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So, with a few threads still active regarding the use of mechanicals. And some threads that have little or nothing to do with MBH but still some making swipes at them, I thought I'd answer why I use them and a specific one.

I shoot NAP Spitfires because I like the big, three blade, cutting diameter. A big diameter has a few advantages, besides just the obvious of a big bleeding wound channel. That extra 1/8' or 1/4" may just be enough to cut that artery that you would miss with a smaller diameter head. Same reason I will only use a three blade as opposed to two blade. You simply have a better chance of cutting vital tissue. That's why folks that head shoot turkeys like giant four blade heads. Margin of error mitigation.

So why not use a big fixed head? I think it is generally accepted that a mechanical will be more accurate than a same-size fixed head when launched with less than perfect form. Like under actual hunting conditions. So to the folks that say they'd rather have a fixed head when the shot goes wrong and they hit shoulder bone, maybe that shot would not have gone wrong if your set up was more forgiving. Why did the arrow not hit where you aimed? You were obviously not aiming at the shoulder when you released. Quite possibly the culprit was arrow flight. If you're satisfied with your results using a 1 !/8" fixed head and form is not an issue, then you should keep using them. But, as stated, I want the bigger diameter.

"MBH's are a band-aid". Poor tune affects penetration just as much on a MBH equipped arrow as it does on a FH. The hunter that neglects bow tune is handicapping himself, no matter what head he shoots. The MBH shooter will likely be more accurate, in this case, so has the edge. But there is simply no excuse to head afield with equipment at sub par standards.

Quality? Lets face it, there is crap offered in both designs. Pick proven, quality heads, manufactured with good material, under strict controls. Longevity of a particular head is a sure indicator of reliability.

If you only hunt whitetails from close range stands or blinds, then head choice is far less critical. But if, like me, you go from treestand deer to spot and stalk moose and bear, or to the mountains for sheep, goat or caribou, all in a two month period, then head choice becomes for more critical. Different size animals, wind, extreme angles, body stress and a dozen other variables all come into play.

Should you shoot a mechanical? Only if you think it offers advantages in your situation. Good fixed heads have proven themselves over time and will continue to do so.

But to say there is no room for advancements is myopic. Of course you can kill an animal with flint, feathers, wood and sinew, but to use that as proof that "better" is not better is a poor argument. The horse and buggy was not "broken" but we fixed it and kept fixing the fixes until we finally had Toyotas :) We may be done there now!

Maybe Bowsite needs a forum named MBH Anonymous where we won't be judged. Where, when we stand up and say "my name is Rod, and I shoot mechanicals." And where the very whispered mention of the dreaded word won't evoke the "COC fixed head!!! COC fixed head!!!!" being rabidly screamed with spittle flying everywhere.

All in good fun. I'm just bored because I have to wait four more weeks to thread a couple of bears from the ground with my trusty Spitfires.

Now let's start the popcorn!

A COC will operate as poorly as any mechanical will if the arrow has crappy flight. No need to argue that.

WW. If I always shot a slow, heavy arrow at close range, I'd very likely use a 1 1/2" + fixed, three blade head. Since I don't, I have to decide if the miniscule chance of my head not opening overrides the other advantages. I've decided it does not. Is there a reason that MBH's are not allowed in broadhead 3D competitions? The best archers, with the best form under the best conditions.

And I will always choose a very hard,Trocar style point over the cut to tip heads. I've seen too many curled tips from bone contact. And using your train of thought, one time is too many times.

HDE. I'll be 64 before the 60 day drying period is up for my spring bears.

And I might as well go all in and say that I much prefer the over the top mechanical to rear deploy. Might have to change my name to "neanderthal".

1) They are harder to BH tune for perfect arrow flight....and impossible to test each Arrow/BH combo...whereas the 2 or 3 blade VPA type heads can be tested, then easily touched up and in your quiver knowing that arrow flys perfect on the shot of a lifetime- no guessing....and anyone NOT Bh tuning is guessing.

2) the blade angles are bad on large dia mech heads which forces them against hide and hair....more of a chopping action than the slicing of a tapered fixed design. So the mech puts cheap stamped blades in the worst possible scenario for maintaining sharpness. So this blade angle not only dulls the edge more...but it also limits penetration

2.5) Mech blades are thin, weak- 3) Mechs limit my shot selection....I have more shot options with the better penetrating foxed designs. The addl performance from a strong fixed COC head can turn a bad shot location into a killing shot. The difference is amazing almost guaranteeing 2 holes every time and they get through tough tissue to vital organs better.

4) I don't have to think about my BH at crunch time; No glancing at the head to make sure blades didn't open...and with a fixed, I don't have to worry about blades opening in flight. [shoot a mech long enough and this will happen] My total focus is on the shot.....NOT on my BH.

5) Animals shot with a mech head know they have been hit...and take off like they are on fire. On the contrary with a fixed COC head many times they have no idea what just happened. I have had much easier recoveries overall with COC heads.

And if fifty of those fixed heads miss the vitals because of inherent design attributes, does that mean anything?

We proved in another thread that I'm no good a math, so I won't offer percentages.

I have lost deer that I may have killed with a larger diameter head, but I also know I have killed multiple deer I would not have killed with a mechanical.

I meant to ask how do you "know" you would not have killed those deer with a mechanical?

I have yet to see a picture of a scapula that a mechanical head penetrated. I shot a buck a few years back, hit high in scapula. Broadhead penetrated the scapula, through front of both lungs, and BROKE his opposite front leg (bone broken in half). I only shoot 55 pounds, and there is no way a mechanical head does that. Period.

I do think mechanicals would have killed me a few more deer over the years, but I think they would have lost me more.

This is exactly the type of hysteria that is injected into the discussion. By using terms and phrases that are meant to hyp a claim.

So how many failures per thousand does "INFINITELY more likely" translate to in whole numbers?

How come you hit him in the shoulder? What was the distance and circumstance?

And that big time archery guy that put his name on a mechanical recently. I think it was something like Ulmer Edge or something. Is he the 90% lazy or the 10% stupid?

Re malfunction....sure it happens with mech heads. My buddy...an ASA shooter at the time so there is no doubt he can SHOOT] lost a 161" whitetail to an arrow with mech head that was corkscrewing to the buck. We found out at camp that when taking an arrow out of his quiver about 30% of the time one blade comes out. [buck was shot a week later in rifle season]

I've seen/heard of a few cases like that over the years with friends and mech heads.

Mechs leave too many things to chance for me....but I get why guys like them.

Not directed at you, but I'd like to separate wheat from cafe.

Ambush I let you decide that when eventually your broadhead fails. My broadhead otoh will never fail.

Ambush,

I don't think he claims to KNOW if you are lazy or stupid. He's just saying there's a 90% chance you are lazy, but there's still a 10% chance that your stupid. (-;

Let me ask another way. Why would a person that can win FBBH competitions, can shoot fixed heads way better than most shoot field points, a man with nearly unlimited professional resources behind him; Why would that man even think about using a mechanical, never mind doing it?

And is he lazy or stupid?

Those of you that are hung up on shoulders....How much area of a deers chest cavity does the shoulder cover? If it's 20% then the only time I wish I had a fixed would be if my arrow hits that area. For all other hits a mechanical is more deadly.

I do agree with Beendare in that when you hit an animal with a mechanical head they turn inside out but you typically will have a ridiculous blood trail to flow.

No, just mathematically correct.

"So how many failures per thousand does "INFINITELY more likely" translate to in whole numbers?"

Well, if Beendare's story is solid... and a guy only noticed and corrected the issue about half of the time... I'd say about 150. I think it's less than that, but my deal is that whatever the odds were, it doesn't matter much to me when I end up holding the short straw.

So (JMO) failures per thousand is not the point; the point is that mechanical heads are generally designed such that they require a tremendous amount of force behind them in order to ensure adequate penetration, and the same design features that demand the high "energy" impacts ALSO place more strain on the structure of the head so that when the DO deploy properly, they are at higher risk of structural failure. So they are, in a sense, self-defeating. A COC head... (or any head at all, for that matter) the more efficient the design (in terms of penetration) the less force is inflicted on the structure of it, so the less strength is required, further reducing the potential for a structural Fail.

Either way, the designs kind of make their own luck.

It's just a personal preference; I don't like light, fast, high-expansion bullets and I don't like light, fast, high-expansion broadheads. JMO, the fragile loads limit your options. Treestand hunting for deer, it probably matters a lot less, but I have to ask myself if I am more likely to get a hard-angled shot at an Elk at shorter range, or if I'll be allowed to wait for a textbook broadside at twice the distance.

And the only thing that REALLY bothers me about MBH is that they are not marketed as the specialty tool that they are, but as a panacea for anyone afflicted by tuning issues, an inability to get into closer range, or lousy tracking & trailing skills.

"And that big time archery guy that put his name on a mechanical recently. I think it was something like Ulmer Edge or something. Is he the 90% lazy or the 10% stupid?"

Neither. He's the .001% who is in a position to make money off of putting his name on an archery-related product, and he decided to go where the money is.

But that same head, in a 1 1/2" cut, would be a nightmare to tame in many western or mountain conditions. That's the problem with "one size fits all".

Anyone who tried to discount Ulmer and his accomplishments based on...basically nothing....isn't qualified to teach spelling.

Not even on the internet.

I've read more stupid $#!+ on this site by people who have no relevant experience and totally uninformed opinions on MBH's - whose uninformed opinions totally contradicts my actual experience with ~70 animals killed with them- to know better.

.

I think in the end, we rationalize the use of broadheads and anything else which might be the slightest bit controversial. We aren't always totally opinion-less and objective in the process leading to our decisions...quite the opposite. We choose our gear for a lot of different reasons and motivations. I know in my own case I have chosen equipment I wanted or liked and then later rationalized my decisions to use it. I see a huge amount of rationalizing about broadheads and much of it is logical...but still not proven to the level of being generally accepted facts. I don't see a lot of sense in the endless debating about mech vs fixed heads, but guys love to talk fuel injection vs carburetors too. Both work.

