QDM in northern states?
Whitetail Deer
Guys, I need your help. I have been assigned to write a piece on QDM for a hunting magazine in Eastern Canada and was asked IF there are any northern states that follow QDM practices. In short, most of the opposition we get here in Canada is that QDM does not work when snow contributes to deer mortality in a non-predictable manner (the effect is predictable - the year it will happen is not). If anyone has info, state biologists I could talk to, I would appreciate any help!
NY has a fairly strong QDM presence. Snow certainly contributes to deer mortality. Here is a link: https://www.qdma.com/new-york/ You may want to contact the regional director.
Serge, I hope all is well! Think about joining us on that Sika hunt this year.
Some parts of lower NY also have antler restrictions. I can't prove that it is helping, but I think it does decrease the killing of 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks, and that's always a good thing.
I found this in an article about QDM in Whitetail States (the rest of the article is at the link), they were referring to PA.
"Age structure
According to QDMA, fawns under 1.5 years of age accounted for 39 percent of the total antlerless harvest here (in PA).
Only Massachusetts and Wisconsin posted higher fawn percentages — 46 and 43 percent respectively.
That's among all 37 states.
As for our buck harvest, we're nowhere near the top for protecting yearling bucks — a principle tenet of QDMA.
The organization preaches letting young bucks walk in order to have a balanced age structure in the buck herd.
In Pennsylvania, bucks 1.5 years old accounted for 47 percent of the total 2013-14 buck harvest.
That's smack in the middle for the northeast region, with Vermont at the low end — 27 percent — and Delaware, Maine and Maryland tied for the top with 53 percent.
Among the 37 states, Arkansas posted the lowest kill of 1.5-year-old bucks at 8 percent. There, 67 percent of the total number of bucks shot were at least 3.5 years old.
Pennsylvania's 47 percent is a long way from the 73 percent number it posted in 2001, according to prior QDMA reports.
So we are shooting far less 1.5-year-olds than we used to.
But in recent years, that decline has leveled off. We've been hanging around the 50 percent mark for several years.
Across the 37 states that participate in the QDMA report, 1.5-year-old bucks made up 36 percent of the 2013-14 harvest.
That's a record low, according to QDMA."
By the way, 2 biologists you may want to speak with at the QDMA are Kip Adams and Matt Ross, both very knowledgeable and very approachable.
Very little winter mortality in SE MN though. I would say that if you have winterkill on an annual basis it probably is a waste of time. If you get a couple winterkill events a decade, I would still think you could see benefits. I think most of northern MN with the exception of the arrowhead region north of Lake Superior would see benefits from QDM.
It's hard for me to imagine any downside to having a healthier herd. As you well know Serge, QDM strives for a balanced age structure, sex ratio and populations in line with what the habitat can handle. Everyone, even the "Meat hunters" likes to see big bucks. In my experience, many/most experienced hunters are willing to be at least somewhat disciplined about what they shoot, as long as there is a reasonable opportunity for success.
There are always the guys out there who have an almost allergic reaction to being told what they can shoot. If a simple explanation of what QDM is trying to accomplish doesn't convince them, I'd just ignore them, work with the people who will be reasonable and practical, and over time, as the average age of harvested bucks goes up (and along with it antler size) some of those guys will change their tune when everyone else is bringing in (or at least seeing) mature bucks and they are shooting yearlings. Their egos can't take shooting the smallest deer in camp.
Among the naysayers, the biggest complaint I always hear is: "If I don't shoot it (that yearling or 2 year old basket rack 8) somebody else will". I usually tell them, they are shooting the dumbest deer in the woods (I don't usually earn any points for subtlety). When I started showing trail cam pics to the naysayers, some of them started becoming more patient. But there are always a few who just HAVE to kill something every year, even if it's a yearling, I say the hell with those guys, as long as you have limited buck tags, at least they tag out early and you get them out of the woods. Then the rest of us can spend some quality time in the field looking for a mature deer.
If you are not familiar with the Dr Gary Alt story in PA, you should look it up. He is the Biologist who did a great job with the Bear population in PA. After years of trying, they finally convinced him to take on the deer herd, (against his will). He imposed antler restrictions, and (as Pat said) increased doe tags to bring the population down, and age structure more in line with what is natural. (All these things were badly needed IMO) The habitat improved and the big deer returned. He received many death threats and was probably the most hated man in the state for quite a while. He was absolutely correct, but I doubt he thinks it was worth it. I think he retired and moved out of state (out west if I recall). Just be careful Serge, we don't want you becoming the most hated man in Quebec over this.
