Top Whitetail P&Y "Sleeper State"
Whitetail Deer
Just reviewing the P&Y Club 30th Recording and Statistical Summary booklet and only two states had more entries than Indiana entered in the last 2 years. Hope you Indiana guys won't get too upset at me for pointing this out:)
Wisconsin has always been the top and still is but Ohio has moved to number two.
Well that said, 48 states did worse than Indiana the last two years in P&Y entries. Looks like the buck on your trophy Photo's you got last year easily makes P&Y minimum. Can't be all that bad:). Nice 8 point!
They sure aren't plentiful by me. I hunt Indiana more than any other state. I have killed P&Y Whitetail qualifiers in every state that I have hunted except Indiana. In the past 25 years, I bet I could count all the PY I have seen on the hoof in Indiana on one hand.
does that include the Alabama point system? lol
Hello Charlie, It sounds like the P&Y gathering was another success! I am n the philippines at the present time as i have just return from vietnam on my brothers 50th yr anniversary of his death.during my stay here in philippines i ask some friends to take me around some mountian people here in northern mindinao. I told them i was looking to find a original bow and arrow that was used by these people to hunt with. after few weeks a contact of mind told me he found a tribal woman who`s late husband was the leader of there tribe and had passed away 7 yrs ago. she told him she married him when he was 15 and that he had that bow and arrows,and a vine carrying case .His father made if for him and gave it to him.the man died at age 57 ,so if thats true the little bow is around 42 yrs old plus or minus when ever the father made it for him. ive been in archery since i was 16 and now 63. 2 of my sons are also in archery since they were 5 yrs old.now back to this story,,, i met with a friend and he took me into the village of this settlement and the tribes name is Higaunon. If you were to pronounce the name is sounds like "hig a know non". I had to get a translater also so i could have him do the negotciation between me and the tribal woman and her son. the tribal lady son was some what educated in modern ways but he was still shy to deal with a american man.after about 45 minutes of talking and offering ,and having mountian tea,, i was able to get the tribal lady to agree on the price along with her son. money is very important to these people and is a luxury for them when they can get it and help them provide better for the children. i ended up also buying a bamboo finger drum made by a tribesman.After all was done and payment given and we ate some lechon ,i walked of the mountain with bow and arrow and a vine carrying case and the bamboo finger drum for 7,000 peso. the pseo is weak compare to U.S. dollar so at the time of my buying this from the the rate of exchange was 50 peso to one dollar.I ended up getting everything for $140.00 U S DOllars,which is very big money for these people. I am very fortunate to have aquired these items and plan on adding them to my trophy room. I know you been involved in archery and P&Y for many years so i thought you might appreciate this picture and this story. I dont know how to post more than one pic at a time here but i do have several. Charlie i am 12 hours ahead of you so it is 7:49 am tuesday morning here. hope you enjoy the pic with regards charlie/Pappy
Hoosiers are more prone to enter them not necessarily kill them.
I have hunted Indiana a few times but not in 4 years. I was on a buddies lease and saw several P&Y bucks. They lease 900 acres and kill at least 2 P&Y each year for the last 10 years. They have also taken several over 150"s with shotguns as well the last few years. I may go back this fall, NR license is a bargain. I would say another sleeper may be West Virginia in a few spots as well as Kentucky. Scooby
pappy just sent me a PM stating his post above was meant to be a pm to me which he accidentally posted on this thread. If he's OK with it I will leave his post because it is quite a unique story. Please read!
He goes to Vietnam to honor his fallen brother on the 50th anniversary of him being KIA in the Vietnam War. In transit on his way home while in the Phillipines he acquires that bow and arrows which is a treasure to him. Perhaps his brother helped enabled the transaction???
Pappy: You are a fine brother and I hope you know your brother is very proud of you! Thx for sending this. C
I 100% agree with Charlie!! Very Nice!! Scooby
I've heard the Rhode Islands have pockets of sleepers ......
I think the Bone Collector killed his first booner in Indiana.
I need to research the 150 and up entries and see how that math works.
Good food, mild weather, and decent genetics means we have
potential to be a sleeper state, not unlike most every farm state in the lower midwest. What we lack is a season structure that seeks to enhance the age distribution of the herd. At present we're moving in the opposite direction. We start this fall with all restrictions dropped on rifles, allowing any caliber of center fires throughout our 16-day November rut hunt. And it's a permanent change. We manage for opportunity, not so much for quality. I'd gladly give up my whole Indiana season every year to hunt Iowa!
