Slick Trick Broadheads
The Case FOR Mechanicals:
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
Ambush 06-Apr-17
PECO 06-Apr-17
Woods Walker 06-Apr-17
HDE 06-Apr-17
LINK 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
PECO 06-Apr-17
Beendare 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
PECO 06-Apr-17
sticksender 06-Apr-17
HerdManager 06-Apr-17
12yards 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
Glunt@work 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
carcus 06-Apr-17
razorhead 06-Apr-17
GF 06-Apr-17
HerdManager 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
LINK 06-Apr-17
WapitiBob 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
Beendare 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
LINK 06-Apr-17
Huntcell 06-Apr-17
liv4it 06-Apr-17
StickFlicker 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
LINK 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
wildwilderness 06-Apr-17
TSI 06-Apr-17
wildwilderness 06-Apr-17
TSI 06-Apr-17
LINK 06-Apr-17
Bowfreak 06-Apr-17
GF 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
LINK 06-Apr-17
TSI 06-Apr-17
LINK 06-Apr-17
svrelk 06-Apr-17
loopmtz 06-Apr-17
PECO 06-Apr-17
Ambush 06-Apr-17
AZBUGLER 06-Apr-17
Matt 07-Apr-17
stick n string 07-Apr-17
Kevin Dill 07-Apr-17
ELKMAN 07-Apr-17
LINK 07-Apr-17
Bowfreak 07-Apr-17
WYelkhunter 07-Apr-17
12yards 07-Apr-17
GotBowAz 07-Apr-17
Kevin Dill 07-Apr-17
APauls 07-Apr-17
LINK 07-Apr-17
LINK 07-Apr-17
M.Pauls 07-Apr-17
elkstabber 07-Apr-17
LINK 07-Apr-17
LINK 07-Apr-17
LINK 07-Apr-17
LINK 07-Apr-17
Ambush 07-Apr-17
LINK 07-Apr-17
Buck Watcher 07-Apr-17
Beendare 07-Apr-17
Ambush 07-Apr-17
Bowfreak 07-Apr-17
Bullhound 07-Apr-17
12yards 07-Apr-17
stealthycat 07-Apr-17
ohiohunter 07-Apr-17
Ambush 07-Apr-17
HerdManager 07-Apr-17
Kurt 07-Apr-17
stealthycat 07-Apr-17
Kevin Dill 07-Apr-17
Ambush 07-Apr-17
Trial153 07-Apr-17
GF 07-Apr-17
HDE 07-Apr-17
APauls 07-Apr-17
GF 07-Apr-17
archer 07-Apr-17
loopmtz 07-Apr-17
stealthycat 07-Apr-17
Backpack Hunter 07-Apr-17
Tonybear61 07-Apr-17
GF 08-Apr-17
Ambush 08-Apr-17
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Beendare 08-Apr-17
ELKMAN 09-Apr-17
ohiohunter 09-Apr-17
Backpack Hunter 09-Apr-17
Matt 09-Apr-17
tradmt 09-Apr-17
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Ward's Outfitters 09-Apr-17
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ohiohunter 09-Apr-17
DConcrete 09-Apr-17
stealthycat 09-Apr-17
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Ward's Outfitters 10-Apr-17
ohiohunter 10-Apr-17
ohiohunter 10-Apr-17
stick n string 10-Apr-17
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ELKMAN 10-Apr-17
AZBUGLER 10-Apr-17
SILVERADO 10-Apr-17
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ohiohunter 10-Apr-17
Charlie Rehor 10-Apr-17
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Brotsky 10-Apr-17
SteveB 10-Apr-17
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ohiohunter 10-Apr-17
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LINK 10-Apr-17
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ELKMAN 10-Apr-17
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spike78 10-Apr-17
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tradmt 10-Apr-17
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ohiohunter 10-Apr-17
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stealthycat 10-Apr-17
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wifishkiller 10-Apr-17
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archer 10-Apr-17
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TD 10-Apr-17
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12yards 11-Apr-17
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12yards 12-Apr-17
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PECO 13-Apr-17
12yards 13-Apr-17
ohiohunter 13-Apr-17
Ward's Outfitters 13-Apr-17
stealthycat 13-Apr-17
ELKMAN 13-Apr-17
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ohiohunter 13-Apr-17
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PECO 13-Apr-17
GMC 13-Apr-17
stealthycat 13-Apr-17
joehunter 13-Apr-17
Matt 13-Apr-17
ohiohunter 14-Apr-17
Tonybear61 14-Apr-17
ELKMAN 14-Apr-17
stealthycat 14-Apr-17
ohiohunter 14-Apr-17
PECO 14-Apr-17
joehunter 14-Apr-17
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Charlie Rehor 14-Apr-17
WapitiBob 14-Apr-17
ohiohunter 14-Apr-17
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ohiohunter 21-Apr-17
From: Ambush
06-Apr-17

Ambush's embedded Photo
Ambush's embedded Photo
...or, "...if it ain't broke, fix it anyway".

So, with a few threads still active regarding the use of mechanicals. And some threads that have little or nothing to do with MBH but still some making swipes at them, I thought I'd answer why I use them and a specific one.

I shoot NAP Spitfires because I like the big, three blade, cutting diameter. A big diameter has a few advantages, besides just the obvious of a big bleeding wound channel. That extra 1/8' or 1/4" may just be enough to cut that artery that you would miss with a smaller diameter head. Same reason I will only use a three blade as opposed to two blade. You simply have a better chance of cutting vital tissue. That's why folks that head shoot turkeys like giant four blade heads. Margin of error mitigation.

So why not use a big fixed head? I think it is generally accepted that a mechanical will be more accurate than a same-size fixed head when launched with less than perfect form. Like under actual hunting conditions. So to the folks that say they'd rather have a fixed head when the shot goes wrong and they hit shoulder bone, maybe that shot would not have gone wrong if your set up was more forgiving. Why did the arrow not hit where you aimed? You were obviously not aiming at the shoulder when you released. Quite possibly the culprit was arrow flight. If you're satisfied with your results using a 1 !/8" fixed head and form is not an issue, then you should keep using them. But, as stated, I want the bigger diameter.

"MBH's are a band-aid". Poor tune affects penetration just as much on a MBH equipped arrow as it does on a FH. The hunter that neglects bow tune is handicapping himself, no matter what head he shoots. The MBH shooter will likely be more accurate, in this case, so has the edge. But there is simply no excuse to head afield with equipment at sub par standards.

Quality? Lets face it, there is crap offered in both designs. Pick proven, quality heads, manufactured with good material, under strict controls. Longevity of a particular head is a sure indicator of reliability.

If you only hunt whitetails from close range stands or blinds, then head choice is far less critical. But if, like me, you go from treestand deer to spot and stalk moose and bear, or to the mountains for sheep, goat or caribou, all in a two month period, then head choice becomes for more critical. Different size animals, wind, extreme angles, body stress and a dozen other variables all come into play.

Should you shoot a mechanical? Only if you think it offers advantages in your situation. Good fixed heads have proven themselves over time and will continue to do so.

But to say there is no room for advancements is myopic. Of course you can kill an animal with flint, feathers, wood and sinew, but to use that as proof that "better" is not better is a poor argument. The horse and buggy was not "broken" but we fixed it and kept fixing the fixes until we finally had Toyotas :) We may be done there now!

Maybe Bowsite needs a forum named MBH Anonymous where we won't be judged. Where, when we stand up and say "my name is Rod, and I shoot mechanicals." And where the very whispered mention of the dreaded word won't evoke the "COC fixed head!!! COC fixed head!!!!" being rabidly screamed with spittle flying everywhere.

All in good fun. I'm just bored because I have to wait four more weeks to thread a couple of bears from the ground with my trusty Spitfires.

From: PECO
06-Apr-17
No such thing as "good fun" when it comes to broad head discussions. Good luck, I gotta get busy and touch up my COC's, turkey opens Saturday!!!!!

From: Woods Walker
06-Apr-17
Even if all that is true, a mechanical head....ANY ONE....has a 100% more chance of not opening than a fixed blade. The actual instances of a particular mechanical head in relation to how many are shot may be quite low, but the 100% comparison to a fixed blade is still true.

Now let's start the popcorn!

From: HDE
06-Apr-17
I think instead of a name used for registration, there should be an age used. I bet then you'd see a lot of kiddos trying to sell their sage "snake oil salesman" advice...

A COC will operate as poorly as any mechanical will if the arrow has crappy flight. No need to argue that.

From: LINK
06-Apr-17
I'm 33 and have no reason not to use a coc VPA. I wont use an expandable on anything bigger than a midwestern doe. Blade angle on most expandables are terrible. They make great turkey heads but I still use my VPA on turkeys too.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Peco; as we learned from a now (bowsite) departed super hunter, turkeys are Way harder to kill than elk, so I think you are flirting with disaster.

WW. If I always shot a slow, heavy arrow at close range, I'd very likely use a 1 1/2" + fixed, three blade head. Since I don't, I have to decide if the miniscule chance of my head not opening overrides the other advantages. I've decided it does not. Is there a reason that MBH's are not allowed in broadhead 3D competitions? The best archers, with the best form under the best conditions.

And I will always choose a very hard,Trocar style point over the cut to tip heads. I've seen too many curled tips from bone contact. And using your train of thought, one time is too many times.

HDE. I'll be 64 before the 60 day drying period is up for my spring bears.

And I might as well go all in and say that I much prefer the over the top mechanical to rear deploy. Might have to change my name to "neanderthal".

From: PECO
06-Apr-17
I turned 55 on Feb 26th. My COC will be a 3 blade VPA. The turkey will not survive that. I know this because the fall turkey did not survive the sharp 3 blade VPA sent from my compound. This time the said sharp 3 blade VPA will be sent from a vintage Browning Wasp recurve bow. Back to mechanicals, not only do they have a 100% chance of not opening over fixed blades, they have a 100% chance of opening early. WW miscalculated, a mechanical has a 200% chance of failure over fixed blades out of the gate.

From: Beendare
06-Apr-17
My top 5 reasons for NOT shooting a mech BH;

1) They are harder to BH tune for perfect arrow flight....and impossible to test each Arrow/BH combo...whereas the 2 or 3 blade VPA type heads can be tested, then easily touched up and in your quiver knowing that arrow flys perfect on the shot of a lifetime- no guessing....and anyone NOT Bh tuning is guessing.

2) the blade angles are bad on large dia mech heads which forces them against hide and hair....more of a chopping action than the slicing of a tapered fixed design. So the mech puts cheap stamped blades in the worst possible scenario for maintaining sharpness. So this blade angle not only dulls the edge more...but it also limits penetration

2.5) Mech blades are thin, weak- 3) Mechs limit my shot selection....I have more shot options with the better penetrating foxed designs. The addl performance from a strong fixed COC head can turn a bad shot location into a killing shot. The difference is amazing almost guaranteeing 2 holes every time and they get through tough tissue to vital organs better.

4) I don't have to think about my BH at crunch time; No glancing at the head to make sure blades didn't open...and with a fixed, I don't have to worry about blades opening in flight. [shoot a mech long enough and this will happen] My total focus is on the shot.....NOT on my BH.

5) Animals shot with a mech head know they have been hit...and take off like they are on fire. On the contrary with a fixed COC head many times they have no idea what just happened. I have had much easier recoveries overall with COC heads.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Peco, if you shoot one thousand of each head and one MBH fails to open, does that 200% mean any thing?

And if fifty of those fixed heads miss the vitals because of inherent design attributes, does that mean anything?

We proved in another thread that I'm no good a math, so I won't offer percentages.

From: PECO
06-Apr-17
Bruce, #1 is an excellent point usually not brought up on these discussions. A deal breaker for me is, I sometimes watch the clowns on TV, smoke their animals at close range with 4" of penetration using a mechanical.

From: sticksender
06-Apr-17
In the endless debates over broadheads, guys can take stuff too personally. Every conceivable question and debate position for this topic have been addressed time and time again. At this point, equipment choice is up to you. I don't allow the bias of others to affect the equipment choices I've made through experience, knowledge, and the test of time. And BTW that doesn't mean I shoot just one style or brand of head exclusively ;-)

From: HerdManager
06-Apr-17
Maybe it's an illusion or something, but is the broadhead blade facing the camera bent??

I have lost deer that I may have killed with a larger diameter head, but I also know I have killed multiple deer I would not have killed with a mechanical.

From: 12yards
06-Apr-17
I'm wierd. I use small diameter mechanicals. I think they are the best of both worlds.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Herdmanager. No the blade is not bent. They are mounted off centre, so it does look that way.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
And how do you "know" you would have killed those lost deer with a fixed head?

From: Glunt@work
06-Apr-17

Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Glunt@work's embedded Photo
I shoot these. I hate not fitting in at any camp.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Can't edit my last post.

I meant to ask how do you "know" you would not have killed those deer with a mechanical?

From: carcus
06-Apr-17
I love my mechanicals for deer and big black bear, IMO I would be at a disadvantage using a fixed, when I switched to mechanical bh's my wounding rate was pretty much 0, wow, my arrow was now hitting where I aimed despite my poor form in all the excitement, after a long cold sit in November. That said I still switch to a good fixed head for elk and moose

From: razorhead
06-Apr-17
I think this is a good thread, and the initial post is a good one..... I think the spitfire has been around along time for one reason, it works,,,,,, However what you fail to mention is set up needed for a mech......

I currently shoot with my Hoyt Carbon, it is set at 54lbs, and 340 fmjs' and I found that my 3 bladed WASP Boss 125 is what I need,,,,,, my set up does not provide the punch that is needed for a mech........

As far as tuning, my previous Matthews and my Hoyt, never had a problem shooting any bh, just have to have the right arrow and fletching set up,,,,,,,,

If I shot 60lbs or more, and had the right arrow, the mech I am sure would do fine

From: GF
06-Apr-17
Strictly speaking, Woods, a mechanical is INFINITELY more likely to malfunction.

From: HerdManager
06-Apr-17
Ambush,

I have yet to see a picture of a scapula that a mechanical head penetrated. I shot a buck a few years back, hit high in scapula. Broadhead penetrated the scapula, through front of both lungs, and BROKE his opposite front leg (bone broken in half). I only shoot 55 pounds, and there is no way a mechanical head does that. Period.

I do think mechanicals would have killed me a few more deer over the years, but I think they would have lost me more.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
"...a mechanical is INFINITELY more likely to malfunction."

This is exactly the type of hysteria that is injected into the discussion. By using terms and phrases that are meant to hyp a claim.

So how many failures per thousand does "INFINITELY more likely" translate to in whole numbers?

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Thanks, HerdManager. That's a good, real life example.

How come you hit him in the shoulder? What was the distance and circumstance?

From: LINK
06-Apr-17
I've also heard too many stories from guys I know ,that still shoot mechanicals,about mechanicals "bouncing off"deer on quartering shots. I don't want a big deer to come in giving my a perfect quartering away shot and have to wait for him to turn broadside. Tune your bow and shoot a good coc head and that's all you can do. 90% of guys that shoot mechanicals are looking for a band aid because they don't put the time in to tune their bows, the other 10% have bought into advertising.

From: WapitiBob
06-Apr-17
Do your research and make a choice.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
So Link, which am I? Lazy or stupid? A proper diagnosis may offer a cure.

And that big time archery guy that put his name on a mechanical recently. I think it was something like Ulmer Edge or something. Is he the 90% lazy or the 10% stupid?

From: Beendare
06-Apr-17
Well of course mech heads work.....better is a relative term.

Re malfunction....sure it happens with mech heads. My buddy...an ASA shooter at the time so there is no doubt he can SHOOT] lost a 161" whitetail to an arrow with mech head that was corkscrewing to the buck. We found out at camp that when taking an arrow out of his quiver about 30% of the time one blade comes out. [buck was shot a week later in rifle season]

I've seen/heard of a few cases like that over the years with friends and mech heads.

Mechs leave too many things to chance for me....but I get why guys like them.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Beendare. Ever hear of someone losing a buck with a fixed head? Seen or heard of a few of those over the years?

Not directed at you, but I'd like to separate wheat from cafe.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17

Ambush's MOBILE embedded Photo
Ambush's MOBILE embedded Photo

Just had to take a minute out to prep a burger made from a bull moose that died quickly from a single Spitfire MBH.

From: LINK
06-Apr-17
I guess because Brett Farve puts his name on Wranglers then they must really be the best jeans.

Ambush I let you decide that when eventually your broadhead fails. My broadhead otoh will never fail.

From: Huntcell
06-Apr-17

Huntcell 's embedded Photo
Huntcell 's embedded Photo

From: liv4it
06-Apr-17
I use to shoot the Spitfires back when they made the 2 blade versions. Never had an issue with them and killed several Elk, Deer and Turkey. I have been shooting the G-5 Montechs since they quit making the 2 blade Spit fires. I mainly went to the G-5s because I liked the idea of sharpening and reusing. That being said I would not hesitate using the Spitfires again.

From: StickFlicker
06-Apr-17
"So Link, which am I? Lazy or stupid? A proper diagnosis may offer a cure."

Ambush,

I don't think he claims to KNOW if you are lazy or stupid. He's just saying there's a 90% chance you are lazy, but there's still a 10% chance that your stupid. (-;

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Link, you didn't even try to answer the question. We're not talking about jeans, so why the deflection?

Let me ask another way. Why would a person that can win FBBH competitions, can shoot fixed heads way better than most shoot field points, a man with nearly unlimited professional resources behind him; Why would that man even think about using a mechanical, never mind doing it?

And is he lazy or stupid?

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Stickflicker, thanks for the clarification, I completely misunderstood him. Hey, maybe that's a clue toward the answer.

From: LINK
06-Apr-17
Making money selling your name isn't stupid or lazy as far as I'm concerned. Now choosing a broadhead because someone endorses it. Let me think about that one, I'm in the process of selling my Oklahoma ocean front property, but I'll get back to you real soon.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Ok Link, I'll just accept that you have no answer.

06-Apr-17
Where are the condiments on that burger? at least some deli mustard!

From: TSI
06-Apr-17
Ask an outfitter if they see any difference in lost animals when mechanicals are used?You might be surprised by the answer.

06-Apr-17
So TSI, how has it been in your operation?

From: TSI
06-Apr-17
I've never seen a case of failure from a mechanical and have yet to see any difference in lost game.Mechanicals do offer better blood trails and prove leathal more often than not on shots that are back of the diaphragm.

From: LINK
06-Apr-17
Ok ambush let me spell it out for you. Its hard for me to lend credibility to anything Randy Ulmer endorses. He actually endorsed a shirt that was supposed to make your aura (or something) hidden to wild game, blocking their sixth sense via some negative ion charge the shirt had. LAUGHABLE! Anyone who would do that loses all credibility with me. I think he would endorse anything if the money was right. Is this the only broadhead Randy has endorsed or just his current money maker. Randy is not lazy or stupid but the people that bought that shirt, well.... if that doesn't answer it for you I'll have to find someone to draw a picture.

From: Bowfreak
06-Apr-17
Broadheads are tools. I wouldn't try to cut firewood with a spoon and I wouldn't use a Killzone Maxx on cape buffalo. Pick the broadhead that is best suited for your setup and the animal you are hunting. Those of you that are hardliners with fixed heads only are missing out just as those of you that are mechanical only. I used to be fixed only but now I will use a mechanical whenever I feel it is practical and for me that is anything smaller than elk.

