Frontal elk with a mechanical?
Elk
I know this will be one to remember but I'm curious who has done it and how did it work for you?
I haven't even shot an elk but am curious why a mechanical is acceptable to some on broadside shots but not on a frontal? On my elk hunts I have always had fixed heads in my quiver but I know a lot of elk killers use mechanical heads.
I killed my first bull in '98 with a quartering to me shot at 8 yards with a Rocket Sidewinder mechanical on a 2413 XX78.
I was on my knees as he approached and stopped at 8 yards. I didn't know anything about the controversy surrounding frontal shots but when he was standing there practically towering over me I knew where to shoot and that I could kill him.
I took him right in front of the shoulder and he spun and ran 105 yards and was down in seconds. The movement of his shoulder snapped my arrow off and the broadhead was trashed inside of the bull. It did the job but did not survive. If I remember right, the tip and 2 out of 3 blades broke off. I was told by the guy at the Pro shop that the Sidewinder was the broadhead to use but I wouldn't use one again...
Went less than 20yds
Not slow at all hunting dad. I'm just trying to figure out why I shouldn't shoot a mechanical head exclusively for game. Right now I am luke warm on large animals like elk.
mechanicals are awesome - ask anyone who uses them and mechanicals sucks, ask people who have lost animals because they didn't open, bent and broke
Elk are big. Whatever head you decide on, I would suggest its one you have complete faith in. With all the great options available today, there is no reason not to.
@ohiohunter
That my friend is fine piece of cow elk... :) We dont hunt big dogs or little deer in the mountains :)
Not a fan of mechanical broadheads and elk. A lot can go wrong.
I would rather have certainty that the broadhead will be cutting for as long as it is in an elk and not have a blade snap off on entry. Some of the newer mechanicals appear to be much better, but still, you will sacrifice at least a little bit of penetration due to the mechanical energy you need to open the blades. I would prefer as much energy as possible directed at penetration for an elk.
However, if you do get a good shot on an elk and the mechanical does open like it is supposed to without breaking the blades off, it will work very well. The bigger the hole you can put in an elk, the better off you are.
Frontal shots are frowned on by many, but I have seen a number of elk shot coming in that dropped in sight. With traditional bows, no less. I would have to say that a frontal shot with a compound and mechanical will put an elk down in short order - ala Cheesehead's example.
Good luck however you decide to go!
Seriously, I would not go to field without the broadhead I was 100% confident in for any shot. That is a solid fixed blade cut on contact. VPA is my first choice. Montec is an authorized substitute.
shot one frontal with a rocket steelhead xl and it killed the hell out of the elk
Glunt,
I think you are spot on. The Killzone I shot this past year is the best broadhead I believe I have ever shot but I am not experienced with elk. The point of this thread is I am a mechanical convert on deer but I don't have any experience with elk....Hence the apprehension.
You may not like mechanicals but the killzone is possibly the best mechanical on the market. The only competition it has is the Hypo as far as I am concerned.
I have used a 1-3/8" cut Grim Reaper Razortip a few times on frontal shots on elk. All have died in short order, all were shot from a short distance.
Cheese head.... Really? If you made a killing shot on an elk and and went 1o5 yards??
IMO sounds as it worked great...105. BH , combined with your shooting worked great imo..Why the hell not use it? Love me a short track. Job...The cost of that of ONE BH doing its job is miniscule compared to your gas driving to hunt..Food, ECT...
I, too am a big fan of the 3-blade VPA's - also Snuffers, Woodsman's, and Razor Caps for elk.
With over 30 years of elk hunting and guiding experience and seeing a number of mechanical and poorly constructed broadhead failures, I will not hunt with someone using a mechanical for elk. Just me.
If necessary, I will give a hunter something that will match their point weight that is solid and reliable.
If you feel you need to shoot a mechanical at an elk, knowing that there are more reliable options, that is your prerogative.
"If you feel you need to shoot a mechanical at an elk, knowing that there are more reliable options, that is your prerogative."
Do you hunt with guys who shoot compound bows?
I think a mech head on a 90 (180?) degree frontal would work great if you hit the "gap", hit your spot. If much of an angle was thrown in....it certainly can work, I don't think it would be the best option on elk. Any bones you want to point to on an elk are two to three times bigger than on any deer. In the breast area the "ribs" and breast bone not only get thicker and tougher, they can quickly have a steeper angle on them, easier to deflect. Big cut flexible blades on weaker attachment/end support and thinner blade section.... that's in the negative column when you're listing advantage to disadvantage.
