Non-refundable deposit
Elk
Our outfitter was sold and now the new owner is asking us for a 50% non refundable deposit so if we dhave not draw he keeps our cash until the next year assuming we want or can go the next year. Add to that we cannot gain a point in co so we could end up never having the points to draw, is this normal?
no, not for not drawing and keeping the deposit. look elsewhere.
Why can't you gain a point in Colorado? If you don't draw you'll get a point for $25 I believe?
Looks like I was wrong on the pp, I just looked at my book, you get a point if you do not draw
Do you want him to hold a spot open for you without a deposit?
And if he spends your deposit before your hunt?
Never ever would I send a deposit for an outfitted draw hunt prior to having the tag.
I think a nominal deposit is appropriate and should be carried over till you draw or drop out before the a yearly draw. However I think 50 % is excessive.
I think I'd make that decision based on the odds of drawing this year. CO is not too tough to know your odds. If your odds are poor, I'd say no - this is CO elk, not NWT Dall sheep.
Blacktail, no I am not expecting not to pay a deposit, I just want my money back if we do not draw, he wants to keep my $1500 for a year assuming I will be able to come back the next year.
Of course he wants to keep your money. If you want your money back, get it in writing. If it is not in writing, it doesn't exist.
Exactly, I want to tell this guy to kiss my a$& but we have hunted this area since 2006 and have two weeks left to apply, not allot of time to find other option, really bumming right now
I'd be more worried about what kind of outfitted elk hunt i get for only 3000 than the deposit risk
If I'm read you right your saying if you don't draw this year he will not give you your deposit back and must try/go with him next year.
A lot can happen in a year to make you not make it next year, so your out 1500. Things can even happen to the outfitter.
For me if he would not give me back my deposit if I didn't draw I would not book with him. That's the choice I would make. My dad Years ago got burned by an outfitter in Alaska on his deposit. The outfitters agreement state in a certain time if you found a replacement upon getting the replacements deposit,, you would get a refund. Well he didn't.
It's a choice you have to make, but it's your choice.
If he gives back the deposit, why even take a deposit to begin with. The deposit concept is to hold that spot for you. If he's holding it for you, he can’t sell it to someone else. Look at it from his point. He's trying to make a living and he certainly can’t if he doesn’t get firm commitments from his hunters.
I'd say, if you're not willing to absolutely commit the time and money, don’t send a deposit to begin with. Your lack of commitment shouldn't be his problem.
NO WAY!! I don't care how much you like the area, like some have said, a lot can happen in a year. This has nothing to do with "holding" a spot, this makes no sense. Good luck
DJ
Wow. I really find the attitude that you get a deposit back if something doesn't go your way amazing. I guess it takes all kinds, but I don't expect the outfitter/guide to take all the risk for me. I grew up about 40 years ago and expect to pay my own way for everything and that includes hunts.
This must be a great area
I really dont understand your thought process Bob, he has like seven camps and 4 weeks of booking them in a limited draw unit, the odds of all those hunters drawing is pretty slim I would think. The old owners never pushed archery season and the area cannot support this type of pressure and I told him that but he is seeing $ signs right now, he is not a hunter. In the past we gave the outfitter a couple hundred bucks now and that held it for us, if we lost it so be it but losing $1500 is different and to me trust is a two way street, we have a history with this business and we tip very well and are very low maintenance and he knows that because he told me that a month ago on the phone and now all of the sudden it changes when we get the paperwork in the mail, my gut is telling me this guy is going to burn us one way or the other but my love of this area and years of knowledge is also hard to ignore. We will figure it out I guess.
Do not book an outfitter with deposit until after the draw.
is he saying he has someone ready to put in a deposit if you dont? i would wait to see if you draw a tag then put a deposit in, a spot is probably still available?
NO WAY would i send it in without confirmation of getting money back if you do not draw. blacktail bob is wrong on this one IMO.
Bob are you reading his post right?? I'm not trying to be a smart ass. He's saying if he does not draw this year he must go with that outfitter next year. What if for what ever reason he dose not draw next year.
What it winter of 2018 is very hard and long and there's a large winter kill. Would anyone book with an outfitter if they knew the winter before had say 80% winter kill? The area I'm looking at this year if it had/has a winter kill I'm going to plan B.