Here's my (ir)rational explanation for not using mechanical heads. Archery isn't a mechanical endeavor for me, and I have no desire to see my bowhunting success affected (positively or otherwise) by mechanical devices incorporated into my archery. My bowhunting sight picture has always held a good solid broadhead in there somewhere and it's as ingrained as the scent of string wax. I've evolved away from relying on things mechanical in my archery and bowhunting life, just as I've evolved more in the direction of relying on myself to solve a problem. I don't look for a better mousetrap usually.

I'm essentially saying we all have preferences and those lead us to the equipment we use, including broadheads. Once there, we defend and rationalize our choices if they are challenged. I do it too. I honestly try not to insult or indict the other guy's choices if they aren't like mine. Some hunters like completely b-t-t-w hunting rigs with every piece of tech available. Some go primitivo. Where they go off track is studying and judging the other guy's choices as inferior to their choice. And then you've got guys who infer they've been judged or insulted simply because someone else has a different or opposite opinion of what they like best. I have a strong belief this thread could go 100 or 200 posts and thousands of words...without changing a single mind or belief or behavior. Facts may change minds, but rationalizing can always be countered.

I didn't discount Ulmer or his accomplishments. I'm simply not going to use something because he attached his name to it for a price. As stated before his endorsement or use of these broadheads means nothing. It's good for him to do so but that doesn't mean it's good for me, for different and obvious reasons.

As far as the what if your perfect form goes bad at the shot arguement I don't buy it. If your form is perfect in practice and at the moment of truth it isn't then your fletching will guide your arrow to a different spot regardless of broadhead choice. If your form changes that much at the shot your not practicing enough, it's hard to undo muscle memory. I do agree these broadheads are the best option for those with inconsistent shooting because the picked up their untuned bow, for the first time, a week before the season opener( the lazy).

I understand the premise of your post but a lever provides a mechanical advantage. In reality you have decided to only use certain mechanical devices to hunt and that's perfectly ok as you use what you want and like.

I do think mechanicals would have killed me a few more deer over the years, but I think they would have lost me more. "

I shot an elk about 10 years ago. 60 lb bow. 390 gr arrow, mechanical BH. I made a bad shot, it went through near scapula penetrated off side scapula about and inch. Elk was dead in 30 yds.

Id like to make one clarification to a few about the Ulmer heads. It was named the Ulmer head because Rusty Ulmer, Randy's brother designed them. Not because Randy endorsed them. Randy shot Rage prior to Rusty's heads coming out. Lets at least get the facts straight. The Ulmer head is no longer produced.

I shoot the 125gn NAP Killzone. I prefer that head for what I believe is the most robust design. I agree with a lot that ambush has said. Two things that bother me most is when I hear poor about penetration, and when the MBH was open out of the quiver. Mechanical need momentum, if your shooting them with a light arrow your gonna get poor penetration. Also, for those of you in the MBH came open in the quiver. What part of mechanical opening as designed didn't you get? Shove a MBH in foam its probably gonna open as designed. They make quivers for them now however if your going to shoot mechanical, always, each and every time check them to be sure they are closed when you pull it out. If you dont want to be disciplined to do that , nothing wrong with that, then you probably want to stick with a fixed head.

Mechanicals are hear to stay and when used correctly with the correct equipment, arrow weight, etc. they are devastating. they keep evolving and getting better.

LINK who is in the fixed camp openly admits that there are junk Fixed heads out there, yet somehow those should not qualify for the argument. Really? Why? You group all mech heads into one group because of some "weird wounding story you heard" but when a fixed head breaks, no no that doesn't qualify.

I don't know why I even type in these threads cause everyone has made up their mind anyways. If you don't want to do some research and try something new, enjoy life with your head in the sand.

My favourite post has to be from HDE though, who (if I read it correctly) thinks what young guys write isn't worth taking to heart lol. Way to miss out on a ton of learning potential. I see just as much BS from all over the age demographic. Some guys try to sell you on the way they've done it, just because they've always been doing it that way. Then one day they look up from their typewriter and realize that editing something on screen actually might be more productive.

2) the blade angles are bad on large dia mech heads which forces them against hide and hair....more of a chopping action than the slicing of a tapered fixed design. So the mech puts cheap stamped blades in the worst possible scenario for maintaining sharpness. So this blade angle not only dulls the edge more...but it also limits penetration

2.5) Mech blades are thin, weak- 3) Mechs limit my shot selection....I have more shot options with the better penetrating foxed designs. The addl performance from a strong fixed COC head can turn a bad shot location into a killing shot. The difference is amazing almost guaranteeing 2 holes every time and they get through tough tissue to vital organs better.

4) I don't have to think about my BH at crunch time; No glancing at the head to make sure blades didn't open...and with a fixed, I don't have to worry about blades opening in flight. [shoot a mech long enough and this will happen] My total focus is on the shot.....NOT on my BH.

5) Animals shot with a mech head know they have been hit...and take off like they are on fire. On the contrary with a fixed COC head many times they have no idea what just happened. I have had much easier recoveries overall with COC heads.

My personal experience using fixed broadheads from a quiet recurve are surprising to most people. I've shot through several whitetails that heard the arrow after it passed through them. The arrow bounced through the leaves. The noise in the leaves alarmed the deer and they've run TOWARD me after the shot. This makes tracking them incredibly easy. About a half dozen deer have done this and all died within bow range without needing a second arrow. Your results may vary.

Whatever broadhead you choose, keep it shaving sharp and verify that it will go where you want it to.

Yes, to some broadhead (gear) choice is almost religious or maybe more appropriately cultish. I prefer to use a more scientific approach. We all decide how much "tech" we are going to incorporate into our pursuit and in the end it should make us happy and give a deep sense of satisfaction. I know guys who are totally happy, fishing for a week, hooking up one wild steelhead on a flyrod. Catching ten big kings a day on downriggers would do nothing for them. I'm the "other" guy most of time. I flyfish trout when fly fishing catches more fish.

I have one old Browning recurve, one warf, and two compounds. They are all fun and useful for different reasons. And they each utilize different accessories to best advantage. The one similarity that we all should share is that when we release that arrow, we should be convinced that we have done all within our control to ensure the final result is lethally quick.

Some revel and find solace in simplicity. Others get giddy and find great satisfaction in putting a system together then watching it perform as they imagined. Some go watch the Indy and some wander the old car show.

I am definitely not trying to convince hunters to use what I do. And I believe I should be accorded the same respect and not chided and derided by those that have chosen "their" way. That's the problem with zealots of any persuasion.

I shot 2 deer with a Rage. Second one the Rage looked like a wrinkled pop can, with bend ferrule & broken blades. No Rages for me. Too fragile for me.

With today's quality string materials and tunable bows, I see no need to shoot a mechanical. I can get FP & BH to hit the same at 50 yards and that's all I need.

Not the first time I said this: I plan for a perfect shot. I prepare for a poor one. I shoot a sharp, fixed BH on a heavy arrow.

I gave reasons for my decision that you as a mech shooter completely ignore.

Let's just take one; how do you Broadhead tune with mechanical broadheads? You can but it's not as easy. My guess is you don't and are OK with leaving that to chance.

Which is fine BTW. ... i have buddies that still shoot mech heads and i don't want to tick them off! Grin

And the difference is; I'm not saying your head is no good and so don't have to prove that isn't. But you are saying my choice is inferior. If I can truthfully claim that I have killed and seen killed many dozens of a wide variety of big game animals with Spitfires without a single failure, why wouldn't I continue to use them, when I see appropriate?

The other difference is I speak specifically about one MBH. I never do and never will say "all MBH's" or "all FBBH's".

I am a pretty average shooter. I don't always have perfect form and even less under many of the hunting conditions I find myself in. I'd love the luxury of telling that animal to take a time out while I find a good solid, level footing. And maybe have it move up or down the slope, so I don't have to bend like that. Since that is not likely, I prefer to mitigate for the circumstance that will most likely occur.

And you can shoot different broad heads into different mediums at as many angles as you want. But the rubber hits the road where the broadhead meets the flesh. I've done my "testing".

LOL

Use a junk Allens Wal-Mart head then if its far less critical

I always wait for the plywood to turn broadside.

So, to you, there is no difference between shooting a whitetail, from a tree stand at fifteen yards, than slithering down the steep back of a coulee and quickly drawing, while on one knee, as a big muley buck pops out of his bed at fifty yards with a twenty mph crosswind.

The 3D course that you lay out would be thirty deer all at twenty yards, on a level grass field, 'cause it's all the same anyway. I think I may just lol a bit myself.

Mech heads fail, junk head fail. You want to spend $1,000 on a bow set up, $500 on clothes and gear, $750 on tags, vacation days, time away from the family, hours of practice and then have a mech fail to open or thin blade crumple ??

Broadhead choice is critical. Period.

Everything in your bowhunting setup from boots to clothing to stands to gear is designed NOT to fail - choosing a mech head goes against what most bowhunters are trying for - fail free equipment.

Lots of guys don't like mechanicals and think they suck, but they stop short of saying anyone who does is stupid and unethical.

I like you, 'cause at my age, I like predictable. Kinda like knowing I'm going to have a good dump right after my second morning coffee.

What it boils down to is that I believe that it's more likely that I would experience a failure-to-deploy (or penetrate) issue than that I would have my fat pulled out of the fire by the extra cutting width.

YMMV

And FWIW, it's a hypothetical to me anyway, because my bows don't generate the horsepower that these things require in the first place.... But at least that means I'm not over-bowing myself trying to get there.

No APauls, you did not read it correct(ly). But you did a damn fine job of reading more into it than needed.

Hard angle shots, I did the test on plywood myself and had no issues. Steelheads deflected same time as Magnus Stingers and VPA's which I consider both to be outstanding heads. That being said, plywood would be much more prone to deflection that an animal, whose ribcage curves outward, and so to hit the goods you're almost always hitting them without an angle issue, into a softer tissue.