Those of you that are hung up on shoulders....How much area of a deers chest cavity does the shoulder cover? If it's 20% then the only time I wish I had a fixed would be if my arrow hits that area. For all other hits a mechanical is more deadly.

I do agree with Beendare in that when you hit an animal with a mechanical head they turn inside out but you typically will have a ridiculous blood trail to flow.

From: GF
06-Apr-17
"This is exactly the type of hysteria that is injected into the discussion. By using terms and phrases that are meant to hyp a claim."

No, just mathematically correct.

"So how many failures per thousand does "INFINITELY more likely" translate to in whole numbers?"

Well, if Beendare's story is solid... and a guy only noticed and corrected the issue about half of the time... I'd say about 150. I think it's less than that, but my deal is that whatever the odds were, it doesn't matter much to me when I end up holding the short straw.

So (JMO) failures per thousand is not the point; the point is that mechanical heads are generally designed such that they require a tremendous amount of force behind them in order to ensure adequate penetration, and the same design features that demand the high "energy" impacts ALSO place more strain on the structure of the head so that when the DO deploy properly, they are at higher risk of structural failure. So they are, in a sense, self-defeating. A COC head... (or any head at all, for that matter) the more efficient the design (in terms of penetration) the less force is inflicted on the structure of it, so the less strength is required, further reducing the potential for a structural Fail.

Either way, the designs kind of make their own luck.

It's just a personal preference; I don't like light, fast, high-expansion bullets and I don't like light, fast, high-expansion broadheads. JMO, the fragile loads limit your options. Treestand hunting for deer, it probably matters a lot less, but I have to ask myself if I am more likely to get a hard-angled shot at an Elk at shorter range, or if I'll be allowed to wait for a textbook broadside at twice the distance.

And the only thing that REALLY bothers me about MBH is that they are not marketed as the specialty tool that they are, but as a panacea for anyone afflicted by tuning issues, an inability to get into closer range, or lousy tracking & trailing skills.

"And that big time archery guy that put his name on a mechanical recently. I think it was something like Ulmer Edge or something. Is he the 90% lazy or the 10% stupid?"

Neither. He's the .001% who is in a position to make money off of putting his name on an archery-related product, and he decided to go where the money is.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
So GF, you're saying 150 out of 1,000 times the MBH fails to deploy? Fifteen percent?

From: LINK
06-Apr-17
.2 percent is .3 percent to much.

From: TSI
06-Apr-17
Mechanicals fail 15% of the time?That would mean I should have seen dozens fail over time but I've seen none but I've seen broken blades on fixed heads many times.Use what one wants and trust it.

From: LINK
06-Apr-17
TSI I don't think anyone has denied that there are fixed blade heads that are junk. How many times have you seen a non vented coc head machined out of a solid piece of steel break?

From: svrelk
06-Apr-17
Dan's a business man...... I was given a few... didn't care for them.

From: loopmtz
06-Apr-17
Wranglers are the best jeans!

From: PECO
06-Apr-17
I trust mechanicals as much as I trust the owner of a mechanical broadhead company who said he would send me some to try. I said I would pay for them if I was successful with them. I am still waiting.

From: Ambush
06-Apr-17
Link, the broadhead you describe would indeed be nearly indestructible and a great choice for the guy who shoots several whitetail and a dozen or more hogs per season, from a close stand or blind. Though I'm not a fan of cut to tip heads.

But that same head, in a 1 1/2" cut, would be a nightmare to tame in many western or mountain conditions. That's the problem with "one size fits all".

From: AZBUGLER
06-Apr-17
I'll hoping your club Ambush! Been using quality MBH's for over 20 years. Why? Because they work. Every time. At all distances and on all game I've ever hunted.

From: Matt
07-Apr-17
"Ok ambush let me spell it out for you. Its hard for me to lend credibility to anything Randy Ulmer endorses."

Anyone who tried to discount Ulmer and his accomplishments based on...basically nothing....isn't qualified to teach spelling.

Not even on the internet.

I've read more stupid $#!+ on this site by people who have no relevant experience and totally uninformed opinions on MBH's - whose uninformed opinions totally contradicts my actual experience with ~70 animals killed with them- to know better.

07-Apr-17
Herd, wish my 3 yr old wouldnt have crashed my iphone, resulting in loss of all my photos. The buck i shot this year had a square hole from my 1-3/4" 4 blade miniblaster in BOTH scapulas. 24 yards, obviously broadside. With all due respect, i know you kill a lot of deer, but if i remember the several live hunts correctly, your arrow placement this year was not great on a few of the deer you harvested(all resulted in recovery, i believe). So, as you feel you have the full handle on the MBH situation, maybe there could be some truth to ambush's wondering why the arrow didnt hit where you wanted. Again, if my memory serves, to paraphrase, you get very excited, maybe borderline too excited when the moment of truth comes along. That sort of thing COULD lead to, as ambush stated, poor form throughout the shot which a less forgiving broadhead would maybe be detrimental to accuracy. Now, we all know that stuff happens in the moment, and im not saying i hit exactly the spot i would pick out everytime when shooting at a deer, as i am sure that i dont. My buck this year being a prime example as i was just a touch forward. But my thoughts on your comments specifically are A) ambush said why HE shoots them, and others should shoot whatever they feel is best for them, not necessarily what HE uses. B) if you have never seen a mechanical penetrate a scapula, quite frankly, you just have not seen enough mechanical shot shoulders. Maybe your setup would not result in that, but i can guarantee you that its not just possible, but fairly common in my experience when my arrow has ever hit a near or far scapula. Certainly, it wont penetrate like a fixed blade in certain situations, but if my tip makes it out the other side, whats that matter? As is found in every one of these threads EVER, each have their credits and possible discredits. And both have been proven in the past and will be in the future. Both will result in harvests that the other wouldnt have due to its advantage over the other, and can result in losing an animal that the other may have gotten a recovery. I am positive that your BHs are quite effective as you wouldnt use them otherwise. And MBH may not have a place in your quiver, but ive never had your quiver on my bow, so paint with a brush a bit less broad when making a declaration.....

From: Kevin Dill
07-Apr-17
Ambush...I like this thread and your rationale. And speaking of rationale...

.

I think in the end, we rationalize the use of broadheads and anything else which might be the slightest bit controversial. We aren't always totally opinion-less and objective in the process leading to our decisions...quite the opposite. We choose our gear for a lot of different reasons and motivations. I know in my own case I have chosen equipment I wanted or liked and then later rationalized my decisions to use it. I see a huge amount of rationalizing about broadheads and much of it is logical...but still not proven to the level of being generally accepted facts. I don't see a lot of sense in the endless debating about mech vs fixed heads, but guys love to talk fuel injection vs carburetors too. Both work.

Here's my (ir)rational explanation for not using mechanical heads. Archery isn't a mechanical endeavor for me, and I have no desire to see my bowhunting success affected (positively or otherwise) by mechanical devices incorporated into my archery. My bowhunting sight picture has always held a good solid broadhead in there somewhere and it's as ingrained as the scent of string wax. I've evolved away from relying on things mechanical in my archery and bowhunting life, just as I've evolved more in the direction of relying on myself to solve a problem. I don't look for a better mousetrap usually.

I'm essentially saying we all have preferences and those lead us to the equipment we use, including broadheads. Once there, we defend and rationalize our choices if they are challenged. I do it too. I honestly try not to insult or indict the other guy's choices if they aren't like mine. Some hunters like completely b-t-t-w hunting rigs with every piece of tech available. Some go primitivo. Where they go off track is studying and judging the other guy's choices as inferior to their choice. And then you've got guys who infer they've been judged or insulted simply because someone else has a different or opposite opinion of what they like best. I have a strong belief this thread could go 100 or 200 posts and thousands of words...without changing a single mind or belief or behavior. Facts may change minds, but rationalizing can always be countered.

From: ELKMAN
07-Apr-17
I shoot mechanical s

From: LINK
07-Apr-17
"Anyone who tried to discount Ulmer and his accomplishments based on...basically nothing....isn't qualified to teach spelling."

I didn't discount Ulmer or his accomplishments. I'm simply not going to use something because he attached his name to it for a price. As stated before his endorsement or use of these broadheads means nothing. It's good for him to do so but that doesn't mean it's good for me, for different and obvious reasons.

As far as the what if your perfect form goes bad at the shot arguement I don't buy it. If your form is perfect in practice and at the moment of truth it isn't then your fletching will guide your arrow to a different spot regardless of broadhead choice. If your form changes that much at the shot your not practicing enough, it's hard to undo muscle memory. I do agree these broadheads are the best option for those with inconsistent shooting because the picked up their untuned bow, for the first time, a week before the season opener( the lazy).

From: Bowfreak
07-Apr-17
Kevin,

I understand the premise of your post but a lever provides a mechanical advantage. In reality you have decided to only use certain mechanical devices to hunt and that's perfectly ok as you use what you want and like.

From: WYelkhunter
07-Apr-17
"Ambush, I have yet to see a picture of a scapula that a mechanical head penetrated. I shot a buck a few years back, hit high in scapula. Broadhead penetrated the scapula, through front of both lungs, and BROKE his opposite front leg (bone broken in half). I only shoot 55 pounds, and there is no way a mechanical head does that. Period.

I do think mechanicals would have killed me a few more deer over the years, but I think they would have lost me more. "

I shot an elk about 10 years ago. 60 lb bow. 390 gr arrow, mechanical BH. I made a bad shot, it went through near scapula penetrated off side scapula about and inch. Elk was dead in 30 yds.

From: 12yards
07-Apr-17
The most recent study on a controlled hunt showed that guys using mechanicals had a higher recovery rate than those using fixed heads.

From: GotBowAz
07-Apr-17
Great post Kevin!

Id like to make one clarification to a few about the Ulmer heads. It was named the Ulmer head because Rusty Ulmer, Randy's brother designed them. Not because Randy endorsed them. Randy shot Rage prior to Rusty's heads coming out. Lets at least get the facts straight. The Ulmer head is no longer produced.

I shoot the 125gn NAP Killzone. I prefer that head for what I believe is the most robust design. I agree with a lot that ambush has said. Two things that bother me most is when I hear poor about penetration, and when the MBH was open out of the quiver. Mechanical need momentum, if your shooting them with a light arrow your gonna get poor penetration. Also, for those of you in the MBH came open in the quiver. What part of mechanical opening as designed didn't you get? Shove a MBH in foam its probably gonna open as designed. They make quivers for them now however if your going to shoot mechanical, always, each and every time check them to be sure they are closed when you pull it out. If you dont want to be disciplined to do that , nothing wrong with that, then you probably want to stick with a fixed head.

Mechanicals are hear to stay and when used correctly with the correct equipment, arrow weight, etc. they are devastating. they keep evolving and getting better.

From: Kevin Dill
07-Apr-17
Bowfreak...on that premise everyone here endorses mechanical-advantage bowhunting, if they have a working elbow. But of course you got my meaning and knew I wasn't speaking in absolutes. ;-)

From: APauls
07-Apr-17
One thing I hate about these debates is it seems to be a standard to link all mechanicals into the same handbasket. So the Rage Kore broadhead or some other 3" POS is looped together with my favorite trusty Rocket Steelhead, or other quality head. There is such a variance in mech BH's that you simply can NOT put them all in the same class, yet the argument is always made against all mech heads. Some guy bounces a magnus bullhead off a moose and all of a sudden all mech heads are garbage.

LINK who is in the fixed camp openly admits that there are junk Fixed heads out there, yet somehow those should not qualify for the argument. Really? Why? You group all mech heads into one group because of some "weird wounding story you heard" but when a fixed head breaks, no no that doesn't qualify.

I don't know why I even type in these threads cause everyone has made up their mind anyways. If you don't want to do some research and try something new, enjoy life with your head in the sand.

My favourite post has to be from HDE though, who (if I read it correctly) thinks what young guys write isn't worth taking to heart lol. Way to miss out on a ton of learning potential. I see just as much BS from all over the age demographic. Some guys try to sell you on the way they've done it, just because they've always been doing it that way. Then one day they look up from their typewriter and realize that editing something on screen actually might be more productive.

From: LINK
07-Apr-17
Apauls a hinged mechanical the deploys from the front is just that regardless of who makes it. On a quartering shot one blade can open first and do funky things. Its been documented many times. The spitfire opens from the front. The killzone would seam to be a better option as it opens rearward. Apauls I prefer the design of your head to that of the spitfire. It seams more likely to open, but a rubber band seams far from fail proof.

From: LINK
07-Apr-17

LINK's Link
Apauls watch this very pro steelhead video. Note the 3:00 mark. Exactly why I don't like front deploying mechanicals.

From: M.Pauls
07-Apr-17
Great post(s) mr. Dill!

From: elkstabber
07-Apr-17
Beendare made some great points which I have taken the liberty of copying below: 1) They are harder to BH tune for perfect arrow flight....and impossible to test each Arrow/BH combo...whereas the 2 or 3 blade VPA type heads can be tested, then easily touched up and in your quiver knowing that arrow flys perfect on the shot of a lifetime- no guessing....and anyone NOT Bh tuning is guessing.

2) the blade angles are bad on large dia mech heads which forces them against hide and hair....more of a chopping action than the slicing of a tapered fixed design. So the mech puts cheap stamped blades in the worst possible scenario for maintaining sharpness. So this blade angle not only dulls the edge more...but it also limits penetration

2.5) Mech blades are thin, weak- 3) Mechs limit my shot selection....I have more shot options with the better penetrating foxed designs. The addl performance from a strong fixed COC head can turn a bad shot location into a killing shot. The difference is amazing almost guaranteeing 2 holes every time and they get through tough tissue to vital organs better.

4) I don't have to think about my BH at crunch time; No glancing at the head to make sure blades didn't open...and with a fixed, I don't have to worry about blades opening in flight. [shoot a mech long enough and this will happen] My total focus is on the shot.....NOT on my BH.

5) Animals shot with a mech head know they have been hit...and take off like they are on fire. On the contrary with a fixed COC head many times they have no idea what just happened. I have had much easier recoveries overall with COC heads.

My personal experience using fixed broadheads from a quiet recurve are surprising to most people. I've shot through several whitetails that heard the arrow after it passed through them. The arrow bounced through the leaves. The noise in the leaves alarmed the deer and they've run TOWARD me after the shot. This makes tracking them incredibly easy. About a half dozen deer have done this and all died within bow range without needing a second arrow. Your results may vary.

Whatever broadhead you choose, keep it shaving sharp and verify that it will go where you want it to.

From: LINK
07-Apr-17

LINK's Link
Nap slingblade

From: LINK
07-Apr-17

LINK's Link
Rage hypodermic +p. 1 of the 2 out of seven expandables to not deflect on quartering test.

From: LINK
07-Apr-17

LINK's Link
Slick Trick viper trick. Amazing how a well built fixed head out performs a mechanical all day. Ok maybe not amazing but it's always refreshing too see.

From: LINK
07-Apr-17
Consider the proven deflection of expandables at angles. Now imagine being 20 ft in a tree and a booner coming by straight on closer the 20 feet to your tree and never giving you a broadside shot or a shot without a steep downward angle. You front deploying expandable guys let him walk or risk wounding. Not me ;)

From: Ambush
07-Apr-17
Kevin, if this thread makes it to two hundred, then I'll be at least three days closer to bear hunting. There are a few wandering sluggishly around town here now, but I like to go farther north, just to get out into the wild.

Yes, to some broadhead (gear) choice is almost religious or maybe more appropriately cultish. I prefer to use a more scientific approach. We all decide how much "tech" we are going to incorporate into our pursuit and in the end it should make us happy and give a deep sense of satisfaction. I know guys who are totally happy, fishing for a week, hooking up one wild steelhead on a flyrod. Catching ten big kings a day on downriggers would do nothing for them. I'm the "other" guy most of time. I flyfish trout when fly fishing catches more fish.

I have one old Browning recurve, one warf, and two compounds. They are all fun and useful for different reasons. And they each utilize different accessories to best advantage. The one similarity that we all should share is that when we release that arrow, we should be convinced that we have done all within our control to ensure the final result is lethally quick.

Some revel and find solace in simplicity. Others get giddy and find great satisfaction in putting a system together then watching it perform as they imagined. Some go watch the Indy and some wander the old car show.

I am definitely not trying to convince hunters to use what I do. And I believe I should be accorded the same respect and not chided and derided by those that have chosen "their" way. That's the problem with zealots of any persuasion.

From: LINK
07-Apr-17
Ambush I'm sorry if I chided or disrespected you. That was never my intent and thus refusal to give you a multiple choice answer to your question. Watch these tests from an obvious pro expandable guy. Even without all the horror stories it's all I need to see. Have a good day all and best of luck on your bear hunt Ambush.

From: Buck Watcher
07-Apr-17
I shot about a dozen deer with SpitFire - no issues.

I shot 2 deer with a Rage. Second one the Rage looked like a wrinkled pop can, with bend ferrule & broken blades. No Rages for me. Too fragile for me.

With today's quality string materials and tunable bows, I see no need to shoot a mechanical. I can get FP & BH to hit the same at 50 yards and that's all I need.

Not the first time I said this: I plan for a perfect shot. I prepare for a poor one. I shoot a sharp, fixed BH on a heavy arrow.

From: Beendare
07-Apr-17
Ambush, Animals are lost with ALL different BHs...how is that a rational for one or the other?

I gave reasons for my decision that you as a mech shooter completely ignore.

Let's just take one; how do you Broadhead tune with mechanical broadheads? You can but it's not as easy. My guess is you don't and are OK with leaving that to chance.

Which is fine BTW. ... i have buddies that still shoot mech heads and i don't want to tick them off! Grin

From: Ambush
07-Apr-17
Beendare. My Spitfires, Slick Tricks and Thunderheads all have the same POI. That is another irritating and denigrating presumption, that anybody that uses a MBH is incapable of tuning a bow/arrow set up. Or too lazy, or to stupid to know they should. I don't believe shortcuts are exclusive to mechanical shooters.

And the difference is; I'm not saying your head is no good and so don't have to prove that isn't. But you are saying my choice is inferior. If I can truthfully claim that I have killed and seen killed many dozens of a wide variety of big game animals with Spitfires without a single failure, why wouldn't I continue to use them, when I see appropriate?

The other difference is I speak specifically about one MBH. I never do and never will say "all MBH's" or "all FBBH's".

I am a pretty average shooter. I don't always have perfect form and even less under many of the hunting conditions I find myself in. I'd love the luxury of telling that animal to take a time out while I find a good solid, level footing. And maybe have it move up or down the slope, so I don't have to bend like that. Since that is not likely, I prefer to mitigate for the circumstance that will most likely occur.

And you can shoot different broad heads into different mediums at as many angles as you want. But the rubber hits the road where the broadhead meets the flesh. I've done my "testing".

From: Bowfreak
07-Apr-17
I broadhead tuned with fixed heads and then confirm my mechanicals are hitting also. So far this has always proven successful for me. I have shot at least 60 deer with a broadhead and only 6 have been with mechanicals. Shoot what you like but I'm going to be shooting Killzones at a lot of critters.