We have had AR here for several years, and I can guarantee that it works. We still have guys that hate it, but I think most hunters approve. Now, if the state would put spikes off limits !
There is 20 QDM properties within 1 hour of me in NS. Lots of people practicing QDM in NS and NB. NB has 2 chapters of QDMA. Lots of food plotter and seed and mineral suppliers here. Some guys planting 2-3 acres and others over 20 acres just for wildlife. Talked with a guy yesterday that is looking to plant couple hundred acres with a forest project for wildlife in NB. QDM practices have been here for 20 years. Deer and other wildlife are benefiting as well.
ok guys - thanks for the pointers - will dig deeper for New York for sure.
Ace - send me the dates for your Sika trip this year - you never know!
Trapping usually ties me up in November, but hey, you never know!
I hunt in northern Michigan where there are 12 counties that started APR in 2013. I have hunted there since 1996 and all you saw for years was spikes, 3 and 4 point bucks. The law is 2 bucks , one has to have 3 points on one side and the other has to have 4 on one side. Summer before last I got 3 10 pointers on trail cam. Last fall I got one of those 10 pointers. Much larger as he was 22 inches wide on inside. Longest time was 11 1/2 inches. At the butcher shop I regularly see shooter bucks. Nothing like the past years . I believe without a doubt it works. I have food plots on my 50 acres and I get pics all summer of them using my plots. Spent a wad of money improving my sandy soil. Food plots are fun for me along with the hunting .
Where I live the "deer" population is healthy. They are not endangered. I do not get this antlers before meat philosophy. Antlers are irrelevant to me. I can see where this would be controversial. Also, there are a good number of aboringinal hunters here that these restrictions would not apply to.
Pat I agree with your statement fully. Said well. I think that's the hardest part of the AR Idea - people freak at the prospect of not shooting the first deer they see for a few years... But 2-5 years later it just makes sense that it would be a big positive.
I love our AR.. Here in Pa many of guys that were against AR in the beginning. These were the guys that if it's brown it's down. After 3 or 4 years these same guy started to see how Ar was working. Now many of these guy pass up smaller, but legal bucks (3 point on a side) hoping to get a much bigger buck and there's a lot that do pass up legal bucks now. It took sometime, but it's working real well here in Pa. Before AR rarely did anyone pass on a 100 class deer..
As a deer get to be 2.5 years old, 1, it has a much better chance of making it through a harder winter and 2, they start to get smarter and a little harder to hunt. :)... Now I think many wish it was 4 points a side instead of 3.
Back when Ar started so did QDM in my part of the state which is the Northeast part. I think that hunting in my part of the state is the best it's ever been.
Everyone has differing opinions regarding to what extent QDMA practices help a deer herd, specifically quality of the bucks. One thing is certain however, if you shoot too many yearling bucks you will have very few mature bucks down the road.
QDM and AR help deer reach their genetic potential. If all you want is some tender meat, the younger the better, although the big boys also put on a lot of pounds to go with the racks. If you don't mind chewing a little more, there's more to chew, to go along with the mount on the wall. I'd be curious if someone started a thread - "young and tender vs size" what the percentage of trophy hunters on this site would be. Guessing 80%. Might be a higher actual percentage of vittles hunters than that, but it's kind of like admitting you voted for Trump.
In no way shape or form do I believed the more tender meat theory. I have never had a tough deer and our family doesn't buy meat from a store. We rely on venison. I have taken probably a hundred deer in my life.
Assuming there are tough deer, a cuber takes care of that.
If Wisconsin would get rid of group buck hunting during rifle season,we would not need QDM.
I think it depends on the area. I hunt in an area with very low deer numbers and very low hunter numbers. I see no reason for QDM and/or APR's in these areas.
keith,, In the area you hunt are their doe tags?
Turkeyhunter,, The guy your talking about doing the couple hundred acres, his name be Tom?
X2 on party hunting. MN allows it. I hate it! Coupled with the, "if it's brown it's down" philosophy, it's tough for a buck to see year two. It should be tag your own deer and then you're done hunting, imo. That would go a long way toward letting young bucks walk.