I'm a Hoosier born and raised. Bowhunted whitetails since my teenage years....nearly 40 years total. Have also bowhunted whitetails in several other Midwestern states over the years....including Iowa last November. If I did not live in Indiana, this state would NOT be in my top 5 whitetail destinations. If I was stuck hunting public ground in Indiana, this state would likely NOT be in my top 10 whitetail destinations. I'll ditto what sticksender said....Indiana deer management is absolutely moving in the WRONG direction.
Thanks for the post Charlie. I love the statistics. Where can I get this info? I have found it in the past but it's usually old info. Thanks. -Charlie
No such place. There may be area's within a state that are "sleepers", but not the whole state.
Cool story pappy.
Do you guys feel that we (WI) lead in entries every year because we are more likely to enter ours in the book? Or, because we have so many hunters that it's inevitable we will kill more p&y bucks just simply because we kill such a high number of deer each year? I personally think that you could take our entries and add at least 15% and that would give you a more realistic # of how many p&y bucks we actually kill every year. Imho, we have by far the best hunting nation wide. We are killing giants every year in all different parts of the state.
My pick for #2&3 "sleeper states" would be Missouri and Kentucky.
Unfortunately states which have legalized crossbows during archery seasons will likely have fewer entries than in the past. Without knowing the number of hunters using P&Y approved bowhunting equipment, the various state entry numbers become largely irrelevant.
"Unfortunately states which have legalized crossbows during archery seasons will likely have fewer entries than in the past. "
Ohio blows that theory out of the water.
C.Beck: All attendees of the P&Y Convention get that booklet with the entire stats for the last two years. Some really cool information.
The 8th edition 2017 P&Y Club Record book will come with a CD and you can do all kinds of searches with that cd. Check the P&Y website as they will be for sale any day now. C
Shug everyone knows the deer in Oklahoma are like those in south Texas. Just because Embry and others post up pictures of nice looking deer doesn't mean they make p&y. Embry likes to long arm it and they usually weigh about 110#.
LINK is right, none of my deer make P&Y, I always exaggerate scores and I also like to sit at least 5 feet behind my deer and they usually don't break 105#. Stop pimping our state full of tiny deer, Mark!
Oklahoma is no sleeper - great state with great deer and hog hunting.
Indiana was a surprise but I would actually forget state and talk regions. Northern Idaho has some giant WT but you need access. Locals are just now realizing that WT are deer and are cool to hunt.
There are many areas like that to hunt.
Full draw, that is not true. I never stated that P&Y entries may not still increase, that however does not mean the entries are the same regardless of crossbow legalization and use. Also, I would guess there has been more than one hunter cheat the system, just sayin.
What I meant to imply is, in states like Wisconsin and Michigan where clearly the majority of archery season hunters now use crossbows it is only logical that fewer P&Y bucks MAY be harvested with P&Y approved equipment, as there are now fewer users. Wisconsin has a separate crossbow license so one can see the comparison. Still good information, just not as valid as the records once were.
Considerations before making the choice to spend time and money chasing whitetails in Indiana:
- Virtually unlimited deer tags (one buck limit on statewide tags)
- Full crossbow inclusion from October 1st through early January
- Sixteen days of firearm hunting in November (now includes rifles)
- Sixteen days of muzzleloader season in December (no primitive restrictions)
- Several counties also offer an antlerless firearms season during the Holidays.
- Harvest total on a multi-year downward spiral.
All that said, Indiana has potential *IF* you can find the right piece of private ground to hunt. If it were not for private deer management, we would not have deer management in this state.
For a variety of reasons, private land deer and game management has become key in many states.
I have some family in Indiana, yet it's definitely not on my top 5 out of state destinations. I could give a hoot about PY bragging rights, but their season structure is all effed up and without access to good private land, there's very little public land that has good potential for a nonresident.
It's kind of hard for a whole state to be a "sleeper" but I'd venture my home state and WV as a couple, and OH as most overrated. There are certainly some areas of PA and WV that have exponentially healthier deer herds and better trophy potential than they did 20 years ago. OH public land is absolutely hammered since it became the "it" destination in the 2000's.
The one buck rule is key to why Indiana is one of the top states the past few years. I know I personally have passed on opportunities to harvest 130" and 140" class deer not wanting to end my season in Indiana. In Illinois where I can shoot two bucks, there are times when I have taken those same class deer and then hunted for something bigger.
The other thing that is great about Indiana is that even though they have long gun seasons and long range options, you can archery hunt the whole season and the only orange you have to wear is a cap.