Don't send the deposit. Do get in the draw. If you do draw you can then negotiate with whatever outfitters are in the area you want to hunt. You'll find a way to get there.
I have zero experience with outfitters for hunting, but I have to say that once you have given a deposit on anything it is generally non-refundable. Otherwise why give, or take the deposit in the first place? Why wouldn't it just be a verbal agreement between men? Once money is on the table, it generally doesn't come off the table. If you have concerns, just wait until you secure a tag to book your hunt. Or better yet go DIY! You will get more out of the experience, and it will mean far more to you when your done... JMO
Another thing to look at since it's Colorado is don't book. Put in for tag if you don't draw no harm and you get a point.. If you do draw and it sounds like you have no points and can't find an outfitter I think you can send your tags back for a refund. But I would look into that with the Co Dow before putting in.
I would not pay $1500, prior to having the tag. A small non-refundable deposit to hold a spot would not be out of the ordinary. But not 50% of the cost and $1500 when its not a guaranteed tag. That would most likely turn me off from using that outfitter even if I did draw the tag. I would make other plans.
Wow, hell of a business if you get away with it. I would look elsewhere.
The deposit isn't the real red flag, the suddenly dumping 7 camps of archery hunters in to an area you yourself say can't handle the pressure would do it for me. NO!
This guy just bought this area and is looking to get his money back quickly. He is getting as much back as quickly as possible. Gotta love capitalism.
I'd get a point, wait a year, then talk to some of the archery hunters he's crowding in there this year to find out if it's worth the money.
You might be better off putting your knowledge of the area to better use by hunting the elk that army will likely push out of there. I could write a book about great spots ruined by too many bowhunters at any given time.
I'm a fraud investigator with 30 years of police experience. This is not fraud but it sure smells like it could be a 1st step to get your money and run if things do not work out. Sorry...Blacktail Bob...love your posts and your input....but absolutely no way should PA Hunter give a 50% deposit when he has not drawn. Loading up the area with seven camps when experienced hunters are telling him about the area is another sign that things stink! Draw the tag first.
Hope it works out for you.
To many outfitters to be tying your money up like that. Draw a tag then start looking for an outfitter.Not only no but hell no. Outfitters r a dime a dozen.
I absolutely would not pay a non-refundable deposit in that instance. Refundable sure, but not non-refundable.
Seems unusual. Personally I wouldn't do it. We apply in the NM outfitter draw for the higher odds, and we have to sign a contract in advance with an outfitter, which then obligates us to go with that outfitter if we successfully draw. But no money is paid until after the draw. I believe that's generally the norm for draw type hunts, at least with NM outfitters.
May I ask what were the odds of drawing your CO unit with no points last year?
I absolutely agree, he shouldn't provide a deposit of any kind until he's sure he can do the hunt. Once he's provided the deposit, he should NOT consider it refundable.
Some of the donations I make to conservation organizations for stays at my cabins require drawing a tag. In particular, POW Island for black bear hunting. If it wasn’t a donation, I wouldn’t even take a deposit unless the guy had already drawn the tag. Since I donated the stay as a donation, I’ve been pretty liberal in allowing the buyer time to draw the tag.
If they don’t draw the tag they can continue to apply until they do. I’ve now been asked to allow the buyer to apply the donation to a completely different cabin rental, one that I have booked three years out. So, I made the initial donation to the conservation group and now I’m asked to also forgo revenue from another cabin rental. I’ve agreed to it, but I haven’t made another donation the conservation group in question.
I completely disagree with asking the outfitter to accept responsibility for the hunter’s issues. Accept responsibility for yourself. Once you make a deposit on a hunt, either do the hunt or expect to lose the deposit.
He says OR keep the deposit for next year provided we want to go. To me this implies you are now booking for the next year and holding a spot. Now the question becomes do you want to go next year and if not do you then get your money back? I understand a deposit on a hunt. Though 50% is steep. I even understand a non refundable deposit. As you are holding a spot that could potentially not get sold if you back out. Personally it sounds like a bad deal. 25% normally holds a spot. And you should only do that if you are sure you have a tag and can go. I'm with BouBound as well in thinking this is a really cheap elk hunt.
bob, sounds to me that if he draws the tag, he would go on the hunt. if he doesnt draw the tag, why should he still be bound to this outfitter year over year until he draws? he may not even be in business or the hunt could suck...
i dont understand your logic?