From: Bullhound
07-Apr-17
I use Swhacker 2" mechanical BH for turkeys and coyotes and nothing else. I did buy a couple pack of Rage just to see and test them. I honestly can't believe people use these on big game. But it does explain why they get terrible penetration. JUNK

From: 12yards
07-Apr-17
Remind me to never take a hard quartering shot on a piece of plywood.

From: stealthycat
07-Apr-17
"If you only hunt whitetails from close range stands or blinds, then head choice is far less critical"

LOL

Use a junk Allens Wal-Mart head then if its far less critical

From: ohiohunter
07-Apr-17
"Remind me to never take a hard quartering shot on a piece of plywood."

I always wait for the plywood to turn broadside.

From: Ambush
07-Apr-17
Stealthy, when you're done laughing, can you point out where I said it was OK to use Walmart junk heads? Typically when someone resorts to presenting something out of context to prove a point, it's because the point won't stand on it's own.

So, to you, there is no difference between shooting a whitetail, from a tree stand at fifteen yards, than slithering down the steep back of a coulee and quickly drawing, while on one knee, as a big muley buck pops out of his bed at fifty yards with a twenty mph crosswind.

The 3D course that you lay out would be thirty deer all at twenty yards, on a level grass field, 'cause it's all the same anyway. I think I may just lol a bit myself.

From: HerdManager
07-Apr-17

HerdManager's embedded Photo
HerdManager's embedded Photo
If you shoot an animal through both scapulas, I don't see how you are getting inside their chest. Scapula is very high and forward. I've hit one scapula on steep shots from treestands, but if you are on the ground hitting both scapulas means you hit incredibly high and forward.

From: Kurt
07-Apr-17
I've had fixed blade and replaceable blade heads deflection on critters with steep downward and hard quartering away shots. Mechanicals would undoubtedly have deflected as well. Be cautious of severe shot angles as they will turn an arrow......probably greatly variable depending on where the blade indexes up on contact with bone (or plywood).

From: stealthycat
07-Apr-17
Ambush no, there is no difference between the two when it comes to the broadhead failing on impact.

Mech heads fail, junk head fail. You want to spend $1,000 on a bow set up, $500 on clothes and gear, $750 on tags, vacation days, time away from the family, hours of practice and then have a mech fail to open or thin blade crumple ??

Broadhead choice is critical. Period.

Everything in your bowhunting setup from boots to clothing to stands to gear is designed NOT to fail - choosing a mech head goes against what most bowhunters are trying for - fail free equipment.

From: Kevin Dill
07-Apr-17
They should be called Automatic Broadheads anyway.

From: Ambush
07-Apr-17
Thanks Stealthy, you never disappoint. You are one of the very few that I would call a broad head head zealot. You hear the mechanical and just like a shark, your eyes roll back in your head and you slash and bite with abandon!

Lots of guys don't like mechanicals and think they suck, but they stop short of saying anyone who does is stupid and unethical.

I like you, 'cause at my age, I like predictable. Kinda like knowing I'm going to have a good dump right after my second morning coffee.

From: Trial153
07-Apr-17
Allen needs to come out with a mechanical, that would be the best for anything smaller then a Cape buffalo.

From: GF
07-Apr-17
I shouldn't have let myself get pulled so far into this one, but stealthycat covered it well; if I lose an animal, it will be My Fault. And you won't find me doing the couldawouldashoulda dance over using a big mechanical vs. the fixed-blade of my choosing.

What it boils down to is that I believe that it's more likely that I would experience a failure-to-deploy (or penetrate) issue than that I would have my fat pulled out of the fire by the extra cutting width.

YMMV

And FWIW, it's a hypothetical to me anyway, because my bows don't generate the horsepower that these things require in the first place.... But at least that means I'm not over-bowing myself trying to get there.

From: HDE
07-Apr-17
"My favourite post has to be from HDE though, who (if I read it correctly) thinks what young guys write isn't worth taking to heart lol."

No APauls, you did not read it correct(ly). But you did a damn fine job of reading more into it than needed.

From: APauls
07-Apr-17
^^^^ than I apologize. Sorry buddy.

Hard angle shots, I did the test on plywood myself and had no issues. Steelheads deflected same time as Magnus Stingers and VPA's which I consider both to be outstanding heads. That being said, plywood would be much more prone to deflection that an animal, whose ribcage curves outward, and so to hit the goods you're almost always hitting them without an angle issue, into a softer tissue.

If the angle gets so steep that I'm worried about deflection, you prob shouldn't be shooting any head. I've head just as many deflection stories with fixed heads.

From: GF
07-Apr-17

GF's embedded Photo
GF's embedded Photo
Aw, hell, why not?

Let's assume a 10" target diameter on your kill zone, with the axis of the arrow to decide In or Out. If you cut inside the 10" line, you're In.

And if you assume a 2" cutting width on your mechanical vs. 1 1/8" fixed.

Then the extra width pushes your In/Out line 7/16" farther from center; if the blades are aligned with the radius of that circle, they both extend a cut to a maximum of 9/16" inside of the 10" circle.

So you compare a worst-case-but-still-lethal scenario with each of the two heads; the light grey shading is the area that your 1 1/8" blade could reach.

The dark grey shading is the "additional" area through which your blade could pass such that you would have a Linecutter scoring hit. Seems like precious little up-side to me.

And of course, that's the pessimistic view of things. You can calculate the areas of all the different size circles and build a pretty convincing-looking mathematical case for how big of an advantage a 2" head really is (vs. whatever smaller size) PROVIDED that it opens and penetrates the way you'd want it to...

The hell of it is that people can talk themselves into believing just about anything they want to...

From: archer
07-Apr-17
I have a bunch of broad heads of all types. For some reason I always reach for the mechanicals. I don't know why other than I have a great deal of success with them.

From: loopmtz
07-Apr-17
You can't go wrong with Rage!

From: stealthycat
07-Apr-17
Ambush - I killed a doe with a Rage Hypodermic + this year. It worked fine. I have used Vortex, Puckett's, Shockwaves and killed deer with them. My Dad used Spirtfires.

They don't fail every shot. They DO fail .... they fail to open, the blades break off when a rock solid head like a Slick Trick etc wouldn't.

Yes, I can that with enough certainty, we see it every year from so many bowhunters and they swear to never use them again.

Shoot mechs if you want, they're legal. You can also lob arrows at 150 yards too, that's legal as well as shooting at running deer or shooting them in the butt. I don't recommend any of those, but you can legally do them.

A Slick Trick will do everything a mech will - it will shoot just as well, cut just as much with heavier blades that won't break and will never fail to be open. With so many solid broadhead choices out there I will never understand shooting a Rage etc.

Now there was one out there ... ? So many tests and it never failed to open nor did it break etc. Can't remember the name either, they don't advertise like Rage and they're not nearly as popular.

07-Apr-17
If you are going to claim a mechanical can fail because it's mechanical then you can't claim a fixed blade will give you just as good of flight as a mechanical because..you know...physics.

From: Tonybear61
07-Apr-17
"You can also lob arrows at 150 yards too, that's legal as well as shooting at running deer or shooting them in the butt. I don't recommend any of those, but you can legally do them."

I don't know where you hunt but "wanton waste" of fish and game in my home state is illegal. If you purposely lob arrows at extreme distances, bad angles, poor placement-just to get one out there, you are probably breaking the spirit of the law and likely breaking other aspects of game laws too.

A game animal is just too important to "experiment" with some new age but poorly designed broadhead to see if it works. Its on the burden of the hunter- to KNOW it works. That is why you need to become proficient with equipment you intend to use. That means those arrows that fly just like a field point in the sales ads, need to demonstrate they do just that. Buy a few extra and shoot them (not their practice head-typically designed differently). If you find through field tests they fail or cause issues get rid of them. I did just that with several styles of mechanicals, don't care to experiment again. I KNOW they fail, period. Do I have an occasional issue with COCs, yup but no where near the issues from mechanicals the short time I used them. Still hear and see stories of their failures from others too. Once you trail a deer someone else shot poorly with a mechanical and all the innards are hanging out that point will become even more clear. If they are so damn good wouldn't see or hear about the failures would we??

From: GF
08-Apr-17
Strictly speaking, Woods, a mechanical is INFINITELY more likely to malfunction.

From: Ambush
08-Apr-17
"...a mechanical is INFINITELY more likely to malfunction."

Then, using the same logic, a mechanical is infinitely more accurate :)

From: Ambush
08-Apr-17
HerdManager: In your picture and explanation it would seem that putting a broadhead through the scapula won't hit anything vital. So why would it matter if you can punch through?

From: Ambush
08-Apr-17
Edit, double post.

From: Beendare
08-Apr-17
Ambush, so much drama bro. I never said mech heads dont work.

And i said "its easier" for me to BH tune with fixed... i didnt say it couldnt be done with mechs.

Re effectiveness: I shot a dowhill 6 point bull through both scapulas with a coc fixed head.... and the bull just stood there for about 7 seconds ... lunged and fell over 8' from where i shot him.

The arrow went though that bull so fast and slick- he literally didnt know what hit him. ... and it went so far downhill we didnt bother going down to look for it.

Yep, IMHO a BHs design matters

From: ELKMAN
09-Apr-17

ELKMAN's embedded Photo
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The case for Mechanicals are all over my profile page. Just let results do the talking fellas...

From: ohiohunter
09-Apr-17
"Then, using the same logic, a mechanical is infinitely more accurate :)"

Are we shooting spots or 8" kill zones? Fred Bear says you don't have to hit a quarter to kill. I also know a guy who couldn't keep rages from planing. Everything is subjective and relative, to suggest the only component to accuracy is your BH is lunacy. No doubt a BH can be your undoing but too many factors under normal circumstances to blame all inaccuracies to a bh, fixed or mech.

BH competitions keep getting referenced, I've shot a lot of comp but never heard of nor had the opportunity to shoot in one of these highly regarded BH comps. Are they sanctioned by IBO ASA..etc.? Where do they hold the BH nationals? Any magazine coverage?

09-Apr-17
^^^teamusa.org

From: Matt
09-Apr-17
"Once you trail a deer someone else shot poorly with a mechanical and all the innards are hanging out that point will become even more clear."

That's part of the problem. You don't hear much about the ones that were hit in the same spot with fixed blade broadheads and were lost because they didn't leave any sign. The primary difference is the bowhunter who makes the bad shot with the FBBH isn't likely to try and make the BH as an excuse.

And folks who frequent internet bowhunting chat boards are much more willing to give those guys a pass.

From: tradmt
09-Apr-17
This stuff is hilarious.

A larger dia. head can leave more sign, but if it doesn't breach both sides than it probably won't.

A larger dia. head will be more lethal on a gut shot? Prove it. I still believe in shooting the best arrow/head combo I can for penetration, in my experience, narrow two blade heads do that better and they kill them just as dead in the gut, in fact the animal is much less reactive to a nice sharp narrow blade.

I have nothing against mechanicals, I used the spitfires for a long time, had two out of three blades fail to open on a turkey, shit happens, it's a mechanical device with moving parts. I think if I were to pick up a compound it would be 60# and I would build about a 600 grain arrow tipped with a 150ish grain grizzly and have the capability to shoot through the hip, gut, liver, lungs and break down a shoulder before exiting the deer. From 40 yards out.

From: Matt
09-Apr-17
If you can't fathom how having more guts outside the animal than inside the animal can add to lethality, I am not sure I can help. As Tony mentioned, it is an unaesthetic but very useful side affect of large cutting diameters.

09-Apr-17

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From: ohiohunter
09-Apr-17
So you're saying those animals would've been lost if it had not been for mechanicals? Amazing

From: DConcrete
09-Apr-17
I didn't see Steven ward say anything like that Ohio. I think he's showing the fact that mechanicals can and are very effective tools of the trade.

From: stealthycat
09-Apr-17
you can post all the success of mech head you want ... Puckett's Bloodtrailers were some of THE WORST head ever .... and yet they also killed a lot of animals

what % broadhead failure is acceptable for you ? 1%? 3%? 10% ?

Would you shoot an arrow that so many people have posted as failing? strings? releases? your sights? NO! Ya'll wouldn't - you want your equipment to be as foolproof as you can make it

but you shoot mech heads that suck at penetration when shots aren't perfect, that have long thin blade than crumple and fold, use more energy on impact and are known to not open.

that's the baffling part to me .... would you use boots that leak sometimes? rain gear? shotgun shells that sometimes don't fire?

google rage failures .... the evidence is overwhelming that they DO fail and by fail I mean the head doesn't open or breaks

From: DConcrete
09-Apr-17
No doubt there are rage failures.

There are also satellite failures, blades breaking, blades coming out.

I have snuffer ss blades that have broken at the weld from hits on animals.

I have vpa heads that have broke blades as well.

Does this prove that ALL fixed heads are crap? Does rage failures so that ALL mechanicals are crap?

Not even in the slightest!!

I don't shoot mechanicals, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out!

Every head is different, Every design has differences.

Some good and some bad. This goes for fixed heads and mechanical heads.

I'd never shoot a Toxic broad head. It's a fixed head. Does it mean all fixed heads should be judged by this one? Only if you're closed minded.

10-Apr-17
Ohiohunter

I never said that but since you brought it up , the broadhead I choose to use will out perform the broadhead you are using, angled shots, penetration, flight , durability , you name it my broadhead will win in every case. so I'm up to the challenge , ARE YOU

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
If you have that much time on your hands then by all means, which based on the time it took to post all those pictures you do. Qad exodus. Knock yourself out.

I'm looking forward to the YouTube vids.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
Dc. I haven't read a single post on Bowsite that says mechanicals cannot kill. So I'm not sure what a long series of pictures prove. Other than choking down some people's computers while they load.

10-Apr-17
Ohio, what computer do you have? So I know never to get one because it's prone to failure....:^)

10-Apr-17
I sure hope all these folks bashing mechanical broadheads, aren't using mechanical rests! ;-)

From: LINK
10-Apr-17
If a mechanical rest fails it will most likely be before the shot. I watch my rest come up as I draw. If it comes up the limb is going to pull it down. If my rest were attached to the end of my arrow I'd shoot a whisker biscuit. ;)

From: ELKMAN
10-Apr-17

ELKMAN's embedded Photo
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DConcrete: The whole "Rage failure" point is very stupid, unless you can name something that "does not fail"... (This Bull didn't like the Rage to much)

From: AZBUGLER
10-Apr-17
I guess if I thought there was a chance my mechanical heads could fail, maybe I wouldn't use them. Fortunately, after thousands of shots over the years, I've yet to see this happen so I have 100% confidence in my equipment. Even though my boots do sometimes leak....

From: SILVERADO
10-Apr-17

SILVERADO's embedded Photo
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Mechanical-Grim Reaper, dead in less than 30 yds.

From: LINK
10-Apr-17

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VPA 3 blade coc. Dead in two yards.

From: tradmt
10-Apr-17
Jesus Pete! You guys need to smile! :)

From: PECO
10-Apr-17
oops

From: LINK
10-Apr-17
Pete it's hard to tell but there's a half hearted smile there. I was fixing to go clean the cull buck I thought I wanted to shoot. That must be why I was so excited.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
"I sure hope all these folks bashing mechanical broadheads, aren't using mechanical rests"

It took me a long time to suck it up and use a drop rest, KISS kept telling me no but the skinny shafts kept telling me yes.

I have to admit it is very entertaining to read through this giant pissing contest every couple of weeks.

If mechs were half as good as their advertising this thread would be on leatherwall.

10-Apr-17
For many years you used just one broad head and defended it to the bitter end. These days think of broad heads as a golf club in your bag where you use different ones for different hunts. There are so many great heads out there and there is also absolute junk. Sometimes the same company will have one broadhead that is terrific and another one that is junk. Pretty soon all top broadhead companies will be selling both styles. That says it all right there. C

From: stealthycat
10-Apr-17
sigh

If you think long thin blades are as good as heavy sold ones .... I don't know what to tell you on that. Its like saying a fillet knife is as good as butchering an elk as a heavy bone knife.

Mechanicals use more energy to penetrate, fact. That's why so often they suck at penetration, they go in in 6" or 8" or 10" ...... that sucks.

Mechancials can fail to open - you can't say that about a fixed head.

They can cut wider than the average fixed head but if you want wide, shoot a Landshark etc - there are options if that's what you want with none of the mechanical negatives.

Do they fly better? From untuned bows yes. Lots of good broadheads on the market that fly like field points and are fixed

Mech's are legal - very good marketing and lobbying my manufacturers and they're likely here to stay.

I killed a doe with a Hypodermic last fall - it didn't break, it opened, it cut a hole like any other broadhead would have. Would I use a hypodermic again? Its not my first choice no - my first choice is a Slick Trick

From: Brotsky
10-Apr-17
I shot a turkey yesterday with a Rage Xtreme 2.3" cut. It was a frontal shot right in the X, full pass through out the back end. The turkey was DRT obviously. When I retrieved my arrow (due to the angle it was maybe 15 yards past the turkey, just lying on the leaves, it did not stick in the dirt) I was very saddened by the condition of the head. The point was curled over and the blades were nicked and hashed. I could only imagine what they would look like if they had encountered real bone of any kind. I'll still shoot turkeys with big mechs but man that experience did not make me a believer.

From: SteveB
10-Apr-17
Almost like determining which brand of toilet paper is best. Or roll over or under. They all work, just different.

From: Ambush
10-Apr-17
Just to clarify, because there is some confusion:

2+2=4 is a "FACT".

"it's a fact your broadhead sucks" is not a "FACT". That's an opinion.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
No way buddy! Toilet paper can make or break each and every day... down to the hour or even minutes! I'd shoot a mechanical before I'd compromise on my TP! Cloud unscented wipes, heaven for your bum.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
FACT, very few people ACTUALLY care

From: LINK
10-Apr-17
"2+2=4 is a "FACT"."

Ambush that's what I always thought too. Man did I miss a lot of problems because I didn't use the correct formula to get the right answer. This whole fixed mechanical thing must be the math teachers fault. Ha Ha

10-Apr-17
Ohiohunter Which broadhead from Quad are you using, I'm assuming the states you hunt in allow Barbed broadheads?

From: ELKMAN
10-Apr-17
Stealthycat: Anytime you want to compare results, you just let me know... ;-)

From: Ambush
10-Apr-17
Whenever this subject comes up, a few will become FIX-ated on the fail-to-open aspect and try to base the entire debate on that one point. But there is more to it.

In the original post, I stated that if I always limited myself to twenty yards or less shots, then I would likely use a large, three blade head with a trocar-like point. I like big holes.

But, as also stated, that's not what I encounter on a lot of my shot opportunities. Longer ranges, adverse weather conditions, poor footing, steep angles, physical exertion, high pressure and just pure adrenaline charged excitement.

Now for the guys that are stacking arrows and busting nocks at sixty plus yards with their FBBH's. WHY did you fail to put your arrow right where you wanted it on that shot at a buck or bull? I've read dozens and dozens of post on here about guys that made a "marginal" shot on big game with fixed heads. And the common phrase that pops up is " that's hunting" and that's supposed to excuse it. WHY, if you're "busting nocks all day long", are you hitting high, low, shoulders and guts? Did you lose that perfect range form that you sighted your broadheads in with?