-Jeff
Time goes fast, it's been in effect since 2002. It is interesting that Ohio and Indiana have the one buck in common and are #2 and #3 after Wisconsin. -Jeff
I would disagree about Ohio being hammered by non-residents on public land. I have hunted Ohio 3 of the last 5 years and did very well on public land, you have to work hard to find the spots others ignore. I have been lucky and killed 1 P&Y in the 3 years I hunted there but I saw several P&Y bucks each year and killed another nice buck that was 3.5. I am going to try West Virginia this years and see what happens. Scooby
Scooby I hope that you have been warned about hunting in the WV "bow only" counties because the crime is terrible, especially when you have out of state tags. Do your research, that's all I'm saying.
JTV, put two years on the buck you killed and he would be a fantastic buck anywhere.Many ,many states can't say that.
I noticed that. Sleeper states... SD and MO. An individual can shoot thousands of deer in IL each year if they have access to them and the money for tags.
Last year, because I was bored one night, I went through the last P&Y record book, as well as one of the updates from 2013 I believe. I also went through my P&Y ethic magazines and looked at the listings.
I had several criteria. Entries had to be after the year 2000, because stuff changes. I only counted typicals over 160, and non-typicals over 180, because I was specifically interested in only BIG entries
I completely discounted B&C entries, because I was specifically interested in bow only, and some terrain lends itself more to bowhunting. So I didn't want the rifle kills to throw me off.
Many counties and states and provinces were represented in my research. Missouri and Kansas had some entries, but not as much as you'd think. Nebraska, SD, ND, CO, TX and others were represented.
I can't remember the numbers exactly. But the counties that popped up time and time again were all in 3 major states, which should be no surprise. . . . Iowa, Illinois and Wisconsin. Surprisingly to me, Iowa lagged behind the other two quite a bit. I suspect solely because of the limited tags for NR and the lower hunter numbers. . .
Two counties were CLEAR champions of the BIG bucks after 2000 research, and it might surprise you in what order they came. Fulton County Illinois was the clear and undisputed winner with the most entries in that time period, for those size bucks. Buffalo County Wisconsin lagged 3-5 entries behind if I remember correctly
When the new P&Y book comes out, I'd personally like to do some more in depth research, factoring in hunter numbers and different time periods.
I concocted the idea for this research one night while fantasizing about winning the lottery, and trying to determine in what state I'd buy the most land :) :). I wanted recent numbers of the most BIG animals. And believed that research could tell me what areas had the best opportunities for big bucks, given terrain, bowhuntability, etc.
Fun stuff
I am confused by people who downplay fact. I had prepared a major rant but chose not to post. If you bypass Ohio to go WV for big bucks then Godspeed and good luck! Public land is alive and well in many Midwestern states. I have killed 3 bucks in 6 years with an average score of 152. Buffalo county is fabulous but try finding a place to hunt is a whole other problem. Now go to Price, Rusk, Sawyer and it is another story. Yes, it is hard hunting but there is plenty of public ground. Certain counties and states dominate the record book and if possible these are places that you want to hunt. I have been tracking Indiana for the last couple of years but have not managed to make the trip. Now, I have added incentive based on statistics. Typically, public land will not ever equate the potential of managed private lands. That is the public land dilemma that we are confronted with when we plan an out of state hunt. I know a preacher in Alabama that has killed 10 P&Y bucks on public land in Illinois. If had chosen to stay home he would probably have zero.
In closing I saw 6 on public ground last year in a Midwestern state albeit this is much less than you would see on better private ground. One was a 130ish class and the other was 20 inch plus wide 160 class buck that my brother screwed the pooch on. I hunted for 40 years in marginal states without ever seeing a 160 class buck.
I'm always reminded how blessed I am when I read these threads. Killing a deer that makes P&Y minimum is practically "tag filler" material for most semi-serious bowhunters in Manitoba. I'm not saying it's chaff, but most guys set their goals much higher than P&Y minimum every year. And our hunting is worse than Saskatchewan and Alberta. We are truly lucky to have what we have in western Canada.
Apauls you are allowed to bait as well?? Makes a difference when you don't have a ton of hunters and can bait. Nothing wrong with it, just not for everyone. Scooby
Yeah, those pill head, welfare ridden, artist community's would have a ball with a guy from New York down there deer hunting. Watch yourself, your stuff, and do some homework. Most importantly, don't let anything you cherish out of your sight when you are down there Scooby. Some great people there for sure. But, there is higher than average concentration of not so good people. God Bless men
It's fun to contemplate what it takes for a State or an area to produce book trophy bucks. As someone wrote above, the numbers don't lie. All the places up on the list have superior genetics, and somehow manage to allow a decent number of bucks to reach their rack-bearing potential. Probably trending strongly towards well-managed private land in general, because it isn't like western states where you have multimillion-acre unbroken public habitat and there are areas where hunters just don't get regularly, if at all. Wisconsin amazes me. Everyone seems to go 'oh yea they're number one' and then starts to debate the kissing cousin also-ran states, but Wisconsin kicks booty when it comes to huge racks. Every year the trophy pix features true dagger gaggers from WI. Maybe it's cuz it's so close to Canada eh?