He shouldn't send the deposit if he's that worried about not drawing the tag and the policies of the outfitter. He should find another option more in line with his concept of responsibility or lack thereof.
I know there are a ton of folks out there who won't rent one of my cabins because of my adult, no nonsense approach to things. That’s fine, don’t send a deposit, Its simple. If you want to use the cabin, send the nonrefundable deposit. Can it really be any simpler than that?
In the past I've paid a deposit. Then, a given time before the hunt, the outfitter requires full payment. As I recall, the last elk hunt I went on was that way and I had no problem paying him full price before the hunt. I think it was about 6 months before the hunt.
After seeing this, participating in the debate and witnessing the overwhelming lack of responsibility reflected by the majority of Bowsite participants, I question whether or not I should have just paid my sponsorship fee. I think I'll start requiring full payment six months before the cabin stay.
No way. Look elsewhere. Do not commit to a hunt you do not have a tag for. Do not commit to a hunt with an outfitter you KNOW is placing too many hunters in the area. Draw a tag first, then commit. Furthermore, look into what it will cost you to turn your license back in in Colorado. Turning a tag back in should not be an option.
Hope Bob read the sponsorship renewal agrement closer than he read the OP.
I've been in business for over thirty years and have always required an initial $500 non-refundable deposit. This is not set in stone and I do refund the initial deposit if conditions require, i.e. health, too old and etc. The deposit is to use my outfitter number with a signed contract to go into the draw for my fully guided hunters. I have found over the many, many years that a lot of guys will put in one time and if they don't draw they go on to bigger and better things. It is kind of an earnest money deposit and if a person is serious about getting a wilderness tag in the Gila with our many years of service in that unit, we think a guy will want to stay in the draw 1-4 years for a chance at some of the big bulls we take out of there. I have between 20 to 30 head of stock I keep year round just so I can specialize a horse back pack in hunt. The drawing gets tougher all the time and the few landowner tags are selling for up to $12,500 for a rifle tag. I have potential clients whom absolutely hate to put this deposit up and some don't want to do so but many do. My business is mostly repeat and word of mouth from my old customers. If they don't put up a deposit they can move on. I have too much invested to do otherwise. Another thing most guys don't understand that the 10% outfitter pool of elk licenses was a hard fought battle and we still battle to keep it. We have a lot of time and money invested in the effort and this is why I reserve my spots for the hunters whom want hopefully take advantage of gaining a premium tag in a relatively short time period. No waiting 15-20 years like in Arizona, and we are in just as good of elk country, for the most part. Blacktail Bob has got this one right. Thanks Bob and tell Lisa hi for me. I don't take a deposit for all of my other draw hunts like bighorn sheep, Ibex, Oryx, deer and etc. I just have to have a signed contract showing what the hunt will cost if they do draw. The NM Game Dept. is very, very particular about the 10% rule and contracts and are cracking down on the clowns trying to abuse the system. My guides and I even have to carry a copy of the contract on each hunter we are guiding.
I
Good luck on a fully guided elk hunt for 3 grand. If you go let us know how it turns out.
"new owner is asking us for a 50% non refundable deposit"
I read both and understand the situation. Simple, if he doesn't want to commit to that degree find another option. If he thinks the area, the outfitter and the risk of the draw is worth it, he should pay the deposit. I don't think a 50% non refundable deposit is unreasonable in the least.
Like someone else has already stated, CO has a point system. He should be able to evaluate his chances in the draw and make an adult decision about it.
In states where there is no point system, I do agree it becomes more of an issue. Personally, I would not send a deposit under those conditions until I've already drawn the tag. Personally, I have paid a deposit for an Iowa deer hunt. I have a high degree of confidence I’ll draw the tag and do the hunt. If for some reason I don’t draw the tag or I can’t make the hunt, I don’t expect the outfitter to refund my deposit. What on earth would the deposit be for?