If the angle gets so steep that I'm worried about deflection, you prob shouldn't be shooting any head. I've head just as many deflection stories with fixed heads.

Let's assume a 10" target diameter on your kill zone, with the axis of the arrow to decide In or Out. If you cut inside the 10" line, you're In.

And if you assume a 2" cutting width on your mechanical vs. 1 1/8" fixed.

Then the extra width pushes your In/Out line 7/16" farther from center; if the blades are aligned with the radius of that circle, they both extend a cut to a maximum of 9/16" inside of the 10" circle.

So you compare a worst-case-but-still-lethal scenario with each of the two heads; the light grey shading is the area that your 1 1/8" blade could reach.

The dark grey shading is the "additional" area through which your blade could pass such that you would have a Linecutter scoring hit. Seems like precious little up-side to me.

And of course, that's the pessimistic view of things. You can calculate the areas of all the different size circles and build a pretty convincing-looking mathematical case for how big of an advantage a 2" head really is (vs. whatever smaller size) PROVIDED that it opens and penetrates the way you'd want it to...

The hell of it is that people can talk themselves into believing just about anything they want to...

They don't fail every shot. They DO fail .... they fail to open, the blades break off when a rock solid head like a Slick Trick etc wouldn't.

Yes, I can that with enough certainty, we see it every year from so many bowhunters and they swear to never use them again.

Shoot mechs if you want, they're legal. You can also lob arrows at 150 yards too, that's legal as well as shooting at running deer or shooting them in the butt. I don't recommend any of those, but you can legally do them.

A Slick Trick will do everything a mech will - it will shoot just as well, cut just as much with heavier blades that won't break and will never fail to be open. With so many solid broadhead choices out there I will never understand shooting a Rage etc.

Now there was one out there ... ? So many tests and it never failed to open nor did it break etc. Can't remember the name either, they don't advertise like Rage and they're not nearly as popular.

I don't know where you hunt but "wanton waste" of fish and game in my home state is illegal. If you purposely lob arrows at extreme distances, bad angles, poor placement-just to get one out there, you are probably breaking the spirit of the law and likely breaking other aspects of game laws too.

A game animal is just too important to "experiment" with some new age but poorly designed broadhead to see if it works. Its on the burden of the hunter- to KNOW it works. That is why you need to become proficient with equipment you intend to use. That means those arrows that fly just like a field point in the sales ads, need to demonstrate they do just that. Buy a few extra and shoot them (not their practice head-typically designed differently). If you find through field tests they fail or cause issues get rid of them. I did just that with several styles of mechanicals, don't care to experiment again. I KNOW they fail, period. Do I have an occasional issue with COCs, yup but no where near the issues from mechanicals the short time I used them. Still hear and see stories of their failures from others too. Once you trail a deer someone else shot poorly with a mechanical and all the innards are hanging out that point will become even more clear. If they are so damn good wouldn't see or hear about the failures would we??

Then, using the same logic, a mechanical is infinitely more accurate :)

And i said "its easier" for me to BH tune with fixed... i didnt say it couldnt be done with mechs.

Re effectiveness: I shot a dowhill 6 point bull through both scapulas with a coc fixed head.... and the bull just stood there for about 7 seconds ... lunged and fell over 8' from where i shot him.

The arrow went though that bull so fast and slick- he literally didnt know what hit him. ... and it went so far downhill we didnt bother going down to look for it.

Yep, IMHO a BHs design matters

Are we shooting spots or 8" kill zones? Fred Bear says you don't have to hit a quarter to kill. I also know a guy who couldn't keep rages from planing. Everything is subjective and relative, to suggest the only component to accuracy is your BH is lunacy. No doubt a BH can be your undoing but too many factors under normal circumstances to blame all inaccuracies to a bh, fixed or mech.

BH competitions keep getting referenced, I've shot a lot of comp but never heard of nor had the opportunity to shoot in one of these highly regarded BH comps. Are they sanctioned by IBO ASA..etc.? Where do they hold the BH nationals? Any magazine coverage?

That's part of the problem. You don't hear much about the ones that were hit in the same spot with fixed blade broadheads and were lost because they didn't leave any sign. The primary difference is the bowhunter who makes the bad shot with the FBBH isn't likely to try and make the BH as an excuse.

And folks who frequent internet bowhunting chat boards are much more willing to give those guys a pass.

A larger dia. head can leave more sign, but if it doesn't breach both sides than it probably won't.

A larger dia. head will be more lethal on a gut shot? Prove it. I still believe in shooting the best arrow/head combo I can for penetration, in my experience, narrow two blade heads do that better and they kill them just as dead in the gut, in fact the animal is much less reactive to a nice sharp narrow blade.

I have nothing against mechanicals, I used the spitfires for a long time, had two out of three blades fail to open on a turkey, shit happens, it's a mechanical device with moving parts. I think if I were to pick up a compound it would be 60# and I would build about a 600 grain arrow tipped with a 150ish grain grizzly and have the capability to shoot through the hip, gut, liver, lungs and break down a shoulder before exiting the deer. From 40 yards out.

what % broadhead failure is acceptable for you ? 1%? 3%? 10% ?

Would you shoot an arrow that so many people have posted as failing? strings? releases? your sights? NO! Ya'll wouldn't - you want your equipment to be as foolproof as you can make it

but you shoot mech heads that suck at penetration when shots aren't perfect, that have long thin blade than crumple and fold, use more energy on impact and are known to not open.

that's the baffling part to me .... would you use boots that leak sometimes? rain gear? shotgun shells that sometimes don't fire?

google rage failures .... the evidence is overwhelming that they DO fail and by fail I mean the head doesn't open or breaks

There are also satellite failures, blades breaking, blades coming out.

I have snuffer ss blades that have broken at the weld from hits on animals.

I have vpa heads that have broke blades as well.

Does this prove that ALL fixed heads are crap? Does rage failures so that ALL mechanicals are crap?

Not even in the slightest!!

I don't shoot mechanicals, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out!

Every head is different, Every design has differences.

Some good and some bad. This goes for fixed heads and mechanical heads.

I'd never shoot a Toxic broad head. It's a fixed head. Does it mean all fixed heads should be judged by this one? Only if you're closed minded.

I never said that but since you brought it up , the broadhead I choose to use will out perform the broadhead you are using, angled shots, penetration, flight , durability , you name it my broadhead will win in every case. so I'm up to the challenge , ARE YOU

I'm looking forward to the YouTube vids.

If you think long thin blades are as good as heavy sold ones .... I don't know what to tell you on that. Its like saying a fillet knife is as good as butchering an elk as a heavy bone knife.

Mechanicals use more energy to penetrate, fact. That's why so often they suck at penetration, they go in in 6" or 8" or 10" ...... that sucks.

Mechancials can fail to open - you can't say that about a fixed head.

They can cut wider than the average fixed head but if you want wide, shoot a Landshark etc - there are options if that's what you want with none of the mechanical negatives.

Do they fly better? From untuned bows yes. Lots of good broadheads on the market that fly like field points and are fixed

Mech's are legal - very good marketing and lobbying my manufacturers and they're likely here to stay.

I killed a doe with a Hypodermic last fall - it didn't break, it opened, it cut a hole like any other broadhead would have. Would I use a hypodermic again? Its not my first choice no - my first choice is a Slick Trick

2+2=4 is a "FACT".

"it's a fact your broadhead sucks" is not a "FACT". That's an opinion.

Ambush that's what I always thought too. Man did I miss a lot of problems because I didn't use the correct formula to get the right answer. This whole fixed mechanical thing must be the math teachers fault. Ha Ha

In the original post, I stated that if I always limited myself to twenty yards or less shots, then I would likely use a large, three blade head with a trocar-like point. I like big holes.

But, as also stated, that's not what I encounter on a lot of my shot opportunities. Longer ranges, adverse weather conditions, poor footing, steep angles, physical exertion, high pressure and just pure adrenaline charged excitement.

Now for the guys that are stacking arrows and busting nocks at sixty plus yards with their FBBH's. WHY did you fail to put your arrow right where you wanted it on that shot at a buck or bull? I've read dozens and dozens of post on here about guys that made a "marginal" shot on big game with fixed heads. And the common phrase that pops up is " that's hunting" and that's supposed to excuse it. WHY, if you're "busting nocks all day long", are you hitting high, low, shoulders and guts? Did you lose that perfect range form that you sighted your broadheads in with?

Now a question. Why do you put fletch on the rear of an arrow? What would happen if you put fletch on the front to and why wouldn't you do that?

There's maybe two ways to look at dealing with shots gone off target. Shoot a fixed head and hope to punch through that bone you hit unintentionally. Or shoot a head that is more forgiving of less than perfect launch and hit closer to where you were aiming.

If we all hunted with Hooter Shooters, there would be no debate. Or if we all just went to crossbows. But for a guy like me who has to practise just to stay average, I have to be realistic and use a strategy that will maximise my outcomes to the good. That means not shooting "extreme" bows, working a bit harder to cut the distance, and using a broadhead that is forgiving of my shortfalls.

There are a few super shooters on here that will tell me I should take up gun hunting because for me to bow hunt shows a lack of respect for the animal. And I will definitely take that suggestion seriously from anyone that has killed as many or more big game animals as me, without ever wounding and not recovering one.

The shortest tracking jobs on most animals shot with arrows have usually been due to them having a very big hole in them. Having a very big hole on two sides helps. 3- and 4- blade broad heads open the biggest standing open holes.

The best penetration across the board is a two-blade. The problem with 2-blades is poor blood trails. Have seen a number of animals lost and some very long tracking jobs with 2-blades, even with complete pass-thru shots and holes on both sides of the animal. The single-bevel broad heads do seem to put down a better blood trail and penetrate just as well as a double bevel - maybe better on bone.

I have seen quite a few mechanical broad head failures over the years - particularly on elk. Based on the failures I have seen in the past with mechanicals on elk, I do not recommend them for animals the size of elk or bigger even with a high draw weight compound.

