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It passed. Fees increase and the dept loses 5-6 million from the general fund for a net loss.
Elk regular $690 and special is $1266
Archery $70
Points $75
Buffalo now $4,400 LOL
Damn. You can literally buy a buffalo for less than 4K.
Think that'll decrease the number of applicants? Over $1300 for a special tag, when all is said and done, is getting pretty steep.
Were there any changes to the allocation between special and regular?
Well looks like I completed my last special app for elk at least until Colorado increases their price.
That solved Montana's general big game combo demand problem. It used to take 1-2 points to be sure you would draw. When they raised their price to almost $1000, the big game combo is a guaranteed draw again...
The increase in point cost is my biggest beef but in reality this is in no way a deal breaker for me.
Ditto Bowfreak.
Don't like it....but will pay it.
nonresident moose $1,980, damn.
has the governor signed off on this or is that just a given?
Sure hope I draw the random NR moose tag this year!
Worth noting, with the passage of HB288, 5-6 million of gen funds that were earmarked for the Game dept will go away. The result is higher fees for NR and a wash or net loss in revenue for the Game dept. Pulling the gen funds was part of another bill as I understand it and not the intent of the sponsors of this bill.
In all likelihood, just to go to WY on the general license is going to cost at least $1000 for most applicants. Time for some heavy Idaho research and hope that Montana doesn't decide to up the ante. Hopefully, Bowsiters will continue to recommend WY as the place to be, as has been the theme.
Dang, been holding off on drawing for way too long.
Will definitely be pushing to draw and use my points across the board very soon.
Then Wyoming will be losing a lot of $$ from me in the future. No need to keep shoveling the money to them over many, many years just buying points in hopes of ever drawing a good tag.
Dang!....Wyoming was already the most expensive state in the west to apply and buy points for everything. And you can't apply for Moose and/or Sheep without buying points. I see the bill reads "not to exceed" on the PP fee limits. Maybe I'm dreaming but hoping they won't actually raise them that much right away? To apply for all 7 species and buy points for the 5 that have points, the non-refundables rise from 393.00 to 580.00 per year....yikes!!!
BTW, they're still not even the most expensive state for NR Bison. Arizona gets 5400.00!
With points, archery license, application fees, and other stamps, the cost of a regular price general tag is going to hit $1,100.00 very soon. If my wife found out I spent that on a simple hunting license I'd lose 1/2 of my hunting stuff and would be homeless.
Nowiser... same here, talked to my wife this year about applying for Wyoming. She asked how much it cost. I hesitated and said quietly, $1100. She bout had a stroke.
^^^^^ Then you could move to Wyoming :-)
You guys give your wives WAAAYYYY too much info!
Mainer, I got a good laugh on that one!
Sticksender, I only give information when asked, definitely don't volunteer it! Ha ha!
I already bought my wife... I mean ex-wife a house and sent her packing...
I don't know if I'll ever get married again... probably just find a woman I don't like and buy her a house... ;^)
My wife tried to buy me an Africa hunt last weekend at our OBH banquet.
It all starts with the interview fellas.
Any word on an increase for the Reduced Price Cow/Calf tags? Will they become "Sort of Reduced"?
The point hike is BS. I can get on board with the fee increase, but they're not providing anything of real value (as in a tag for a managed animal) in selling points. How much is the moose tag going to cost now? Too much more and I'll drop out of that draw...
Well, if you're a conservative/republican or whatever, this should thrill you. It's capitalism at it's finest.
If they buy all your product, you haven't been charging enough. It's obvious the WY legislature figured that out.
For me this is just another affirmation of my mistake in getting into points to begin with. I am pretty much looking at 10-12 year plan to be totally out.
I am glad I got in the points game years ago and I have learned to burn them now and not wait. It just keeps getting worse (as in $$ and NR tags) across many states. They just keep killing the dream of most, so my kids won't have the opportunities I have had.
Would be nice to draw moose this year and be done with it....getting expensive !!
