How to reduce point on distance?
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
My point on is now 40 yards, which, as I am finding out, is a great form and shot process check. However, I am prepping for an Wyoming Antelope and Mule Deer hunt and I really hope to close the distance on the animals to within 30 yards. How can I reduce my point on distance without changing my arrow?
Ok. I'll ask the dumb question. What's a "point on"?
Point on-the distance at which one places the point of their arrow on the target and hits that distance.
I shouldn't have assumed everyone would understand. I am shooting a recurve bow. I would post this on the Leatherwall.com forum but I want serious replies.
gracias
You'll get a quick answer over on the Leatherwall Lou, I use a different " aiming" method.
Either change your anchor or try a shorter arrow (if you can). Since you're likely a gapper, easiest way will be to learn to alter your gap rather than goof with your anchor unless you really want to do that.
Higher anchor or Longer arrow
Listen to Lou and Glunt, or use a lighter arrow. If your point on is 40 yards, just how far are you wanting to shoot?
Duh, I meant "longer arrow". Too much time in the turkey blind today has reduced my brain to the size of a peanut.
Thanks for the explanation Lou. Compounder here.
Gee , that's odd , I used the search feature relating to your question and I found "serious" answers.
"Serious" as in target archery, or from highly successful western trad big game hunters? Please elaborate..
Just put a sight on the bow and go hunting!
That crack about the Leatherwall was just dumb. You think you're gonna get a better answer on a compound forum? LOL
This is the "Big Game" forum. Where actual trad bow western big game hunters live.
I'd suggest a much more complicated string-walking technique if he was shooting foam and paper at static targets from a stake. Keep it simple.
Seems like he's getting some pretty good answers to me. I don't ask questions over there anymore. How do you shoot Lou, split or three under? If you shoot split currently, then going three under would significantly shorten your point on. Good luck Bro!
One thing I forgot to add - if you're hunting pronghorns from a blind over water, you can pre-range your shots. Muleys will almost alway be at unknown distances so best to have the gap variables in the subconscious and conscience parts of your brain before you have the shot opporunity. Go hunting and have a blast!
Put an elevated rest on and raise your nocking point.
Hopefully you won't get too messed up.
Do you cant your bow or shoot vertical? That makes a big difference in how you adjust your process. Also, if shooting vertical be sure the pronghorn blind will accommodate that style.
Ooo.... Ooo..... does this have the potential to go on and on for hundreds of posts about trad sighting methods????
Raise your string nock up a little at a time to get it down. Or add weight to your point. Nothing wrong with the Leatherwall advice just needs to know who to listen to. Same with these compound shooters. There's BS on both sites.
Once that guy releases his STAR method to the public , all questions will be answered all problems will be solved, traditonal archery will be great again!!!!
FWIW, I'll elaborate, you could have found the answer over there as folks use the point on method whether they hunt in the East , West, North or South , target shoot or 3d shoot. I don't use the point on method so I recommended the Leatherwall in order to be helpful. So why is there a problem with trying to be helpful ?
My first thought was my point on distance is about 5 yards... At 3 I'm a little low.
But then again, somebody once said it best: "Which pin do you use at that yardage?" Answer: "All of them."
Sorry, just had to throw that out there. You are getting good advice above it seems, unless of course you are looking for some sort of magic answer.
String walking is a deadly method so long as you know where to walk as the animal is walking toward you before he presents that three second shot opportunity. I don't know of any serious western hunters who use string-walking on big game at unknown ranges. On the 3-D range where there's plenty of time to judge and the foam deer doesn't move, sure. Deadly. Used to be prohibited at many trad shoots.
Point-on is great too, for those who can make split-second gap judgments at unknown distances. Lots of different ways to get there depending upon your shooting style. Try all the different techniques suggested and see which is most comfortable for you for the type of hunt you'll be doing. Think about shooting at that big mule deer from different angles - steep uphill, downhill, kneeling, bent at the waist, bow canted because a rock or log is right below you, etc.. There is no "right or wrong" way.
Where do you hold your point at 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 yards? If you not going to change your arrow or broadhead weight you need to find out where you're hitting at these distances and make the adjustment to hit the spot.
I shoot compound barebow. A couple of ways to handle this.
Add weight to the front of your arrow. Con- It will change spine and broadhead flight will be different. And possibly not in a good way.
2nd (What I would do). Anchor different on string. I shoot 3 under. My point on is further than 40. At distances less than point on, I tie some waxed dental floss at points below nock set. In your case, (Assuming you shoot 3 under), find a spot to tie floss below nock set. I use a silver sharpie to mark the serving as a reference point before I tie floss in.
As Lou mentioned, antelope out of blind you should have known yardage references.