That said, I have seen a lot more fixed blade failures than mechanical broad head failures - primarily because I have been around significantly more fixed blade broad heads. The majority of the fixed-blade failures were due to the blades popping out on replaceable blade type heads, but I have also seen quite a few solid broad heads bend (especially the vented type) or break at the ferrule.

In order for a mechanical broad head's blades to deploy, there has to be a loss of energy that has to result in reduced penetration vs a fixed blade. Additionally, the wider cutting surface will also limit penetration vs a narrower cutting surface. The blade angle and size will also be more apt to glance off at a steep angle than a narrower profile. Modern compounds generate plenty even at lower peak weights and with reasonable arrow mass behind a mechanical broad head, there is more than enough energy to push the broad head deep enough to provide a quick kill. The lost energy to deploy the blades and push a larger cutting surface through an animal tends to make them less than desirable for a traditional bow.

Newer mechanicals are probably tougher than many of the earlier models. If the blades do deploy and do not shear off, they will open a big hole and result in a short tracking job.

Mechanicals do tend to be easier to tune and are more accurate off of a high speed compound. If you feel more confident using a mechanical broad head, then use them.

The only time I personally felt I had the wind push an arrow was a 50 yard pronghorn shot with a Spitfire on the end, hit him in the femur, I assume, and he survived.

Other misses, and there have been plenty, were with Spitfires, Muzzy, Thunderheads and various others but none of them were due to the head design, it's just me f'in up the execution.

When I went to mechanicals it was because of the 'big holes' and, " flies like a fp " advertising and what I found was that although they worked quite well, they were a solution to a non existent problem and if they fail even once it just wasn't worth it to me.

After switching to recurves and building arrows for maximum penetration I have found that when I place a grizzly or TuffHead properly, not only are the animals dead just as quickly but they often don't travel as far because they tend to just walk or trot away. With mechanicals and trocar tip type heads the animals seemed to react more to the impact.

why?

thin blades, a weak design ........ and you were very saddened ? you should have expected it

SteveBNY if you are using a brand of compound known to fail over and over I agree - you'd be crazy to use one.

Rage and most mech heads give less penetration, use more energy, are known to not open at times and have long thin blades that bend/break

Will they work? Sure they will. Do they fail often enough to be a concern? I absolutely think they do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxP6JrRv6Ks&t=60s

it shows just how poorly mech's like Rage penetrate. I'm not satisfied with 6" of penetration on perfect shots ... because I know when shots are NOT perfect you're going to lose deer

do the animals die? I assume the video's haven't lied and those were the only shots - and I've said this a 1,000 times on perfect shots a junk Allens from Wal-Mart works.

what happens when the shots aren't perfect AND the heads open AND the blades don't break etc

Soooo...you used a mech and it performed as it should. Others have posted that they use mechs without issue, and have the kills to back it up. Yet you continue with your rant against mechs. Kinda like a guy that smokes, then preaches about the ills of smoking. What am I missing?

Er, something like that.

Come on hunting season!!!

wyobullshooter me using the mech was part of an agreement I made. I don't doubt they work most of the time. It didn't fail - but nobody ever said they fail 100% of the time have they? I didn't get passthrough but I didn't expect to - 63 pounds pull and 502 grains and a mech that uses a lot of energy to open and such. i actually kind like the Hypodermic design - but why would I want to continue using it when i can use so many other broadheads that are built stronger and sharper and fly just as good with no reports of failing to open and blades crumpling etc?

I've killed deer with Shockwaves, Vortex ... another kind i cannot remember the name of now. Fixed heads, 2 blades, 3 and 4 blades, reshapen and replace. I've killed animals with recurves, longbows, crossbows, old compounds all the way to the newest latest and greatest. Wood shafts, graphlex shafts, old aluminums, new aluminum's, carbons, carbon aluminums, 5" feathers, old vanes, new vanes ........ my point is I'm not new to this game.

Mech's use more energy Mech's can fail to open Mech's have long thin blades for the most part that can bend/break Mech's don't normally give great penetration as you can see in the above video that Rage people produced to show the amazing devastation of those heads

I believe mechanicals have been responsible for a lot of lost animals because they failed to open, blades bending, poor penetration that resulted in no blood trails etc. I see no advantages to shooting them over a Slick Trick and I see many advantages (as I've listed) to shooting fixed over mechs

I can change, if a mech is every designed that's Zwickey solid in performance, Thunderhead sharp, Slick Trick Tough etc ......... I'd consider using them. Until then, I see no use shooting them because they perform in several areas worse than what i'm already shooting.

There is at present no known cure for mecha-phobia.

The only person who may be proven to be correct is Kevin Dill. He predicted we would probably be beating on each other for at least two hundred posts.

Manufacturers sell things - they don't always sell good quality things, marketing is everything. Surely you know that ?

One issue though..... it was stated an untuned bow shooting a fixed head would have poor penetration as well. True. But chances are, the person shooting an untuned bow is not going to be shooting a fixed head. He will be shooting a mech head precisely because his bow isn't tuned and he can't hit a barn door with a fixed head. So he screws on a mech head and goes hunting, he doesn't screw one on and then go tune his bow...... the head did nothing to correct poor flight, it simply allowed him to get away with that poor flight.

IMO that is probably well over half the folks shooting mech heads. The people here on bowsite probably do shoot tuned bows and choose their heads for other reasons...... but to claim that was the why a majority of bowhunters choose them is..... incorrect, IMO. They shoot them because it's the only thing they can shoot out of their bow and hit anything with.

Another opinion is many people who shoot them tend to pull back off the shoulder, they know a long levered blade unsupported on the end doesn't do well with big bones. Many make the blades out of spring steel so as to "flex" around bone, but then we start to get into edge retention, etc. On the other end of the range I've had fixed blades I was trying out that failed on bone because the metal was TOO hard.... sharpest head I've ever shot, great edge and retention.... but brittle. Literally blew up on heavy bone.

Every head is a compromise. You don't get a big cut without sacrificing some penetration, etc., low blade angles cut better, but tend not to fly as well..... etc. Best a person can do us choose what are the most important features you want for the hunting you are doing and go from there.

Silverado I will concede they're making them better. It was the Quad Exodus that was mentioned that I was trying to think of before ..... I've read/heard they're very good.

for thousands of years slow bows with heavy arrows and 2 blade heads with around 3 to 1 ratio and 1" wide killed everything .... compounds came, fast came and now can't go hunting without a super wide mechanical head

good luck guys - ya'll shoot whatever you want and I hope you don't lose a single animal I really do

In many regards running up and down a mountainside, shooting kneeling and so on is going to give u a change in form and basically "an untuned" bow.

The penetration thing is more of a "different strokes for different folks"type of thing. Some guys like high speeds and light arrows to make up for being off yardage. 12 inches of penetration with a 2.3 inch hole is enough to some, and the deer don't seem to mind.

Again these threads are all in fun with more bs and trash talking then anything.

Wifish why does it matter whether it's thirty yards or 100? The slicktrick beat almost everyone at 30. I suppose it's going to all of a sudden come unglued at 80? A broadhead and fletching will have stabilized arrow flight before thirty yards. If it's flying true at 30 it's beyond me how it won't be at 100, unless it was windy. Who shoots 100 yards in windy conditions? Who shoots animals at 100, other than Levi Morgan? I think it makes since to test broadheads at distances that are shots taken by the masses, maybe 40-50 down to 20.

So you are just going to assume that everyone torques their bow beyond tunability at the moment of truth? I'm pretty sure there are a lot of guys on this site that disagree with you they just don't want to speak out against the mechanical cult. ;)

The sample pool for fixed heads was over 7 times larger. Like I said this is a very poor test to use in a debate like this.

more surface area .... a 4 blade Slick Trick has how much total cut vs a 2 blade expandable?

You say that most/many mech shooters don't have tuned bows as opposed to fixed shooters. And now, to dismiss a study that refutes some of your other arguments, you claim sixty percent of fixed shooters, in the study, probably don't have tuned bows??

Could it just be, that there is an equal amount of "un-tuned shooters" in both categories?

In the study, could it be that the MBBH shooters are simply experiencing better accuracy and therefore higher recovery? Then the question is, why.

Does the study indicate that hitting where you aim is marginally better than having the supposed bone busting advantage of a fixed head?

Funny how Stealthy can post some vids and hold them as definitive, but an actual unbiased, scientific study under controlled conditions is dismissed as "flawed".

Then you have me and the guys like me, that are not and never will be "top" athletes in in our field. For many reasons, we will never have that rock solid, never flinching Hooter Shooter like release and follow through every time. Especially at the crucial few shots a year where it matters most. Most of us don't get to shoot a dozen whitetail does or dozens of pigs every season, to practice under real hunting conditions.

So the real world question remains: is there an advantage to more forgiving broadhead flight for Joe Average hunter, while still maintaining the plus's of a large cut?

And don't you have job? Surely you don't have as much time to waste as me?

Stealthy I'd shoot up to 1.5 13/8. Anything bigger and I think the negatives negate any gains.

" And, Link, if what you say is true, then an untuned bow with a mechanical is more proficient than a tuned fixed shooter." Explain. I've never argued against someone that can't tune shooting a mechanical. If bows are tuned......advantage fixed head l, if untuned ....advantage mechanical. It's that simple.

but a 1.25 or 1 3/8" head is just not big enough? even when considering cutting with 3 or 4 blades vs 2 blades ?