"Well, if you're a conservative/republican or whatever, this should thrill you. It's capitalism at it's finest. If they buy all your product, you haven't been charging enough. It's obvious the WY legislature figured that out."
And Alaska just doubled their NR fees too. But Im sure they wont see a drop-off in sales
Why any conservative would be thrilled with paying more of his hard earned money for anything is beyond me. Especially to a government entity.
Here's the bill that passed.
Ike,
I don't think any conservative likes to pay higher prices but typically they are OK with market value. At least they should be. One caveat with this is there is a hint of redistribution in all game departments as the NR subsidizes the resident. Just like working people pay for the non productive. We are all residents somewhere so we all receive the same benefit so to speak.
So the $75 point fee is accross the board for elk, deer, and lopes. $150 for moose points?
What are the 75 NR tags set aside for "a national bow hunt for deer"?
100.00 for a Sheep PP was already steep. But 150.00 each for Sheep and Moose points is getting profane. That's well beyond any other state's NR fees. And by "profane" I mean literally, 'cause it's like flippin' us the bird, knowing full well most of us are too far invested to drop out now. I rarely complain much about NR fees, 'cause we're all free to play or not play. But this goes so far it is getting goofy.
"as the NR subsidized the resident". The NR pays nothing to support the hunted state's schools, roads, and other infrastructure so the license cost simply reflects the seller appraising the value and charging same.
It had been about 20 years since AK last raised rates. They were a supreme bargain held in place by the outfitting industry lobbying. Only our collapsing economy caused this increase.
I'd like to be able to hunt free. I do in Alaska, but it's not reasonable, even here. Time will tell if WY has gone over the demand threshold with their increase, but I doubt it. Just hope they don't start putting the high demand units up for auction.
The problem is that $150 for a point is ridiculous for a couple reasons: 1) you can't opt out of the point for sheep/moose/goat. 2) If you've gotten into the game within the last several years, the odds of ever drawing a moose tag with points is nil to near-nil. I only put in for moose in WY with the hope that I'd pull a random tag one day, however unlikely. Now, I don't think that $150 plus borrowing WY F&G all that money for 3 months is worth it.
It costs $110 to apply for moose/sheep/goat each in Washington State. I dropped out of that race after the first year not being able to justify the cost for the odds.
Natural Resources professionals call it "testing the willingness-to-pay threshold". They are gambling that any slight drop off in hunter numbers will be offset by increased revenue. But in this case the way the bill is written it appears to be a net loss anyway.
Colorado is raising resident license fees. NRs are the gravy train. The way I look at it, if somebody can't afford a NR license they probably shouldn't be hunting out of state anyway. Sure, it's great to hunt all sorts of animals, but every hunter has plenty of opportunities to hunt their own state on the cheap if finances are that tight.
Maybe if more did that the state game departments wouldn't keep pushing the prices up. Obviously the prices aren't a deterrent yet.
Okay, unless I misread the bill, elk, deer, and antelope points are not $75. That is the cap, which previously had been $50. It will be up to fish n wildlife to set the number.
I just drew my Wyoming sheep tag this past season. 20 years ago I think I was paying 20$ for a point. Then 50$, then 100$. I think the tag cost at first was about 1,000$. In 2016 it was 2200$ and then some.
I hung in there , at the cost of sacrificing my moose points.
God blessed non residents with the state of Wyoming when it came to sheep hunting. No state in the west is as generous with non residents with their sheep tags. It's not perfect , and I understand getting in 20 years ago was much better than getting in today. But, they gave me a real chance to hunt sheep and man , what a great sheep hunt it was!!!!
Thank you to Wyoming ...but please try not to raise the point fees any higher !!
I envy those who have the paitience to wait 10,15,20 years before they get to hunt a specify animal or area! I'm new to this game and for the life of me I just can't sit down and look that far ahead and start dumping money into a system like that. Maybe I'm crazy, stupid, or selfish or whatever, but I think if I wanted something like that I'd some how just give in and pay for a landowner tag or go oos to make the hunt while I'm young and fresh! No im not rich, far from it, I just know how to manage my spending I save the money to do what I love as much as I can!
sasquatch, your not crazy, stupid or selfish for not getting in the point game. Your good at math. Wyoming will be a one'n done state for me next year...hopefully! I regret getting into the point game 8 years ago because I've been finding decent hunting in OTC/general units for both deer and elk.