That said, and as posted here.... lots of elk killed with that shot and that equipment. That it was a mech doesn't mean they are any less dead. And it certainly worked. If it were me I'd try to limit it to square straight on angles. My problem is sometimes I can talk myself into "I can make this...." =D
Elk I tend to lean to fixed blade. Not as much if were like a buff or something...... but the same general idea....
On a frontal your either in the or out, if you hit bone with either on this shot your screwed, I save my mechs for deer and black bears and use a fixed for elk and moose. I don't see any advantage to using a mech on elk, just as I don't see any advantage to using a fixed on deer, mechs have their place
Its still a great crossbow shot even in low light because they are so accurate.
carcus,
I never understood why a mechanical is only acceptable if its not a frontal. Since I've never shot an elk I didn't have any first hand experience. Personally....I think the biggest advantage to mechanical broadheads is that they are less prone to torque induced flight issues. I tune my bows with fixed heads and they always shoot great but I can purposely induce torque and send a fixed head off the mark but mechanicals are a different ball game.
I wish the Killzone low KE came in a 1.5" model instead of the low KE 1.75" model.
Sorry, Mark, I don't care how bad you suck at shooting, how lousy your shot selection is, or how bad you fall apart at the moment of truth..... but if you don't hunt with a broadhead I approve of, we can't hunt together.
:) :) :)
I'm not a fan of mechanicals but I'd rather have an 8 yards dead on frontal with an expandable than a quartering shot with an expandable.
I've seen a lot of bulls shot full frontal with expandables, and watched them go less then 40 yards pumping blood. This past year, I seen what the Ulmer's Edge do to bulls that come in head on. I've seen the NAP heads and the Wasp Jack Hammers used with great results.
Nick...I may use a Bullhead for catch and release. :)
I have not, but it has nothing to do with me choosing to shoot mechanical. Just not a risk I need to take to be successful every year.
The Last Savage,
I'm not disputing that the Sidewinder did it's job, however I prefer to shoot broadheads that are not "disposable". The fact that it was so busted up made me think about what could have happened if it got busted up before it did it's job. I wondered if I got lucky, killing the bull with that broadhead. I prefer to shoot a more durable head, especially at elk.
Prior to this hunt I didn't have any experience with elk. After killing this bull I got a new appreciation for how big they are. I'm not saying that all mechanicals are bad or that they are all created equal but that experience with the Sidewinder on the elk gave me something to think about....
I had another bad experience with a Wasp Jak Hammer on a whitetail but that's a story for another time...
Frontal shot PLUS mechanicals? This has to be the ultimate in controversy-producing questions. Now if we could only sneak Ted Nugent into the mix for the trifecta.... :)
I shot a bull in 2014 with a rage hypodermic, he was 9 yards away facing head on. my arrow burried in his hind quarter. i shoot a 27" draw, 74#'s and my arrow weighed 415 grains. that bull ran maybe 50 yards and was dead in less than 10 seconds.
I honestly don't get it. The logic is either the head is good for elk or it isn't. If you are confident on taking a broadside with it, and if you are confident in taking a frontals, then you SHOULD be confident in a frontal with it.
If a frontal shot is executed correctly you are in contact with nothing other than hide, meat and vitals.
Bottom line, if you're confident in the head, shoot it. If you're confident in the shot, take it.
I don't know about that. If you've ever shot broadside in front of the shoulder, even if you pass through and get both the front of the lungs up where the frontal shot starts, those animals live a long time...2 hours in my experience on 3 deer, even if they're sick and can't run. The frontal shot kills so quickly because the arrow penetrates midline back to the big vessels that come off of the heart and the big vessels in the center of the lungs.
If you only penetrate 6 inches on a frontal shot on an elk, I'd guess that the elk could live a long time. Fortunately, it's not that hard to penetrate 14-16 inches and get into all the important stuff, which is why, I'm sure, you have all these folks telling stories of killing elk with frontals and mechanicals.
For me, I just see too many videos of poor penetration and photos of fletching sticking out with mechancicals, and back half of arrows without any blood on them. I like watching my fletchings disappear with my COC BHs.
2016 bull with a Rage. Went 50-60 yards and did the death moan within a minute. Amazing results.
NAP Hellrazor 100: When a solidly-made fixed gets crushed like this, what's going to happen to a mechanical?
NAP Hellrazor 100: When a solidly-made fixed gets crushed like this, what's going to happen to a mechanical?
I look at it this way....