New Jersey has some zones that have been deemed "QDM" with a 3 point minimum. If you speak to the leader of the deer management program she can tell you if it's done any good
"people freak at the prospect of not shooting the first deer they see for a few years... But 2-5 years later it just makes sense that it would be a big positive. "
I have talked to guys who hunt the APR, also work with folks who volunteer to not shoot the spikes, forkies etc. in special hunt areas
Haven't seen much of a significant change in buck age structure in passing up small deer and waiting for them to grow. The cars get them, the wolves get them, weather and disease gets them.
The APR area in MN is close to the CWD control zone will have to see how that changes things next few years.
I wouldn't pass on the huge 6 point in the pic with a bow would you??? It would take a pretty dumb law to make it illegal to harvest because it wasn't 4 pts on a side..
Teeton: No doe tags in this area, not even with bow.
"I wouldn't pass on the huge 6 point in the pic with a bow would you??? It would take a pretty dumb law to make it illegal to harvest because it wasn't 4 pts on a side."
There is no "one size fits all" law that is perfect, whether you are talking about number of points, antler spread, or gross score. I think you can forget trying to age deer in the field as most hunters are not very good at this. Is the alternative to do nothing and have a deer herd that is out of balance with regards to age?
The goal is to get a better balanced age structure. Antler point restrictions or minimum spread are attempts to do that.
In areas where people pass on 1.5 year old bucks good things start to happen. If you can't tell the difference between a 1.5 year old buck and a mature buck by looking at it, then you're not really paying attention. Unfortunately since aging deer on the hoof is tough, Game Departments usually go with antler restrictions which can sometimes result in the best bucks (by antler size and potential) being shot young because they "qualify" as a legal deer when they are still naive.
QDMA has an "Age This" section of their website that has pictures of bucks every month. You can vote for how old you think the deer is, and the next month they tell you what their biologists think. Aging deer on the hoof isn't an exact science, but a 1.5 year old buck looks like a Doe with antlers and is pretty easy to tell from an older deer.
I have heard all the arguments against antler restrictions and QDM, and frankly I think it comes down to hunters either being selfish, or not being very confident that they can shoot something other than the easiest buck in the woods.
Here is the 2012 PA Hunter Survey if no one has seen it yet. The hunters still support APR's but their responses suggest something different.
Here is the 2014 PA Hunter Survey. Similar views from the PA respondents. The PGC was a little sneaky with one of the APR questions in this survey compared to the one above published in 2012. Keep in mind PA has a mature APR program too and the respondents are from across the state.
"I think it comes down to hunters either being selfish, or not being very confident that they can shoot something other than the easiest buck in the woods.." -yeah like dictating by law instead of education or voluntary participation what deer a person can or cannot shoot.
"Its all about opportunity"-yeah heard that one too. Sorry for the guys who want bigger, Bigger, BIGGER antlers every year can't "regulate" a big buck for you. That comes from practice, huntsmanship and good archery.
How about the opportunity to drop that matriarch doe you have seen the last 10 years when she finally gives you a good angle at close range???
Up North there are three other big factors beside hunters, windshields, winter and wolves... none of which implement QDMA. Fourth one that is currently up for debate is DNR and its controversy over current deer mgt. plan.-Most allege they are NOT listening to hunter input.
Antler envy is getting so bad our state had to pass a law that give the person who hit the buck with a car first dibs on the carcass and antlers.
Some confuse QDM with managing for big racks.
Some use QDM to push for bigger racks in their trophy room and ego building...
Do not confuse QDM with trophy deer management. QDM is simple to understand if you want to understand it. It is simply, managing the deer herd in such a manner as to promote, produce and protect the following: (1) Total herd numbers well within carrying capacity for the habitat. (2) Distribute age ratios more or less, evenly, i.e. 18-months and under, 18-months to 30-months and 30-months and over and this for the entire population. (3) Distribute sex ratios more or less evenly. That is the basis. Then, on a broader scale, improve nutrition and habitat. No matter what is said or written. That is QDM. You cannot impact genetics. You have what you have. But you can improve the overall health of what you have. There is no culling of "inferior" bucks in QDM...or at least, there shouldn't be.
Now...that said. I have no idea how snow impacts that plan. That is above my pay grade. I can see how it could create a problem in some years. But, QDM does not always involve reducing total herd populations.