I agree with Bou. For $3,000 its probably pissing away the deposit and the full price of the hunt if it comes to fruition.
i dont have a prob with the deposit but the amount and if i dont draw a tag, id want my money back.
the nm one above seems different to me and id be more okay with rolling it over year to year, but if i didnt draw by the time i was done, id want my money back
either way, good luck
Maybe I miss understood, but I thought OP was ok sending $1,500 non-refundable deposit (and if he draws and backs out it's on him) but took issue with if he doesn't draw then the outfitter keeps the $1,500 for next year. If I understood correct, then NO WAY find a different guy. You're only committing for that year, not for each year until you draw. I've never heard of an outfitter keeping 50% of hunt carried over to following years. My bad if I was off base with his concerns.
DJ
PA. You have been hunting this area since 2006 but you didn't know you get a preference point if you don't draw?? Is it a unit that just started having to draw? If not, you should be able to nail down pretty accurately if you are going to draw. That said, I still wouldn't give a nonrefundable deposit until I was sure.
Are we arguing whether its fair, or how the outfitter should run his business? If the outfitter is up front and honest with his policy, thats fair and customers are free to use him or not.
If the point is that this is an odd policy, thats true but its no big deal. Opting to be a part of it is voluntary. There is no shortage of outfitters. A deposit policy you don't like, an inexperienced outfitter and a personal feeling that he will be over hunting the area are 3 pretty big red flags. There shouldn't be any.
Man I'm with some others. If he won't give back a 50% deposit if no draw I would look elsewhere. Red flag. A lot can happen. Yes I see how the outfitter thinks that he needs to be paid but come on. Who know what happens in a year and that is still a bit of change to loose out on. Maybe he can just hold it for a date that will work for you if the fol lowing year you can't make it?
Don't use that outfitter. You can find another one.
Bob, I don't get to why your getting so upset. A guy comes on here and asks a question and you got very upset that others post their opinion that you disagree with. Now to the point that you are saying that we are irresponsiable hunters and you question why your a bowsite sponsor and say the hunter needs to make and adult decision.. At one point your defending the outfitters policies and in another post your saying if he only charges 3k his hunts are probably not good. Do you know what kinda of hunt the outfitter is offering for 3k?,,, I don't!! Your upset and taking cheap shots at us posters, the op'er and the outfitter.
Bob step back and calm down.. I'm know that you have benefited from being part of the Bowsite, as I'm sure that just about all of us have one way or another. We are all friends here one way or another.. Respectfully Ed
I could see $500 but not $1500. I'd be looking elsewhere regardless of how much I loved the area.
been fishing all day, looks like my post got some attention today. To clarify for some. 1. Yes, I understood I get a point if I do not draw, I mispoke, getting old, sorry. 2. This is a 10 day drop camp, pretty much DIY, except they pack us in 13 miles and provide tents and check on us every few days, it used to cost us much less but he is increasing price but we are not too worried about that, always felt we were getting off cheap before. 3. We have no problem with a deposit, we do think 25% or less would be better now, maybe more after we draw, we used to pay $200. Our issue is with 50% being non-refundable and he wants it now, not after we draw. 4. We have never had issue drawing with 1 point in the past as a group of four but there was a big burn in our area last year so we think guys will be looking to get in there along with this guy advertising and trying to book all his archery camps so I DO think there is a risk of not drawing for the first time ever. 5. The fact that the guy knows us through the previous owner and we are good clients, yet still feels he needs to hold our feet to the fire is giving me a bad gut feeling about the whole deal.
sorry to fire up the crowd on here and I do appreciate the help.
I guess I read the OP better than others. As it turns out, the OP didn't really state what was actually going on. Its not a guided hunt, although he never actually said it was guided, he used the term outfitter rather than packer, and I assumed it was a guided hunt.
Under these new conditions, I wouldn't pay a deposit until I got the tag even if I was reasonably certain I'd get the tag. After I drew the tag, if this guy wasn't available, there would certainly be someone else to pack you in.
The primary point is that when you pay a deposit for a hunt, you should consider it non refundable. I apologize if that reasoning seems to some to be irrational from an upset point of view. I think its just common sense and common courtesy to the guide/outfitter.