A good-quality fixed head is extremely unlikely to be catastrophically damaged and CANNOT fail.
Even the best quality expandables are subject to damage and CAN fail to open/penetrate as designed.
Therefore, the odds of a mech failing are literally INFINITELY higher. Not necessarily "high", but astronomically high-ER.
And when I see the lightning, I get the hell off of the ridge
And just to be clear... If you hit something that is too big and too hard for your broadhead to penetrate, that is not the fault of the head; not that I would put any money on a mechanical getting as far as a fixed would on a shot like that. When something goes bad, there's no sense compounding the problem...
RH, Good for him, problem is not everyone shoots 70lbs + and 500gr+ arrows.. otherwise they'd have a pin gap wider than Michael Strahan's teeth. With the eccentrics of today's bows there is no need to pull 75lbs, PLUS there is a bigger chance you will be stuck at full draw waiting for an elk vs a deer.
I've shot one of the many frontal shots I've taken on elk with a 440gr Axis and Spitfire head. The shot was a little off center, in the collar actually, penetrated about 18" then backed part way out. The bull went 40 yds, passed out as he was going down a rocky chute and broke his back leg....he came to, tried to go another short distance but I could see him so I ran over and put another arrow in him though I'm sure he would have been dead in a very short time.
I use a heavier arrow and fixed COC head now and it just pole axes them on a close frontal shot with the arrow exiting the hind quarter or burying somewhere in their back 40.
My question would be for the guys who use one head(mechanical)on say deer and bear then switch to a fixed blade for Elk and bigger. Why, if the fixed blade works on the larger animals it will work on the thin skinned as well or better. I am a firm believer in fixed blade heads. I have not shot a mechanical in at least 10 years as most of my experience with them sucked. I 100% agree when hit in the right spot a mechanical does the job, but we are shooting at live animals that can and do react at the shot many times and we do not always hit where intended, I want a BH that will still penetrate when encountering heavy muscle or bone and a mechanical rarely does that. Scooby
I believe Wards Outfitters highly recommends Vortex expandables. Hard to argue with Steven Ward's experience. Maybe he could comment if he reads this?
From what I have seen Jak Hammers do to critters, any shot I'd take with a Coc head, is the same I'd take with the Jak Hammer, for North American game. I am sure other good brand name mechanicals are the same.
"I believe Wards Outfitters highly recommends Vortex expandables. Hard to argue with Steven Ward's experience."
Could be because Steven Ward's dad invented the broadhead.
You need a setup with good KE for a mechanical to be effective on all game IMO. I only draw 65lbs and shoot a 450 GR arrow. If I drew 80lbs with the same setup, I would consider that appropriate for mechanical for elk. I'm not an expert, that's just my opinion.
"Could be because Steven Ward's dad invented the broadhead."
C'mon Nick! I base all my purchases on Steven Wards opinions and recommendations.
"My question would be for the guys who use one head(mechanical)on say deer and bear then switch to a fixed blade for Elk and bigger. Why, if the fixed blade works on the larger animals it will work on the thin skinned as well or better."
That is what I do - but then again I also own a rubber mallet, claw hammer, and sledge hammer when I guess just the sledge hammer would do.
Based on my experience, MBH's are a better tool for light game.
I probably should start relying more heavily on theories posted on the internet by people with no direct experience when making equipment choices...
I have been curious about mechanicals myself so last year I shot bear, deer and turkeys with 5 different mechanicals and 2 different fixed heads. I learned a lot about the various effectiveness in different situations and have eliminated some heads and found some great heads.
I agree with Matt that until you have used different style heads with your chosen equipment on game you will hunt yourself you can not make a valid determination. I was a "fixed only" guy until last year so my opinion was jaded to one side. What's best is only for you:)
"You need a setup with good KE for a mechanical to be effective on all game IMO. I only draw 65lbs and shoot a 450 GR arrow. If I drew 80lbs with the same setup, I would consider that appropriate for mechanical for elk. I'm not an expert, that's just my opinion."
I shoot 60# and a 420 gr arrow with 3 blade spitfire 125's. They're the most efficient bull elk killers I've used.
Wards: I didn't know that! Pretty cool actually. Good info.
Vortex are amazing broadheads. I've killed several big game animals with them over the years including elk. I'm sure I'll tick off a few people by adding this but I can't hold my tongue anymore. To say that mechanical broadheads in general are unreliable and/or ineffective or risky for elk is just plain wrong. It has been proven wrong repeatedly over the years. It's just a bunch of crap. Sorry.