The number I heard yesterday was an increase of 15,000 nr apps in the last three years.
I think WY knew that the pump was primed and gold ready for the taking to raise the prices.
Just look at how many are 'invested' in the point game right now [me included] and will prob try to hang for a year for 2, [maybe even longer depending on PPs].
Then dump and run [if what Im reading above is true]
Ya but is it enough to offset all the people that will quit altogether? Buddy of mine bought his first sheep point last year there. Today he said he's out. That's a lot of long term revenue they will lose from people like him. I'll be more likely to go buy a tag every year in Montana now than Wyoming. Especially with the draw odds in the crapper. I think this is going to be a big loss for them.
I wonder why I had so many PM's waiting for me this morning...... Now I am understanding why so many are interested if I am going to share my 11 deer points this year with group appl. or even my 11 points on Antelope this year with group appl.
2018 will be a pricey year for Wyoming.........even Not to draw! haha
Good luck, Robb
WY knows there many of us in the Over 8 club for moose and sheep. We probably will not back out after building points this long. They are still sore from Trumps great speech to congress the other day. hahaha
Dropping out maybe a viable option. Something I was told early in life that has made and saved me a lot of money over the years. Your first loss is your best loss and you don't throw good money after bad. At some point I think this will apply to many of us not only n Wyoming but in other places as well.
Will definitely be looking at drawing tags this year and next to drop out of the game. Pretty sure I will be out for good for several species up there but will have to hang in there till I draw on a few others.
Moose is most likely out since I killed one up there and am now back to 3 points. May have to look at drawing a cow tag next year just to ease the sting.
With 16 points for sheep, I have too much invested to quit the game till I draw.
Can't seem to draw an elk tag up there and now sitting on 10. Probably keep plugging away there and drop back to an easier draw for next year just to get out of the game.
Will be looking hard at deer and antelope this year with 8 for deer and 10 for antelope...
If you want to claim that this should be some truly capitalistic model, which I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD, you include residents too... and you take as much money from them as you can as well. Obviously not the case in this instance.
I take this to heart because I love WY, and almost consider it like a home-away-from-home of sorts. It is the only state I've ever applied in, and I appreciate the opportunities I've been afforded there. However, the cost to play the points game is now completely unjustifiable for me if the cost of points raises (which is pretty likely), so I will likely take my losses in WY and hunt otc or apply in other states.
Really glad I didn't get into any of the games other than elk/deer. The new price point sucks, and I'm not sure what the price point is where I'll quit applying to Wyoming, but I know they haven't met it yet and they still probably have quite a ways to go before I'll actually let it affect my decision making.
I say if want to charge that much more for NR then we should be able to hunt the wilderness unguided!
I agree wildwilderness. After all the high fees and they want more money to hire a guide? Crazy!
This happens every time a western state raises fees. People get all wired-up and threaten to stop hunting there, complain about how unfair it is, then next year after another state raises theirs, they are right back at buying points. I quit buying deer points in Iowa because I can't justify that to hunt a stupid whitetail. But that was my choice. Others disagree and keep buying.
States look at every possible way to raise revenue. It costs a lot of money to manage for 8 or 9 species plus all the crap the feds force them to manage and study (migrating African songbird studies?) They can't just offer more licenses.
There doesn't seem to be a shortage of hunters willing to play the point game, and if they raise it by 50% and 30% of NR applicants quit buying points, guess what? They still sell the same number of licenses and it becomes easier to draw.
When we started collecting points there were no assurances that prices wouldn't rise or tag numbers wouldn't be cut. This is life. Nothing is stopping anyone from moving to WY. Cheap land, no state taxes, low cost of living, hunting and fishing opportunities abound.