Now a question. Why do you put fletch on the rear of an arrow? What would happen if you put fletch on the front to and why wouldn't you do that?

There's maybe two ways to look at dealing with shots gone off target. Shoot a fixed head and hope to punch through that bone you hit unintentionally. Or shoot a head that is more forgiving of less than perfect launch and hit closer to where you were aiming.

If we all hunted with Hooter Shooters, there would be no debate. Or if we all just went to crossbows. But for a guy like me who has to practise just to stay average, I have to be realistic and use a strategy that will maximise my outcomes to the good. That means not shooting "extreme" bows, working a bit harder to cut the distance, and using a broadhead that is forgiving of my shortfalls.

There are a few super shooters on here that will tell me I should take up gun hunting because for me to bow hunt shows a lack of respect for the animal. And I will definitely take that suggestion seriously from anyone that has killed as many or more big game animals as me, without ever wounding and not recovering one.

From: spike78
10-Apr-17
Steveb that's an easy one. Angel Soft toilet paper. The only thing in life I won't skimp on is good TP.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
There's the arrogance I was expecting, never fails. Keep up the good work Dbag. I swear if rage had a D%^k he'd suck it.

Wards, yes sir. I shoot the barbed version.

From: Treeline
10-Apr-17
After over 35 years of bow hunting and guiding for big game from Alaska to Argentina, I have seen a lot and learned a little.

The shortest tracking jobs on most animals shot with arrows have usually been due to them having a very big hole in them. Having a very big hole on two sides helps. 3- and 4- blade broad heads open the biggest standing open holes.

The best penetration across the board is a two-blade. The problem with 2-blades is poor blood trails. Have seen a number of animals lost and some very long tracking jobs with 2-blades, even with complete pass-thru shots and holes on both sides of the animal. The single-bevel broad heads do seem to put down a better blood trail and penetrate just as well as a double bevel - maybe better on bone.

I have seen quite a few mechanical broad head failures over the years - particularly on elk. Based on the failures I have seen in the past with mechanicals on elk, I do not recommend them for animals the size of elk or bigger even with a high draw weight compound.

That said, I have seen a lot more fixed blade failures than mechanical broad head failures - primarily because I have been around significantly more fixed blade broad heads. The majority of the fixed-blade failures were due to the blades popping out on replaceable blade type heads, but I have also seen quite a few solid broad heads bend (especially the vented type) or break at the ferrule.

In order for a mechanical broad head's blades to deploy, there has to be a loss of energy that has to result in reduced penetration vs a fixed blade. Additionally, the wider cutting surface will also limit penetration vs a narrower cutting surface. The blade angle and size will also be more apt to glance off at a steep angle than a narrower profile. Modern compounds generate plenty even at lower peak weights and with reasonable arrow mass behind a mechanical broad head, there is more than enough energy to push the broad head deep enough to provide a quick kill. The lost energy to deploy the blades and push a larger cutting surface through an animal tends to make them less than desirable for a traditional bow.

Newer mechanicals are probably tougher than many of the earlier models. If the blades do deploy and do not shear off, they will open a big hole and result in a short tracking job.

Mechanicals do tend to be easier to tune and are more accurate off of a high speed compound. If you feel more confident using a mechanical broad head, then use them.

From: ELKMAN
10-Apr-17

ELKMAN's embedded Photo
ELKMAN's embedded Photo
Here's another Bull that couldn't handle the Rage... ;-)

From: ELKMAN
10-Apr-17

ELKMAN's embedded Photo
ELKMAN's embedded Photo
Javelina's think the Rages are a "joke" too... LMAO

From: tradmt
10-Apr-17
Arrows go where pointed when the bow/arrow combo are well tuned. Period

The only time I personally felt I had the wind push an arrow was a 50 yard pronghorn shot with a Spitfire on the end, hit him in the femur, I assume, and he survived.

Other misses, and there have been plenty, were with Spitfires, Muzzy, Thunderheads and various others but none of them were due to the head design, it's just me f'in up the execution.

When I went to mechanicals it was because of the 'big holes' and, " flies like a fp " advertising and what I found was that although they worked quite well, they were a solution to a non existent problem and if they fail even once it just wasn't worth it to me.

After switching to recurves and building arrows for maximum penetration I have found that when I place a grizzly or TuffHead properly, not only are the animals dead just as quickly but they often don't travel as far because they tend to just walk or trot away. With mechanicals and trocar tip type heads the animals seemed to react more to the impact.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
Ask and you shall receive, marvelous!

From: SteveBNY
10-Apr-17
Anyone saying to not shoot a mechanical because it is more likely to fail in function because of the complexity, had better not be using a compound instead of a recurve - or even a spear.

From: tradmt
10-Apr-17
What if it's a takedown recurve? :)

From: stealthycat
10-Apr-17
"I was very saddened by the condition of the head."

why?

thin blades, a weak design ........ and you were very saddened ? you should have expected it

SteveBNY if you are using a brand of compound known to fail over and over I agree - you'd be crazy to use one.

Rage and most mech heads give less penetration, use more energy, are known to not open at times and have long thin blades that bend/break

Will they work? Sure they will. Do they fail often enough to be a concern? I absolutely think they do

From: stealthycat
10-Apr-17
I love this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxP6JrRv6Ks&t=60s

it shows just how poorly mech's like Rage penetrate. I'm not satisfied with 6" of penetration on perfect shots ... because I know when shots are NOT perfect you're going to lose deer

do the animals die? I assume the video's haven't lied and those were the only shots - and I've said this a 1,000 times on perfect shots a junk Allens from Wal-Mart works.

what happens when the shots aren't perfect AND the heads open AND the blades don't break etc

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
Hahahhaaha.. classic drury crap. Gut shot and still couldn't pass through!

10-Apr-17
"I killed a doe with a Hypodermic last fall - it didn't break, it opened, it cut a hole like any other broadhead would have."

Soooo...you used a mech and it performed as it should. Others have posted that they use mechs without issue, and have the kills to back it up. Yet you continue with your rant against mechs. Kinda like a guy that smokes, then preaches about the ills of smoking. What am I missing?

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
You obviously don't know the power of addiction.

From: LINK
10-Apr-17
What your missing is that the guy that smoked a few times might have noticed, even though he got his nicotine fix, that his lung capacity got worse and he felt like crap. Now he's trying to convince others that haven't smoked it's bad and not to drink the cool aid or in this case smoke. ;) That's what it looks like to me anyways. I wouldn't take advice on not smoking from someone that's never tried it or at least seen it's affects on others.

From: Ambush
10-Apr-17
"You can lead a whore to culture, but you can't make her think".

Er, something like that.

10-Apr-17
My analogy has nothing to do with addiction. My point was hypocrisy.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
I know... its all BS just like these threads... meaningless. Aside from teasing a few people off the fence these threads accomplish little to nothing.

These threads remind me of the other day when I was trying to piss in the wind and not get my boots, well it was so damn windy the stream went every which way, even went up.. all of a sudden I wasn't so worried about my boots.

10-Apr-17
What are you talking about? Everything gets settled on the internet!

Come on hunting season!!!

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
It ain't gettin here any faster, but don't you worry.. this topic will last a long long time. I wonder what it was like back in the day when compound bows performed at about the same as long bows? Granted they didn't have the interweb to post the same dead elk pic100x, but I wonder what it was like sitting at the round table for these type topics.

From: Glunt@work
10-Apr-17
Back in those days you had to stop and put in a gallon of gas at every station you passed on the way home just to show off your trophy. Then a week later when the film was developed you pinned up a pic on the bulletin board at the local shop. Broadheads actually weren't that different. There were some good ones and some junk.

From: stealthycat
10-Apr-17
"Hahahhaaha.. classic drury crap" and a fine example of how mech's work, did you watch all the video? over and over, no passthrough and 20" of shaft hanging out

wyobullshooter me using the mech was part of an agreement I made. I don't doubt they work most of the time. It didn't fail - but nobody ever said they fail 100% of the time have they? I didn't get passthrough but I didn't expect to - 63 pounds pull and 502 grains and a mech that uses a lot of energy to open and such. i actually kind like the Hypodermic design - but why would I want to continue using it when i can use so many other broadheads that are built stronger and sharper and fly just as good with no reports of failing to open and blades crumpling etc?

I've killed deer with Shockwaves, Vortex ... another kind i cannot remember the name of now. Fixed heads, 2 blades, 3 and 4 blades, reshapen and replace. I've killed animals with recurves, longbows, crossbows, old compounds all the way to the newest latest and greatest. Wood shafts, graphlex shafts, old aluminums, new aluminum's, carbons, carbon aluminums, 5" feathers, old vanes, new vanes ........ my point is I'm not new to this game.

Mech's use more energy Mech's can fail to open Mech's have long thin blades for the most part that can bend/break Mech's don't normally give great penetration as you can see in the above video that Rage people produced to show the amazing devastation of those heads

I believe mechanicals have been responsible for a lot of lost animals because they failed to open, blades bending, poor penetration that resulted in no blood trails etc. I see no advantages to shooting them over a Slick Trick and I see many advantages (as I've listed) to shooting fixed over mechs

I can change, if a mech is every designed that's Zwickey solid in performance, Thunderhead sharp, Slick Trick Tough etc ......... I'd consider using them. Until then, I see no use shooting them because they perform in several areas worse than what i'm already shooting.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
I know the broadheads weren't all that different except the mohawk, but the discussions and arguments about the bows is what I'm curious about. Basically the introduction of compounds and how well they integrated into the sport.

From: Ambush
10-Apr-17
"phobia: the irrational fear of something"

There is at present no known cure for mecha-phobia.

From: wifishkiller
10-Apr-17
I wish these threads required an accuracy test before anyone posts. Fix blades will not shoot like a mech just like a mech will not shoot the same as a field tip..... Run them threw a hooter shooter and thats all thats needed. Granted it your 40 yard groups are a paper plate you'll never see a difference anyway.

10-Apr-17
Yes the shot is high, 1/4" of the blade caught the top of the lungs, centered a rib on the entrance and exit. if not for a big cutting head the bull would have not been recovered. Look I produce broadheads, I will be the first to say i would never recommend, someone shooting less than 60 foot lbs of energy using one of our 2.5" cutting heads. Every broadhead has its place, the mistake most hunters make is not using the broadhead that matches the game they are hunting, Its no different then rifle hunting. I wouldn't use a 95 grain bullet to shoot a bull elk, I admit there are some great fixed heads on the market and I have had the pleasure myself when I was a kid and my kids With using them. Its always a pissing match about mechanacle vs fixed, But we all have to admit some are junk and some are great . In the video the advantage was having a big cut, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYPV73Ke40

From: wifishkiller
10-Apr-17
Steven you can bring experience and common sense to these threads, its against the rules.

From: archer
10-Apr-17
Well this thread has been beaten into the ground but I can't resist. Mechanical BH's have been around for at least 20 years. The early ones were not that great. I remember being on a Whitetail hunt in Illinois when my Outfitter showed me a Rocket BH. He told me about a deer that was harvested with a marginal shot and said that if it was a small diameter fixed blade, it probably would have been lost. I mainly hunt with mechanicals. There is something about a big nasty hole that appeals to me even though a deer would die just as fast with a smaller one. Granted, I hunt deer. Now if I had to hunt critters that weigh 600 lbs or more, I may opt for a fixed head. When I went on a Moose hunt in Newfoundland, I took fixed heads. Could a mechanical work? Yes. As mentioned, mechanical blades are longer so inherently weaker. This could be good or bad. Blades that bend, twist, or break when a lot of resistance is present, can penetrate better, not worse than fixed heads. Bottom line there are ads and disads to both. After 20 years of use, if mechanical BH's were bad, they would not keep making them every year. Just my 2 cents.

From: LINK
10-Apr-17
Wifish you should watch the videos I posted earlier in the thread. The guy did exactly that with a hooter shooter, the slicktrick was as good or better than most if not all expandables. His bow was tuned properly so I guess that kinda changes things. Slick Trick was one of the few fixed heads he tested.

From: wifishkiller
10-Apr-17
What was the distance and conditions? I had a difference of about 20 percent depending on wind at 100. Me shooting it jumped to 30 percent again these are averages factoring wind.

From: Ambush
10-Apr-17
Link, I mentioned earlier it wouldn't matter if we all went hunting with Hooter Shooters or even cross bows. But since we do have to deal with the human archer induced variables, then we're back to the beginning of the thread. Interesting test, nonetheless.

The only person who may be proven to be correct is Kevin Dill. He predicted we would probably be beating on each other for at least two hundred posts.

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
Archer, try at least 35yrs.

From: stealthycat
10-Apr-17
"Fix blades will not shoot like a mech" yes they absolutely will

Manufacturers sell things - they don't always sell good quality things, marketing is everything. Surely you know that ?

From: ohiohunter
10-Apr-17
But the real question is when executing the revered hamblaster what will your broadhead of choice be? There is an answer, it doesn't happen by chance nor will an opinion suffice.

We're losing momentum.. we need more momentum to push through or this thread will be buried just like its 4017 predecessors! get it, "momentum"

From: TD
10-Apr-17
I agree, matching the head to the game and the use. I've been carrying a mech in the quiver mostly for windy days and wanting to see what it does with a deer. Only one I've taken with it, cut her open pretty good but not much of a test. Head was toast, but it went into the solid ground pretty hard, not sure if even a two blade VPA would have made it. The VPA would have killed her pretty fast too.I do shoot tight to the shoulder and have had the best luck there with a well built two blade, noticed a tendency in 3 blades to "stick" into big bones where the two blade broke it and got through. But honestly, for deer size I don't see anything much wrong with a mech. They certainly have some advantages.

One issue though..... it was stated an untuned bow shooting a fixed head would have poor penetration as well. True. But chances are, the person shooting an untuned bow is not going to be shooting a fixed head. He will be shooting a mech head precisely because his bow isn't tuned and he can't hit a barn door with a fixed head. So he screws on a mech head and goes hunting, he doesn't screw one on and then go tune his bow...... the head did nothing to correct poor flight, it simply allowed him to get away with that poor flight.

IMO that is probably well over half the folks shooting mech heads. The people here on bowsite probably do shoot tuned bows and choose their heads for other reasons...... but to claim that was the why a majority of bowhunters choose them is..... incorrect, IMO. They shoot them because it's the only thing they can shoot out of their bow and hit anything with.

Another opinion is many people who shoot them tend to pull back off the shoulder, they know a long levered blade unsupported on the end doesn't do well with big bones. Many make the blades out of spring steel so as to "flex" around bone, but then we start to get into edge retention, etc. On the other end of the range I've had fixed blades I was trying out that failed on bone because the metal was TOO hard.... sharpest head I've ever shot, great edge and retention.... but brittle. Literally blew up on heavy bone.

Every head is a compromise. You don't get a big cut without sacrificing some penetration, etc., low blade angles cut better, but tend not to fly as well..... etc. Best a person can do us choose what are the most important features you want for the hunting you are doing and go from there.

From: AZBUGLER
10-Apr-17
I consistently have pass throughs and have broken multiple ribs with my Vortex. To say they suck at penetrating is just wrong. Best pass through was a bull elk at 40 yards. I found the arrow about twenty yards behind him. Best bone cutting performance was a whitetail buck where I busted through two ribs on the way in and one on the way out. I'll take true flight, bone crushing ability, pass throughs, and gaping wound channels any day.

From: SILVERADO
10-Apr-17
Stealthy cat, I see that you keep stating thin blades and stating lack of penetration. So far everyone of my shots with my grim reapers have been pass thru shots. Also you state thin blades? The reapers are .035" thick blades the same as slick tricks and many other fixed heads. It also has the same tro car tip as a muzzy. IMO best of both worlds. Trust me I used to be a die hard slicktrick guy. Where I hunt i need to drop them fast or they will make it to a neighbors property, in some cases under 50yds. I had to make the switch to the larger heads. I won't look back.

From: stealthycat
10-Apr-17
I refer back to the Rage video on youtube ... I've watched enough Tiffany Lakowski and other tv shows too.

Silverado I will concede they're making them better. It was the Quad Exodus that was mentioned that I was trying to think of before ..... I've read/heard they're very good.

for thousands of years slow bows with heavy arrows and 2 blade heads with around 3 to 1 ratio and 1" wide killed everything .... compounds came, fast came and now can't go hunting without a super wide mechanical head

good luck guys - ya'll shoot whatever you want and I hope you don't lose a single animal I really do

From: wifishkiller
11-Apr-17
Stealthykitten, how are you getting something with more surface area and drag to shoot the same in a hunting situation?

In many regards running up and down a mountainside, shooting kneeling and so on is going to give u a change in form and basically "an untuned" bow.

The penetration thing is more of a "different strokes for different folks"type of thing. Some guys like high speeds and light arrows to make up for being off yardage. 12 inches of penetration with a 2.3 inch hole is enough to some, and the deer don't seem to mind.

Again these threads are all in fun with more bs and trash talking then anything.

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
Ambush I only mentioned the test because wifish requested it.

Wifish why does it matter whether it's thirty yards or 100? The slicktrick beat almost everyone at 30. I suppose it's going to all of a sudden come unglued at 80? A broadhead and fletching will have stabilized arrow flight before thirty yards. If it's flying true at 30 it's beyond me how it won't be at 100, unless it was windy. Who shoots 100 yards in windy conditions? Who shoots animals at 100, other than Levi Morgan? I think it makes since to test broadheads at distances that are shots taken by the masses, maybe 40-50 down to 20.

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
"But since we do have to deal with the human archer induced variables, then we're back to the beginning of the thread. Interesting test, nonetheless."

So you are just going to assume that everyone torques their bow beyond tunability at the moment of truth? I'm pretty sure there are a lot of guys on this site that disagree with you they just don't want to speak out against the mechanical cult. ;)

From: ELKMAN
11-Apr-17
I shoot a 28 inch draw @ 69 pounds, with a 433 grain arrow with 16% FOC off of various Hoyt's as you can see in the photos. My shot on this years Bull was 28 yards, and the arrow was bouncing through the dirt on the other side after blowing through the Bull like tissue paper. We actually had a hard time finding it. So I just haven't found the whole "Drury" syndrome to be an issue, but my bows are tuned to the HIGHEST level possible. And I have NEVER had a broken blade, a head not open, or any other kind of failure... Shoot what makes YOU feel all fuzzy, and I'll do the same. Nuff said.

From: 12yards
11-Apr-17

12yards's Link
Here you go.

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
According to those results you could conclude that it's tougher to kill a small Maryland whitetail with a crossbow than with a compound. It also appears a good percentage of the expandable users were shooting crossbows that lend themselves to better penetration. There's slot of important details left out. Like what percentage of the crossbow kills were expandables. The other results leave you to draw the conclusion that there was enough larger percentage of expandable kills by crossbows to skew the compound statistics that aren't given. All in all very poorly done at least for what your trying to use it for. Crossbows are irrelevant and everyone knows they will penetrate better than a compound when tipped with an expandable.

From: 12yards
11-Apr-17
It specifically says that "compound users" had a higher recovery rate using mechanical broadheads than fixed broadheads. 88% to 82%.

