Cellular Cameras and Pope & Young
Equipment
With Pat's recent article I thought I would shed some light on the legality of using these cameras and entering your animal in the Pope and Young Club.
The Fair Chase Affidavit states:
"The term “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions: By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached with the exception of lighted nocks and recording devices that cast no light towards the target and do not aid in rangefinding, sighting or shooting the bow."
Boone and Crockett is a little more straightforward"
"For the purpose of entry into the Boone and Crockett Club’s® records, North American big game harvested by the use of the following methods or under the following conditions are ineligible: Use of electronic communication devices (2-way radios, cell phones, etc.) to guide hunters to game, artificial lighting, electronic light intensifying devices (night vision optics), sights with built-in electronic range-finding capabilities (including smart scopes), drones/unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), thermal imaging equipment, electronic game calls or cameras/timers/motion tracking devices that transmit images and other information to the hunter."
What recent article of Pat's are you talking about? I must've missed it.
Sorry-it was posted back in September. See link
So... the cameras that transmit directly to the hunter are not "fair chase" and are deemed ineligible to use if you want to put a buck in either books? Standard trailcams are good and considered eligible for B&C? Seems P&Y is saying if you are "locating" using a camera it is not FC. Correct?
Pope and Young will not allow an animal if you have used a cellular camera to transmit pictures to your phone or home. Standard cameras are ok for both organizations.
What if you are back in elk camp at noon and your buddy calls you from the up the mountain and tells you he killed a cow but he saw the herd bull bed above the meadow with the big wallow. Is it ok to hunt that wallow, kill a 390 bull that evening and enter it?
The way I understand it, a person afield cannot use anything electronic to tell another person the whereabouts of an animal and that animal be entered.
How about this one. You have an elk coming in and he has you pinned. You are behind a decent size pine but you can see the elk on your bow mounted camera's screen. You can't see his head but the camera can. When you see his eyes are shielded, you draw, lean out and kill him.
This is an interesting discussion. I've thought often about getting one of these cameras to try. In my situation I live about 2.5 hours from where I hunt whitetails. It would be great to have the pictures sent to my phone as I wouldn't be able to check the camera real often. So if it sends me pictures and I hunt a week later is my buck ineligible for P&Y even though the camera had no influence on when or where I hunted? Interesting discussion!
There is ALOT of gray area there-and I don't have the answers. Hopefully there is some discussion at the upcoming banquet and a more detailed description of when/if these cameras can be used.
If you set your treestand up in cell tower, like they do out west in windmill stands for pronghorn, would that be OK?
It's not that unlikely that wireless and cam technology advancements result in these types of cameras being the standard and even more affordable.
Glunt.... I agree. Just like the old VCR, DVD players, digital cameras and anything else with advancement, they will become affordable for everyone and more common place. That's when people will have to make a choice whether they want to, or not. Guess it boils down to if you want to enter animals or if you just want to kill them. It would probably cross a lot of folk ethics line as well.
If a person is aided by a camera that directly leads to them killing a book deer. Example: you are in one stand and your messages in your phone pings and there's a booner bearing down on a stand you can get to promptly without disturbance. Not fair chase? Personally, I wouldn't want to kill a deer that way. But, that's me and the method is legal in some states, correct?
When P&Y made the camera ruling, I didn't think there was ANY gray area. If you received the pic to your phone or computer without physically having to go check the camera...ineligible period. Basically, if you got a picture of deer transmitted to you by your camera and you kill that deer, it is ineligible for P&Y.
If you get a pic sent of a fork horn, don't enter any bucks from that area for a few years. Hard to say that 140" 3 years from now is him, but hard to say it isn't. Same goes for pics in March of a buck that already shed.
Here's how I see this one: Guys that are into entering their animals and following Club rules will not use these cameras. Guys that aren't into entering animals or following the rules will do one of two things: Not enter their record book animal based on the rule or lie, sign the affidavit and enter it. No different than the lighted nock issue. Prior to the Club approving use of lighted nocks, guys that were in to the Club and following their Fair Chase rules, simply didn't use lighted nocks. Those that did use them either didn't enter their trophy, or lied on the affidavit.
I just don't get the gray area here. Either you follow the Club rules and enter your animals, or you don't. Simple and not really that confusing.
When these cameras first came out I questioned P&Y on these very issues. I was told that entry would still be legal using them unless it was a situation exactly like Rick described. I think it was worded that if you are using them while in the field it would be illegal, but if you are using them and getting texts/emails away from area it wasn't thought of as any different than a normal trail camera. In other words if you are in one stand and a wireless camera effects your decision while afield then it would be illegal. I will see if I can find the email that I got from Glenn Hisey.
I questioned this then and still do, but where do you draw the line. That was back in my more vocal days of anti-corn piling and I wanted to know about a timed feeder being legal and that wasn't illegal either.
Long and short of what I was trying to express when questioning all of this is that P&Y cares a lot about the electronics on the bow or the 2nd half of the fair chase statement, but other than using radios is pretty accepting of electronics that aid in locating deer.