Sorry to be the bearer of reality. I'm retired and increases sting for me too. But I'm figuring out how to earn a few extra bucks every year in retirement to fund my hunting, and don't want to get too old to hunt wishing I'd done more. A high-speed rollover wreck can change ones perspective very quickly. My daughter may inherit a few thousand less. Bummer for her. As I said before, if it's that much of a financial strain you shouldn't be in the game anyway.
BTW, if anyone stayed off the Bowsite yesterday and paid attention to the world, Snap stock rose 44% in the first trading day. Those astute enough to buy some and sell it at 2:30 EST would be able to hunt wherever they want and have no worries about point prices....
Lou,
In reality it is a minimal difference for someone traveling as far as I do for elk. It is on par with gasoline raising $.50/gallon for me.
Sorry if I sound like a scold, but geez, this same thread gets started every year about some state in the West. The same complaints are made. Then next year people apply again and point creep continues....
I strongly urge every nonresident to please boycott the point game in every western state. That'll teach them a lesson and make it easier for the rest of us to draw.
I agree it will be interesting to see if there's any effect on participation in the draws. Wyoming's last big fee hike several years ago did take a toll, but it was far more dramatic than this one (as I recall sheep PP's went from 7.00 to 100.00 for NR). With so many different pay-app services in play now, all pushing "apply apply apply", there's a good chance the effect of this rate hike will be slim to none.
I agree Lou. There are likely always going to be more people that either have plenty of cash or cannot control their spending habits well enough to resist the impulse to buy things, points for hunting included. That doesn't mean there aren't some people sincere in their unwillingness to pony up (there are a few).
I've already stated my opinion on the price increase. Fees must go up to match rising costs, so I was okay with the fee increase. However, the powers that be have now decided recently that a) they are putting more of the licenses in the expensive draw, b) NR license fees will go up across the board, & c) points to play the waiting game are significantly increasing. I can't justify buying points at the (likely) risen cost, thus I won't. Such is life, and I'll move on, maybe even try for a low odds random in WY once in a while.
A dedicated elk hunter on an average budget is still much better off living in the midwest or south budget-wise. I have a lot of friends with average incomes back in the midwest or south that live in the country on a few acres with trees and maybe water. They elk hunt 7-10 days a year and hunt deer and turkey before and after work. Most of my average income buddies out west live in a crowded subdivision and elk hunt 7-10 days a year. They drive hours to hunt everything.
I wish it were different in WY. I love it there and live 40 miles from the border but the cost means I only rarely have a tag for something with horns.
Glunt, it can be different in WY. I can be hunting elk in 20 minutes from my house. I hunt and guide for at least 50 days a year. I am retired, knees are about wore out, you just need to pick your spot. This bill will curtail the point creep for you NR's. The outfitter I work for had 11 hunters that didn't draw tags this year, I bet next year all his hunters draw. I hate the fact that it is a rich man's game as all of you do, but it pays for my golf in NV in the winter. As a side note, we are really pushing to continue the spikes excluded here in our area, as the bull quality has increase substantially since it was accepted.
Deadeye, I can be hunting elk 10 minutes from my house in CO but this year will be hunting elk in WY because it's worth it. CO raised NR prices and PP prices and it hasn't seemed to make a difference, but still too early to tell. CO makes it pretty easy for NRs to hunt every year while building points.
The only thing about elk hunting in the West that makes it a rich man's sport is when somebody pays an outfitter (I used to be a guide, too..). Otherwise, adjusted for inflation, a DIY elk hunt is still inexpensive for the quality of the experience.
Lou, I disagree. This is not just another incremental price hike.
In CO, even though I have to front the money for the tags, it costs me about $100/yr to apply for multiple species. In Utah, I can apply for like 8 species for (averaged out using the hunting lic) $100/yr. In NV, it costs me $200/yr to apply for 5 species. In AZ, it costs me about $200/yr to apply for 4 species. In New Mexico, they REFUND the hunting license if you don't draw...and the application fee is nominal.