By the way, I'm not upset. I'm continually amazed, however, by the prevailing attitudes here on Bowsite. Whether it be rifle hunting over Bowhunting or having common courtesy for someone engaged in the outfitting business.
To the real Bowhunters here on Bowsite, you can be assured I don’t rent to rifle hunters. I turn away guys who want to bring a rifle if they aren’t capable of killing a buck or two with a bow. Likewise, I turn away groups when one of them wants to rifle hunt. You can be assured when you rent my cabin it hasn't been rifle hunted with all the mature game skimmed off before you get there. My places are for Bowhunting only, but I do require a nonrefundable 50% deposit at the time you book. And now, I'll be asking for the balance three months before your stay. If you don’t think those criteria are fair, you should look elsewhere.
Again, not upset, just blunt, direct and to the point.
I don't think anyone read the op's original question.
bob, are your tags easy to come by? do you think if that person who booked with you couldnt come across a tag, you should be able to keep his money for a service you were unable to provide? how many years should that person continue to try to get tags?
FWIW Bob, I think it's totally reasonable for you to ask for full payment 6 months before the hunt in your case. Big difference with OTC tags - you should know you're going if you're going. I also think it's cool that you only rent to bowhunters; especially on Kodiak.
"I'm continually amazed, however, by the prevailing attitudes here on Bowsite. Whether it be rifle hunting over Bowhunting" Yep, everyday. Escpecially with comments like this. "To the real Bowhunters here on Bowsite, you can be assured I don’t rent to rifle hunters. I turn away guys who want to bring a rifle if they aren’t capable of killing a buck or two with a bow"
Hmmmm.........
"I don't think anyone read the op's original question." Because some "prevailing attitudes" dominated the thread as usual.
It is always so easy to take and spend other people's money, or tell them how to spend it.
Blacktail Bob +1
People don't seem to realize that this is a business and that most outfitters do this for a living. It's not a hobby so when you ask them to hold a spot for your group his expenses don't change. His livestock still have to eat and receive vet care. He still needs to purchase, maintain and repair equipment. He still needs to pay license and access fees. He still needs to turn a profit. You not drawing a tag doesn't change his expenses. It's obviously a good area or there wouldn't be a draw. He seems to be saying to pay half up front and he'll have a spot open for your group when you draw. Seems right to me. Honestly, from a business standpoint, I don't know how you could be successful any other way.
What happens if he does that with numerous groups? Say he plans on taking 2 groups and has 5 groups holding deposits and all 5 draw. Then what?
NativeOkie.. hahaha, would expect anything less?
"What happens if he does that with numerous groups? Say he plans on taking 2 groups and has 5 groups holding deposits and all 5 draw. Then what?"
With knowledge of the pressure in the area, tag allocation and draw odds someone who's familiar with the business could easily forcast demand and take deposits accordingly.
"Seems right to me. Honestly, from a business standpoint, I don't know how you could be successful any other way. "
The vast majority of outfitters do not require rolling non-refundable deposits and seem to stay in business just fine.
Most outfitters I've seen whose hunters at subject to draws don't accept payment until the tag is drawn - which seems most everyone on here seems to be onboard with.
As I said earlier, I don't take deposits from folks who have not already drawn a tag. There really is no need to do that because our bear tag draw occurs 18 months prior to the hunt taking place.
The exception is when I've made a donation. In that case, the cabin stay is subject to drawing a tag. I've made those donations and it really hasn't worked out well. I probably won't do it again.
Regarding the “Hmmm…..” that’s right; I don’t want rifle hunters at the cabins. I rent them to make a few bucks, that’s absolutely true, but the primary reason is to promote Bowhunting. Its not to promote hunting in general. I know many will say the usual “we all have to stick together” line of horse hockey. That’s fine regarding political and legislative issues, but it doesn’t mean I have to cater to rifle hunters.
The Colorado draw is in the beginning of April and the season starts as early as August 26th. That effectively gives the outfitter 4 months to book all his hunters and get deposits. If he promises hunters spots without taking a deposit and they don't draw there's a good chance he'll have to discount down or not work that year. I've never booked a draw hunt with an outfitter or a guide. If I did, and I didn't draw I don't think I'd be looking for my money back. I'd be looking to draw the following year. This is dealing with short term draw odds. I understand that businesses need working capital regardless of what the majority of people on Bowsite think.