Maybe Jim or Ed can chime in on this subject. If they are illegal we all need to know. I will have two for sale. If the information I received several years ago I will have several more of the cameras because it is awesome to get pictures sent to your phone.
Mainly because it tells you if the camera is functioning properly.
Matt
No Mercy, I've never met Glunt, but from the last 10+ years I've been reading the Big Game forum and the Colorado state forum, if there's one thing I can tell you about Glunt with absolute certainty, it's that he's never "made himself look ridiculous" on these forums. From what I've read in his posts above he's simply posing valid questions about the Fair Chase policy.
What I would like to know is whether you speak for the official position of P&Y with regard to fair chase? I looked at the list of current board members and I don't see your name listed there.
The way you are stating this "rule" sounds like you believe that any animal a guy ever got pictured on a cell cam would be ineligible for him to enter into P&Y, regardless of whether the image was sent 5 minutes ago, 5 months ago, or 5 years ago, and regardless of how that information was used. That would be shocking news to a large number of P&Y members, in my opinion.
I'm sure eager now to hear the official P&Y position from Ed Fanchin or any others on the board.
I'm learning this is less "cut and dried" than what I thought it was from P&Y. B&C, on the other hand seems very straight forward. For some reason, I thought P&Y was following Boone's lead on this one, but maybe not. Anxiously await to hear Ed's response...
Sticksender-I am an official measurer. I do represent the club. I do not know the exact ruling in this and have messaged those who would. My apologies if I offended you or Glunt. I do not see where his hypothetical situations are helping, but will delete my post.
No apology needed. My intentions are not to clutter up the issue or harm P&Y. Just pointing out the slippery slope that technology brings. Its unavoidable that technology will advance and be a part of what people are using while bowhunting. P&Y will need to continue changing and clarifying as things go forward, or they could pick a definition of what bowhunting is and what fair chase is, and stick to it which risks becoming less relevant and less in line with what is legal during archery seasons. If they are going to keep changing, clearly written rules will be important. Money and status are sometimes attached to an entry. Those are two things that motivate some people to be pushing the edges of rules.
Glunt...I gotta admit, you took the "long way" in getting there ;), but your last post is spot on perfection in my eyes.
Well said Glunt. I understand that perfectly. I agree wholeheartedly.
Soooo.... apparently what goes on in Connecticut...... stays in Connecticut......... heehehheh....
I would guess PY would mirror BC in that you basically couldn't use a transmitting trail camera as they would "guide" you to the animal you photographed . Sure one could argue that a non transmitting camera could do the same but the rule is obviously in place to steer people from the technology .Trying to police intent would be a conflicting task so a simple moratorium on the technology would seem to work better
Just curious, not trying to stir the pot, but what about cameras like the Predator game camera they sell here on Bowsite? I have mine mounted twenty yards out, facing the blind, and control it from my iPhone. I have the camera on standby mode during the hunt and then start recording once the game comes into view. It's just recording the shot from a different angle and the camera app allows me to control the camera in order to save battery and memory. Was planning on using it on our bear hunt in May.
You guys are starting to see why some of us don't agree with allowing any electronics into the bowhunting season. It's a slippery slope.
I decided a long time ago to let my own ethics define the "rules" when it comes to fair chase. They are often more and rarely less conservative than P&Y's "rules". While I support P&Y and will continue to do so, I make will continue to make my own "rules" and believe all bowhunters should as well within the limit of the law obviously. If my interpretation of the "rules" makes my animals ineligible for the records program then so be it.
Brotsky... I agree 100%. I couldn't have said it better. There are many issues I have with the clubs interpretation of FC, but that's not my decision to make, for the club. My own ethics differ from some of the FC rules for a variety of animals.
Technology is ahead of the rules. If a guide takes a photo of a bull elk or ram on his cell phone and texts it to another guide who then guides the hunter to the kill the next day in that same basin, that animal can't be entered into the program the way the rules are written today.
Or if a guy takes a photo of an animal and shows it to his buddy back in camp, he is using a cell phone to assist in locating the animal. But if its a digital camera and not a cell phone? All digital cameras are "electronic devices".
I don't do guided hunts but know plenty who do, and they often have photos of the animals they've shot, taken prior to the kill. I'm betting a large percentage of animals entered these days are in violation under a strict interpretation of the rules as written.
The rule, as written, is open to a lot of interpretations for sure.
Example: I have one stand. I will hunt that stand opening day. I put out a trail camera and get photos of a book buck the previous day. Did the camera "guide" me to that buck when I was going to be hunting that stand anyway?
“Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal.”
Do these cameras give the hunter an unfair advantage over an animal? Yes they can. There are all kinds of scenarios where this technology can put a hunter in a position of unfair advantage. This does not mean that a hunter cannot use these cameras. It simply means that the hunter cannot use them and have an unfair advantage to take a particular animal and enter it in the Pope and Young Records Program. It’s pretty basic because there are many “what ifs”. It would be too easy to say you cannot use these cameras at all. Believe it or not, the Pope and Young Club is not the equipment police.
