If Helical is better - why Blazer vanes?
Equipment
Everyone seems to say helical is better when shooting broadheads - the logic makes sense. Yet - almost every factory arrow comes with blazer vanes, short and straight. Tv shows, kill pics on this site, lots of pictures of bloody blazer vanes. What am I missing?
(Ps. I used to shoot FMJ with QuickSpin QuickFletch, and now want to move to Maxima Reds but they come with Blazer vanes .. so I am a intrigued!) Advice - comments welcome!
Custom fletched arrows is part of what you're missing. For the past several years I've been shooting 2" Vanetec HP's (pretty much identical to blazers) and using an EZ-fletch mini. In a photo from a distance you wouldn't be able to see any helical on them but up close, looking down the arrow, there's no mistaking the heavy helical that's on them.
theleo +1
I use blazer with helical fletch
All my arrows have helical fletched Blazers.
+3 All of our arrows are fletched with blazers with helical. Go to your local shop, chances are they will have some of the shafts your looking for and will fletch them however you like,
+4... I go with bare shafts then put on wraps and helical and blazers as well.
I use the bohning helix jig to put on the blazers.
The first thing you need to realize is you can fletch your own arrows! Factory arrows are made with a straight or offset because it's easier to mass produce
It may be difficult to get heli on short vanes. Heli also is not the best for a WB. The clowns on TV shoot what their sponsors (Rage) tell them to shoot. No need for heli with an expandable.
VaneTec HP 2" (testing their new HP 2" HD) with 3 degree helical from the AZ Mini on a 3" wrap for the past 4 years....Great FBBH control and accuracy at any distance.....they wear like iron.
Mark
Frenchman. ...the blazers are not straight, but a 2 degree offset.
Here's what some 2" vanes with as much helical as I've ever seen on them as they rest in my quiver.
C:\Users\sethmcdowell\Desktop\2017-03-24 09.33.24.jpg And this is what it looks like from the steering end. C:\Users\sethmcdowell\Desktop\2017-03-24 09.34.38.jpg
This is what you see as they are in my quiver.
What others have said. I've used Blazers since they first came out. An Arizona Mini puts a great helical on them. No way I'd ever shoot BH's with straight fletch.
I think some folks confuse a true helical with a straight offset.
The reason I only shoot helical is non of my rifles have a smoothbore. A broadhead is less likely to plane off axis if it is spinning. End result might reduce velocity by a couple ft per second with a potential increase in accuracy. That is my story and I am sticking to it.
The WB rest "made" Blazer vanes the industry standard in a straight, but 2 degree offset configuration.
Five years from now, when drop-aways are the industry standard rest, longer & lower profile vanes fletched helical will be the new standard on factory fletched arrows. Be patient, it takes them a while to conform.
I'm sure I do Gary but the descriptions are fuzzy unless you have a jig that'll do both. Helical wraps around the arrow while offset does straight diagonally across the arrow, but I don't see how a vane going diagonally across an arrow can be glued on unless the base wraps around it.
theleo,
It is defined by the clamp that is used in the fletching jig. A straight clamp is...straight. A helical clamp is shaped like an "S".
The offset is the relationship of the clamp to the straight line of the arrow shaft. Either clamp can be used as either straight or offset. The more expensive fletching jigs can do any and all configurations. The cheaper ones are fixed, usually at 2-5 degrees of offset with either a straight clamp or helical.
Starting to make sense now - offset blazers = okay for mechanicals (but no good for fixed heads) helical = better for everything (but cannot get them from the factory)
dang - I just bough t a bunch of factory blazer-fletched Maxima Reds. ( and I shoot dropaway rest with fixed or mechanicals.. depending on the hunt)
Understood x-man, I've just never understood what the practical difference looks like on an arrow. I'm currently messing with a Vane Master and other fletchings to reduce how much helical is on my arrows. The clamp adjusts to a specific straight angel (0 degree-5 degree) but the clamp forms to the curvature of the arrow. So is it Helical or Offset? I know for practical purposes it's semantics, but it still leaves me scratching my head when guys say "no helical, only offset...".
I use a helical clamp on a Bitz for Blazers. I find that offset with a straight clamp doesn't give good vane contact especially with thin shafts. You (can) still "offset" a helical vane, it just follows the shaft as it wraps.
You just have to decide what the minimum helical/offset you need to produce stable broadhead flight. Anything more is only robbing downrange velocity.
FYI...when fletching helical I suggest using right helical and not left. You certainly don't need to adhere to L/R based on what hand you are anymore. Left will cause you to pull your hair out with points unscrewing unless you use a dab of loc-tite or bowstring wax on your threads.
so... this bring another question: am I the only bowsiter to ever purchase factory arrows with blazer vanes?
(this was my first time ever - had a sweet deal - but now starting to question whether it was a good move!)