" To say that mechanical broadheads in general are unreliable and/or ineffective or risky for elk is just plain wrong. It has been proven wrong repeatedly over the years. It's just a bunch of crap. Sorry."
I don't think anyone is saying that at all, and again to suggest anyone here is talking in absolution is only opening the door enough for you to toss in your 2cents. We all know mechs have killed elk, we (obviously not all of us) also understand the more complex a system is the more likely it will fail. Which broadhead is more complex? one with hinges and swinging blades or a plain jane solid fixed head? This margin is the void fixed blade advocates do not want to fall into. Some mechs are more reliable than others, some hunters are more patient than others... I mean does every tiny detail really need to be illustrated? Its like the guy who's hunting elk w/ a 223 vs the guy w/ 338 edge.
We all know things can go south when hunting, not just elk, but in those moments I owe it to my quarry to dispatch them as fast as possible. Yes mech do that very well when things go right with the proper set up and scenario however they are far less effective when the scenario is less than perfect, and in the heat of the moment one's mental clarity isn't always so clear. I've always been taught 2 holes are better than one, especially if shot from an elevated position. How many DEER have you seen poor penetration on w/ mechanicals? Those same deer hunters think they can waltz out to Co and put a rage in an elks cage, sorry buddy not gonna happen.
I think we all know there are do's and don'ts when it comes to arrow weight and elk, bowsiters ARE THE MINORITY. I've been on the other side and I've witnessed dozens of others who've suffered the same ignorance.
Fact, not every archer is as meticulous as most guys here.
I've taken two shots at Elk on the six archery Elk hunts I've been on and I've lost both. Both were poor shots with fixed blades (Montec and VPA). I think there are lots of quality mechanicals on the market today and I think mechanicals are more accurate. Who knows, I might've made more accurate shots if I had them. At the end of the day, I think shot placement is the name of the game and a broadhead put in the right place,whether the shot is frontal or broadside, will do the job. Sure, mechanicals have their cons, but they also have their pros vs. fixed blades.
Blaming your poor shot on the fixed blade broadhead is sad. If your bow is tuned, your fixed blades will hit the same place as field points, just like mechanicals. I'm not buying that your poor shots are due to fixed blade broadheads, and mechanicals are the answer.
"I shoot 60# and a 420 gr arrow with 3 blade spitfire 125's. They're the most efficient bull elk killers I've used."
Glad it works for you, Bob. What percentage of pass thru's would you say you get? Just curious.
I'm not Bob, but I have the same specs. On broadside or quartering away shots my percentage of pass thru's is dang near 100%, I think I have had two hit and stay in the off side shoulder. On frontal shots it is 0%, all have been recovered in the animal with the shortest amount of penetration being a little deeper than the 29.5" arrow.
Peco, i know one of the shots definitely was not the fault of the broadhead. It was purely me. The other one was at the extent of the range I'd shoot at...a little torque on a shot with a fixed blade is going to miss by a lot more than a field point or a mechanical. It's physics...fixed blades are not as forgiving as mechanicals when it comes to arrow flight. Mechanicals have their draw backs but they are no doubt more forgiving in the air. They generally provide a much larger cutting diameter as well. I feel comfortable in saying that there are probably animals that fell to mechanicals that would have been lost to fixed blades. The opposite is true as well.
it boils down to KE, shot distance , angle with any broadhead. yes If i have a bull at 25 yards i'm killing him, if the frontal angle is right. If he's 55 nope i'm letting him walk. Pick the right mechanical . Avoid Mechanical's that function like the rage style of deployment.
"They generally provide a much larger cutting diameter as well." Very much true. But cutting diameter and the corresponding higher blade angle creates a good bit of resistance which reduces penetration as well as is weaker against bone hits, heavy ribs etc.
A couple of top metrics that stand out for an elk broadhead are penetration and dealing with heavier bone structure. Both a weakness with most mechs when being applied to the strengths of the foe.
Again, train cars full of elk have been taken with mech heads. And I'm sure a good many frontals as well. But the discussion was about a frontal with a mech. IMO especially for that shot, or pretty much any hard angle shot on elk, mechs would not be the optimal tool if you were to draw it all up ahead of time..... yeah, right..... =D
Midwest , or it could be because I have witnessed over 300 animals being shot with all kinds of broadheads, or because I have tested every broadhead known to man?