I have a few friends that hunt Greene county in NY, antler restrictions have been in place a few years at least. This past season they saw results. This is a rifle county and lots of young 1.5-2.5 year old bucks killed every year. Now they are killing some nice 4.5 and even 5.5 year old bucks. Some guys still complain but most are happy about the AR's now. We also have had two mild winters in a row, so this coming season may be very good. Scooby
Wolves party hunt and they don't practice QDM.
"There is no culling of "inferior" bucks in QDM...or at least, there shouldn't be. Now...that said. I have no idea how snow impacts that plan."
So why comment on Northern states if you don't know the impact??
I came from an era where there was no season in the early 70s to huge bonus tag distribution in the 1990s-2000s to the current level of antler envy, head hog mentality of folks pretending to practice QDM as mentioned above. We had bad winters in some of those years too. Also speed limits changed and new roads constructed through prime deer habitat.
Think of it this way , as long as humans have been hunting wild game, its been common practice to take the best opportunity and capitalize on it if you want meat, fur, and more recently antlers, etc. to mount. What deer in the herd structure provide that best opportunity?- the young inexperienced deer.
Hunters individually or as a group can desire to limit their opportunity to focus on older deer, but that is smaller percentage of hunters than the average meat hunter or "if its brown its down" derogatory term used. So with a mix of proper education, management strategies from experience and a few laws its should work for everyone to be happy right? No, not really because there always has been and likely always will be less older adult deer due to winter, windshields and wolves. As they age, contact diseases, teeth wear out, and die by repeatedly crossing the road over time they are replaced by the new age class of animal ( 2-4 fawns each year). In my state we have abundant public land to hunt-lucky us. Not everyone has a need or desire for the mature adult animal, and want to continue with the easy opportunity to fill a tag and freezer. Will they take a mature animal if given the opportunity? yep. Take a younger deer if given that opportunity , probably. So what is the definition of a success or trophy? Its defined by culture which doesn't follow a technical "wildlife management" or DNR administrative track. The cultural norm isn't one size fits all. Reports of harvesting a few bigger deer after a legally imposed culture change is mostly anecdotal, no different than using one sided testimonial, cherry picked for so called new age health treatments instead of something studied with the scientific method of cause and effect-all casual relationships considered. For example especially when the winter is mild and confounds the culture change in the same study period.
I am willing to bet reducing traffic on a particular highway or reducing speeds on roads running through prime whitetail habitat could save some adult animals too. If it coincided with a harvest law change folks would point and say: "see, see the rule change gave the desired result!" but not taking into account the confounder.
Lots of items to think about in the off season as turkey hunting is winding down...
I live in the south we have long seasons and healthy bag limits, no wolves or winter kill to speak of these are all factors that contribute to population modeling. I'm Probably going to raise some hackles with this but I was a strong proponent of QDM since the late 90's before it had a name. These last few years I'm growing to despise it for a couple of reasons. The biggest is that as a direct result of some with big egos they feel the need to change the regulations every year and we are loosing harvest opportunity in the form of reduced bag limits. I have no problem with self imposed restrictions! but I really don't think the regulations need to be adjusted because folks don't like what the neighbors are doing on their property. Most folks here have the unrealistic notion we will have booner's behind every tree if we cut the limit to one buck. It used to be 3 these are unrealistic expectations. There have been improvements in quality over the years but it is through self imposed restriction not government regulation. But soil fertility, habitat quality, forest management are still your limiting factors. Before you jump in with genetics remember half the antler genetics come from the doe! Which one of them you going to shoot and why? some parts of the state we can legally shoot 200+ does a season any guess what happens to the breeding capacity of your heard when you do this? granted the novelty runs out quick but in the mean time you've really damaged breeding capacity. Since folks don't see a lot of big bucks they figure we need more harvest restrictions... I think I'm done with the vicious cycle! but have fun and shoot what makes you happy!
"""There is no culling of "inferior" bucks in QDM...or at least, there shouldn't be. Now...that said. I have no idea how snow impacts that plan." So why comment on Northern states if you don't know the impact??""
I'll answer that. I comment because I have been managing deer for well over a quarter century and fully understand what QDM is and is not. IT IS NOT ABOUT PRODUCING BUCKS WITH LARGER ANTLERS. When that is taken into the equation, it is no longer QDM. SOME antler restrictions are beneficial in age strata management. MOST ARE NOT. Most that are imposed in state-wide management are detrimental over a long period of time. Therefore, no matter where you are considering QDM, be sure you understand what it is and is not. For example, simply reducing herd population and imposing a three-point AR is not even close to being QDM. It is simply a dose of Pablum for the hunters.