I mean the cutting diameter argument doesn't hold water - and of course the more cut, the more energy used and the less penetration etc

you can literally use rusty old satellite heads - legal BTW, from an untuned 25 year old PSE Thunderflight - legal BTW and use a slightly bent xx75 shaft - legal ...... and if you hit the deer behind the shoulder no issues

when the shot doesn't go as planned ? and I guess it never happens to you world class shooters, but it does to me ........ when shots go bad, I want a heavy arrow carrying good momentum, I want a tough shaft and I want the business end of it to be extremely durable and sharp - and that gives me maximum chance at a pass through, a blood trail and best chance for me to get my animal

mech's are legal, shoot 'em if you want, but the argument that they're better just doesn't come to me as reasonable and logical, not with all the great fixed blades on the market today

And just a disclaimer, I'm not a fan of all mechanical heads. I just really like the one that I shoot. But this study suggests that mechanicals in general are at least as good if not better at killing deer than fixed heads. And I think the sample size in the study was pretty good. I also think you need to be careful about what mechanical you choose if you are after elk and bigger animals.

And you think you're going to solve a broadhead debate?

Now we are just trying to detirmine how MUCH better mechanicals are than fixed.

Just the ones who don't and/or won't use them.

Does this mean I'm going to eventually need a doctor's excuse to shoot a 2-blade Abowyer out of a longbow?

who said gut shot ?

I've killed enough animals to know that I will not shoot 100% perfect shots in the future. yes I know that for a fact. I TRY to shoot perfect but its bowhunting, things happen, I understand this.

So yes - I want a setup that gives me the best chance when shots go bad. If your setup only works great when shots go great, what happens when they go bad ?

That's what we see over and over in so many posts every fall - light arrows, fast bows and mech heads, a not perfect shot, a no passthrough, lost animals. over and over and over

I've also hunted with some guys shooting different heads and seen some things.

I've seen some shots that I don't think a mech head would have performed (most notably, a doe that I killed at 20 yards with a VPA where the leg bone was struck dead center. Broken leg bone, pass through, with the VPA on a 520 grain total weight arrow).

I've seen some shots that I believe the animal would have been lost with a fixed blade smaller diameter.

I've lost a couple animals myself that POSSIBLY would have been recovered with a larger cutting diameter. (Who knows???)

Then, I've talked to and know about guys that shoot a LOT more animals than I do, and some of them use mechs. Quite proficiently and with deadly results.

I'm planning a couple hunts. I may get to the point that I keep a couple VPA tipped arrows in the quiver along with a couple arrows tipped with mechs.

It comes down to confidence in your equipment. And sometimes, if you're shooting mechs, maybe you don't take the same shots as you do with a fixed. I personally like to hug the vital triangle and flirt with those big bones. I can do that with a quality fixed head. I've shot through or skipped off bone enough to be confident that I can get away with it with my setup on deer and smaller creatures. With a mech, I'd probably not flirt with those bones as much. That's fine too.

The tuned bow and experience argument don't hold water. Sure, some people use mechs as a crutch when they can't get their bow tuned. I've done that personally. (If you've ever tried to keep a Hoyt Trykon in tune, you've probably pulled hair out of your head at some point--most finicky bow ever and I shot one for 9 years).

But, there are plenty of experienced bow guys that can tune the crap out of anything with a wheel and a string, that still choose mechs.

Bake

Why do you insist that everyone that shoots a mechanical uses a light arrow, a fast untuned bow and loses lots of animals ?

I really doubt whether I would have recovered that animal with my VPA at 1 1/8. I really doubt it. So even though pure gut, I believe that extra diameter made all the difference.

:)

Blades opening before the shot or in the air is not an issue???? ... or the "I've NEVER bent a blade"...... oh Cmon!?

Those are 2 issues with mech heads that can be ignored...but not denied.

Lots of stats tossed around.....but I bet 9 of 10 bowhunters don't BH tune....whatever it is ...its a high percentage.

I do think those guys are much better off with a mech head.

I shoot an Xpedition - radically different than even the Drenalin I shot. But a 2 blade mech heads I see having zero additional qualities compared with a Thunderhead 3 blade and in fact, because they can fail and are not as durable, LESS qualities.

That's not moving forward, that's moving backwards.

"Like I've said we are the minority, I bet over 50% of bowhunters cannot tell you how much their arrow weighs let alone worried about it weighing enough."

true - and those same guys watch Rage sponsored shows and just screw 'em on and hunt

So far 12yard is the only one that has presented a verifiably factual, unbiased, scientific study. The end conclusion was that, in the real world, with average hunters, shooting real deer, the recovery rate was higher for mechanicals. We can speculate all we want as to why, but the end results are more deer recovered. And that should be everyone's goal. The results doesn't mean everyone should go out and buy mechanicals for the upcoming season. But it should be enough to dispel the hard held belief that all mechanicals are the devil in regards to hunting.

Of course the fifteen hundred hunter/ deer sample does not even come close in credibility to the story from a neighbour's, son's high school friend that made a "perfect shot" on a big buck and didn't recover it.

I give up on having a rational discussion.

Cheers and happy hunting all.

Way too many variables to call that unbiased and scientific, but it semi supports your efforts which is why you're bias in regard to it.

"hard held belief that all mechanicals are the devil in regards to hunting"

98% of that statement is your interpretation of the situation, I wouldn't state that as fact. Its funny you're fired up of what you think others think, thats good stuff.. lets keep this one going.

Besides, is it even rationale to believe that a mechanical device won't be, at least to some degree, more prone to mechanical failure?

Real world Rage video I sponsored shows horrible perpetration on perfect shots ...imagine how bad it would be on non-perfect shots

That's like comparing a Muzzy to a Slick Trick..

Oh yes I DID!

.....and I am down on guys citing "Scientific studies" when they aren't.

A scientific study is controlled for all variables except the one tested. Now I think some conclusions can be made by the way the study was conducted...namely, like I said previously...the avg hack bowhunter is probably better off with mech heads as they are more forgiving of zero to poor tuning. [please don't misinterpret as all bowhunters using mechs are hacks...thats NOT what I said]

Look, we know the vast majority of Bowhunters don't BH tune....at least according to the 2 guys I know that own archery shops...guys I see on the range and all of the questions weekly on forums re; tuning.

I know of a couple cases where a mech heads blades opened in flight or from quiver to shot....like the story I told of a buddy losing the buck of a lifetime. Its rare...but it happens.

I know a bunch of guys shooting mech heads....they work...thats undeniable too!

But I shoot with a lot of those guys shooting mech heads and none of them have a bow that I would call tuned. In fact many gave up on tuning and shoot mechs as a short cut. If they are happy...its all good [we never discuss it] ...but it ain't "better"

What, not everyone on this site shoots 40# with Rage BH's? I would hope people don't watch the huntertainer's TV shows and assume that their results are typical. By and large they hunt for the camera and could care little about when the recovery happens (or if the meat is salvageable).

I have shot a ton of animals with a 2" Vortex and get full penetration 90%+ of the time - even with a 27.5" draw length.

Perhaps you can't always believe what you see on TV?

Rage is #1 isn't it ?

A passthrough is punching holes in both sides .... arrows needs to be right there or not far from impact because those 2 holes means best chance at a great blood trail and maximum cut

Oh yes I DID!"

That's funny right there^^^ ___ I would say that you are right. None of the trash you are shooting belongs in the same sentence with Rage... LMAO!

Wart, its pretty simple, Its a small piece of the overall equation. You're 27.5" could still be faster than another's 29" or even 31; so no it doesn't mount to a hill of beans. SO please do not omit information and expect the masses to buy your bullsnot. I'd have to say at this point you're a pretty shitty representative for your company.

When can we expect to see the videos of your bh out performing all others? God I hope we don't have to watch plywood getting shot up, poor innocent wood.

I need to make this a tshirt with "Ruck Fage" on the back.

Bigger cut is better, right? Pass through is irrelevant right? long thin blades doesn't matter right? uses more energy? so what, I've got like 85# KE

I don't think anything can go wrong

Ah, the one thing you apparently don't know.... Draw length has implications to power stroke, which has implications to arrow speed/energy, which has implications to penetration.

Light skinned deer, light skinned hogs, light skinned bears, light skinned elk - lot's of light skinned game.

I don't think MBH's are the best tool for every job, but lots of people - many with little direct experience - vastly overstate the penetrate penalty that results from blade actuation, wide cutting diameter, and obtuse blade angles.

I thought more highly of vortex bh's before ward started interjecting.

In one case had two deer same trail, same position within about a minute of each other. One shot with jack hammer, one shot with COC . Anyone wanna guess which one was recovered in a short distance the other one lost??

The COC head didn't fail to open, I can tell you that.

I find people that blame their equipment for lost animals are usually willfully unprepared or unwilling to look themselves in the mirror to find the real reason for their failure.

Rage have improved since and I would be inclined to try them or other MBH on does, but I do not have the confidence in them to pursue trophy deer or anything thicker skinned.

The deer I shot w/ the spitfire was a follow up shot. The deer was dead on his feet and had already fallen down twice after a thunderhead zipped through him so fast he didn't know he was hit. The spitfire was square in the middle of the ribcage and 50/50'd the arrow. I know had the shot been w/ a thunderhead it would've been a full pass through.

And if the spitfire providing you with better pentration on the first deer is "pure speculation" then a thunderhead "blowing" thru would fall into the same boat rather than knowing, in my opinion. If u hit middle of the ribcage, theres zero reason you didnt pass through outside the fact that your setup is not a good enough one to shoot anything but a fixed blade. But thats just from my experience, so purely speculating....

Now that would be a fun thread. :)

Do this. Design a radically new looking head. Pay big bucks for a celebrity who's personable and attractive to spend a year killing a bunch of game. Set up marketing and sell at Wal-Mart as well as the DVD's and in the sporting dept have that film running 24x7x365

You'll be a millionaire.

Of course, don't tell anyone all the animals shot and lost and how much you had to pay to get in those high fence areas or sweet lightly hunted spots etc. Am I suggesting Rage does it kinda like that? Dang right I am

makes perfect sense to me

I also know lots of successful bowhunters that use mechanicals.

Few of the best bowhunters out there use only mechanicals. Guys like Randy Ulmer, all shoot mechanicals. Randy is super anal about his equiptment. He shoots mechanicals because of how accurate they are and forgiving they are of hunting situation shots. If mechanicals sucked so bad and didn't work those guys wouldn't be using them.