Native, over the last 40+ years I can probably count my "complete" pass thrus (arrow on the ground) on one hand . It's not something I worry about when hunting, or strive for when choosing components. Specific to the Spitfire, I've seen noticeably better blood and faster kills with that head vs the fixed heads I've used over the years.
"... or it could be because I have witnessed over 300 animals being shot with all kinds of broadheads, or because I have tested every broadhead known to man?"
I've seen men overlook far more when forming opinions on something for which they have a reason to prejudge.
absolutely no reason to not shoot a frontal shot on elk with a mechanical head.........
"or it could be because I have witnessed over 300 animals being shot with all kinds of broadheads, or because I have tested every broadhead known to man?"
Ehhh, I'm saying it's because your family owns them. I Would too! Cha Ching $$
"It's not something I worry about when hunting, or strive for when choosing components."
Thanks for the feedback, Bob. So in a mechanical, what is it that you are looking for in components if your not looking for two holes vs one? My experience is not that of yours but I prefer two holes and typically have better blood trails if I do in my experiences.
"Midwest , or it could be because I have witnessed over 300 animals being shot with all kinds of broadheads, or because I have tested every broadhead known to man?"
Yeah, I s'pose. I wasn't putting your broadhead down. Just making an observation that SteveB apparently wasn't aware of. In fact, I was interested in trying your heads due to the reviews I've heard on here from guys who weren't on the payroll.
You say to avoid the rear deploying mechs. Can I ask why you feel that way?
For those that are still confused about the whole Elk vs. mechanicals portion of this thread.
That is a great elk, and great shot, but not a frontal shot.
Midwest- PM me and I will tell you why "he" said that. And of course "he" is wrong as usual. The truth is the polar opposite...
"avoid the rear deploying mechs." I have also always heard, and read the opposite. I too would like to hear more about that comment.
Native, the only mech head I have used is the Spitfire 125. I prefer a 1 3/6 - 1 1/2 dia cut and three blades. Over the years I've used a bunch of broadheads and that head always produced better results for me. It fit what I wanted in cut dia and number of blades, and I liked the "over the top" blade deployment. Here in OR I've gone back to the Thunderhead 125. It's 1 3/6 dia and three blades and does a good job. Mechanicals aren't for everyone and certainly not a "band-aid" for bad shooting or a crutch to allow someone to extend their range because of flight characteristics.
Thanks, Bob. Appreciate your point of view on the subject. I'm a slick trick guy myself. I like the look of their new mechanical. May trial it in the future at some point.
Backside bottom exit.
Backside bottom exit.
Here's a pic of my elks heart from this season. Frontal 11 yds. Rocket steelhead 100, 1 1/8 wide when open. To my surprise it made it about 250 yards. Saying to myself as it went out of site . What just happened i hit right where i was aiming.. Don't think you could ask for better shot placement from the frontal. In the top of the heart and out the backside bottom.
Avoid rear deploying rage style broadheads? You might lose a bit of credibility over that statement. Yes, I have shot both Vortex and rear deploying rage style (Snyper). Still have a few R&D prototypes made before the design was sold to Rocky Mountain.
"You say to avoid the rear deploying mechs. Can I ask why you feel that way?"
Likely because a head that deploys externally cuts at its maximum diameter through the hair and hide which takes quite a bit of energy. It also exposes the entire cutting edge of the blades to dulling forces before they ever encounter the vitals.
I do believe rear deploying blades (and I have nothing scientific on which to base this) take less energy for blade actuation, but my sense is you give that up and more pushing the full cutting diameter through the hair/hide.
I likewise believe that there are other reasons that the TV guys very rarely can push a Rage all the way through a deer (which are ~1/3 of an elk) like shooting lower poundage and sub-optimal tuning, but blade actuation-related energy loss is undoubtedly a factor.
Gentlemen you will notice I didn't say only vortex. You must use vortex. Yes I am part owner of the Vortex company. And myself and my fauther are the designers of most of the dead ringer broadheads. Matt is exactly right. Broadheads that fully deploy on the entrance side of the animal give up huge amounts of KE. And if they encounter any resistance with bone you are now trying to push a fully deployed blade through that bone. Tell me why you all think otherwise?
A fixed blade BH is always "fully deployed" on the entrance side.
Wapitibob Yes but fixed heads on average cut only 3/4" to 1.1/8" Not 2" to 2.5"
The rear deploying heads seem like they would be better. Don't give up as much energy etc.
You guys are saying other mechanicals that flip up are better?