Not technically true "the end". Applications for Colorado have to be submitted by April 4th. They don't even set the number of tags that are drawn until they have their Spring meeting in early May. That allows them to get winter kill data before setting quotas. Then the drawing is held in mid May and the results are posted by June 1st (normally can find out a few days earlier than that)
So about a 2 month window from finding out you got a tag until archery season opens. . Biggest thing you have to decide is whether or not you want to still go there if he has that many camps. But from what you have told us, I would say there is a 99%+ chance he will still have an open camp by then.
Focussing on Bob and Stoney's posts - if you are an outfitter with a solid reputation in a premium high demand unit, the market will allow you to get and hold that deposit so you can put that client in line. Curious Stoney what you do when the client draws but can't make a hunt say 4 years after his deposit. Sounds like you have a deep enough reserve client list that you can call the next person in line who actually drew and they get the hunt. Maybe somebody who didn't reserve gets really lucky and gets to book and do the hunt with you same year. This new outfitter in CO looks like he's trying to follow your business model, with some important differences. One, it isn't the Gila, two, he doesn't yet have a solid reputation, three, it seems he's packing hunters. So whereas you have spent many years earning your reputation as an in-demand guy, have built up your business, deliver on your promises, and have one of the premium hunt destinations in the country, I am siding with 'wait and see' regarding this new outfitter. $3k for a quality outfitted hunt does seem low.
My wife and I both have 20 elk points in CO. We figure that we will draw a unit 61 tag this year. The outfitter I'm dealing with requested a 500 dollar reservation deposit. If we draw then 50% of full deposit is due then the full amount due on arrival in camp. I felt that was a very reasonable arrangement. We reserved 2 spots on his list so we are guaranteed his services should we draw. If we don't draw this year (which we should) then we will have reserved 2 spaces for next year. I'm ok with a deal like that.
"but it doesn’t mean I have to cater to rifle hunters." Correct, it does not. It's good that your promoting bowhunting by doing that and it is 100% your decision, Bob. However my point was that you use rifle vs bowhunting as an example of one of the "prevailing attitudes" then go right in to having a prevailing attitude in your next post.
As for the line of horse hockey you mention, I do believe that we all need to stick together as I know many others on here do as well regardless of how exclusive you are with one weapon or another. Its as important now as it has ever been.
For give me, I forgot, this is BOWSITE.
Gobblers example is spot on... I would totally do that deal... It's very fair to all parties and I think most on this post would do it..
I would not do the deal the OP is faced with. Period.
"The Colorado draw is in the beginning of April and the season starts as early as August 26th. That effectively gives the outfitter 4 months to book all his hunters and get deposits." Unless there is there a regulation in CO that prohibits outfitters from booking clients and taking deposits prior to the draw, that isn't true.
"I understand that businesses need working capital regardless of what the majority of people on Bowsite think."
A lot of us understand a thing or two about working capital, and the point of taking a deposit isn't to provide working capital. If an outfitter needs to hold client deposits from year to year to keep their business adequately capitalized, that should be a huge red flag.
If half their revenue comes from deposits, where the heck else should they fund their operating costs from? They do incur costs prior to the hunt and the last time I took notice, outfitters also had families, homes and other normal living expenses to pay for.
"A lot of us understand a thing or two about working capital"
Apparently not.
The END- You would pay 50% ($1500) upfront and if you didn't draw a tag you would be ok with the outfitter keeping the $1500 until next year? What if you don't want to apply for that same tag next year? You have another hunt already booked? I think it's fine to pay a deposit for that year, but holding the deposit for next year and the year after isn't how an outfitter runs a business. I think many people on here are not reading the entire post and just commenting and not addressing what I see is the biggest concern (next year). The outfitter can hold a spot for you every year the same way, just send him the deposit for that year, if you don't draw he's and you are out nothing.
DJ
Straight Shooter
With all due respect, I'm not sure you understand the concept of a deposit. If the guy doesn’t draw the tag, he doesn’t get the deposit back. The outfitter keeps the deposit as the price to take the time slot off the market. Its kind of like a two way street, one party gives something up and so does the other party. The hunter gives up the deposit and the outfitter gives up the time slot. If the hunter automatically gets the deposit back, he's not giving anything up for the time slot.
