ...... and move on. There are one thousand other topics we can discuss. All in favor say "aye".
In my opinion, we in the hunting community need to accept any new "members" with open arms. If crossbows increase the "membership" (I don't know if it does or not) then GREAT! We are a dying breed that could use more "membership" to help protect what we love to do. If that means a few more people in the woods or mountainsides...so be it.
I think it's laughable that any argues that crossbows shouldn't be used because you don't have to practice. You can do the same thing with compounds. If I chose I could take my bow off the rack the day before season and shoot maybe 5 arrows and be able to kill a deer at 30 yards.
Some of you guys are missing the fact that crossbows are not legal in IA.
Only with special doctor note stating you are disabled.
The whole crossbow issue boils down to 90 degrees of orientation axis and 10 1/2# or less of held draw weight. Nominal, scant, piddling. Purely aesthetic. Move on.