It's like this in most states. I apply in AK, Maine, California, Iowa, Kentucky, and many states in between. It costs a few bucks to apply.
Now compare that with WY now: If you had the big 4 (bison, sheep, moose, goat) at $150 which is what has been authorized, then add in elk, deer, and PH at $75, you're now at $825/yr in WY to JUST build points! That's ridiculous and I don't care how you spin it or what economic model you quote. WY was already, by far, the most expensive place to build points and they just doubled down...
Ike,
I don't disagree with your point, but I don't think WY has points for bison and goat (is that in the new law?), so subtract $300 from your worst case estimate.....FWIW.
It's 580.00, I already posted the numbers way up above.
Buy hey, my wife never listens to me, so why should I expect you guys to ;--)
Ike, I understand your point and this sucks for point collectors. Same thing when CO went from $3.25 for a point (stupid cheap!) to the current system. Cheap points caused CO creep to explode.
I'm not sure what you can do about it except be mad at Wyoming and vent here. As long as people are willing to keep buying points, states will keep pushing the envelope. In the long run this may actually work to your advantage by reducing point creep and point investment of enough people burn points and drop out.
You're both right. I don't put in for bison in WY and forgot about that. It's still ridiculous that it's potentially that much money just to apply. $200/yr for all species is pretty much the high end in most states. And not just any states, we're talking the most desirable states to draw a tag in.
I won't do it. I drop $3 grand a year across this country in just non-refundables for me and the people in my family that I put in for. I'll still go in for elk, deer, and pronghorn because I can avoid the PP every couple years for each of them, but if the PP cost for moose/sheep goes up to $150/yr, I'm out. It's not that I can't afford it. It's principle. I won't pay $12 for a beer in a ball park either. I won't bend over and pull my pants down for anyone...this is just stupid. Raise the damn tag prices. We shouldn't even have to pay for points - they have no substantive or intrinsic value.
I also disagree in that I think there is a point of no (or little) return on raising prices. MT had a major increase and instantly went from a 2 year to draw demand to leftover tags every year. I don't know if the increase in price covered the lower "sales" of tags or not, but I think it is clear that it's possible to price yourselves out of the game.
I'm a free market capitalism guy through and through. But game and wildlife are to be managed for the public good, whatever that definition..... not to create the highest income for the state. (guide and outfitter services are 100% businesses though) The state agencies are not in the "business" to make money.
They are however forced into situations to bring in more funds by rising costs and budget cuts in their state, more pressure to be a self funded entity. Again, I don't have the numbers but would guess most if not all state game and wildlife agencies are not run solely by revenue from tag and license sales. State's are budgeting in many cases like they should be. The agency is put between a rock and a hard place.
I don't know enough of the situation to say if chicken or egg, but could it be the budget cuts that were expected to come forced their hands in raising fees and not "because" of the raised fees?
The fees were raised by the Legislature. The game dept can't lobby for, or against, any legislation and doesn't have the authority to raise fees.
TD, going from a 2 year draw to leftovers sounds like a positive for hunters? Hopefully that will happen with WY General tags too.
It'll be interesting to see what effect it'll have on the draws in WY. I don't think it'll make the WY Gen tag drawable with 0 points again. IMO, they'd have to raise the price of the regular draw to a grand. Again, I don't have a problem with the fee increase. Fee increases happen on semi-regular basis. IMO, they could have raised the special and regular fees another $100 and it wouldn't have made much of a difference. It's the damn point fee.
For hunters with means, yeah, likely a benefit. But as far as revenue to the agency I don't know if the increase in MT covered the loss of tags sold?
In the grand scheme.... for me it would work out to be not a big deal as my other costs associated with the hunt would still be substantial, or at least whine-able.... it would add a fairly small percentage. Like was stated above, a rise in fuel prices would probably have more impact.
I had 4 points for elk in 2009 and lost them do to not applying for the next two years. I'm probably not the one to comment on the economic viability of applying for their tags....