We're not allowed to bait, but Saskatchewan is.
The area I will be hunting has been fine in the past. I have not been in 15 years but I have friends who hunt it and they never have had a problem. Two of my buds killed 130" 3.5 year olds the last two years in only a week of hunting. I appreciate the concerns but I have faith in most people. Shawn
You are a big boy. You can take care of yourself I'm certain. This wasn't a scare tactic to keep you away. Just giving you a heads up. I live and work here. And, experience has taught me that there is NOTHING a PILL head won't do to get his next fix. NOTHING. Good luck and God Bless
As far as hunting in Indiana goes, I live in Indiana and hunt exclusivly on public ground. I have the luxury of being within 20 minutes of one of my spots as soon as I leave work but if I were someone trying to hunt this property from out of state it would be difficult to learn this area in just a week or two, if I were hunting for big bucks I think the odds would be slim at best. I also hunt Hoosier National Forrest. It took me 8 years of deer and turkey hunting to figure out a large tract of land. I'm not trying to scare anyone off by any means but it would be difficult at best to get a buck much bigger than 130" without hunting private ground, they're out there but learning a piece of property in 1 or 2 weeks probably won't cut it for a big buck. JMO. The deer have the food, some genetics and some places to hide when preassure stats to get heavy but as the elk hunters say "They're not behind every tree" a LOT of luck would be needed to kill a 160" or better on public ground.
Wow, how many of you guys live in the bow only counties in WV. I'm surprised that came from you Justin. I'm normally in agreement with you on most of your posts, but not on this one. I live here and have most all my life. It amazes me that we get labeled pill heads and thieves. We have bad seeds, as do all communities, but to warn people about coming here. That's ridiculous and irresponsible talk. I know a whole lot more, honest, hard working, God fearing people than "pill heads" by a long shot. Are we worse than the "meth heads" in rural Cabell Co. or the heroine addicts in the Charleston area. If you had a bad experience here I'm sorry for that, but don't throw out a blanket statement like that. I would guess that our crime rate is as low as anywhere else in WV. Come on down Scooby. We have thousands of "safe acres" to hunt.
Jeff
You need to read what I said. It isn't all bad. Some of the best people I've ever met in my life are from there. I married a women from there. I used to live there. I still do. Merger County is no different. The bad comes with the good. And pills are rampant. Problems associated with them are rampant. It's the same problems you find on other areas with high unemployment and low income entitlement. Don't take it personal because you live there. I do too.
Try running log jobs down here for a couple decades and you might understand what I am saying. They steal, burn, destroy, do whatever they can because they can. At rates much higher here than in other areas of this state. It's just the way it is. It doesn't change the fact that the hunting can be phenomenal. And, it's the best kept secret in the country. Its just the way it is.
WV Mountaineer, thanks (NOT) for slandering our state with your negative comments. Then to add "God bless"!
I agree we have a problem, but to say the drug epidemic here is any worse than "any-town USA" just isn't accurate. Here they steal a weedeater for a pill, whereas you get shot for a crack rock in an urban setting. What's the difference. Pick your poison. I just take offense to the thread going from sleeper state to so. WV pill heads. I've had 3 game cameras stolen in my 35 yrs of hunting these mountains and never once have I had a confrontation with anyone. Call me lucky I guess.
I'm with Dave Mitchell !! Wow, what Slander ! and No , God wasn't in that God Bless !! Ron Miller
I hail from WV and crime and drugs in the bow only counties is pandemic as in in much of rural Appalachia. I am supremely proud that WV is my home state but friends and relative tell me of the problems of the "pill heads" is real AND MUST be taken in account.
Lets get real and not try to mislead people coming to this great state when I know that a WV plate or Local is much less likely to be impacted than an unknown out of stater.