Only flaw with this approach is if you grab string at one reference point, and then suddenly critter turns and changed shot distance. But if you gap shoot, you should already have a pretty good idea of your trajectory. Adjust arrow point hold over/under accordingly.
OK Lou types faster than I do. Basically I described string walking, but with a "cheat".
I used to shoot barebow target archery. (Indoor). String walking was illegal for bowhunter division. Outdoor barebow guys string walk many times. They count serving strands. When hunting, I am not counting strands! (IE I am not doing math!) I want to know in an instant where to grab my bowstring. (I am a gapper on hiatus. As a gap shooter, you are always yardage estimating, so don't worry!)
Z, one advantage you have over a trad bow for walking is that trad bows without adjustable limbs aren't tillered for that. A little is ok, but then noise, vibration, string slap, and possibly erratic arrow flight can occur.
Great article in the recent Bowhunter about this very topic, written by a national champion and full time archery coach. Gets into really radical walking and anchor methods and why what works for some doesn't work for others.
Lou Sckaunt has left the building.
Trad aiming discussions remind me of the joke about the immigrant who didn't speak English, learned how to order "appa pie and coffee" at the cafe.
One day he pointed at the menu and said, "hambuga". The waitress nodded and asked, "Whole wheat or white? Lettuce, pickles, onion, tomato, relish, mayo, ketchup, mustard, bacon?"
The man sighed and replied, "Appa pie an coffee".
And you thought you'd get serious reasoned replies on this site. Jeesh.
Lou, Serious answer; 1.Longer arrow 2. 3 under/ higher anchor [how are you shooting now?] 3. Fixed Crawl FWIW, the best stickbow shooters in the world String walk. If you go to any of the trad tournaments the String walkers will kill all others consistently. Its so accurate, some of the trad tourneys outlaw it [thats another story!] Its inherently more accurate having the nok closer to your eye. No reason you can't do that hunting but it gets even easier with a Fixed Crawl.
I setup my recurves with a 25 yd fixed crawl...many use 20. You want to use the slot trajectory...or as the rifle guys call it, 'mean battle range' as when they set up their scopes. I use 25 as now my arrow is on the target from 15 yds to 35 yds....essentially the ranges I shoot most with my recurve. I hold a hair low at 15...and a hair over at 35 which still has me focusing on a fixed point on the animal.
You will have to shoot it to see what your actual holds will be dep on arrow/bow weight,etc. The key to this strategy is; its keeps you close on a hunting shot.
Search fixed crawl on youtube some good vids on how to set it up and tune for it. "The Push" goes into detail on this.
if you need more info give me a shout. Pic is random shots from 15-30 yds...and I can't shoot much with a bad elbow.
I think the OP has bailed because Lou (Jacq) pretty well covered it; if you want to shoot the same arrow to a closer point-on, you've got to anchor higher, which is essentially the same as shortening the rear sight on a rifle or lowering the peep on a compound.
______________________ Quick Archery/Language Digression: "Point-On" is the distance at which you put the POINT of your arrow ON your target and you will hit it. Comes from the French, who pronounced it Point-Blanc ("white point", because I guess they used light-colored arrows), but from that you can immediately see where the expression Point Blank Range comes from, and then you will immediately realize that most people are totally upside down on the concept, because it is generally (mis)taken to mean extremely close range, rather than the 50-70 yards that is typical for split-finger shooters.
And of course, if you anchor under your chin, then your POD will be longer still, which is probably why target archers anchor lower than bowhunters...
Thus Endeth the Digression _______________________________
But in addition to String-Walking, there is Face-Walking, in which you can anchor higher or lower on your face.
It, too, has been declared Illegal i many bare-bow competitions because, frankly (like string-walking), it works a whole lot better in competition than "instinctive".
I can toggle between a slightly higher anchor and a slightly lower one; I'll have to get to a range where I can determine the POD for each, but in the back yard at 50' I don't even think about compensating.
Best options are to learn how to gap (and judge or measure ranges)... or to just learn to shoot the line and then stump until you don't have to think about distance.
Or you can put sights on any recurve you want and do it that way. People have only been doing it for about 70 years, though, so it's still pretty controversial... :p
I wouldn't put sights on a longbow, though, unless it was an ILF to begin with. That's like scoping a flint-lock!