Absolutely they typically travel past the hard bone and tissue with a smaller cutting diameter until the travel the length of the broadhead plus some they are not fully developed. Therefor giving up less energy
"but fixed heads on average cut only 3/4" to 1.1/8"
I'm not sure about that either. While those heads exist, your Muzzy, which is a common head, is 1 1/4 and 1 1/8 is pretty much the standard for most COC BHs. I don't see anyone shooting any smaller.
I limit my max dia to 1 1/2". 2" or larger is too big on any game animal in my opinion.
"You guys are saying other mechanicals that flip up are better? "
Saying they may use less energy to get through the hair/hide and into the good stuff and potentially retain a better edge in doing so. The benefits of the Rage rearward deploying BH is the most heavily marketing dollar-supported farce since we learned the Mathews solo cam would kill the dual cam.
"I limit my max dia to 1 1/2". 2" or larger is too big on any game animal in my opinion. "
All else equal, a 3 blade BH with a 1.5" cutting diameter has more blade length/resistance than a 2" 2 blade. I am not sure that cutting diameter alone is the right way to think about it.
I think I need a hole vs a slit, although the dual bleeder blade Carbon Express F15 I used did cut "flaps" exactly like the adds portrayed. If i could get that head in 1 3/16 or so I would use it again.
"Saying they may use less energy to get through the hair/hide and into the good stuff and potentially retain a better edge in doing so. "
I'm in this camp, especially after inspecting blades shot through some mud crusted hogs. If I was to use a mechanical, I'd much rather have an "over the top" style that saved some sharp blade for the stuff I'm actually trying to cut, instead of slapping 2.5" of wallow mudded hide right off the bat and then trying to press on with less than optimum edge left.
I'm not a mechanical hater, tried quite a few over the years, one thing I know for sure is there is a lot of performance differences between heads even of similar design.
This is my preferred 'rear deployed, mechanical' for elk
I've used vortex for 30 years and taken 20 elk, buffalo and african game with them without failure. Maybe I'm just lucky. I think not.
I wonder if there is a physics forum with a bunch of scientists arguing over some bowhunting related topic that we would get a chuckle out of when we see the "facts" and theories they throw out?
Funny you mention it Glunt, I was recently talking with a good friend of mine who is an engineer with a physics degree and I talked with him a bit about the discussions that prevail on archery internet forums and he laughed his ass off. Especially on the KE stuff. He said KE, for our purposes, meant nothing if there was a comparison of two different arrows and their calculated momentum.
I'll take the COC 3 blade with a 1" cut dia. It has 3 blades that are 1/2" wide, for a total of cutting area of 1.5". It will make a hole, entry and exit larger than needed to quickly collapsed lungs, bleed out and kill the animal. I am not buying this "they get dull upon entry" line. My proof is in my freezer. You guys keep your flimsy, steep angle blade, mechanicals that may or may not deploy, and all your hype. I am not a believer.
Peco Good for you ! And when you make a bad shot you will be wishing you had a larger cutting broadhead. shoot what you are confident with!!!, oh by the way I could collapse lungs with a field point, so good argument there buddy. I would venture to say that you are not a believer because you have no experience with a quality Mechanical broadhead. My proof is in the 100 plus big game animals I have harvested with one brand of Mechanical broadhead.
I really question the basis for the internet bravado displayed by people who criticize a type of BH they have never used and in doing so downplay the experiences of those who have killed lots of animals with both MBH's and fixed blades. I guess it helps them sleep better at night...
Why hunt with equipment you have no confidence in just to satisfy an "experience"? Especially when elk tags are far and few for most?
I don't have to hunt elk with a 22-250 to know I should've taken my 300wm.
The knock on over the top hinge style heads is small entrance hole. Pretty much a major reason for rear deploy design. If you don't have an exit just offhand I would say blood trails could be an issue? Yes, animal is likely dead, but possibly not recovered.
I understand that large rear deploy entrance hole comes at a loss of energy. But you do get at least ONE large hole. WRT ribs and bones IMO that is always going to be an issue with mechs and elk.
Interesting theories on the designs, advantages and disadvantages. I'd like to hear more.
I sure hope we get this settled before the P&Y get together. It could get ugly if you throw in alcohol.
I will just shoot what i have always shot. Wasp Jak-Hammers. I do use the select-a-cut collars for elk that reduce cutting diameter to 1.5 inches and give the blades a much more swept back angle. If a good close frontal shot presents itself I will kill them! I am shooting 73 pounds, 476 grain Axis shafts, with a speed bow, and 30 inch draw.