As I've upgraded bows over the years, they've gotten faster and I started having trouble getting fixed blade bhs to fly consistent. I believe slower bows have more consistency with fixed blades..I started fletching my own arrows using a 3 degree right helical and I got my bhs flying like darts! I shoot 3, 4" feathers through a wb and I love the simplicity of it all. Like many have said, it's hard to tell if an arrow has a helical twist on it unless you're looking at it up close and from the right orientation. Not easy to tell at all from pics or on tv.
Yes to pretty much everything above. Your factory blazers will more than likely be "offset". The offset MAY be enough for you with fixed blades but helical will be better. I've used some "offset" factory fletched, but for the most part use the AZ EZ Fletch with the 3* helical. Though they usually always fly "ok" with the offset, the helical makes them fly perfect. The mini AZ does a GREAT job of putting a helical on a short vane.
Check the spin of your bare shaft and match the rotation with the offset/helical.
Newer Hoyt's commonly spin to the left while Mathews spin to the right for rh shooters.
Wapiti, like this?
Shoot bare shaft, note the spin, then fletch RH if spin right and LH if spin left? How does one check spin when shooting a bare shaft?
+1 Nick, I have the same question. How can I tell which way it is "naturally" spinning off the bow?
Just a hunch, but my guess is WB's being facetious.
How is a bare shaft consistently spinning?
Frenchman, fletch your own arrows and number them. Keep track of your flyers and you'll be way more happy!
Wyo,
I drafted my initial response as if he was but gave him the benefit of the doubt :)
I may have been had! Haha
Nick, if it's any consolation, I nearly responded with a "WTF" as well! lol!
Won't shoot any thing but a helical. 99% of the time it is a 2" Blazer. 99% of the time it is a 4-fletch.
It has been my experience for many years since the intro of the Blazer that a 4-fletch helical -2" Blazer will pretty much stabilize any BH you desire to shoot.
One thing your missing if you are not shooting Blazers is the hissing noise they make as they fly down range .
WapitiBob is exactly correct.
Unless you are in Australia, then arrows, toilets, sink and bathtub drains all go the opposite direction. Remember that if you plan on hunting stags in Aus. or NZ.
I fletch all my 2" stright..... I can't shoot good enough to tell a difference anyway.
Serious web heart attack. Mine spin just under 1/4 turn at 15 yards. Ask Broadwater or Frank Pearson how they determine helical direction.
WB may be kidding, but you can check the spin by putting 10" of dental floss with an end under the tightened field point. shoot the bare shaft and when you retriev the arrow it will have wrapped around the shaft in one direction or the other. It depends on the arrow not the bow.
Blazers are loud!
I'm shooting vantec swifts. Much quieter
Seems like every thread concerning Blazers has someone bring up the noise. I've NEVER had an animal react before the arrow hits...ever. If someone can explain how any hiss from a blazer creates more of an issue than the unnatural thump of a bow, I'm all ears.
I was just looking for some reassurance after being factory-fletched arrows... I am Learning stuff - never though an arrow without vanes would spin... I have to try that dental floss trick ... I am intrigued!
Shoot at 3' looking at the label position, then move back a few steps at a time.
Something I discovered year's ago that took me a while to figure out is you can have too much helical with fb broadheads. This may not be an issue with 2-3" vanes but it can be with 4-5" vanes. I too thought more spin was better until I started long range group testing. I don't have a the formula so a little experimentation will show you the sweet spot.
4 degree off set and helical the difference is very little. I believe hard helical is the arrow rotates 2 times at 20 yards out of most compounds and just shy of 2 times with 2 degree off set. Over distance as the arrow slows the spin rate decreases. It really does not make that much of a difference. If shoot the spin-wing vanes it increases a bit but again not that much. If the bow an arrow combo is properly tuned and you were using a shooting machine you could not tell the difference in accuracy, so I doubt any shooter could real;y tell the difference. Does anyone really think if it made that huge of a difference arrow makers would not fletch helical, they would as I am sure it would not be that much harder to set up to do so. I do my own arrows and use both a Jo-Jan and a Bitz with a hard helical when I shoot I see no difference in point of impact out to 60 yards. I will continue to use off-set. Scooby
I have both straight and helical clamps . I seem to use my straight clamp exclusively with short vanes. In practical terms there is almost no difference between helical and straight assuming both have a good offset. For most of us the shooter is the most uncontrolled part of most shooting systems.
I suspect you could use a modified version of Geroge Greenhills formula to determine twists rates in barrels for different bullets to figure what amount of helical to put on arrows to stabilize them . So some bowsite people who have some extra time should tackle this project . I have thought about doing it many times over the years but have not as of yet . So it would be great if someone would .
Helical on arrows doesn't spin them nearly fast enough to stabilize through gyroscopic effect like a bullet, which will make a revolution every so many inches at an incredible speed and rpms.