Sportoutfitter - Please see link on crime rate
As for the bow only counties being the best kept secret in America evidently you have not hunted much elsewhere. Good hunting does exist for the hardy and in the know people. A 135 does not excite me that much and if you are looking for a 150 plus deer you would be better served to look elsewhere unless you have plenty of time spend scouting and researching. As far as killing a P&Y Buck personally I would hunt top B&C locations. Often there you are frowned upon shooting a 130 class buck. The bottom line I need to go where there is a high percentage of bucks that meet the 125 minimum. Every year I turn down P&Y deer in Ohio and Kentucky if you want to kill a P&Y buck go where the statistics point you.
When I hunted in southern WV I experienced what WV Mountaineer and Pigsticker are talking about. All of the good people cautioned me about where I could leave my truck parked. It wasn't safe to park on back roads - which was where the hunting was of course. There was LOTS of broken glass in parking areas. That's a dead giveaway to breakins in my opinion. In many areas the abandoned homes outnumber the occupied homes.
The area was developed on coal mining and it went downhill when coal mining was cut back. Maybe with the Trump administration the area will get build back up. I'm not trying to scare anybody away, but I'm just telling it like it is.
I'm sure that Sportoutfitter is running a solid business and his area would be a great opportunity for those wanting to hunt in southern WV. I'm considering it this fall.
I'll take Logan Co (not where I'm from) over any big city, crime wise, regardless of the statistics. Big difference in petty crime vs violent crimes. Compare murder, rape, assault.
Elkstabber where do you live in VA?
I'm not a hunting outfitter. We'll have cabin rentals for atv riders, as well as canoe/kayak, horseback riding. I will hopefully rent to hunters and point them in the right, (safe) direction. But in no way is hunting my "bread & butter". This has nothing to do with me trying fool anybody because of my business. I love this place and will defend it every chance I get. I'm not stupid! I know we have a drug epidemic but it's the same as it is in most of of y'alls towns. Your exactly right pigsticker, let's NOT mislead people coming to my fine state.
MO is not a sleeper anymore. There's hardly room in the public parking lots and I think every state in the union was seen.
I agree with sportoutfitter, I'm not from those archery only counties but have many friends down there , most of the good ol boys down there would/ will give you the shirts off their backs !
a study several years ago published in North american whitetail, factoring in hunters per BC taken, came up with Nebraska as the winner for best ratio for big bucks...
How many people even bother to put them in the book these days? I doubt it's very many.
I for one never worry about "pill head" or anyone for that matter. I do ok. I would disagree about not being able to figure out a property even a large one in a couple weeks. Deer are deer they leave sign and if you can figure it out, you will do fine. I hunt 13 thousand acres in Kansas, it was not hard to figure out. I know Indiana is not Kansas but put some boots on the ground and hunt during the rut and good things can happen. Scooby
x2 Kodiak, especially P&Y. I only put one in the books and it was Buckmasters b/c I really liked the scorer and his enthusiasm.
"How many people even bother to put them in the book these days? I doubt it's very many he ." Statics probably bare a certain amount of truth. Every state has peeps t hat submit and others that do not.
Missouri?? Over 500,000 hunters plus multiple buck tags and a rifle season during the peak of the rut is not a recipe for a P&Y "sleeper state".
Pigsticker, that's what I asked up above in my earlier post. Do you think WI leads simply because we have more guys that enter theirs?
Maybe because we lead in entries more guys have the sense of pride by entering theirs to keep us at the top. The closest one I have is 108 and I'm not sure whether I'd enter one or not if I ever get one. I know if I made b&c I would enter that one.
Crusader, numbers of hunters and big bucks but what Wisconsin does with their deer management is nothing short of amazing. I think Wisconsin has lots going for in regard to habitat?. Lots agriculture and forest for good browse during winter. I think if it were broken down by the numbers Iowa or somewhere like Dave Kaden said Nebraska would by ratio may prevail as the lowest common denominator. I frequent a Midwestern area that every house has a 160 mount hanging up. Somewhere like that is where I want to hang my stand.
Elkmo, we in WI have a two buck season as well. Almost no one actually kills two bucks a year. Just on our state forum alone we have a lot of dedicated bowhunters and most of them gun hunt to. I can recall only One guy that got two bucks since I've been a member on here.
We also have a half million hunters but those numbers are very deceiving because a great majority of them are simply the one weekend warrior.
I think the chance of a public land p&y buck in Missouri is greater than that of wi. They have great genetics, plenty of food and cover, and milder winters than us.
I can't understand how the state wedged between Illinois, Ohio, and Kentucky would be considered a sleeper. :)
Southwest Indiana along the Ohio River. About the same as it is across in KY. Awesome. Ditto Northeast along the Ohio line. Big farms. Good genetics and until recent years, no rifles.