I think the outfitter is being generous by carrying a deposit over to the next year. Under the scenario that exists by the OP, as later cleared up, I think he'd be crazy to pay a deposit unless he was almost certain he'd draw the tag.
Obviously, lots of guys on here don't go any many guided hunts! First rule is, if it's a cheap hunt, it's cheap for a reason. Second rule is, if the outfitter has spots available after the draw, then there are spots available for a reason, especially on elk, deer and antelope. All good outfiitters require a deposit, and if you don't draw, they should offer the option of a refund or holding a spot for the following year. Example, I paid a $12,000.00 DEPOSIT to hunt with the Randall's at Afognak Wilderness Lodge in Alaska for Brown Bear and I did not draw this year, Shannon gave me the option and I chose the refund due to my schedule for next year. That is an indication of a great outfitter who runs a great business.
redman, i can not see or understand how it could work any other way. there is no way i would ever pay a non refundable deposit.. if that means i never hunt some of these outfitters, fine by me...
its like paying full price for a LE tag and never receiving the tag or a refund.
Non-refundable deposits work for guaranteed tags only and each outfitter knows the draw odds when they got into the business. The good outfitters overbook based on odds.
Bob- A deposit in a "tough to draw area" compared to a "guarantee tag" (like BC) is totally different. If I'm going to BC (for example) the deposit holds my place, just as you described and if I cancel for ANY reason the deposit is lost. I agree 100%. Tough to draw vs. easy draw is a big difference. What if I wanted to go with an outfitter in the Gila and the deposit is $1500? If I don't draw the outfitter is out zero. He may have 100 guys putting in and may only average 6-8 draw per year. It's possible that I may never draw the tag for the Gila and wether I draw or not, the outfitter is unaffected. In this scenario it's not right if the outfitter keeps my deposit if I never draw. I do agree with you if it were a tag where the outfitter needs to actually "hold" the spot.
I think Redman's experience is dead on.
DJ
This thread is a one man comedy of errors.
Like I said several times already, I wouldn't pay a deposit if I had to draw a tag. I'd wait until I drew the tag.
"If half their revenue comes from deposits, where the heck else should they fund their operating costs from? They do incur costs prior to the hunt and the last time I took notice, outfitters also had families, homes and other normal living expenses to pay for."
You answered your own question - deposit are typically used to fund pre-hunt expenses. Businesses generally need some level of equity/capital as a cushion to fund operations until there is enough retained earnings (essentially profit) to provide working capital. No hunter should feel obligated to pay 100% of the hunt cost upfront because their outfitter wants both to cover his costs and collect his profit upfront.
This is pure speculation on my part, but it wouldn't surprise me if the packer in the OP doesn't have adequate capital following the purchase of the operation and is funding operating expenses by putting that on the backs of his clients through an non-market deposit policy.
Straight Shooter understands exactly how deposits are used across the vast majority of the outfitting industry in the US.
I've been fortunate to be able to draw 2 Kaibab mule deer tags and a unit 1 elk tag in AZ. I've used Duwane Adams each time. Because there is no way to really know if you will get a tag until the draw Duwane never asks for a deposit until after the draw.
Why can't you gain a point in Colorado? If you don't draw you'll get a point for $25 I believe?
I'm glad when I started applying for an AZ elk tag I didn't I didn't give an outfitter a nonrefundable deposit...It's been 15 years and I still have never drawn an AZ elk tag. If I ever do draw out in AZ and had the tag in hand I would give a deposit then no problem if I was going to hire an outfitter but until I have the tag.....No way. Too many things can change.
My deposit policy is more of an earnest money and opportunity to use my outfitter number too go into the NM Gila draw which gives somewhat better odds. I don't go to any shows and my business is all repeat and word of mouth. Many guys put in one year and after all the trouble getting contracts (necessary to go into the outfitter draw) never hear from them again. With all of the phone calls, paperwork and everything needed to convince them that if they are serious about hunting with us in our main trophy unit they will put in more than one year. If they have skin in the game they will more than likely put in until they draw. Most draw in one to four years. I've drawn almost everybody that has put in with me except I have a couple of guys from Michigan and a guy from Missouri that are applying again going on six years. They are the exception. By the way we do refund the $500 deposit for good reason, one being health issues, family issues (divorce) and so on.