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
I see that now 12 yards. Looking only at compound bow users, those using mechanical broadheads recovered 143 of 161 deer for an 89 percent recovery rate; those using fixed blades recovered 821 out of 1,001 deer for an 82 percent recovery rate.

The sample pool for fixed heads was over 7 times larger. Like I said this is a very poor test to use in a debate like this.

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
Looking at these last three comparisons involving mechanical vs. fixed-blade, it brings up a question. These comparisons involve deer killed with mechanical broadheads only from 2007 on, but with fixed-blade broadheads going back all the way to 1989. Is that fair? Could it be that the efficiency and accuracy of compound bows and crossbows are higher since 2007, after mechanical broadheads were allowed on the hunts?

From: 12yards
11-Apr-17
The results were similar when he adjusted the fixed head kills for the same time period. There was a similar thread as this one on AT a while ago and one of the authors of the study posted on it.

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
I've read it, thought maybe you hadn't. ; )To me this study as your using it is flawed. The pool of comparison is very different. I would also say a large portion of the fixed users had untuned bows. I have always said and always will say a mechanical head is better for someone that won't tune their bow. All this study tells me is mechanicals fly better out of untuned bows. Wow, I all ready knew that. Without knowing the tune of the fixed head bows it's hard to compare apples to apples. Even if 10% were untuned that would drastically change things. In reality it was probably more like 60% untuned. Out of a tuned bow that puts a broadhead where your field points go a fixed heads recovery rate would be better. Again I'll say for the guy that doesn't tune his bow any mechanical is likely better than a fixed head.

From: stealthycat
11-Apr-17
"Stealthykitten, how are you getting something with more surface area and drag to shoot the same in a hunting situation?"

more surface area .... a 4 blade Slick Trick has how much total cut vs a 2 blade expandable?

From: Ambush
11-Apr-17
Link, your last post seems contradictory to what you and a few others are saying.

You say that most/many mech shooters don't have tuned bows as opposed to fixed shooters. And now, to dismiss a study that refutes some of your other arguments, you claim sixty percent of fixed shooters, in the study, probably don't have tuned bows??

Could it just be, that there is an equal amount of "un-tuned shooters" in both categories?

In the study, could it be that the MBBH shooters are simply experiencing better accuracy and therefore higher recovery? Then the question is, why.

Does the study indicate that hitting where you aim is marginally better than having the supposed bone busting advantage of a fixed head?

Funny how Stealthy can post some vids and hold them as definitive, but an actual unbiased, scientific study under controlled conditions is dismissed as "flawed".

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
How do we know this survey is unbiased. I don't recall saying that most fixed head shooters have tuned bows, just that guys switch to mechanicals because they can't or don't tune their bows. I would agree there is roughly the same amount of tuned/untuned for each category. I agree with your statements and that's what I was saying. A well placed broadhead of any kind is better than the best fixed head poorly placed, seams common sensible. On a perfect broadside shot with an exit hole it doesn't really matter. The question is can you consistently produce an exit with an expandable at a rate comparable to a good coc fixed head. On quartering shots or shots where bone is encountered a quality fixed head will outdo a mechanical almost every time. I have never said that mechanicals aren't best for untuned bows, quite the contrary. My only point is given tuned bows over an array of shot placement the quality fixed head wins out. If this test were done with a hooter shooter and tuned bows it might be scientific but there are way to many variables to draw solid conclusions. If we assume most of the bows were tuned I'd buy into the study. You and I both know there were likely more untuned bows than those that were tuned.

From: Ambush
11-Apr-17
Link, I agree with your last sentence. And I don't think it is a case of laziness on behalf of most. Many bow hunters don't buy their set up from a dedicated bow shop, where they should be able to give solid advice and service. And ensure that they leave the shop with a well fitting, reasonably tuned combination. Buying from big box or online is probably the norm.

Then you have me and the guys like me, that are not and never will be "top" athletes in in our field. For many reasons, we will never have that rock solid, never flinching Hooter Shooter like release and follow through every time. Especially at the crucial few shots a year where it matters most. Most of us don't get to shoot a dozen whitetail does or dozens of pigs every season, to practice under real hunting conditions.

So the real world question remains: is there an advantage to more forgiving broadhead flight for Joe Average hunter, while still maintaining the plus's of a large cut?

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
I guess we disagree on the plus's of a large cut. I feel like it's gains in cut are lost on exit hole and lack of penetration of less than perfect shots. The blade angle on most of these hinged mechanicals is terrible. If you can get consistent exit holes and only take broadside shots then shooting a mechanical makes sense. Personally I've shot deer where my entrance was at the last rib or behind it and exit was in the shoulder. That's not a shot I'd take with a mechanical. I know there are lots of guys without horror stories, there are also lots of guys with horror stories. Stories like those that Jack Harris and non bowsite friends share are a big reason I won't trust a mechanical.

From: Ambush
11-Apr-17
Would there be more "perfect" shots with more consistent accuracy?

And don't you have job? Surely you don't have as much time to waste as me?

From: stealthycat
11-Apr-17
LINK - how big do you want? 4" cuts? 6" cuts? 10" cuts? i'm betting you are going to argue that what you're suing right now is the max you'd use am I right?

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
Lol Ambush. Hopefully I don't get fired for negligence. Yes with an untuned bow. With a tuned bow shot placement should be the same. I don't buy the bow torque under duress argument.

Stealthy I'd shoot up to 1.5 13/8. Anything bigger and I think the negatives negate any gains.

From: Ambush
11-Apr-17
The saying, "..like trying to herd cats." keeps popping into my head.?.?

From: ohiohunter
11-Apr-17
"Most of us don't get to shoot a dozen whitetail does or dozens of pigs every season, to practice under real hunting conditions."

I this factor alone is a HUGE one. At one time I think I could shoot 6 deer/yr, compared to NM where you may get chase one deer and one elk every few yrs. Elk if you're lucky. Add those differences over the years and you can have 2 very different hunters. Archery used to be year round, now its only in preparation for 4wks of hunting if lucky.

There is an advantage to the mechanical, plus they have the "cool factor", but in all my years I've only had 2 arrows that flew so terrible they were unacceptable at 20yds, one was on a target arrow and the other was a razorback 5 on a bare shaft. All others I could dispatch a paper plate at 20yds all day.

Finding or researching quality fixed BH's requires effort, something which is near non existent today. Like I've said 100x, we are the minority. You'd be appalled by the number of people you will see buying their 1st bow the week before season opener or know how many go afield without launching a bh tipped arrow in practice... that regard, due to ignorance and laziness yes mechanicals have the advantage to potentially hit where one aims, they however do not have the advantage at impact.

The disadvantages of the mbh are mostly out of the user's control, while a fixed blade failure is usually 99.9% user error. I want to be the blame for a lost animal, not my equipment.

From: PECO
11-Apr-17
IMNHO mechanicals do not have a coolness factor.

From: 12yards
11-Apr-17
If I remember correctly, A proficiency test was required for the hunt. And, Link, if what you say is true, then an untuned bow with a mechanical is more proficient than a tuned fixed shooter.

11-Apr-17
Wow, 219 posts. At least it's finally settled! lol!

From: ohiohunter
11-Apr-17
12yds, I've never heard of that test requiring the use of BH's.

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
12 yards I read that there was a proficiency test with hunting gear and I read that many couldn't even hit the target. The fact there was a proficiency test doesn't say much. They had to hit a 12" circle @ 20 or what?

" And, Link, if what you say is true, then an untuned bow with a mechanical is more proficient than a tuned fixed shooter." Explain. I've never argued against someone that can't tune shooting a mechanical. If bows are tuned......advantage fixed head l, if untuned ....advantage mechanical. It's that simple.

From: LINK
11-Apr-17
Maybe the proficiency test explains the largely under sampled and popular mechanicals. ;)

From: Nesser
11-Apr-17
I just spent almost a week in a booth next to the Feradyne guys...I don't shoot em but the new titanium rage looks badass and it will be durable. Tempted to try em on antelope and deer this year.

From: stealthycat
11-Apr-17
"Stealthy I'd shoot up to 1.5 13/8. Anything bigger and I think the negatives negate any gains."

but a 1.25 or 1 3/8" head is just not big enough? even when considering cutting with 3 or 4 blades vs 2 blades ?

I mean the cutting diameter argument doesn't hold water - and of course the more cut, the more energy used and the less penetration etc

From: ohiohunter
11-Apr-17
Go for it, I don't think you're giving up anything using a mech on a lope.

From: stealthycat
11-Apr-17
any broadhead and any arrows and just about any bow tuned or not will kill a deer at 20 yards with a great hit

you can literally use rusty old satellite heads - legal BTW, from an untuned 25 year old PSE Thunderflight - legal BTW and use a slightly bent xx75 shaft - legal ...... and if you hit the deer behind the shoulder no issues

when the shot doesn't go as planned ? and I guess it never happens to you world class shooters, but it does to me ........ when shots go bad, I want a heavy arrow carrying good momentum, I want a tough shaft and I want the business end of it to be extremely durable and sharp - and that gives me maximum chance at a pass through, a blood trail and best chance for me to get my animal

mech's are legal, shoot 'em if you want, but the argument that they're better just doesn't come to me as reasonable and logical, not with all the great fixed blades on the market today

From: Ambush
11-Apr-17
Stealthy, do you seriously have so many shots go bad that you pick a head on that criteria??

From: ohiohunter
11-Apr-17
Ya gotta love the "elitist" on bowsite.

From: 12yards
11-Apr-17
Link, my logic is that if you think most mechanical shooters are shooting untuned bows, then in this study, even all those lousy bow tuners were having better recovery with their mechanicals (89%) than those guys that know how to tune and shoot fixed heads (82%).

And just a disclaimer, I'm not a fan of all mechanical heads. I just really like the one that I shoot. But this study suggests that mechanicals in general are at least as good if not better at killing deer than fixed heads. And I think the sample size in the study was pretty good. I also think you need to be careful about what mechanical you choose if you are after elk and bigger animals.

From: wifishkiller
11-Apr-17
"more surface area .... a 4 blade Slick Trick has how much total cut vs a 2 blade expandable?" I was referring to shooting it not the cut going in an animals. Yikes some of you guys seem to sleep less then me. Basically living on this thread!

From: APauls
11-Apr-17
FACT, a human with a penis is a male. But it just happened, there is a dude who is allowed into women's sports track and field because he identifies as a girl. Hasn't actually gone through any changes, but says he feels like one. And he's REALLY fast lol.

And you think you're going to solve a broadhead debate?

From: Glunt@work
11-Apr-17
My guess is no one posting on here thinks they will settle this debate :^)

From: Ambush
11-Apr-17
I thought it was settled.

Now we are just trying to detirmine how MUCH better mechanicals are than fixed.

From: ohiohunter
11-Apr-17
Please refer to the provided video link. *NOTE: 2 out of 2 Drury's recommend low poundage, light arrows, big mechanicals, and a pack of blood hounds for a morning after rigamortis recovery.

From: PECO
11-Apr-17
Not settled. People who can't shoot, choke when shooting at deer, can't tune bows, or people who make and sell them, say they are better. Everyone else says mechanicals are weak band aides that will screw you sooner or later.

From: PECO
11-Apr-17
But shoot what you want. There are more important things to be concerned about. Like over on Leatherwall, settling what is or is not a custom bow.

From: HDE
11-Apr-17
"Everyone else says mechanicals are weak band aides that will screw you sooner or later."

Just the ones who don't and/or won't use them.

From: Ambush
11-Apr-17
Ok not settled, there is still ONE hold out.

From: 12yards
11-Apr-17
PECO, you forgot, research also says they are better.

From: Kevin Dill
12-Apr-17
Wait a minute....

Does this mean I'm going to eventually need a doctor's excuse to shoot a 2-blade Abowyer out of a longbow?

From: ELKMAN
12-Apr-17

ELKMAN's embedded Photo
ELKMAN's embedded Photo
Let's keep this party going. What is the record??? ;-) ____ (Elk rib- Rage 2 blade)

From: Ambush
12-Apr-17
If someone can photo-shop Stealthycat (rowdy dowdy style) with a huge cape buffalo and a Rage tipped arrow. And maybe a quick pic of him looking for the arrow after the pass through. Then we'll make 500 posts easily.

From: stealthycat
12-Apr-17
"Stealthy, do you seriously have so many shots go bad that you pick a head on that criteria??"

who said gut shot ?

I've killed enough animals to know that I will not shoot 100% perfect shots in the future. yes I know that for a fact. I TRY to shoot perfect but its bowhunting, things happen, I understand this.

So yes - I want a setup that gives me the best chance when shots go bad. If your setup only works great when shots go great, what happens when they go bad ?

That's what we see over and over in so many posts every fall - light arrows, fast bows and mech heads, a not perfect shot, a no passthrough, lost animals. over and over and over

From: Bake
12-Apr-17
I kinda like these threads. I'm on the mech fence. I've killed deer, turkeys, coyotes, bobcats, and one elk with mech heads. Call it 15 or 16 total animals. Last few years I've been VPA only and I think I counted up the other day while I was trying to fall asleep that I've killed around 25 animals with VPAs--deer, kudu, lechwe, zebra, warthog, wild hog, javie, turkeys, coyotes, bobcat.

I've also hunted with some guys shooting different heads and seen some things.

I've seen some shots that I don't think a mech head would have performed (most notably, a doe that I killed at 20 yards with a VPA where the leg bone was struck dead center. Broken leg bone, pass through, with the VPA on a 520 grain total weight arrow).

I've seen some shots that I believe the animal would have been lost with a fixed blade smaller diameter.

I've lost a couple animals myself that POSSIBLY would have been recovered with a larger cutting diameter. (Who knows???)

Then, I've talked to and know about guys that shoot a LOT more animals than I do, and some of them use mechs. Quite proficiently and with deadly results.

I'm planning a couple hunts. I may get to the point that I keep a couple VPA tipped arrows in the quiver along with a couple arrows tipped with mechs.

It comes down to confidence in your equipment. And sometimes, if you're shooting mechs, maybe you don't take the same shots as you do with a fixed. I personally like to hug the vital triangle and flirt with those big bones. I can do that with a quality fixed head. I've shot through or skipped off bone enough to be confident that I can get away with it with my setup on deer and smaller creatures. With a mech, I'd probably not flirt with those bones as much. That's fine too.

The tuned bow and experience argument don't hold water. Sure, some people use mechs as a crutch when they can't get their bow tuned. I've done that personally. (If you've ever tried to keep a Hoyt Trykon in tune, you've probably pulled hair out of your head at some point--most finicky bow ever and I shot one for 9 years).

But, there are plenty of experienced bow guys that can tune the crap out of anything with a wheel and a string, that still choose mechs.

Bake

From: Ambush
12-Apr-17
"That's what we see over and over in so many posts every fall - light arrows, fast bows and mech heads, a not perfect shot, a no passthrough, lost animals. over and over and over".

Why do you insist that everyone that shoots a mechanical uses a light arrow, a fast untuned bow and loses lots of animals ?

From: PECO
12-Apr-17
Let's say you make a perfect shot, and arrow goes exactly where you were aiming however the animal moves before the arrow arrives. The arrow hits the animal in the gut. The mechanical or fixed blade will kill the animal. Center of the guts, so an extra 1/2" reach of the mechanical will not reach the liver, lungs or heart. Now say the deer wheeled the other way and you hit shoulder blade, what do you honestly want on the tip of your arrow, MBH or FBBH? Good shots gone bad or bad shots do not always end in favor of the mechanical, and I truly believe your chances are better with a sharp COC machined from solid piece of steel FBBH.

From: ELKMAN
12-Apr-17
I just love how much you guys care! LMAO!

From: Bake
12-Apr-17
Peco. . . not necessarily on your gut example. I won't name names, but I witnessed with my own eyes a pure gut shot on a javelina this year with a large mechanical. I believe it was a 2 inch cut, but might have been 1 3/4. Pure gut. Pass through. Animal went 40 yards and was dead. With just enough blood to find it in the thick stuff. Really, only 3 or 4 splashes of blood. It really wasn't a terrible shot, but a javelina isn't very big to start with. You don't have to be off far to be off BIG.

I really doubt whether I would have recovered that animal with my VPA at 1 1/8. I really doubt it. So even though pure gut, I believe that extra diameter made all the difference.

From: stealthycat
12-Apr-17
don't confuse cut diameter with total surface cut - and maybe you get 6" penetration with a wide mech, 10" penetration with a 3 blade smaller cut diameter head

From: Ambush
12-Apr-17
Don't confuse the sponsored TV "hunter's" results with the real world.

From: stealthycat
12-Apr-17
I don't - those kills were the best Rage could put in video's. Imagine all the ones that wasn't fit for using huh ?

:)

From: ohiohunter
12-Apr-17
You would think a company with that much disposable income would see to it that their hunters shot adequate set ups to illustrate their equipment capabilities. Like I've said we are the minority, I bet over 50% of bowhunters cannot tell you how much their arrow weighs let alone worried about it weighing enough.

From: Beendare
12-Apr-17
Wow, all the blah blah blah from the mech guys....And I still haven't seen good reason to change any of the 5 reasons for shooting fixed in my original post.

Blades opening before the shot or in the air is not an issue???? ... or the "I've NEVER bent a blade"...... oh Cmon!?

Those are 2 issues with mech heads that can be ignored...but not denied.

Lots of stats tossed around.....but I bet 9 of 10 bowhunters don't BH tune....whatever it is ...its a high percentage.

I do think those guys are much better off with a mech head.

From: 12yards
12-Apr-17
You're not throwing any facts around either Beendare. Lots of "I thinks" and "I bets". And I've never had a blade open in flight with the mech I use. I've had bent blades with mechs and fixed. Don't think I've ever lost an animal because of a bent blade and don't know if my mechanicals bent in the ground or on bone. The best study based on facts, everyone says is not good research.

From: 12yards
12-Apr-17
PECO, honest question, if the recovery rate for mechanical users was higher in the study, is it possible there is less chance of a bad hit with a mechanical? And then does that make up for mechanical failure rate?

From: ohiohunter
12-Apr-17
No, but thats very democratic of you.

From: APauls
12-Apr-17
Lol, these threads are entertaining. I generally only give weight to people who have shot both mech and fixed. If you haven't shot both and are entrenched in one camp that's a pretty useless opinion. Kind of like taking weight loss advice from someone who's been skinny their whole life. Sure your results can be solid, but you can't KNOCK the other side. I've had nothing but fantastic results on both sides of the spectrum.

From: ohiohunter
12-Apr-17
I've had lackluster results w/ mbh on deer, I cannot recall any issue from fbh, maybe a lost thunderhead blade.

From: stealthycat
12-Apr-17
I'm all about technology - pandora's box was opened long ago

I shoot an Xpedition - radically different than even the Drenalin I shot. But a 2 blade mech heads I see having zero additional qualities compared with a Thunderhead 3 blade and in fact, because they can fail and are not as durable, LESS qualities.

That's not moving forward, that's moving backwards.

"Like I've said we are the minority, I bet over 50% of bowhunters cannot tell you how much their arrow weighs let alone worried about it weighing enough."

true - and those same guys watch Rage sponsored shows and just screw 'em on and hunt

From: Ambush
12-Apr-17
I guess the bottom line and goal is recovery.