If Ulmer doesn't get paid to shoot a certain head, then I'm impressed. I'm betting every bit of gear he uses is sponsored though. Maybe I'm wrong

He said he uses a hooter shooter and finds mechanicals to be much more accurate than fixed blades and more forgiving

Just for a straw man - per the OP's fun counter questions... I always wonder why everyone pushes fixed heads as holy grail's of shoulder blade penetration when the shoulder blade, and even shoulder joint and upper humorous are a pretty small percentage of the potential areas you could hit if you screw up a shot.

For giggles I've shot rages with one and two blades open, and at least on shots I took out to about 30, the POI change was hard to tell from my normal groups. I know good archers who have noted on forums or what not that they shoot corkscrews and discover one blade opened. I dont understand how that's identified - admittedly, that's based on my experiences with mech's. But it seems one would need high speed video of the shot to really verify that occurred. That said, I have missed a deer with fixed blades shooting cork screws only to discover that a very short distance in front of me was a very small twig on a sapling that impacted my shot just enough to create some really awesome patterns. Not saying that's the only reason this can occur, but I'd bet it's more common than people think.

One's bias, well, it can be a tough beast to cut through.

To me, it really comes down to what your equipment is, how you hunt and what you would like to try. There are many awesome fixed blades, and Mech's today. My wife, with her 24~ ish inch draw shooting about 45#, I'd not suggest she swap out of her trusty stingers for Grimm Reaper Whitetail Specials... But with my 90+ ft lbs of energy, I'm perfectly happy and have seen great performance with my 2+" mechs.

As the infamous line goes: "Cant we all just get along" :)

Did Ward make a video yet?

But I bet they fly great!

Over 300 posts to determine whether a mechanical device can fail or not. And you all questioned TBM's intelligence. Lol

And I'll never trust the opinion of a man who stands to benefit monetarily from that opinion. And that goes for Ulmer and Ward, two men who I respect very much and are two of the best hunters alive. The reason our political system is broken is because, in general, the integrity of men shrivels in the shadow of the power of money. You can't trust anyone who stands to make a buck off of what they say you should do. Or else you'll be duped most of the time.

It's called a "conflict of interest." And it's why it get's thrown out of court - because you can't make a fair judgement based on it.

If your entrance hole is twice as large, but you have no exit are you winning? I know we've all had amazing pass through experiences, and most of mine are as well, but even with fixed heads a pass-through is not guaranteed. Plain isn't. The only hole you can guarantee is an entry hole, and if you get past one single layer of bone, you're into the good stuff. So for the medium sized game especially what's the problem? I shot a Rage hypo for the first time this fall on a big CDN whitetail and had same thing. Arrow stopped at offside shoulder, which I must admit irked me. Buuuuuuuut the thing had a massive hole, and died running full tilt in 40 yards, so I really can not complain. Blood was excellent. So I wasn't impressed, but when I really think about it, I am prob judging the head by standards it is not designed for.

As to the advantage of using a smaller stouter mech head like the steelhead, for ME the advantage is in forgiveness. I still have a super strong, dependable, durable head the flies wicked accurate and is at the utmost of forgiveness. Yes, I can also have any manner of fixed heads fly the same under practise circumstances. But hunting is not practise. Often a quick snap decision is made to shoot through some brush where I see a hole. after sitting for 6 hours in very very cold temps. That is not a practise situation. Before you say I should trim my shooting lanes better I decide to hang in a new spot most times I hang and bring the stand with me each time. Personal decision, just like the heads we choose :)

Thankfully there are plenty of level headed folks to counter that.

Idyl: 12yards posted a study that did just what you suggest. A study taking into account all the variables that would occur during an actual hunt with only the broadhead type being used as the distinguishing, testable variable. In other words, what will happen if all the variables are constant except the broad head.

Beendare:, you post a pic of a broadhead that snagged a fluff ball of peripheral feathers and claim "broadhead fail". That head did not hit the turkey in the body. The shooter missed his target and skipped it off the bird, and the arrow then slowed and just landed on vegetation. Feel free to post the actual scenario and broadhead make/model, if I'm wrong. If the shooter had been using a fixed head and made the same glancing shot, would you have called that a "broad head fail", or just a miss?

And one more time: there is much more to it than just the "fail to open" mantra some are keen on painting the whole discussion with. Tunnel vision is a view, just not a very good one.

And as stated by someone above, that's not the mechanical I shoot, so why does it condemn mine? Anymore than a junk Walmart fixed head condemn yours?

If we could count on everybody being totally honest; it would be very interesting if, on all the "Meat Pole" threads, shooters could post the broadhead make/model, recovery distance, time elapsed, bow and arrow specs. For dead animals and non recovered. That would be lot of "real time" info for objective review and education.

How much is quantifiably lost? Afterall, the only thing keeping most of these blades in is a rubber band used for braces.

why not ?

The "study" is more of a survey, the author allowed way too many variables into his study for it to be remotely valid. If one were to be as close to scientific as possible you'd either have a large group of similarly experienced hunters shooting the same equipment except BH, or you have a small group shooting both bh equally.

It would be nice to get explicit details about harvest photos, and some pictures of wounds would be cool. But too many are like to and post the same pic over and over saying "This one didn't like RAge".... I've noticed another thing, aside from sponsorship, not a whole lot of talk about pass throughs. Call me old school, but I like to find my arrow laying near where I shot.

Hey, I shot mech heads for probably 10 years and killed piles of pigs and critters with them while doing dep work on state parks shooting as many as 4 pigs a day [going out with my bow instead of the dogs].........Of course mech heads work.

In my experience, mech heads aren't better, no advantage....not even close.

I've killed two bull moose with Spitfires and my partner has killed four. All one arrow and short blood trails. Actually most didn't need any trailing, just walk over to where we watched them dropped

Are there inherent advantages to a MBH that can (sometimes) out weigh the inherent disadvantages of the design?

A simple "No" is not really helpful either.

I also killed a doe last fall with a VPA that I shot clean through both shoulder blades. That shot would not have ended well with the big mech I used on the turkey.

Broadheads are a tool. Just like your bow or your arrows. Use the right tool for the right job. You don't use a bat to play football do you?

I've had many pass through shots with mechs. Some with over the tops and some with different 2bld versions of rages (originals, hypo's, extremes - my current preference). The one that stands out most was a doe a couple years ago. It was a shot from about 25 feet (stand 20 up, she was about 5 more down hill in a little trough). The shot was about 20 yards. Entry was just in front of the back leg, near the top of the deer (not literally, just about 3/4 up). Arrow went all the way through, came out busting a rib in front of the off side front leg - basically low chest. Arrow stuck in ground beyond deer on other side of the trough she was standing in. That was with a Rage Extreme. Now, someone could say: "that was a 120# doe" (because it was), and that would be true. But, if penetration on a 250# buck is feared, is that "really" tougher than going through a deer on about the longest diagonal an arrow can take through a deer, breaking a bone on exit and sticking in the ground? I'm certain that a silver flame would have done the same thing... But given that type of performance is what I've consistently had with mechs (that was the sharpest quartering away shot I've had in my 30~ years of hunting, other pass throughs have been closer to broadside or slightly less angled), I'm in favor of the big holes vs potential penetration gains.

Works for me, may not for someone else...

Its common for people to get the idea that there is some sort of mysterious quality that makes a head work way better or worse than what you would think at first glance.

Nope. Any big game from anywhere.

My first two animals in RSA were very different. A Klipspringer at about five yards and a Zebra at thirty five yards. The little Klipspringer went down in his tracks. The Zebra made it about seventy yards. Both Spitfires

A slingshot w/ a steel ball would pass through a klipspringer!

Again, select details missing. Are you saying these were the only 2 you passed through? What about all the other game?

I know some good bowhunters that use a mech head with appropriate bow/poundage/arrow/tuning....I have no beef with them....as I said different strokes. There are inherent problems with some mech head designs.....these guys have a work around and understand their equipment. When talking about the masses....I doubt they consider the ins and outs.

[re the pic of the slick trick] You aren't trying to say all fixed heads are the same are you? FWIW, I don't like thin replaceable blade fixed heads either...I like a strong heavy blade of decent steel....but that isn't germane to this discussion.

I killed ten animals. Interestingly, I shot a big bodied wart hog with a Sluck Trick, complete pass through. Blood everywhere and just splushing out as he ran!!

We followed the blood and found him under a bush 150 yards later

Later I shot an old pig, with a Spitfire, hard quartering to, right in front of the shoulder, at the PH's request. Complete pass through and that one died within twenty yards. So you really don't know what you got till it's over.

2) your arrow assembly, arrow weight and how you confirm every heads blades are perfect before the shot...or do you check?

3) your shot selections- what you are limited to with a mech head

4) Testing, how you do it without wrecking an bunch of heads...

Those would help your argument.....

The warthogs over there seemed pretty soft compared to the feral pigs here. But they are tasty thats for sure!

On a fixed head you need to sharpen it, thus removing steel. You need to change the head. If we're getting anal, it's no longer the same as the last time you shot it.

Personally I don't go hunting until i can shoot all the fixed heads in my box well out to and past 60 yards. Then I may or may not tie on a mech head depending on when/what I am hunting.

Beendare: I've never shot a bow over seventy pounds. My current hunting bows are a 60# Mathews Drenalin and a 65# Mathews Heli'm. Both solo cams, at twenty nine inch draw length and I think around 315 IBO fps. I've never had nor wanted a speed bow.

I have a press and a draw board. I set everything to factory specs to start. Cam timing, axle to axle, brace height, cam lean and rest. Shoot some paper and diddle with yoke twists a bit. I'm not a keen paper tuner anyway.

Outside with a couple of bare shafts, then fletched shafts and three blade fixed heads. Often Thunderheads. I have quite a selection of old heads. Once my hunting arrows have field tips and fixed heads hitting together I test shoot my MBH's. I sometimes still have to add a twist or two to a yoke to get it right, but usually rest adjustments are enough by then.