Williamtell, Your example of a guy putting in for four years and finally draws and can't come the same policy would be in effect as bad health or some pressing reason. If it was just for his convenience or he drew too many other hunts he wouldn't get his deposit back.
One thing that makes it harder for an outfitter whom depends on the draw is that it is always a hard sell to re-book new hunters every year. I am fortunate to live off the lottery system, but it gets harder to draw enough hunters ever year and as a result we have to apply more hunters every year. It becomes a numbers game and where we hunt the wilderness areas (NM & AZ, I don't get a deposit in AZ due to the extremely bad drawing odds) and everything we do is packing in by horse and mule, it is an expensive proposition to maintain 25 head of livestock and all that goes with it. Not complaining mind you but I hate to hunt out on the roads with all of the ATV"S and rat race. I am not in the landowner permit game so my business depends almost solely on the draw system.
However I think charging 1/2 deposit on a draw is not right. A $500 deposit is skin in the game and assures that when they draw they are at the top of my list for guides of their choice and etc. I have about one out of five who have heart burn about the non refundable deposit but that is the way I operate and have for 31 years, although in the first 15 years it wasn't all that tough to draw. Abe of Abe & Son elk calls drew nine years in a row but that was in the 90"s and early 2000's. I've got several clients whom have drawn three times in a row the last few years. Luck of the draw!
My deposit policy is more of an earnest money and opportunity to use my outfitter number too go into the NM Gila draw which gives somewhat better odds. I don't go to any shows and my business is all repeat and word of mouth. Many guys put in one year and after all the trouble getting contracts (necessary to go into the outfitter draw) never hear from them again. With all of the phone calls, paperwork and everything needed to convince them that if they are serious about hunting with us in our main trophy unit they will put in more than one year. If they have skin in the game they will more than likely put in until they draw. Most draw in one to four years. I've drawn almost everybody that has put in with me except I have a couple of guys from Michigan and a guy from Missouri that are applying again going on six years. They are the exception. By the way we do refund the $500 deposit for good reason, one being health issues, family issues (divorce) and so on.
Williamtell, Your example of a guy putting in for four years and finally draws and can't come the same policy would be in effect as bad health or some pressing reason. If it was just for his convenience or he drew too many other hunts he wouldn't get his deposit back.
One thing that makes it harder for an outfitter whom depends on the draw is that it is always a hard sell to re-book new hunters every year. I am fortunate to live off the lottery system, but it gets harder to draw enough hunters ever year and as a result we have to apply more hunters every year. It becomes a numbers game and where we hunt the wilderness areas (NM & AZ, I don't get a deposit in AZ due to the extremely bad drawing odds) and everything we do is packing in by horse and mule, it is an expensive proposition to maintain 25 head of livestock and all that goes with it. Not complaining mind you but I hate to hunt out on the roads with all of the ATV"S and rat race. I am not in the landowner permit game so my business depends almost solely on the draw system.
However I think charging 1/2 deposit on a draw is not right. A $500 deposit is skin in the game and assures that when they draw they are at the top of my list for guides of their choice and etc. I have about one out of five who have heart burn about the non refundable deposit but that is the way I operate and have for 31 years, although in the first 15 years it wasn't all that tough to draw. Abe of Abe & Son elk calls drew nine years in a row but that was in the 90"s and early 2000's. I've got several clients whom have drawn three times in a row the last few years. Luck of the draw!
Sounds like Matt and a few others got it figured out. I'm willing to bet he has the reason right for the new outfitter wanting to do things this way too.
How the discussion got to "If they give a deposit, they should not expect it back if they don't come" is beyond me. I never read anybody but Bob suggest the OP was saying that. I think most figured it was a drop camp as well due to the cost, without the OP saying the same as well. How it got off to the rant it did is mind boggling.
I'd do like EVERYONE said and wouldn't drop a dime until I drew a tag. But, I shoot things with rifles too so, that may make my opinion irrelevant. :^)