Wow! Didn't realize that question would generate such a voluminous response. I shoot 3 under. Have for about two years. I can't the bow at close shots and hold vertical at longer shots. I use point on now for all of my hunting. Using the "mean battle range" technique as someone pointed out. My hunting bows are typically set up for a point on of 10-20 yards (by this I mean the gap of the arrow +/- is within the elevation tolerances of the typical heart/lung on wild hogs and white tail deer). I accomplish this with arrow speeds around 165-170 fps. 99% of my shots on game is inside of 20 feet. Jaquomo is dead on correct in my thinking. I prefer the knowledge from hunters, especially western hunters. I will not know the shot distance until I set in the blind. Last time I was out west, the farthest the antelope watered was 25 yards (ranged). Shooting the same bow and arrow set up, I had practiced for 6 months from a ground blind in the back yard to 30. Got very good with my gapping and learned the trajectory. But when the rubber met the road, that 25 yards wasn't making me feel warm and fuzzy. NO experience in killing that far. Just foam in the yard. Luckilly I got a shot at a respectable Pronghorn at 19 steps and executed the shot. I was not using gap at that, at least not consciously. Hence the lack of "warm and fuzzy" at 25. I am interested in this string walking technique you mention and will research more this evening. The "fixed crawl" bendeer is talking about seems like the perfect way to go, as it could possibly give me my "mean battle range" at two different reference points.
It's nice to get advice from hunters. No offense to the fig newton loving, "longbow" definition arguing, "field archers" on the other forum.
And sorry for the delay, I work during the day.
I started shooting gap a few months ago, point on was 34 yards, and with the fixed crawl at 20 yards, I tore up the indoor league. And at a recent 3D shoot, gave the guy that usually wins something to scream about!!
Learning your fixed crawl is easy, and I recommend watching videos on youtube to learn and understand it. I still switch between gapping and shooting "instinctive", but love my accuracy with gapping.
I change my anchor when I switch from split to 3 under. Basically I move one finger lower on the corner of my lip when shooting 3 under so the arrow comes back to the same spot which allows my point on to be the same.
Razorhead, great perspective. Find a system that works for what YOU do and become confident with it, whether shooting animals or shooting from stakes for plastic trophies. And have fun, don't stress-out.
People often try make trad shooting way too complicated, when the whole point is simplicity. I think that says more about the person than the process.
I think Lou will figure out which way to go. Check out Jimmy Blackmon's video on fix crawl. He shoots all ways and is good at it. I'm not a compound shooter and shoot longbows and recurve.
I think Lou will figure out which way to go. Check out Jimmy Blackmon's video on fix crawl. He shoots all ways and is good at it. I'm not a compound shooter and shoot longbows and recurve.
You guys are aiming off the point of your arrow? I've never shot a Trad bow that way. I always focus on the spot I'm shooting at. More of a point and focus method I guess. Didn't know people did this.
I focus on a spot at 5 and 10 yards but use my point of my arrow as my distances increase and adjust point as to how far.
Even if you shoot instinctive....the gap matters....of course some of the instinctive guys will get their panties in a wad over that but its true. Instinctive guys are doing a subconscious calc of where their arrow will hit in relation to the arrows trajectory. [Edit- shooting 3 under with a high anchor is a huge difference over split with a low anchor- less distance-gap- less mental calisthenics]
When you shorten the Gap- by any of the strategies mentioned....its an easier and MORE ACCURATE calc that you do either consciously or subconsciously. Its that simple.
The fixed crawl is simple...and deadly effective. Its just another way to lessen that "Gap"...which is practically a 4 letter word to some of these instinctive guys!
Proof is in the puddin....shoot any aiming technique you want but lessen that gap and you will tighten your groups with a stickbow.
You will hear the "I've been shooting instinctive for decades, Blah,blah,blah....but put them up against a SW shooting a year... they get blown off the course and hunting wise they don't have the horrible misses of the instinctive guys when they are "Off"
Since we're off topic we might as well go further...
As Beendare said, "I've been shooting instinctive for decades". Almost. I've been shooting instinctive for 1-1/2 decades. When I shoot with gap shooting friends they beat me on the 3D course. When we compare hunting success I beat them. Maybe they shoot more. Maybe I hunt more.
I'm considering learning to gap shoot this year to possibly extend my range.
Try a few methods and shoot the way that you enjoy most.
I used to face walk for shooting 3D, I gap when hunting. Adjusting your point on distance is easiest done by changing arrow length. I prefer to find the optimum arrow and adjust my shooting to the point on, rather than the point on to my shooting.
I used to face walk for shooting 3D, I gap when hunting. Adjusting your point on distance is easiest done by changing arrow length. I prefer to find the optimum arrow and adjust my shooting to the point on, rather than the point on to my shooting.
3 under high as anchor as you can get Longer, heavier arrows move you nock point up, you can go as high as 7/8 to 1" a glove with the thickness of the finger stalls on ur fingers also will get the arrow closer to you eye
for me going from a 30" arrow 433 grains nocked at 5/8 had a 35 yard point on 32" arrow 580 grains nocked at 7/8 gives me a 22 yard point on
Is three under actually 4 under?? So confusing.