So far 12yard is the only one that has presented a verifiably factual, unbiased, scientific study. The end conclusion was that, in the real world, with average hunters, shooting real deer, the recovery rate was higher for mechanicals. We can speculate all we want as to why, but the end results are more deer recovered. And that should be everyone's goal. The results doesn't mean everyone should go out and buy mechanicals for the upcoming season. But it should be enough to dispel the hard held belief that all mechanicals are the devil in regards to hunting.

From: PECO
12-Apr-17
Where is this verifiably factual, unbiased, scientific study? The one about the bowhunter recovery %? The flaws in this study were already pointed out. It does not prove anything.

From: Ambush
12-Apr-17
And yet the ancdedotal evidence is credible.

Of course the fifteen hundred hunter/ deer sample does not even come close in credibility to the story from a neighbour's, son's high school friend that made a "perfect shot" on a big buck and didn't recover it.

I give up on having a rational discussion.

Cheers and happy hunting all.

From: ohiohunter
12-Apr-17
"So far 12yard is the only one that has presented a verifiably factual, unbiased, scientific study"

Way too many variables to call that unbiased and scientific, but it semi supports your efforts which is why you're bias in regard to it.

"hard held belief that all mechanicals are the devil in regards to hunting"

98% of that statement is your interpretation of the situation, I wouldn't state that as fact. Its funny you're fired up of what you think others think, thats good stuff.. lets keep this one going.

From: tradmt
12-Apr-17
Please don't say you expected rationale discussion. Haha!

Besides, is it even rationale to believe that a mechanical device won't be, at least to some degree, more prone to mechanical failure?

From: PECO
12-Apr-17
12yards when you execute a "perfect shot" and the arrow goes where you aim, but the animal moves by the time the arrow arrives, do you really want an expandable in the shoulderblade or a fixed blade? I will repeat again, punching holes in paper or fake foam animals that do not move is fine. When you draw on a real animal, practice is over and there a many more variables involved. A big one is the real animal may move. When this happens the situation is not always favored by a mechanical. I believe a fixed blade will benefit a larger percentage of the time.

12-Apr-17
Doesn't always favor a fixed blade either. Most animals that move, move forward, not back. That means your shot will more than likely hit behind where you want, not forward. By doing so, it will encounter soft tissue, not bone. In that case a mechanical with a larger cut would hold an advantage.

From: ohiohunter
12-Apr-17
I think he's talking about the rear shoulder blade... duh.

From: stealthycat
12-Apr-17
LOL Ambush .... Rage paying you ?

Real world Rage video I sponsored shows horrible perpetration on perfect shots ...imagine how bad it would be on non-perfect shots

From: krieger
12-Apr-17
Stop lumping the RAGe in with other good mechanicals. My Jakhammers, and Innerloc EXP's and Night Furys are getting upset... ;)

That's like comparing a Muzzy to a Slick Trick..

Oh yes I DID!

From: 12yards
12-Apr-17
Your argument is a good one PECO. I can't discount it. I will say that there are mechanicals that will do fine in the shoulder. They just aren't the large cut variety that are so popular today. I do think that fixed heads won't guarantee you will get through the shoulder unless you are shooting heavy arrows at fairly high velocity. I've hit two deer in the shoulder with fixed heads and heavy arrows back when I was shooting aluminum arrows in the 550-600 grain range and didn't get into the vitals with either one. One was a bad shot on my part, the other I hit right where I was aiming. I think there are angles or places in the shoulder that you won't penetrate very well regardless of head. You are obviously correct in that I would rather have a fixed head on if I make a mistake and hit the shoulder. I shoot 125 grain Rocket Steelheads and I think they provide the best of both worlds and I believe they give me a reasonable chance at recovery on a shoulder hit as they are steel and penetrate with some of the best fixed heads out there. I am going to have one of my bows set up to shoot NAP Hellrazors though. They fly nicely out of my bows.

From: PECO
12-Apr-17
I like Hell Razors.

12-Apr-17
Bake, i think u nailed it absolutely 1,000,000%. Tho this will never be "settled" because u got the guys that have killed a lot of animals with mech and not experienced the "failures" that u would think are a guarantee if u listened to some, and u got the guys that have killed a lot of animals with fixed blades and love them to death. Some will claim those failures even if they dont see them personally. What you said should be the end all in my opinion.... but we know better, the argument will continue on and guys will scream pissing match at the other side while they got as much or more urine on the ground than anybody else in the conversation. I dont think your post could be more honest and correct.

From: Beendare
12-Apr-17
I'm not down on Mech heads...but I AM down on guys claiming they are "Better" ..

.....and I am down on guys citing "Scientific studies" when they aren't.

A scientific study is controlled for all variables except the one tested. Now I think some conclusions can be made by the way the study was conducted...namely, like I said previously...the avg hack bowhunter is probably better off with mech heads as they are more forgiving of zero to poor tuning. [please don't misinterpret as all bowhunters using mechs are hacks...thats NOT what I said]

Look, we know the vast majority of Bowhunters don't BH tune....at least according to the 2 guys I know that own archery shops...guys I see on the range and all of the questions weekly on forums re; tuning.

I know of a couple cases where a mech heads blades opened in flight or from quiver to shot....like the story I told of a buddy losing the buck of a lifetime. Its rare...but it happens.

I know a bunch of guys shooting mech heads....they work...thats undeniable too!

But I shoot with a lot of those guys shooting mech heads and none of them have a bow that I would call tuned. In fact many gave up on tuning and shoot mechs as a short cut. If they are happy...its all good [we never discuss it] ...but it ain't "better"

From: Matt
12-Apr-17
"Don't confuse the sponsored TV "hunter's" results with the real world."

What, not everyone on this site shoots 40# with Rage BH's? I would hope people don't watch the huntertainer's TV shows and assume that their results are typical. By and large they hunt for the camera and could care little about when the recovery happens (or if the meat is salvageable).

I have shot a ton of animals with a 2" Vortex and get full penetration 90%+ of the time - even with a 27.5" draw length.

Perhaps you can't always believe what you see on TV?

From: PECO
13-Apr-17
Is full penetration a pass through?

From: 12yards
13-Apr-17
I think Bill Winke said it best after being asked what's the best broadhead: "Tell me where you are going to hit them, and I'll tell you what the best head is".

From: ohiohunter
13-Apr-17
A ton of animals? or a ton of light skinned deer? What is the relevance of 27.5" draw?

13-Apr-17
Come on Ohiohunter in all you infinite wisdom you really don't know why a 27.5 inch draw would make a difference. Unbelievable and your on this site the BOWSITE trying to give advise seriously . Man you better educate yourself prior to making statements like that.

From: stealthycat
13-Apr-17
"Stop lumping the RAGe in with other good mechanicals. My Jakhammers, and Innerloc EXP's and Night Furys are getting upset... ;)"

Rage is #1 isn't it ?

A passthrough is punching holes in both sides .... arrows needs to be right there or not far from impact because those 2 holes means best chance at a great blood trail and maximum cut

From: ELKMAN
13-Apr-17
"Krieger- Stop lumping the RAGe in with other good mechanicals. My Jakhammers, and Innerloc EXP's and Night Furys are getting upset... ;) That's like comparing a Muzzy to a Slick Trick..

Oh yes I DID!"

That's funny right there^^^ ___ I would say that you are right. None of the trash you are shooting belongs in the same sentence with Rage... LMAO!

From: ELKMAN
13-Apr-17
That is seriously some good stuff!!! LMAO

From: ELKMAN
13-Apr-17

ELKMAN's embedded Photo
Another one for the "junk" Rage...
ELKMAN's embedded Photo
Another one for the "junk" Rage...

From: ohiohunter
13-Apr-17
"Come on Ohiohunter in all you infinite wisdom you really don't know why a 27.5 inch draw would make a difference. Unbelievable and your on this site the BOWSITE trying to give advise seriously . Man you better educate yourself prior to making statements like that."

Wart, its pretty simple, Its a small piece of the overall equation. You're 27.5" could still be faster than another's 29" or even 31; so no it doesn't mount to a hill of beans. SO please do not omit information and expect the masses to buy your bullsnot. I'd have to say at this point you're a pretty shitty representative for your company.

When can we expect to see the videos of your bh out performing all others? God I hope we don't have to watch plywood getting shot up, poor innocent wood.

From: ohiohunter
13-Apr-17
"Got exit wound?"

I need to make this a tshirt with "Ruck Fage" on the back.

From: PECO
13-Apr-17
C'mon you Rage haters, you get a free sticker when you buy a pack of Rage's!!!!!

From: GMC
13-Apr-17
Draw length doesn't dictate what broad head we can shoot? I'm 26" (thanks Mom) and shoot a 350 IBO bow @ 62 lbs. with a 480 gr. arrow zipping along at about 240 fps. trying to give myself the most momentum. I shoot slick trick 125 gr standards because I respect and love the white tailed deer and believe i'll get 2 holes most times. Great flight, sharp blades, no worries, don't rush the shot, and just do my dang job! But in 2 weeks I'll have 2" killzones and hypo's in my quiver because I'll be going after the elusive thunder chicken! Shoot what works within your system and don't worry about the next guy.

From: stealthycat
13-Apr-17
I swear I want to shoot a deer with a Gobbler Guillotine, kill it, and post pictures of how awesome it is, what a hole it cuts etc.

Bigger cut is better, right? Pass through is irrelevant right? long thin blades doesn't matter right? uses more energy? so what, I've got like 85# KE

I don't think anything can go wrong

From: joehunter
13-Apr-17

joehunter's embedded Photo
This elk did not make it out of sight!
joehunter's embedded Photo
This elk did not make it out of sight!
Killed a lot of stuff with Wasp Jak-Hammers - never had a problem! A few of them are in my trophy pics.

From: Matt
13-Apr-17
"A ton of animals? or a ton of light skinned deer? What is the relevance of 27.5" draw?"

Ah, the one thing you apparently don't know.... Draw length has implications to power stroke, which has implications to arrow speed/energy, which has implications to penetration.

Light skinned deer, light skinned hogs, light skinned bears, light skinned elk - lot's of light skinned game.

I don't think MBH's are the best tool for every job, but lots of people - many with little direct experience - vastly overstate the penetrate penalty that results from blade actuation, wide cutting diameter, and obtuse blade angles.

From: ohiohunter
14-Apr-17
I love the pathetic attempt to support the the draw length statement. Again, Wtf does draw length have to do with bh choice? Reminds me of this: X+7-Y+AB= 71; solve for A.

I thought more highly of vortex bh's before ward started interjecting.

From: Tonybear61
14-Apr-17
Harvested some animals with Wasps. Also lost a couple shot at close range with good angles. Watched one hit a deer almost sideways as a blade opened before impact. Hit a very small stick or something. Recovered the deer the next day with a follow-up shot. Animal looked like it had been shot at a quartering towards angle , exiting at the rear end. This was close broadside shot.

In one case had two deer same trail, same position within about a minute of each other. One shot with jack hammer, one shot with COC . Anyone wanna guess which one was recovered in a short distance the other one lost??

From: ELKMAN
14-Apr-17
Ohio is challenged...

From: stealthycat
14-Apr-17
"One shot with jack hammer, one shot with COC . Anyone wanna guess which one was recovered in a short distance the other one lost??"

The COC head didn't fail to open, I can tell you that.

From: ohiohunter
14-Apr-17
I would be offended but I've yet to see even a glimpse of intelligence in any of your posts. Maybe one of these days you will write more than one line.... maybe.

From: PECO
14-Apr-17
I guess the COC was successful.

From: joehunter
14-Apr-17
Use what you want, after forty years of hunting I have never had any broad head be the reason I lost an animal. Back in the early days we killed them just fine with Wasp Cam-loks, Savora's, and Thunderheads. I have used Spitfires and various Rockets. Wasp Jak-Hammers have proven to be the most effective head for my set up. All those heads killed animals just fine if i hit them decent at all.

I find people that blame their equipment for lost animals are usually willfully unprepared or unwilling to look themselves in the mirror to find the real reason for their failure.

From: PECO
14-Apr-17
Three Three Three Three come on Three Hundred!

14-Apr-17
What ever happened to the "Razorback 5"?? Man o man that was a deadly head!

From: WapitiBob
14-Apr-17
in at 300

From: ohiohunter
14-Apr-17
In almost 30yrs I can blame the broad head for a near loss. 65# z7 throwing 390gr arrow tipped with rage, to satisfy curiosity of the hype. I was close enough to hear the blades slap, got a whopping 5-6" penetration. Snow was the only reason deer was recovered, first deer I ever shot that left the property including 2 170+" bucks. I call that failure. Had it been a fixed blade I am confident I would have exited and left a slightly lower hole. FYI My shot was not high. I've also used a spitfire with less than stellar performance.

Rage have improved since and I would be inclined to try them or other MBH on does, but I do not have the confidence in them to pursue trophy deer or anything thicker skinned.

14-Apr-17
Where did you hit? Rocket, you would have penetrated and gotten through the other side. Ive killed half a dozen deer, 1 big bodied illinois buck with 2-3/4" cut buckblaster shooting a 70lb hoyt trykon, and passed completely through all but two and those two i had exits. Most of them were TIGHT on the crease/shoulder and all recovered with amazing blood trails. I shoot smaller 1-3/4" cut rockets now just because the buckblasters are too devastating for my liking, its an absolute mess inside. Every mech isnt the same, just as every FB isnt the same. And of course, i have never had the opportunity to shoot anything bigger than a midwest WT, so i have no dog in the elk fight.... I will tell others about my experiences and recommend rockets based on them, given they are shooting a setup near or more powerful than mine. But if they choose a FB or any other broadhead, all good with me, good luck.

From: ohiohunter
14-Apr-17
Slight quartering on. The shot was tight to the shoulder, tight enough to still exit the ribcage. That shot most likely would've been more successful with a spitfire, but thats pure speculation.

The deer I shot w/ the spitfire was a follow up shot. The deer was dead on his feet and had already fallen down twice after a thunderhead zipped through him so fast he didn't know he was hit. The spitfire was square in the middle of the ribcage and 50/50'd the arrow. I know had the shot been w/ a thunderhead it would've been a full pass through.

15-Apr-17
Did ur arrow penetrate/poke out the far side on the spitfire shot?

And if the spitfire providing you with better pentration on the first deer is "pure speculation" then a thunderhead "blowing" thru would fall into the same boat rather than knowing, in my opinion. If u hit middle of the ribcage, theres zero reason you didnt pass through outside the fact that your setup is not a good enough one to shoot anything but a fixed blade. But thats just from my experience, so purely speculating....

From: Tonybear61
15-Apr-17
The deer shot with the jack hammer went about 30 yds. Likely the COC did its job too, but couldn't recover the animal to prove it as deer was able to get back into the bog, no mans land to walk when the earth is moving and you start sinking up to your crotch. However, did this mean the WASP was a better head? The additional tests in various hunts indicated "no" as several deer were lost that I feel should have not gotten very far. I have a pile of COCs that all were successful since then. I still hunt near swamps but back off from the quicksand, tamaracks a little more. Always have two sets of waders (hip and chest) with me too.

From: tradmt
15-Apr-17
Ok, so who went out and bought some mechanicals after 305 posts?

15-Apr-17
Lol

15-Apr-17

Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Didn't buy any but I won these four packs at the P&Y Convention:)

From: krieger
15-Apr-17
Rage heads at a P&Y Convention is like a woman of low repute at a Baptist Revival...just don't seem right some how..

From: ELKMAN
16-Apr-17
Those are the new Trypans! Awesome

From: tradmt
16-Apr-17
Charlie's expression in 15 words or less.........

Now that would be a fun thread. :)

16-Apr-17
In the P&Y Summary booklet we got last week it shows that the majority (more than 50%) of the entered animals in the last two years where taken by mechanicals. I have an opinion but that's a fact.

From: RutnStrut
16-Apr-17
The case for mech's. Just like certain fixed blades , I shoot. There are certain mechanicals that flat out work. I have just as much confidence penetration wise with the Rage 2 blades I shoot as I do the Snuffers, and QAD Exodus. Then again I don't shoot sub 400 grain arrows out of poorly tuned bows. That is where you get the majority of your mech penetration issues.

From: stealthycat
16-Apr-17
RAGE at P&Y convention is again, exceptional marketing

Do this. Design a radically new looking head. Pay big bucks for a celebrity who's personable and attractive to spend a year killing a bunch of game. Set up marketing and sell at Wal-Mart as well as the DVD's and in the sporting dept have that film running 24x7x365

You'll be a millionaire.

Of course, don't tell anyone all the animals shot and lost and how much you had to pay to get in those high fence areas or sweet lightly hunted spots etc. Am I suggesting Rage does it kinda like that? Dang right I am

16-Apr-17
Somehow I missed this thread.

From: PECO
16-Apr-17
Meanwhile there is a mechanical broad thread that started on Mar 31st that only made it to 34 comments.

From: jstephens61
16-Apr-17
Opinions are like.....you know what. Everyone has one and they all stink. The one thing I learn from threads like this is who I'd hunt with and who I'd stay away from.

From: stealthycat
16-Apr-17
all I know, is at the end of the day, with all the money I spend on bows, arrows, hunting clothes, accessories, feed, game cameras, tags etc .... I want a head that has less penetration, uses more energy, has been known to not open and breaks from time to time ...

makes perfect sense to me

16-Apr-17
Marketing or not they killed what they killed whether it was high fence, low fence, high pressured or low pressured animals. Pretty sure animals don't develop a thicker skin if hunting pressure increases.

17-Apr-17
Meh, posting a few pics is anecdotal. The only way to know for sure is to have one person with multiple setups kills thousands of animals with fixed and mechanical heads and compare the results. I'll need a few million dollars to conduct this scientific study if anyone's giving out grants...

From: Ermine
17-Apr-17
I'm a fixed blade guy for the most part. But I think mechanicals work well too and I'm not afraid to use them. I think they handle wind better and are more forgiving of hunting type shots.

I also know lots of successful bowhunters that use mechanicals.

Few of the best bowhunters out there use only mechanicals. Guys like Randy Ulmer, all shoot mechanicals. Randy is super anal about his equiptment. He shoots mechanicals because of how accurate they are and forgiving they are of hunting situation shots. If mechanicals sucked so bad and didn't work those guys wouldn't be using them.

From: stealthycat
17-Apr-17
IdyllwildArcher there are a lot of durability tests on youtube - mech's don't do well most of the time

If Ulmer doesn't get paid to shoot a certain head, then I'm impressed. I'm betting every bit of gear he uses is sponsored though. Maybe I'm wrong

From: Ermine
17-Apr-17
Yea I'm not forsure. I just have listened to him talk on his reasons for using mechanical. He likes the ulmer broadhead (that is brother designed) that is no longer made. He said he bought a bunch up so he can keep using them.

He said he uses a hooter shooter and finds mechanicals to be much more accurate than fixed blades and more forgiving

From: Will
17-Apr-17
Apauls - really liked your post.

Just for a straw man - per the OP's fun counter questions... I always wonder why everyone pushes fixed heads as holy grail's of shoulder blade penetration when the shoulder blade, and even shoulder joint and upper humorous are a pretty small percentage of the potential areas you could hit if you screw up a shot.