I don't like changing gear all the time and have been using the Easton Axis now for several years after using Bemans for many years. I foot the arrows to provide a strong sidewall and to give the broad head a thick, solid shoulder to tighten up against. I precision grind both ends of my shaft in a lathe. Superior to the much better-than-nothing ASD's available. That perfectly square, solid shoulder ensures that my long Spitfires spin true. I have also had to machine the odd broad head shoulder.

My arrows are always between 425 and 450 grains finished for these two bows. The heaviest I've ever shot regularly is 475.

I've compared my Spitfire practice heads enough to the hunting heads to be confident they impact the same, so I don't wreck hunting blades anymore. I religiously spin test all heads on the arrow they will be shot on.

My broadhead does not enter into my shot selection. It's either a shot I'll take or it's not.

I can say I have never not passed through a deer w/ a rib shot with fbh, however I did not pass through with 2 different mbh. Disclaimer time.. I know this is a small sample/ anecdotal but much like the advocates for mbh who have had acceptable performance I have not, so why would I continue to use them? My experience is the one most fear, good shot poor performance which has higher odds of happening w/ a mechanical. I like the sharpening comment, pretty comical.

Doyou think the vast majority go through a detailed assembly/tuning process? Me either....thats why I said the avg guy benefits shooting mech heads. It is an advantage for a guy not meticulously assembling arrows or tuning.

I think where we differ is shot selection. I will shoot [lets call it] Big Dans collar shot on an up close elk without hesitation- 100% success. I will take frontals, steep quartering, etc assuming they are close shots I can pinpoint before the animal has time to react...and have many times with a 100% success rate. My arrow penetrates like crazy and can get through the vitals from many different angles. I cut my teeth on hogs with thick shields that do a number on expanding bullets and expanding BH's. Its the longer shots that have been less than perfect for me...so I just don't shoot those anymore.

I know what my setup is capable of...as do you...kudos to you sir. I like that I can shoot a hog about to charge me from 9 steps and know my arrow will equal a .44 mag between the eyes[ pictured, you should be just able to see the nok peeking out.] I wouldn't take that shot with a mech head.

So yeah, different strokes, agreed. Better...and you get an argument from me- grin.

People don't want to use them on big game because they can fail. People don't want to practice with them because they're not that durable really. Lets just say it and not sugar coat it, k ?

"I switched from fixed heads to mechanicals in 2008. In that time I've shot 15 deer with mechanicals and I've had two holes in every deer. Total arrow pass through on 13 out of 15. One I hit the off leg and my arrow didn't go through but there was a hole in the armpit."

Similar shot: Granted, a doe (I'm assuming your deer was a buck). Shot was in the near-side arm pit with the near side leg back and exited the opposite side arm pit with the far-side leg forward. In rib, out rib at the arm pit, snapped the humerus in 1/2, exited and stuck a few inches into the dirt after breaking 3 bones and cutting hide 4 times. VPA 125 grain unvented. Arrow weight 420 grains. Draw wt 52 lbs. Draw length 29.5 inches. I had far better penetration with a lessor bow. Again - anecdotal. But I was impressed with the results. The deer was not able to run away due to one of it's legs being nearly cut off - that's convenient.

Just trying to help hit the 400 mark

But the amazing thing that the study demonstrated, is even if they pass through less often (which we don't know if they did or not), they still allowed for a higher recovery rate than fixed heads on deer.

And as long as the topic is deer, then by all means shoot'm w/ whatever ax you want. They aren't half as tough as some of you make them out to be, so no pass throughs are not impressive.... unless you shoot'm long ways.

If penetration was a non issue w/ mbh, and these steelheads out penetrate fbh, then how many mbh threads are on the leather wall? Just curious, never been there.

#375 and counting!

Rage on camofire now!!!

Rage on camofire now!!!

BTW... Ward promised me some video footage, he hasn't posted much so I'd imagine he's working on his camera angles.

stealthycat, yes depending on the fixed head. I'm sure some would penetrate as good or better, others not as good. I think there are some fixed heads that have a terrible ferrule design and some 4 blade fixed that the steelhead will do as good or better on penetration. I also believe some fixed heads with vented blades would not penetrate as good as a steelhead. I've shot deer with vented fixed heads that got plugged up with hair that probably could inhibit penetration.

The study is not invalid. It is only invalid to those that don't like the results.

So from 1989-2012; tell me about the mechanical bh's they were using in 1989. Please bc I am very unfamiliar with what mbh's were available and how prevalent they were.

I don't buy that the stats remain the same, equipment improvements alone have made the avg archer look good and a lot of fbh have been slim lined to improve accuracy. I also do not buy his statement that the sample size was large enough to essentially washout all the variables, he is just trying to justify his "research". Most importantly I'd like to know who funded the project considering one mbh's vast advertisement budget.

It would take a miracle for you to sell me on that article. All credibility was gone when he compared 800+ Fbh kills to 200 Mbh kills.

Next time anyone shoots a deer w/ a vented blade that gets clogged with hair I'd really like to see it. I've never seen one and I can't say I've ever heard anyone say their blade got clogged.

Some guy shoots two each of several broadheads through gelatin, cement board, plywood, phone books, pig ribs, etc.. The "winning" head's proponents declare it scientific proof, while the losers dismiss it as bunk since we don't shoot animals made of those materials.

Someone shows several videos of the poor performance of a head that they despise and offer that as proof positive, no bias, end of story, 'nuff said! And everyone should just accept that as good science.

Nine more to go to hit four hundred.

And still over three weeks till bear hunting for me. Who knows, after all I've learned , I may just screw on one of the old five blade heads I still have kicking around. The ones that spin to enhance penetration! Hmmm, a spinning mechanical?? Big advertising budget, a few celebrities in pocket......???

A lot of people lose animals with them too and sour on ever using them again. Nobody wants to talk about that though.

We haven't even discussed the proper amount of FOC needed for mechanicals to work to their fullest potential!!

are we there yet? 400 and I'm out!

I've seen it. Doubt it had much affect and not something I worry about.

Check please.

I have never been much on guided hunting or celeb hunting or anything like that. I'd consider anything, I am flexible and if there is a mech that it totally bomb proof I'd switch IF there are advantages, I just have yet to see one ;)

Like I said, I made an agreement to shoot hypodermic +P or whatever they're called and I killed a doe, it was the same results I'd expect any 2 blade head to give, it didn't fail to open and it didn't crumple or anything. I see no advantages to using it over my Slick Tricks and the chance it doesn't open and knowing its not as tough as a Slick Trick and it uses more energy means I have no reason to shoot it.

1) Punchcutter.

There, settled.

:)

If Rage paid me $$$$$$$$$$ a year, I'd shoot them and tell everyone how great they were and I'd never say a word about all the animals I lost etc.

Everyone has a price. Rage - you want stealthycat on your side? sponsor me .... I can be bought

Ohio - sorry for late reply, been driving home from a family fun and fishing trip in FL - ooph, two days in the car is a LONG time - not sure how truckers do it. For me, it's way over 50% pass through. Most would be more accurate. I can think of the specific non pass through instances, and 2 were spine hits and the last one was on buck a few years ago. pretty close shot, and the arrow went in where I aimed, highish on the near side, and ended up stuck in the heavy cartilage just to the off side of the sternum. All of those fell in sight. I'm going to say 85-90% pass through's. Now, in saying that, I'm including a couple times with mech's over the years where the head went all the way through, but part of the arrow did not. In other words, the head and some amount of shaft poked out the off side, but the whole arrow did not come though. That was unusual for me, so it stands out a couple (2) times in my mind. Again though, I shoot way overkill energy for deer. It makes sense given the heads I like to shoot, but not for everyone.

C'mon 500! :)

Form issues are a reality when you are in a stand for 8 hours dressed like a marshmellow because it's so cold you're worried about the noise of turning your head because that means you'll snap the icicles that have formed from your schnoz running down your neckwarmer...

I hunted with a guy a number of years ago that "flagged" 8 Elk in one year, all fixed head shots; the record for dip shittery as far as I know. Pretty sure those numbers can be matched with mech head users as well. I doubt the contributing factor is the head on the arrow but more likely the head above the shoulders.

I guess some people simply cannot handle the excitement regardless of how many times they draw back. Kind of like poor test takers who are seemingly brilliant.

Amen. It only took 420+ posts to sum it up perfectly. Put a competent shooter that takes his craft seriously enough to ensure whatever equipment he/she's using performs at it's peak potential and it doesn't matter if it's fixed, mech, or flint. Put a shooter that doesn't give a rat's a$$ how his/her equipment performs, and it doesn't matter if it's fixed, mech or flint, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

Who the heck counts # of posts? And I thought I was bored!

Or has a closet of junky mechanicals?

"Quit lying Dave. We've read all through this thread that you cannot achieve that kind of success with a mechanical. And you cannot say a broadhead did not fail if it had a bent blade, didn't pass through, or could not be resharpened and used again. Doesn't matter if the animal is dead, found and in the freezer. If any of the above happened to the broadhead, it was a complete failure and you would have been better served with a fixed head. ;^D"

12yards - Good one, love it ;)

.............................. ..Percentage of Hit Deer Recovered per Choice of Broadhead

Period..................... Fixed Broadhead .............................. ....Mechanical Broadhead

1989-2006..................82.1% (746/908)......................... N/A (Mechs were not allowed)

2007-12.....................81.0% (128/158).......................... ............... 90.9% (209/230)

2013-15.................... 81.1% (30/37)........................... .................. 91.0% (61/67)

1989-2015................. 82.0% (904/1103)......................... ............... 90.9% (270/297)

Clearly the statistical recovery advantage of mechs over fixed blades is still strong (p = 0.001 for you stat guys). One may wonder why mechs were not allowed in the first era (1989-2006)? – it was because we thought that they would adversely affect wounding rates. We allowed mech use starting in 2007 so that we could gather data to prove that mechs they were a bad idea for bowhunting. Our initial assumption about mechs was wrong. Bowhunters whose experiences with mechs are poor should certainly continue to use fixed blade broadheads. And if the risk of structural failure, pre-mature opening, or failure-to-open bothers you, then continue to use fixed blades. If one wishes to experiment with mech blades, then do not worry about reliability or penetration issues; the data show that these concerns (on average!) are of little consequence (with respect to deer recovery) relative to the use of fixed blade broadheads.