"I have no problem with self imposed restrictions! but I really don't think the regulations need to be adjusted because folks don't like what the neighbors are doing on their property."
Why does deer management have to be dumbed down to those who practice "if it is brown, it is down?" If the majority of deer hunters in your area want a better quality deer herd, what is wrong with that? Is this really that different from size restrictions on certain game fish that we all tend to accept?
Ollie, you make a great point. The key word in your logic is, "MAJORITY". You see to manage a deer herd, involving a change in current policy, only two factors should be considered: (1) Is that change biologically needed? (2) Does it meet with the approval of the MAJORITY of hunters. If the answer to those two questions is yes, then, make the change. In the same vein, if the answer to to the first one is no, then, why do it. If whatever is proposed, will have no negative impact and the MAJORITY of hunters want it, then why not do it? Now here comes the rub. Without a good, non-biased survey, how do you know what the majority want? In one state that I know of, a very vocal and influential group of hunters wanted some changes made. They hoped their state would start producing Mid-West type antlers. However, that was not what the MAJORITY of hunters wanted nor was it biologically sound. Keep this in mind. The majority of hunters are gun hunters and the majority of all hunters do not judge a quality animal by his antlers. "If it is brown it's down", is not always poor deer management. It is just not what some hunters want.4 Now, we can take that one step further. If certain restrictions are implemented, yes, bucks with larger antlers will be more numerous, simply because we have more older bucks. That does not mean their antlers will be any larger. Genetics dictates that, not deer management. And when you start out with larger antlers as your goal, you have left QDM behind. But you have also alienated the majority of deer hunters and that leads to increased poaching, usually in the form of non-reporting. That is why for the most part, managing for big racks should always be the job of private land managers or on controlled management areas. (Obviously, I could write and entire chapter on this :) )
I do not see where a hunter shooting every single 1.5 year old buck they see for their entire hunting career screams management or conservation. The brown, it's down mentality lends itself to bucks only, that's why many states are not meeting yearly doe harvest requirements.
Learning lots - and thanks to all for the info by pm...
Frenchman,
I'm curious as to what you learned from this thread as to how QDM could apply in your area, and just what area are you talking about?
Generally Provincial game managers already practice QDM through limiting of tags or varying season length. This version of "QDM" is simply a product of managing human caused mortality towards influencing a desired sex ratio and age class of males. Typically habitat manipulation for increased deer populations is not part of a government's effort in manage the herds.
Excellent point, Buffalo.
Frenchman, contact Rob Argue from QDMA. Rob is the Operations and Outreach Coordinator for Canada. Also, reach out to Kip Adams and Matt Ross from QDMA they can also help you out or lead you in the right direction. www.qdma.com attached, go to "About" then "Staff and Leadership" for contact info for all three.
At the QDMA National Convention last year I ran into a group of QDMAers from Canada. If I remember correctly there group was practicing QDM on their property and also on a public piece of ground. I think they were from Ontario. Ask Rob about them.
This thread has jumped around some, I would like to say this. If you aren't familiar with QDMA or QDM go to www.qdma.com and find out what it is and what it isn't. Or, reread John Sloan's (Bowriter) postings above. John really nailed it. Thanks John! Yes, by all means, please write an article about QDMA and QDM and let's get it into an upcoming issue of "Quality Whitetails" magazine.
BC
Right on, Bow Crazy. If followers of this post take nothing away from this thread but one thing, I would like them to understand, QDM has nothing to do with antlers, either in antler restrictions or antler size. Antlers have nothing to do with the quality of deer population. They are a side-product of good management, not a tool or guide by which to manage that population.
BTW- As a bit of an aside, I have a friend in Manitoba who has been managing his herd on about 1,200 acres, for close to 20-years. His program was going great until a severe winter got almost 50% of his entire population. So, keep in mind, sometimes, adjustments have to be made quickly.
Aside from antler being used to measure a population and age structure would like to know how many are extracting jaw bones to determine age and overall health??? I have been on some hunts in the So USA where the outfitter pulled every one of them. How about bone marrow?