TD Some of the mechanical heads you are thinking about have a 1" cut while in flight so no matter what , even if you get no exit you still have that 1 " hole.
I know some believe there is no reason to, but even if you are shooting your fixed heads tuned perfectly out to 120 yards, there is still an accuracy advantage to shooting mechs, because they are more forgiving in the moment of truth when sometimes SH*$ just goes sideways and you may torque your grip, catch a sleeve, punch the release, maybe it's cold outside and form is suffering who knows.
What most guys are trying to balance in the accuracy game is trying to gamble on which side of the forgiveness table they want to be on. Forgiveness of the shot, or forgiveness on hitting bone,etc.
Now assuming we are talking about proven quality heads, BOTH MECH AND FIXED heads fly true to the target, no one says they don't. One style is more forgiving. Both MECH AND FIXED heads will kill the animal if the head is put in the right spot. But one is more forgiving. The balance people will fight you to the grave (apparently) over is which aspect of forgivable is better.
I have used flip over the top, and rear deployment mechanicals. ALL of which claim claim to be the best. They weren't. I don't like like the short, steep angle fixed blades either. Unless someone wants to send me a pack of "their" broadheads to try, I am out of this conversation. Better send 2 packs. I will release my bias and give an honest test, review.
Peco
what grain do you shoot send me your address
Ward's Outfitters; I have used Grim Reaper Razortips for quite a while with good results. What would make your broad heads better? You can pm if you would like to.
They aren't. You are using the best product of the old technology over the top expandables.
ElkMan
I would have to disagree, yes grim reapers are a good mechanical , but I have seen lots of blades break on these heads. From testing and also from Clients using them. You will not break a blade on our Broadheads. Our Blades are designed to bend under extreme loads. This picture is of a blade we twisted with pliers to show they will not break.
This has been an interesting thread. . . . Keep it going please. I'm struggling with the idea of switching back to mech's for this year. I may have to do like Charlie and put a couple different kinds in the quiver this year and test them out on some whitetail does.
I love my fixed blade VPAs, but I struggle with tuning and form. My tune is always perfect when I start the season in September, but by January 15, after 50 or more hunts of banging the bow around and shooting throughout the season, my tune suffers, and I have to start at ground zero to retune. ( I don't know why I can't get a bow to stay in tune with good custom strings, other than I'm hard on the thing through quite a few hunts in a season)
And my form is a struggle as well. I tend to torque. With field points, the effect is negligible. With blades, the effect is pronounced
Just stick with what you have confidence in Blane. If you decide to go expandable PM me and we can get it figured out.
I'll be testing the Slick Trick100, Ironwill titanium 100, and Solid 100 in the next few weeks. I'm doing photo, video, and written documentation in a thread called New Year, New Season over on Rokslide. You can also see them on my Instagram. If Ward's wants to put their mechanical in the mix I'll test it as well. Doing flight and torture testing.
I have been biting my tongue reading all these great discussion....BUT, I don't feel you should ever take a frontal shot on any big game animal. Think about this. When the animal is facing or walking towards you, there will be a point in time when the animal will turn either to the left or to the right and then....WILL BE BROADSIDE TO YOU. Take your shot then! I have attached a photo taken this year of a frontal shot deer. The shot was 50 yards coming out of a wash and was shot with a crossbow (the hunter is handicapped and lives in Arizona) If it had not been for the large cutting head hitting the aorta in the neck he might have just been wounded.
The problem wasn't the frontal shot. The problem was the 50yd frontal shot.
Have to respectfully disagree. Many times..... especially on our deer, they don't "turn" they see something out of place, whip and spin around and gone. You likely even might be shooting at a hard moving animal. Elk..... they are coming straight at you most times because you've called them to you. It's very common. It's a ground angle shot you have to hit a small target, so a close shot. And you have to know where the target really is and the angles. If you can't make the shot do not take it. But inside 20 yards I'll take it every day and twice on sunday......
Actually that shot pictured was WAY high, like 6 or 8 inches. He either did not know where to aim or muffed the shot. No matter what the shot or the angle to the vitals..... you have to MAKE the shot. Even a broadside, you hit 8" high you are in no mans land. In any case you kind of made an example for using the mech on a frontal...... =D
A bad shot is a bad shot no matter the angle.
Agree with Wyo. Poor shot choice due to distance and angle.
"When the animal is facing or walking towards you, there will be a point in time when the animal will turn either to the left or to the right and then....WILL BE BROADSIDE TO YOU."