I have a Records Committee that consists of 11 very experienced measurers who know the P&Y Fair Chase rules well. If there is a particular instance where we have to deal with one of these “what ifs”, we make the decision.
I’m not too worried about these cameras. I’m really worried about the technology that doesn’t exist today and our simple minds cannot conceive it… Ed F
Thanks for the response Ed.
Very well said Ed. The common sense approach P&Y takes to many of these topics is one of the things I enjoy about being a member.
"Its unavoidable that technology will advance and be a part of what people are using while bowhunting. " Glunt
Couldn't disagree more Dan. There are still thousands of us who hunt with the same equipment that was being used when the Pope & Young Club was established and make no apologies for it. Just because the technology is there and can be adapted to hunting doesn't make it a desirable way to go about going after game. At some point hunters have to police themselves.
It is no different than the gun hunters who are buying into the idea that using a decked out sniper rifle& scope and killing an elk at 800 yards is still ethical hunting. Savage is even running an ad now trying to get guys to buy into the idea of belonging to the 1000 yard club.
I am aware of an outfitter that runs 40 bait sites complete with cameras and either a blind or a tree stand. He baits every other day or so and pulls cards when he baits. When he has a mature buck visiting a bait site regularly during day light hours and the wind is right he put a hunter in the blind or tree stand. He is using a camera as his primary determination on where to have a hunter be to kill a specific buck at a specific time. Do the bucks his hunter take qualify for P&Y?
if the Hunter is willing to sign the "Fair Chase Affadavit", then YES.
Thanks. So it does comply with P&Y's definition of Fair Chase.
Juspassin - I hunt with longbows born in my garage. Whats "normal" today passed up my preference of technology a long time ago. My point is that history has proven that even though the option to not use the latest technology is there, people in general will use it. If there is an advancement that increases the odds of success, only cost, availability, and regulation keep it from being used. I agree that its important to police ourselves. I have always thought it was counter productive to spend so much time, money and effort trying to eliminate the stuff that makes bowhunting so challenging/fun.
Compounds, releases, fiber optic pins, faster bows, more forgiving bows, more consistent arrows, rangefinders, crossbows, etc, etc. The list will continue to grow.
Im not a technophobe, I use plenty myself in other pursuits. I would rather bowhunting slow down or even back up a step, but thats not realistic.
From Karla -Glenn's daughter:
Randy Burtis is correct. From quickly going through my collection of "The Ethic," I found three instances in which it was discussed. In the Winter 2011 issue, page 22, Mike Kistler saying "Trail cameras and video cameras are allowed as long as the hunter cannot view the scenes while hunting or on a stand. The use of electronics to pursue or guide a hunter to game is a serious problem and unfortunately it is not illegal in many states." Then, in the Spring 2013 issue, page 66, there is an article by Dan Pedrotti, Jr. , reprinted from B&C's "Fair Chase," stating "If a technology decreases the game animal's opportunity to elude or escape detection (think trail cams with live time, cellular capability), you are over the line." From the Winter 2014 issue, Kevin wrote in his article "The Ethics of Communication Tools," speaking about communication tools "In an effort to get in front of that growing trend, and others, the Pope and Young Club enacted a Rule of Fair Chase stating it was not acceptable: 'to use electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursing game, or guiding the hunter to such game...' This broad-based statement covers many different actions, but it clearly established a principle on implements of communication as well. Use of two-way radios, and the like (i.e., electronic communications), for guiding/directing a hunter towards an animal, or in any way used in the hunt for an animal, is not acceptable."..."We simply touched on two-way radios and cell phones here, but this same discussion applies to the endless stream of communication-oriented products that are currently available and many, many more to come. Laptop computers, tablets and i-phones that communicate with instantly-downloadable trail cameras and drones with instant-access video cameras are examples. Perhaps that is one of our great challenges for the future protection of bowhunting - getting bowhunters to simply think about "it". In today's society, rules are hated, and are always going to be challenged or bucked. That too is a burden the Club must accept - the lowest common denominator may make us more popular, but it does nothing for accomplishing our mission."
p&y just holding out for a bigger check aka corporate sponsorship before they make a clarification allowing them to be "fair chase".
lou, thanks for that nugget of wisdom...
The Club has a tough row to hoe. The average age of members is growing older by one year every two years. "Point creep", as it were. Old dinosaur clubs like Comptons are racing toward extinction. If the Club doesn't evolve, in 20 years the Biennial will be held in a coffee shop.
If dinosaurs still ruled, P&Y would allow only trad bows and 70 yard ass shots at running deer would be considered "fair chase", with special awards given if the animal was recovered.
Does P&Y have a minimum Megapixel requirement? Just wondering.
Yes Steve-but only in Ohio for Crossbow entries