For giggles I've shot rages with one and two blades open, and at least on shots I took out to about 30, the POI change was hard to tell from my normal groups. I know good archers who have noted on forums or what not that they shoot corkscrews and discover one blade opened. I dont understand how that's identified - admittedly, that's based on my experiences with mech's. But it seems one would need high speed video of the shot to really verify that occurred. That said, I have missed a deer with fixed blades shooting cork screws only to discover that a very short distance in front of me was a very small twig on a sapling that impacted my shot just enough to create some really awesome patterns. Not saying that's the only reason this can occur, but I'd bet it's more common than people think.

One's bias, well, it can be a tough beast to cut through.

To me, it really comes down to what your equipment is, how you hunt and what you would like to try. There are many awesome fixed blades, and Mech's today. My wife, with her 24~ ish inch draw shooting about 45#, I'd not suggest she swap out of her trusty stingers for Grimm Reaper Whitetail Specials... But with my 90+ ft lbs of energy, I'm perfectly happy and have seen great performance with my 2+" mechs.

As the infamous line goes: "Cant we all just get along" :)

From: Ermine
17-Apr-17
Blacktaill bob is another one who uses mechanicals. He has killed all sorts of animals. From mountain goats to bears to deer. All with mechanicals

From: Ermine
17-Apr-17
And if your worry is lack of penetration and durability. Shoot a rocket steelhead. They penetrate amazing and are very durable

From: ohiohunter
17-Apr-17
Usually those (me included) shooting mechanicals want the big cutting diameter, the steelhead is only 1 1/8", the exodus has an 1/8" more cutting diameter as a fixed bh. In my mind it kind of defeats the purpose unless I were planning on a long shot on an antelope or where high winds are common. But thats just me.

Did Ward make a video yet?

From: Beendare
17-Apr-17

Beendare's embedded Photo
Beendare's embedded Photo
62# compound, 22 yd turkey.....mech head ....total fail.

But I bet they fly great!

17-Apr-17
Musta been an Alabama turkey.

17-Apr-17

stick n string's embedded Photo
stick n string's embedded Photo
70lb hoyt, turkey 30 yds, mech head, shot thru center body, 12" of arrow exited offside of bird, turkeys system totally failed.....

17-Apr-17

stick n string's embedded Photo
stick n string's embedded Photo
Three more(all but bottom left) mechanical kills ranging from 7 yards to 25. Bottom right bird, 60lb hoyt, another center body 4 blade mechanical, again lots of arrow exited out the off side.... you dont like mech, we got it...... i have not seen a failure..... both types will more than do the job on a turkey, where was the impact on that shot in your pic?

From: tradmt
17-Apr-17
Doesn't matter where it impacted, it didn't open.

Over 300 posts to determine whether a mechanical device can fail or not. And you all questioned TBM's intelligence. Lol

17-Apr-17
Not the mechanical i shoot, so that pic doesnt change my opinion one bit. I dont know any info about the situation other than it was a 62# recurve. Was it a body shot or just clipped feathers? They have a lot of em.... Is that actually how it was when the guy picked up the arrow? Dunno, maybe it was, but after killing dozens of deer and a half dozen turkeys with them, i dont believe a rocket would ever body hit a turkey and not open. Just flat not buyin it, as much as u wanna sell it. And thats fine, cuz i can shoot what i wanna, just as you can. God bless America!!!! We all know this is some how a revolving door/dead end and yet we rub the leaves on the back of our hands anyway.... ;^)

From: Ermine
18-Apr-17

Ermine's embedded Photo
Ermine's embedded Photo
From the other day. 30 yard shot. Mechanical thru the body. Arrow passed thru and could not find. Turkey dropped in its tracks

18-Apr-17
You can post up 1000 pictures of dead animals and it potentially means very little. If you can't control for the study group and use two different things side by side and control for variances, then it's anecdotal and that's been shown time and again to lead to false conclusions. Especially when the guy with 1000 pictures emits the 100 animals that "got away." (I'm absolutely not directing this at you Ermine - you're a killer and you'd be a killer with obsidian heads if you so chose). This is impossible in bowhunting. You can't do a scientific study hunting wildlife with bow and arrow. What we do cannot be reproduced in a lab. I could start a thread with people posting pics of dead animals from fixed heads. It could reach 10,000 posts and it'd still mean nothing.

And I'll never trust the opinion of a man who stands to benefit monetarily from that opinion. And that goes for Ulmer and Ward, two men who I respect very much and are two of the best hunters alive. The reason our political system is broken is because, in general, the integrity of men shrivels in the shadow of the power of money. You can't trust anyone who stands to make a buck off of what they say you should do. Or else you'll be duped most of the time.

It's called a "conflict of interest." And it's why it get's thrown out of court - because you can't make a fair judgement based on it.

18-Apr-17
I will agree with that, Idyll

From: APauls
18-Apr-17
So just for kicks and giggles, I know a lot of guys are REALLY anti the Rages because of the lack of exit holes. But the question begs to be asked - you never know what you are going to hit on the offside, and often it can be the center of a shoulder. If your arrow is going in, but not necessarily coming out, what is wrong with guaranteeing a large entrance hole?

If your entrance hole is twice as large, but you have no exit are you winning? I know we've all had amazing pass through experiences, and most of mine are as well, but even with fixed heads a pass-through is not guaranteed. Plain isn't. The only hole you can guarantee is an entry hole, and if you get past one single layer of bone, you're into the good stuff. So for the medium sized game especially what's the problem? I shot a Rage hypo for the first time this fall on a big CDN whitetail and had same thing. Arrow stopped at offside shoulder, which I must admit irked me. Buuuuuuuut the thing had a massive hole, and died running full tilt in 40 yards, so I really can not complain. Blood was excellent. So I wasn't impressed, but when I really think about it, I am prob judging the head by standards it is not designed for.

As to the advantage of using a smaller stouter mech head like the steelhead, for ME the advantage is in forgiveness. I still have a super strong, dependable, durable head the flies wicked accurate and is at the utmost of forgiveness. Yes, I can also have any manner of fixed heads fly the same under practise circumstances. But hunting is not practise. Often a quick snap decision is made to shoot through some brush where I see a hole. after sitting for 6 hours in very very cold temps. That is not a practise situation. Before you say I should trim my shooting lanes better I decide to hang in a new spot most times I hang and bring the stand with me each time. Personal decision, just like the heads we choose :)

From: carcus
18-Apr-17
My study group is only about 50 animals since I started using mechs and I have total confidence with them, I had way more wounds with fixed, too critical of my poor form during the excitement! I also shoot some really good fixed for elk and moose, mechs have their place and so do fixed, I wouldn't want to hunt moose with a mech, or hunt deer with a fixed!

From: tradmt
18-Apr-17
Way to go Ike, ruin a perfectly stupid thread with common sense. :)

From: Ambush
18-Apr-17
tradmt; it's only a stupid thread if your mind is made up and closed. It only takes a few extremists, lighting their own hair on fire, to turn a discussion into a screamfest.

Thankfully there are plenty of level headed folks to counter that.

Idyl: 12yards posted a study that did just what you suggest. A study taking into account all the variables that would occur during an actual hunt with only the broadhead type being used as the distinguishing, testable variable. In other words, what will happen if all the variables are constant except the broad head.

Beendare:, you post a pic of a broadhead that snagged a fluff ball of peripheral feathers and claim "broadhead fail". That head did not hit the turkey in the body. The shooter missed his target and skipped it off the bird, and the arrow then slowed and just landed on vegetation. Feel free to post the actual scenario and broadhead make/model, if I'm wrong. If the shooter had been using a fixed head and made the same glancing shot, would you have called that a "broad head fail", or just a miss?

And one more time: there is much more to it than just the "fail to open" mantra some are keen on painting the whole discussion with. Tunnel vision is a view, just not a very good one.

And as stated by someone above, that's not the mechanical I shoot, so why does it condemn mine? Anymore than a junk Walmart fixed head condemn yours?

If we could count on everybody being totally honest; it would be very interesting if, on all the "Meat Pole" threads, shooters could post the broadhead make/model, recovery distance, time elapsed, bow and arrow specs. For dead animals and non recovered. That would be lot of "real time" info for objective review and education.

From: HDE
18-Apr-17
So, I keep hearing and reading about the energy "lost" to open the blades on a mecahnical.

How much is quantifiably lost? Afterall, the only thing keeping most of these blades in is a rubber band used for braces.

From: stealthycat
18-Apr-17
" I wouldn't want to hunt moose with a mech"

why not ?

From: ohiohunter
18-Apr-17
"Idyl: 12yards posted a study that did just what you suggest. A study taking into account all the variables that would occur during an actual hunt with only the broadhead type being used as the distinguishing, testable variable. In other words, what will happen if all the variables are constant except the broad head."

The "study" is more of a survey, the author allowed way too many variables into his study for it to be remotely valid. If one were to be as close to scientific as possible you'd either have a large group of similarly experienced hunters shooting the same equipment except BH, or you have a small group shooting both bh equally.

It would be nice to get explicit details about harvest photos, and some pictures of wounds would be cool. But too many are like to and post the same pic over and over saying "This one didn't like RAge".... I've noticed another thing, aside from sponsorship, not a whole lot of talk about pass throughs. Call me old school, but I like to find my arrow laying near where I shot.

From: Beendare
18-Apr-17
I pulled that pic from another forum, the head has some crazy name "Freak nasty" something or other. The guy shot the bird at 22yds dead center is what he claims...knocked the bird sideways....and he went back to strutting around...but of course he never recovered it. Was he lying? Who knows...but we see many claims with these mech heads that are suspect; always get a passthru....never break/bend a blade. They may not have experienced it but it doesn't take much internet surfing to find many bent or broken mech blades...or hundreds of Youtube vids with arrows hanging 1/2 way out of animals running off. I do think we have a much higher level of bowhunter here that will no doubt experience less "Problems"

Hey, I shot mech heads for probably 10 years and killed piles of pigs and critters with them while doing dep work on state parks shooting as many as 4 pigs a day [going out with my bow instead of the dogs].........Of course mech heads work.

In my experience, mech heads aren't better, no advantage....not even close.

From: Ambush
18-Apr-17
Yes, why not?

I've killed two bull moose with Spitfires and my partner has killed four. All one arrow and short blood trails. Actually most didn't need any trailing, just walk over to where we watched them dropped

From: Ambush
18-Apr-17
Fair enough Beendare, that's a reasonable opinion based on your own experience. But you did post a pic of a damaged popular fixed head on another thread recently. Could you post it here, just as a counter to the fluff ball head?

From: Ambush
18-Apr-17
Maybe I can restate my original post to a question.

Are there inherent advantages to a MBH that can (sometimes) out weigh the inherent disadvantages of the design?

A simple "No" is not really helpful either.

From: Brotsky
18-Apr-17
Ambush, YES. Sometimes. I shot a turkey on Saturday with a big mech. I made a less than ideal shot. The big mech still dispatched the bird within a few yards of contact. I would have killed that bird with a fixed head as well but it would have involved a lot longer tracking job and an hour's wait or more.

I also killed a doe last fall with a VPA that I shot clean through both shoulder blades. That shot would not have ended well with the big mech I used on the turkey.

Broadheads are a tool. Just like your bow or your arrows. Use the right tool for the right job. You don't use a bat to play football do you?

18-Apr-17

EmbryOklahoma's embedded Photo
EmbryOklahoma's embedded Photo
Just getting mine in...

From: ohiohunter
18-Apr-17
tree fitty, half way to fo hundo!

From: Will
18-Apr-17
I just want to see if we can get this "Pro Mech's" thread to 5 bills :)

I've had many pass through shots with mechs. Some with over the tops and some with different 2bld versions of rages (originals, hypo's, extremes - my current preference). The one that stands out most was a doe a couple years ago. It was a shot from about 25 feet (stand 20 up, she was about 5 more down hill in a little trough). The shot was about 20 yards. Entry was just in front of the back leg, near the top of the deer (not literally, just about 3/4 up). Arrow went all the way through, came out busting a rib in front of the off side front leg - basically low chest. Arrow stuck in ground beyond deer on other side of the trough she was standing in. That was with a Rage Extreme. Now, someone could say: "that was a 120# doe" (because it was), and that would be true. But, if penetration on a 250# buck is feared, is that "really" tougher than going through a deer on about the longest diagonal an arrow can take through a deer, breaking a bone on exit and sticking in the ground? I'm certain that a silver flame would have done the same thing... But given that type of performance is what I've consistently had with mechs (that was the sharpest quartering away shot I've had in my 30~ years of hunting, other pass throughs have been closer to broadside or slightly less angled), I'm in favor of the big holes vs potential penetration gains.

Works for me, may not for someone else...

From: ohiohunter
18-Apr-17
Just deer?

From: Glunt@work
18-Apr-17
Aside from things like metallurgy and weld strength, you can look at a head and pretty much have a common sense idea of how it will penetrate, how strong it is and how sensitive it will be to tuning and form. We shoot arrows with pointed tips and "fins" that look sort of like a rocket but it ain't rocket science.

Its common for people to get the idea that there is some sort of mysterious quality that makes a head work way better or worse than what you would think at first glance.

From: Ambush
18-Apr-17
"Just Deer?"

Nope. Any big game from anywhere.

My first two animals in RSA were very different. A Klipspringer at about five yards and a Zebra at thirty five yards. The little Klipspringer went down in his tracks. The Zebra made it about seventy yards. Both Spitfires

From: ohiohunter
18-Apr-17
More directed towards Will. I'd imagine close to 50% (all hunters, not any one in particular) pass through deer w/ mechs which is terrible IMO, but with proper weight and shot placement it is an easy task given everything performs as intended. I'd imagine the pass through rate on bigger game is considerably less. Factor in shot distance and I bet the mechanicals show an exponential decrease in penetration as distance increases.

A slingshot w/ a steel ball would pass through a klipspringer!

Again, select details missing. Are you saying these were the only 2 you passed through? What about all the other game?

From: Beendare
18-Apr-17
Ambush, I posted my reasons in my first post.

I know some good bowhunters that use a mech head with appropriate bow/poundage/arrow/tuning....I have no beef with them....as I said different strokes. There are inherent problems with some mech head designs.....these guys have a work around and understand their equipment. When talking about the masses....I doubt they consider the ins and outs.

[re the pic of the slick trick] You aren't trying to say all fixed heads are the same are you? FWIW, I don't like thin replaceable blade fixed heads either...I like a strong heavy blade of decent steel....but that isn't germane to this discussion.

From: Ambush
18-Apr-17
Haha, Ohio. Yes the Klipspringer was kinda like running over a squirrel with a Mack truck. Overkill for sure. But no more than a Silverflame head on a nine hundred grain arrow.

I killed ten animals. Interestingly, I shot a big bodied wart hog with a Sluck Trick, complete pass through. Blood everywhere and just splushing out as he ran!!

We followed the blood and found him under a bush 150 yards later

Later I shot an old pig, with a Spitfire, hard quartering to, right in front of the shoulder, at the PH's request. Complete pass through and that one died within twenty yards. So you really don't know what you got till it's over.

From: Beendare
18-Apr-17
Ambush, since you are trying to make a case for these....why not; 1) explain your tuning process

2) your arrow assembly, arrow weight and how you confirm every heads blades are perfect before the shot...or do you check?

3) your shot selections- what you are limited to with a mech head

4) Testing, how you do it without wrecking an bunch of heads...

Those would help your argument.....

From: ohiohunter
18-Apr-17
True, but sounds like the pigs were shot at different angles. Not the ideal comparison, in fact no comparison at all really.

The warthogs over there seemed pretty soft compared to the feral pigs here. But they are tasty thats for sure!

From: APauls
18-Apr-17
Why would anyone be concerned about practicing with a mech head? Or wrecking them in practice? Far less risk of damage then a fixed blade. On a mech head you can simply replace the blades, usually for a very minor price. It's back to perfect. Better yet, make sure it's a mech head with a steel ferrule.

On a fixed head you need to sharpen it, thus removing steel. You need to change the head. If we're getting anal, it's no longer the same as the last time you shot it.

Personally I don't go hunting until i can shoot all the fixed heads in my box well out to and past 60 yards. Then I may or may not tie on a mech head depending on when/what I am hunting.

From: Ambush
18-Apr-17
Ohio. With the pig comparison I'm only trying to say, it ain't over till it's over. A few here are claiming they would have had a different result if they'd used a different head, but without the end result to actually prove it. I'm not sure the originator but, there's a saying " the only people that can say "I could have" are those that already did."

Beendare: I've never shot a bow over seventy pounds. My current hunting bows are a 60# Mathews Drenalin and a 65# Mathews Heli'm. Both solo cams, at twenty nine inch draw length and I think around 315 IBO fps. I've never had nor wanted a speed bow.

I have a press and a draw board. I set everything to factory specs to start. Cam timing, axle to axle, brace height, cam lean and rest. Shoot some paper and diddle with yoke twists a bit. I'm not a keen paper tuner anyway.

Outside with a couple of bare shafts, then fletched shafts and three blade fixed heads. Often Thunderheads. I have quite a selection of old heads. Once my hunting arrows have field tips and fixed heads hitting together I test shoot my MBH's. I sometimes still have to add a twist or two to a yoke to get it right, but usually rest adjustments are enough by then.

I don't like changing gear all the time and have been using the Easton Axis now for several years after using Bemans for many years. I foot the arrows to provide a strong sidewall and to give the broad head a thick, solid shoulder to tighten up against. I precision grind both ends of my shaft in a lathe. Superior to the much better-than-nothing ASD's available. That perfectly square, solid shoulder ensures that my long Spitfires spin true. I have also had to machine the odd broad head shoulder.

My arrows are always between 425 and 450 grains finished for these two bows. The heaviest I've ever shot regularly is 475.

I've compared my Spitfire practice heads enough to the hunting heads to be confident they impact the same, so I don't wreck hunting blades anymore. I religiously spin test all heads on the arrow they will be shot on.

My broadhead does not enter into my shot selection. It's either a shot I'll take or it's not.

From: 12yards
18-Apr-17
I switched from fixed heads to mechanicals in 2008. In that time I've shot 15 deer with mechanicals and I've had two holes in every deer. Total arrow pass through on 13 out of 15. One I hit the off leg and my arrow didn't go through but there was a hole in the armpit. On my buck last year the last 8" of my arrow was broken off inside the deer. The off leg snapped the arrow went it ran but again two holes. These were with a Hoyt Vectrix XL, Hoyt Maxxis 35 and Elite Synergy bows at 58-62 pounds and 29" draw length with a 400-422 grain arrow. Hardly speed demons. So I've had much better than 50% pass throughs.

From: ohiohunter
18-Apr-17
I call a pass thru a pass thru as in thru the animal completely, the kind where you pick your arrow up where the game was standing. I'm not super impressed with pass throughs on deer, in all honestly if only broadside shots are taken you're not going through a whole lot. But I also added a slight disclaimer to avoid such an "offensive statement" via BS standards... "all hunters, not any one in particular" sooooo..... no comment.