Wrong. But its OK to be wrong
I"ll continue taking frontal shots every chance I get
Each and every shot we take on animals is different , to include frontals, angles of the animal, the shot angle, the distance, I'm curious to all who say they take frontal shots on a regular basis, what frontal shot will you not take.
Well I sure as hell wouldnt take a 50yd frontal like mentioned above
Don't think anyone has ever said a 50 yard frontal is a good idea. Though the hunter is lucky in this case it was a frontal, because he shot completely over the entire rib cage. Higher than all the vitals. If he hadn't of hit the aorta that deer would prob never be in his life again. Then again, arguing could haves would haves is prob pointless, maybe he would have got lucky and pierced the dorsal aorta. Large mech and all the spine bones and a light bolt prob not a good combo for spine though.
As everyone knows: If you are wanting a path to the vitals that contains zero bones - the frontal or an anus shot are the only options. (unless you get super lucky and slip one between ribs) Anus you're trying to hit a tennis ball sized target, and have to travel full length through the elk. Only TBM condones that one. Frontal you're looking at a decent sized target and only have to travel a short distance to reach the goods.
cnelk so tell me which frontals you would take.
50yds frontal is pure irresponsibility IMO, its a crossbow not a rifle. Sounds to me like the guy just wanted to hit brown. Similarly a new bow hunter i know took a 50yd shot quartering away and I thoroughly believe he was aiming just to hit the elk, not to precisely place his arrow in the vitals... I've seen him shoot, his 20yd groups were the size of a serving tray. I'm glad both instances resulted in recovered animals, but it is certainly not always the case.
"cnelk so tell me which frontals you would take."
Wards Outfitting - Are you talking deer?
Since this is in the ELK forum Im going to specifically talk elk.
'Frontals" Plural? IMO its either a frontal or not - no plural
Its no secret I hunt thick timber. I cant even hardly see 50yds where I elk hunt, let alone shoot that far. All the frontals we have shot the elk have come directly into the hunter, 20 yds or less.
I have never taken a frontal shot on anything other than maybe a Turkey or Javelina. But I have really been doing some extensive autopsy work on my animals for the last few years, and I believe my research has lead my to believe that in the right situation, with the right set up, at the right distance, that angle can be very lethal and fast.(very important to me) From what I have learned I would prefer the hard quartered angle versus the straight on shot. All that being said, the next Bull I am having a staring match with at 4 yards is going to take a Rage in the front of his cage, and results will be my guide...
"...tell me which frontals you would take."
One I am fully confident I can make. Twice in my life.
midwest,
Are you talking about your glamour shot frontals or bowhunting frontals?
Bowfreak...you did not just go there! hahaha LOL
Oh my..... gonna NEED a mech there........
I like the frontal where he is holding his collar... it says "I'm quizzical and classy"
Those were for your eyes only, Mark!
Ok, so now you have your perfect frontal shot and you decide to take it....what's going to happen when the animal reacts to the shot? Is it going to hold perfectly still for your perfect frontal shot?
At less than 20 yards, the reaction usually isn't too severe.
I've taken the frontal shot 3 times.
Once at 7 or 9 yards on an elk--dead elk within 50 yards and less than 30 seconds. Arrow was sticking out of his ham about 12 inches. Penetrated whole length of body cavity
Once at 18 yards on a whitetail buck--dead in less than 10 seconds within 40 yards. Arrow exited around his penis, entered higher on neck from my treestand
And the third was a follow up at 40 yards on a lechwe, and I missed my mark to the left, but still got full penetration through almost the whole length of the body cavity, although I missed the heart, and probably only peripherally scratched one lung.
It is a DEADLY shot! I don't specifically look for the shot. But I don't hesitate to take it if offered. I subscribe to the theory of taking the first "good" shot. Often times you never get the "perfect" shot.
Bake
HEAD DOCTOR - Ok, so now you have your perfect broadside shot and you decide to take it....what's going to happen when the animal reacts to the shot? Is it going to hold perfectly still for your perfect broadside shot?
I've seen 2 bulls move at the shot over the last 40 years. Both times the hunter was pegged long before the shot went off.
It's a non issue if your tactics are sound.
Wait. Why am I answering frontal questions from the Ward Bros?
Not an elk, but here' a good video of a frontal with an anatomy break down after the recovery. The deer made it 50 yards and was dead in 10 seconds.
Cnelk, are those vortex frontals?
"Cnelk, are those vortex frontals?"
No
I misunderstood the statement on the pictures. Awesome shots, can't wait for that close of an encounter.