-fsh

And then on the other hand, you consider the campfire banter amongst your anti-mech buddies as irrefutable fact. That's real science, eh.

Trad guys don't generally use them because they suck too much energy when opening. Maybe on little deer, might be a great thing. I don't know. I'm still fiddling around with my game cams and don't have enough brain power to figure this out....

Actually, I think there is a mechanical model called "VORTEX". Sounds like it should be "good for the money", as they say. lol

If you lose nothing and gain everything by using mbh, why wouldn't you suggest it? I thought this was the support line for MBH's? Some are saying that some mbh's not only equal fbh penetration but regularly exceed it, sh*t by that standard everyone should shoot mbh, trad included and not only at small game..... bring on the cape buffalo!

There is a saying, a man should know his limitations. in this case that should include the equipment he is using.

With that said I will be using a 2 inch wide 2 blade 125gn NAP Kilzone with a 67lb Bowtech Experience and a 587gn finished weight, 28 inch, 300 FMJ, high foc arrow at 230fps on the biggest baddest stinkiest Bull Elk I can find this September.

I shoot wide mechanicals for 2 reasons, for forgiveness under adverse conditions and a big A$$ hole!

230fps! You're pin gap is gonna be wider than Madonnas legs!

Oh and for you TTT

Mucho gracias senior! Actually I'd screw on a mbh if I could use it to kill this thread.

In the end, we should shoot what we have confidence in for the particular circumstance. I always try to let solid evidence form my choices because I don't like change for changes sake. So I don't change things quickly or easily which often puts me a few steps behind the trend.

Only one more week till bear hunting for me! Didn't think this thread last till then, but it might yet!

That's if Ohio doesn't send a big ole' expandable (halfway) through it's heart and kill it.

Oops, i guess you could read it that way but no it was a cow elk last September. However a mow cow ribs would be a heck of a lot heavier bone than elk. If they were legal to hunt i would use the same exact setup and get the same exact results on a moo cow as I did on my Elk cow no problem.

This argument is the equivalent of "Sir, I ordered a half dozen arrows, there are only 6 here." That's pretty much sums things up for me.

hey 12yds, if I called you 36ft would you still respond?

What Would Rowdy Dowdy Use.

This is for kitty cat if he is still lurking in this thread. You keep bringing up crappy past MBH designs but continually over look where the crappy compound bow came from. You also know we know you dont shoot mechanical heads with light equipment so why keep bringing up what you see on TV when you know darn well they are not doing it with the right equipment? Really, whats your point? Nobody shoots the old slow 4 wheel bows that first came out that I know of. We went from 180fps or less now up to 350fps and im pretty sure one day it will hit the 400 mark. Just like nobody shoots the pucket MBH and a few other crappy designs that came out years ago. MBH are evolving and getting better everyday. More folks are understanding how a mechanical BH works and what diligence needs with inspecting their equipment. Its not just simply screw it on and go hunting. But it doesn't take much time or discipline to be sure the head is doing as designed once that design is understood. It also takes understanding they should never be shot out of light equipment, each tool has its job. I use small fixed blade heads to kill small critters. Id never shoot a rabbit with my 2" mechanical if I want anything left of it. But elk, the bigger the head i can get a passthrough with the better and to get there for me it will be at a mechanical advantage. Again, I want a big A$$ hole! Your up Ohio! LMAO kidding!

There, i out a stick in it and stirred.

If I knew I could get a 2" bh to pass through an elk I'd shoot it too, but that 2" better not depend on a hinge. As it stands 1 1/4" will have to work.

If your statement is true (more folks understand...) then why are the hollywood hunters still leaving 3/4 of an arrow hanging out of animals and taking 50yd shots on elk hitting them in the guts and still leaving 3/4 an arrow hanging out? When are these dipshits gonna get the memo? I will disagree that people are more diligent, majority of hunters cannot tell you their arrow weight.

Damn you guys, put up some fresh threads to procure my boredom, this topic is deader than the kennedys. No one said the journey to 500 was easy.

IF they open ... and then if they open and use that energy, they also have a greater chance to bend/break because of the long thin blades

Ohio. I'm counting on you to stop it at 490, till I get back. We have ten black bear tags, plus two grizzly tags, so number 500 will be in a series of mechanical killed bear pics. HDYLMK! lol

Apparently they open enough and have enough energy left over to have a higher recovery rate than fixed heads.

Snowflake much?

How many now? My phone doesn't show a count.

Touching yourself? Snowflake? Buttercup? Not sure what you mean by these childish comments or labels, but I'm not any of that.

The author of the study had a very simple experimental design. He basically took compound bow hunters and divided them into mechanical users and fixed head users, collected deer recovery data and came to a conclusion. Very simple and clean scientific, peer-reviewed experiment. College was the best 10 years of my life where I got two degrees in Fisheries and Wildlife science. So I have a pretty good idea what good science is and isn't.

Fact is if you don't think it is a good study, it isn't based on whether it's a good study or not, you just don't like the results. In other words, you can't handle the truth. The simple truth is, out of a compound bow, on whitetail deer, mechanical heads are at least as good if not more effective in assuring the recovery of the animal.

Let me ask you this, if you shot at 100 animals with a fixed head and recovered 82 of them, and then shot at 100 more with a mechanical and recovered 89 of them, would you still think mechanicals were junk?

So I took the hunter data base (over 10000 daily reports) and tested two null hypotheses: (1) the choice of compound bow or crossbow did not affect the deer recovery rates; (2) the choice of fixed blade or mechanical blade did not affect deer recovery rates. I did not know how equipment choice would affect deer recovery rates, but as a deer tracker on Base, I started the data analysis with a negative bias against mechs.

(1) While crossbow users had averaged higher deer recovery rates than compound bow users, the difference was not statistically significant (p = ~0.10) and we could not reject the null hypothesis.

(2) We found that mechanical broadhead users had a statistically significant higher deer recovery rate than fixed blade users (p = ~0.001) and the null hypothesis was rejected. Broadhead choice did influence on whether a deer was recoverable or not. Now were hunters who used mechs more skilled archers? Were mech users taking closer shots? (Actually not, since mech users averaged taking 1 yd longer shots than fixed blade users; but this difference is not statistically significant). Were mech users more likely to tune their bows? Were mech users more likely to exert greater effort to recover their deer? Or perhaps the bigger hole with mechs allowed for better and/or shorter blood trails in spite of “reliability and penetration” issues, so that deer were more easily found. We do not have the data to know why mechs outperformed fixed blades relative to deer recovery; but the fact is that they did in a very controlled hunting environment. As I stated in my earlier post, the recovery statistics have been consistent over time. You are free to interpret the facts to fit your world view.

-fsh

36ft, I could give 2 squats what you shoot at thin skinned deer, but don't go hanging your hat on a BS study. Btw, I can't personally attack you, I do not personally know you.

As I said 200 posts ago...a rookie is much better off shooting a mech head.

Interesting study they did here in Ca; They did a "Gun study" trying to account for the gun buying frenzy in Ca of the last 8 years or so...and they attributed it to some of these mass shootings. UGH, excuse me....did you not realize that Obama was the best slaesman for the gun industry ever? When Hillary looked like a shoe in...the lines were out the door at gun shops....they didn't factor in the HUGE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS which have been driving guns sales....and now that Trump is in gun sales and ammo hoarding has dropped significantly....well what do you know.................................. study at link

Bottom line...there is not always a straight line cause/effect....Kudos to you FSH for realizing that.

"Let me ask you this, if you shot at 100 animals with a fixed head and recovered 82 of them, and then shot at 100 more with a mechanical and recovered 89 of them, would you still think mechanicals were junk?"

Mechanicals by and large are weak, they're fragile, they use a lot of extra energy needlessly and give zero advantages over a good fixed blade

might as well use plastic

When are the bear pics gonna show up?

That said....I've shot maybe 10 - 12 deer with Rages and watched all but one deer drop in sight. This one above was from a stand with a pass thru into the shoulder blade and out the opposite armpit. It's the best demo of a bone shot I have. I do not have any major issues with Rages. Years ago I did have one of my G5's break a blade once target shooting with it. I still like them though. The advantage I like with Rages is they help compensate for a less than ideal placement and give decent bloodtrails. My useless two cents....

Would have been a good candidate for Jonestown.

Switched because the theoretical disadvantage of energy consumption used on opening combined with learning to tune a bow better and all of the trash talk convinced me to switch. And I am not a speed junkie, mid 270s and that is good enough for Midwest hunting IMHO.

One fella will have a few fixed heads incase the rest of us get into trouble. lol.

Thanks killing the time with/for me.

Science also figured out the world was round, has made massive gains in medical treatment effectiveness, and improved things like carbon so it can be used now in bow's and arrows for our benefit. Nothing is correct 100% of the time... lucky for science, it doesnt have to be to further our knowledge and ability to create and grow as a species.

I'm just rooting for 1000 now. C'mon - we can do it!

Mech's are better than ANY FB ever created and silver flames are junk... That should get things going for a while longer :) (#sarcasm)

All four were shot with three blade mechanicals. I'm sad to say that the three Spitfire blood trails got blown away by the Grim Reaper bear. Ten yard run after a quartering away shot!!

The difference for us is that we can't/don't bait, so all shots are from the ground. Could have a significant effect. My bear was very, very steeply uphill and quartering away. Shot was low and back going in, high and forward on exit. Bear went almost one hundred yards. Three times as far as we normally experience.

Even tradmt admitted, on another thread, that even with only one blade open on a Spitfire, he recovered the animal! How devastating they must be, when two or even three blades are cutting!!!