I can say I have never not passed through a deer w/ a rib shot with fbh, however I did not pass through with 2 different mbh. Disclaimer time.. I know this is a small sample/ anecdotal but much like the advocates for mbh who have had acceptable performance I have not, so why would I continue to use them? My experience is the one most fear, good shot poor performance which has higher odds of happening w/ a mechanical. I like the sharpening comment, pretty comical.

From: Beendare
18-Apr-17

Beendare's embedded Photo
Beendare's embedded Photo
Ambush, it seems we go through much the same tuning procedures, I just find it easier to shoot every arrow BH combo, touch it up and done- different strokes.

Doyou think the vast majority go through a detailed assembly/tuning process? Me either....thats why I said the avg guy benefits shooting mech heads. It is an advantage for a guy not meticulously assembling arrows or tuning.

I think where we differ is shot selection. I will shoot [lets call it] Big Dans collar shot on an up close elk without hesitation- 100% success. I will take frontals, steep quartering, etc assuming they are close shots I can pinpoint before the animal has time to react...and have many times with a 100% success rate. My arrow penetrates like crazy and can get through the vitals from many different angles. I cut my teeth on hogs with thick shields that do a number on expanding bullets and expanding BH's. Its the longer shots that have been less than perfect for me...so I just don't shoot those anymore.

I know what my setup is capable of...as do you...kudos to you sir. I like that I can shoot a hog about to charge me from 9 steps and know my arrow will equal a .44 mag between the eyes[ pictured, you should be just able to see the nok peeking out.] I wouldn't take that shot with a mech head.

So yeah, different strokes, agreed. Better...and you get an argument from me- grin.

From: ohiohunter
18-Apr-17
Beendare, thats sweet!

From: stealthycat
18-Apr-17
12yards - in the video I posted, Rage heads were getting maybe 8-12" of penetration at the most. Explain that please.

People don't want to use them on big game because they can fail. People don't want to practice with them because they're not that durable really. Lets just say it and not sugar coat it, k ?

From: PECO
18-Apr-17
Stealthycat you won't get an answer from the fanboys here. If my wife can shoot a 40# bow with a light arrow and a Montec and blow through a mule deer at 14 yards, I would also like to know why a rage sent from a 70# speedbow can't send a light arrow through a deer at 15 yards. The fan boys shoot them because they think they are "cool", one of them even said it. They are victims of marketing and in denial.

18-Apr-17

IdyllwildArcher's embedded Photo
IdyllwildArcher's embedded Photo
That's an impressive picture Beendare.

"I switched from fixed heads to mechanicals in 2008. In that time I've shot 15 deer with mechanicals and I've had two holes in every deer. Total arrow pass through on 13 out of 15. One I hit the off leg and my arrow didn't go through but there was a hole in the armpit."

Similar shot: Granted, a doe (I'm assuming your deer was a buck). Shot was in the near-side arm pit with the near side leg back and exited the opposite side arm pit with the far-side leg forward. In rib, out rib at the arm pit, snapped the humerus in 1/2, exited and stuck a few inches into the dirt after breaking 3 bones and cutting hide 4 times. VPA 125 grain unvented. Arrow weight 420 grains. Draw wt 52 lbs. Draw length 29.5 inches. I had far better penetration with a lessor bow. Again - anecdotal. But I was impressed with the results. The deer was not able to run away due to one of it's legs being nearly cut off - that's convenient.

From: Ambush
18-Apr-17
Haha, Beendare! This whole thread is worth it just for that pig pic!

From: loopmtz
18-Apr-17
Rage are wicked on turkeys!

19-Apr-17
Everything's wicked on turkeys. Their plucked bodies are the size of two footballs. If they made BHs any bigger, they'd shear them in 1/2.

From: Glunt@work
19-Apr-17
Fixed heads are wicked on cape buffalo :^)

Just trying to help hit the 400 mark

From: WYOBIRDDOG
19-Apr-17

WYOBIRDDOG's embedded Photo
WYOBIRDDOG's embedded Photo
I don't care what anybody shoots! I don't post much but I do lurk and read a lot of post. Just like he said straight up the leg and I watched him tip over! Thanks BB!

From: 12yards
19-Apr-17
Whatever, 13 out of 15 pass throughs with the arrow in the dirt is pretty impressive IMO and two holes in the the other two as well. Not all were broadside shots either although that is what most ethical hunters wait for I think. I'm sure there are many fixed head shooters that can't claim that success rate. And I've said before I'm not a fan of large cut mechanicals like Rage. I think their angle of attack is terrible and my assumption is that the reason you don't see many pass throughs on TV with them is light draw weight and light arrows. I shoot a 1 1/4" mechanical that is all steel. While I've killed way more animals with fixed heads, the Steelheads have given me a higher pass through rate so far than the fixed heads I used to shoot.

But the amazing thing that the study demonstrated, is even if they pass through less often (which we don't know if they did or not), they still allowed for a higher recovery rate than fixed heads on deer.

From: ohiohunter
19-Apr-17

ohiohunter's Link
The "study" is invalid, therefore its like tits on boar hog, worthless and hardly worth calling a study. And I bet the house every MBH shooter in that article was shooting minimum 1.5" mechs up to over 2". I've gotten more valid broadhead information out of a kids science project volcano than I did that article. Increase the # of deer shot and you increase the odds of a lost deer plain and simple. Isn't the steelhead 1 1/8" and the steelhead xl 1 1/2"?

And as long as the topic is deer, then by all means shoot'm w/ whatever ax you want. They aren't half as tough as some of you make them out to be, so no pass throughs are not impressive.... unless you shoot'm long ways.

If penetration was a non issue w/ mbh, and these steelheads out penetrate fbh, then how many mbh threads are on the leather wall? Just curious, never been there.

#375 and counting!

From: HDE
19-Apr-17
Figure out a way to get some KE and Momentum thrown in about mech vs coc and you'll hit 400 quick ;^)

From: ELKMAN
19-Apr-17
Agree 100% with Beendare on the arrow by arrow set up process. You have to do each one/set individually from the ground up, from start to finish. No two shafts are exactly the same, and neither are two inserts, vanes, or broad heads for that matter. Good to know there are other guys out there doing things the right way, all the way.

From: PECO
19-Apr-17
https://www.camofire.com/index.php/Deals/6

Rage on camofire now!!!

From: PECO
19-Apr-17
https://www.camofire.com/index.php/Deals/6

Rage on camofire now!!!

From: stealthycat
19-Apr-17
12Yards you really believe a mechanical penetrates better than a fixed ? On your kills a fixed head same blades and cut would have penetrated every bit as well, right ?

19-Apr-17
Amazing: There's at least one guy alone with over 50 posts on this thread. Must be important stuff these boadheads. Ha!

From: ohiohunter
19-Apr-17
They become very important when people's wallets are involved.

BTW... Ward promised me some video footage, he hasn't posted much so I'd imagine he's working on his camera angles.

From: 12yards
19-Apr-17
ohiohunter, I shoot the 125 grain Steelhead that is 1 1/4" cutting diameter.

stealthycat, yes depending on the fixed head. I'm sure some would penetrate as good or better, others not as good. I think there are some fixed heads that have a terrible ferrule design and some 4 blade fixed that the steelhead will do as good or better on penetration. I also believe some fixed heads with vented blades would not penetrate as good as a steelhead. I've shot deer with vented fixed heads that got plugged up with hair that probably could inhibit penetration.

The study is not invalid. It is only invalid to those that don't like the results.

From: PECO
19-Apr-17
I got buzzed by a good size rattler this morning while out hunting sheds and turkeys. Would I have felt better with a mechanical in my broadhead vs my 175gr 2blade VPA? NO, I would of felt better with any one of my 12 gauge scatter guns. I was then wondering if one of the head cutter offer turkey blades would of taken care of him.

From: ohiohunter
19-Apr-17
Hahahhaha, if it were valid I'd say so, im really not that worried about YOUR broadhead; I'm bored at work.

So from 1989-2012; tell me about the mechanical bh's they were using in 1989. Please bc I am very unfamiliar with what mbh's were available and how prevalent they were.

From: 12yards
19-Apr-17
ohio, the guy who was part of the study stated that the relationship held even when fixed heads were adjusted for the same time period as mechanicals were used. In other words, in the time period where both fixed and mechanical heads were being used, the recovery rate was still higher for mechanicals. This was part of the discussion on AT.

From: 12yards
19-Apr-17

12yards's Link
Here's another link to the study. What he actually found is that fixed head recovery rate was statistically identical pre-mechanical and post mechanical use.

From: Beendare
19-Apr-17
Yeah, I hate to bring out the big guns with that hog pic and have some animal rights folks poach it with my ugly mug on a billboard in Hollywood....

I think the problem is with guys shooting XXX without giving it much thought.

We have many very accomplished guys here on Bowsite that I respect as bowhunters like WapitiBob, MattB , Elkman [and now Ambush] and many more I haven't had the chance to talk with that are very successful mech shooters. So we have to be careful when we cast a wide net saying " all" mech or fixed shooters, Blah ,Blah [all crossbow shooters is OK though- grin] These guys are very thoughtful in their equipment setup, shot distances and shot selection....you can't argue with that as they stay within the limits they KNOW what works for them and do well.

The goofballs putting big cut mech heads on light arrows, untuned/ light bows with little care to their setup do a disservice to all of us....though it seems the study shows this avg bowhunter as more effective with mech heads- makes sense. Its unfortunate that some of these guys are TV celebrities!

From: stealthycat
19-Apr-17
12yards an honest answer, aint seen many of those in this thread !!

From: ohiohunter
20-Apr-17
"Here's another link to the study. What he actually found is that fixed head recovery rate was statistically identical pre-mechanical and post mechanical use."

I don't buy that the stats remain the same, equipment improvements alone have made the avg archer look good and a lot of fbh have been slim lined to improve accuracy. I also do not buy his statement that the sample size was large enough to essentially washout all the variables, he is just trying to justify his "research". Most importantly I'd like to know who funded the project considering one mbh's vast advertisement budget.

It would take a miracle for you to sell me on that article. All credibility was gone when he compared 800+ Fbh kills to 200 Mbh kills.

Next time anyone shoots a deer w/ a vented blade that gets clogged with hair I'd really like to see it. I've never seen one and I can't say I've ever heard anyone say their blade got clogged.

From: Ambush
20-Apr-17
That's how most of us react to "studies". We like the ones that support our beliefs and reject those that don't

Some guy shoots two each of several broadheads through gelatin, cement board, plywood, phone books, pig ribs, etc.. The "winning" head's proponents declare it scientific proof, while the losers dismiss it as bunk since we don't shoot animals made of those materials.

Someone shows several videos of the poor performance of a head that they despise and offer that as proof positive, no bias, end of story, 'nuff said! And everyone should just accept that as good science.

Nine more to go to hit four hundred.

And still over three weeks till bear hunting for me. Who knows, after all I've learned , I may just screw on one of the old five blade heads I still have kicking around. The ones that spin to enhance penetration! Hmmm, a spinning mechanical?? Big advertising budget, a few celebrities in pocket......???

From: PECO
20-Apr-17
When will this end? Is anyone still serious about this discussion or just pumping fuel to the fire hoping it reaches 500? I am not the least bit swayed toward the inferior, prone to fail, mechanical head. Nope.

From: stealthycat
20-Apr-17
PECO a lot of people love mechanicals because they've seen the advertisements, the shows using them and they fly great from untuned bows.

A lot of people lose animals with them too and sour on ever using them again. Nobody wants to talk about that though.

20-Apr-17
It will only take about 7 more posts for me to decide whether to use ViperTricks or Hypo's this year...the fate of my bowhunting life hangs in the Bowsite's hands. :-)

We haven't even discussed the proper amount of FOC needed for mechanicals to work to their fullest potential!!

From: Ambush
20-Apr-17
Maybe Stealthy will come on board as one of my celebrity hunters. Whadda ya say Cat? And don't worry, we'll get along just fine. I just spent the Easter weekend with three of my 2 1/2 year grandsons. I know the routine :)

20-Apr-17
I like tater tots...

From: Brotsky
20-Apr-17
I just order two packs of RAD fixed blades to use this season. I guess 396 posts did not make the case FOR mechanicals :)

From: ohiohunter
20-Apr-17
Ambush come at me w/ a legit STUDY, not a half assed survey, and I will gladly accept its outcome. But what is posted is rubbish.

are we there yet? 400 and I'm out!

From: WapitiBob
20-Apr-17
"Next time anyone shoots a deer w/ a vented blade that gets clogged with hair I'd really like to see it. I've never seen one and I can't say I've ever heard anyone say their blade got clogged."

I've seen it. Doubt it had much affect and not something I worry about.

From: ohiohunter
20-Apr-17
BOOM!

From: Glunt@work
20-Apr-17

Glunt@work's embedded Photo
Glunt@work's embedded Photo

From: Brotsky
20-Apr-17
Glunt wins the internet today! Bahahaha!

From: 12yards
20-Apr-17
Ok ohiohunter. If you don't like the comparison between mechanicals and fixed in the study, what are your thoughts on the recovery rate of mechanicals alone at 88%? Is that high? Do you think it would go down significantly after 800 kills are achieved? What do you think the "real world" mechanical recovery rate is? What do you think the "real world" fixed head recovery rate is?

From: ohiohunter
20-Apr-17
Rate too high? No. Decreased rate w/ significant use? Yes. The rest of your Q's are ridiculous.

Check please.

From: 12yards
20-Apr-17
Well you've put out some ridiculous stats out of your head yourself, so I thought I would pry for more with some ridiculous questions. LOL.

20-Apr-17
I dont allow fixed blade broadheads in my camps. to much failure rate.

From: PECO
20-Apr-17
Do guys who shoot guns argue about bullets as much as we argue about broadheads?

From: stealthycat
20-Apr-17
"Maybe Stealthy will come on board as one of my celebrity hunters. Whadda ya say Cat? "

I have never been much on guided hunting or celeb hunting or anything like that. I'd consider anything, I am flexible and if there is a mech that it totally bomb proof I'd switch IF there are advantages, I just have yet to see one ;)

Like I said, I made an agreement to shoot hypodermic +P or whatever they're called and I killed a doe, it was the same results I'd expect any 2 blade head to give, it didn't fail to open and it didn't crumple or anything. I see no advantages to using it over my Slick Tricks and the chance it doesn't open and knowing its not as tough as a Slick Trick and it uses more energy means I have no reason to shoot it.

From: Bullhound
20-Apr-17
Can't believe this thread will not die! I'd like to see the list of great mechanical broadheads that were around in 1989.

From: Glunt@work
20-Apr-17
I work in the gun industry. Trust me, caliber and bullet debates are just like this but scaled up.

From: Ambush
20-Apr-17
Does anybody make a 250+ grain mechanical? We could get the trad guys involved then to, EFOC and all.

From: HDE
20-Apr-17
"...great mechanical broadheads that were around in 1989."

1) Punchcutter.

There, settled.

From: stealthycat
20-Apr-17
high speed compounders use mechs because their bows can't shoot much anything else

:)

If Rage paid me $$$$$$$$$$ a year, I'd shoot them and tell everyone how great they were and I'd never say a word about all the animals I lost etc.

Everyone has a price. Rage - you want stealthycat on your side? sponsor me .... I can be bought

From: 12yards
21-Apr-17
There were none Bullhound. What is your point?

From: Will
21-Apr-17
Glunt - calling in those Turkuffalo is tough! They are a real handful. The spurs are like a foot long too!

Ohio - sorry for late reply, been driving home from a family fun and fishing trip in FL - ooph, two days in the car is a LONG time - not sure how truckers do it. For me, it's way over 50% pass through. Most would be more accurate. I can think of the specific non pass through instances, and 2 were spine hits and the last one was on buck a few years ago. pretty close shot, and the arrow went in where I aimed, highish on the near side, and ended up stuck in the heavy cartilage just to the off side of the sternum. All of those fell in sight. I'm going to say 85-90% pass through's. Now, in saying that, I'm including a couple times with mech's over the years where the head went all the way through, but part of the arrow did not. In other words, the head and some amount of shaft poked out the off side, but the whole arrow did not come though. That was unusual for me, so it stands out a couple (2) times in my mind. Again though, I shoot way overkill energy for deer. It makes sense given the heads I like to shoot, but not for everyone.

C'mon 500! :)

From: APauls
21-Apr-17

APauls's embedded Photo
APauls's embedded Photo
Maybe if all I had to wear in November was a sweater to stay warm I might stick with a fixed head as well.

Form issues are a reality when you are in a stand for 8 hours dressed like a marshmellow because it's so cold you're worried about the noise of turning your head because that means you'll snap the icicles that have formed from your schnoz running down your neckwarmer...

From: Bullhound
21-Apr-17
12yards, No point. I was just reading this and saw reference to mechanical broadheads in 1989. I was asking because I never knew of any. Mechanical broadheads are not allowed here in Idaho for big game. I only started using mechs on turkeys last few years.

From: 12yards
21-Apr-17
Got it! I remember the first punchcutter I saw but I don't remember the year they came out. I remember thinking "are you kidding me?" Seemed very poorly designed for sure.

From: WapitiBob
21-Apr-17

WapitiBob's embedded Photo
WapitiBob's embedded Photo
One of 11 Elk shot and lost with a fixed head over the last three years that I personally know of.

I hunted with a guy a number of years ago that "flagged" 8 Elk in one year, all fixed head shots; the record for dip shittery as far as I know. Pretty sure those numbers can be matched with mech head users as well. I doubt the contributing factor is the head on the arrow but more likely the head above the shoulders.

From: Brotsky
21-Apr-17
Bob, I think it might be the head up the arse that is the problem in that case! 8!?! Wow!

From: PECO
21-Apr-17
I have not had 8 shots at elk in my life. Sad that some A-holes fling arrows and wound multiple animals in a season.

From: WapitiBob
21-Apr-17
On a side note, the bull in the picture was totally consumed, down to head and hair in only a few days. All the bones minus his head were gone as well.

From: ohiohunter
21-Apr-17
Thats sad for the elk, pathetic for the hunter. I knew of a guy just like that who shot up a bunch of big bucks w/ a xbow, I'm pretty sure I could see his old perm stand from the stand I shot my 200" buck.

I guess some people simply cannot handle the excitement regardless of how many times they draw back. Kind of like poor test takers who are seemingly brilliant.

From: sticksender
21-Apr-17
This may end up as a record-breaking thread overall, but let me just say that some of the individual performances deserve kudos as well. A couple guys have already gone over 40 posts and one 50+. Congrats to the high-output contributors! Maybe there will even be prizes awarded, once this critical, ground-breaking issue has been put to bed once and for all ;-)

21-Apr-17
"I doubt the contributing factor is the head on the arrow but more likely the head above the shoulders."

Amen. It only took 420+ posts to sum it up perfectly. Put a competent shooter that takes his craft seriously enough to ensure whatever equipment he/she's using performs at it's peak potential and it doesn't matter if it's fixed, mech, or flint. Put a shooter that doesn't give a rat's a$$ how his/her equipment performs, and it doesn't matter if it's fixed, mech or flint, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

From: ohiohunter
21-Apr-17
If we had tied drugs to the topic wood walker would pissed and moaned it all the way to 1k!

Who the heck counts # of posts? And I thought I was bored!

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