The way I saw it explained, what spinning a FBBH arrow does is try to equalize any planing effect of the broadhead. For easy numbers, say a 1" plane to the right at 10 yards becomes 2" at 20 and 3" at 30 etc. on downrange. By spinning the arrow it will plane 1" to the right at 10, 1" down at 20, 1" left at 30 and 1" up at 40. It will move downrange in a "cylinder" never more than 1" off center line instead of compounding the plane father and farther off line as a non spinning arrow would do going downrange.
The offset or helical also adds some drag which helps stabilize too. A PF really doesn't need helical as they don't plane. Much the same for a mech head.
Greenmountain....how do you come to the.conclusion there is no difference between straight and helical?
You may be on to something TD, I'm having great flight with the Exodus on my VAP TKO's, but I'm going to test some of the free spinning inserts from Ethics Archery on a few of my arrows, just to see if I can see any difference with FBBH's.
I am in the minority, as I don't use Blazer type vanes. Even though I use a drop away rest, I have problems with vane clearance with high profile vanes. I'm using 4 fletch 4 inch quik spins at a right helical and have no problems. Yeah, I know your not supposed to use helical with quik spins because of too much drag and velocity loss, but the deer don't know that. At whitetail range of 30 yds or less I don't miss the speed.
I'm shooting beman ICS hunters with factory fletched arrows. I cut two of the blazer vanes today while shooting broadheads with my field points at 40 yards. They are barely offset right. So, off set works well too. God Bless
TD put a field point in a bare shaft and set it up on end on a table and spin it . Does not take much spin to stabilize the arrow and keep it up right . So not sure you are correct .
When it is spun to fast it stays upright but walks on table as it slows spend rate it quits walking on table ( this is the rate of spin you want ) as it slows more it will wobble and fall over .
Physics say the spin generated by a helical fletched arrow is not close to being enough to have much gyroscopic effect for it's given diameter. What throws some off is it has nothing to do with how many times it spins over a given yardage.... but what the rpm's are. (The centrifugal or gyroscopic effects not only involve rpm but the mass distance (radius) from center, IMO a bullet and arrow are close enough to be somewhat fairly compared.)
A bullet at 3000 fps at say a very moderate 1-12" rifling will turn roughly 3000 times in one second. That's 180,000 rpm. At 300 fps in a hundred yards (1 second) how many times does a helical fletched arrow turn? It varied all over the place, but most came up on line with roughly about one revolution every 10 yards or 10 times a second, 600 rpm. .003% of what the rifle is. Double it, triple it, no matter, it's insignificant. Any gyroscopic effect is minimal at best. The test group being straight fletched FP/target arrows needing no helical to be accurate as there is no planing to account for.... and any induced rotation being incidental. In many ways just the induced drag of helical/offset would have a greater influence than any gyroscopic effect. Shoot a flu flu and see the stabilizing effect over a big ol bird wire head. Not much spin though.....
I'm pretty sure I remember Chuck Adams saying to do exactly as WapitiBob is saying to do and my response in my head was "how do you determine that?" He said you'll get slight rotation on way or the other. I kept thinking, "How can you tell 1/4 turn to the right from 3/4 turn to the left?" However, it sounds like the rotation is slight enough so you can do as WapitiBob suggests and start close and move back.
I listen when Chuck speaks about these sorts of things. However, this one seems over the top to me. Right helical outta an AZ EZ Fletch and all seems good enough for me.
Frenchman, definitely shoot what you bought first before fretting too much about whether your vanes are helical or offset or straight. You might be just fine. If not, it's not that big of a deal to strip and refletch.
I put absolutely zero stock in any statements to find unfletched arrow rotation in order to determine right or left helical. The only thing that causes an unfletched arrow to rotate is the oscillation of the string as the nock is released from it. This rotation is so insignificant that it's laughable. The fletching will begin to "try" to spin the arrow before it leaves the string, completely negating any "natural" rotation.
Now, if you were shooting fingers off the shelf......
Fletched with my Arizona Mini, shot through my Whisker Biscuit Pro. Couldn't be happier, even though they apparently sound like a bullhorn on steroids...I don't think the deer I've killed ever minded. And that's all I have to say about that! :)
...I'm thinking the bristles on the biscuit quiet them down on the way out! LMAO!!
Just put a RAGE on the end and you don't have to worry about the OTHER end! (Fletching ;-)
Really cause a 10yd ground shot (more like 25') with a 65# hard cam bow and only one lung and a dead deer finally found 100yds later really had me doing alot of "worrying"... 8^)
But I thought that Helical = Feathers only ------ Off-Set = Plastic fletching only
Blazers are loud!
I'm shooting vantec swifts. Much quieter
I have been using the Vantec swifts for 3 or 4 years now, I like them much better than the blazers.
