broadhead sharpness after bone contact?
Equipment
A lot of people make a big deal about broadhead sharpness. Don't get me wrong. I know it is important. I'm actually working on learning how to put a razors edge on broadhead right now and I'm purchasing the KME system to use on my Magnus Stingers. There's something I have been wondering about though. Let's say we have two hunters, Hunter A and Hunter B. Hunter A is hunting with a ho hum, straight out of the pack level of sharpness broadhead; Hunter B is a fanatical sharpener and won't hunt with anything he won't put his finishing touches on, and it must easily shave hair. The season comes and Hunter A shoots a deer and as luck would have it he shoots a deer and slips one right between the ribs so the broadhead must pass through nothing but hide and a little tiny bit of rib meat. Hunter B with his wicked sharp broadheads center punches a rib on his way in. Does he still have that scary sharp edge when it reaches the vitals or after passing through that rib bone is that sharp edge toast? Who ended up passing a sharper broadhead through the vitals?
I have a Slick Trick buried up in the neck bone of a KS whitetail and the tip sticking through .... and you can cut yourself with it still its so sharp
Lose some sharpness yes, but most bones are not rock hard, they can be cut
I once buried a VPA in the spine. No bent or nicked blades, still sharp and spun true.
Microscopically yes he has lost some of his edge or all of it, but in the overall grand scheme of things it may amount to little or nothing lost. If you're flying through ribs and coming out the otherside both deer are dead anyways and.. well dead is dead. Mission accomplished little need for an autopsy. I assure you a lot of deer have been killed with far less than razor sharp bh.
This season about half way through if your buddy hasn't warranted replacing his lead arrow grab it and see how sharp it isn't after in and out of the quiver a dozen+ times.
Anyone's guess, either way it's a dead deer.
There was a recent thread about why some are average hunters while others are better than average. IMO, if you settle for "good enough", chances are you'll be an average hunter at best. If you set a higher standard and leave nothing to chance, odds are you'll be better than average. Doesn't matter whether you're talking about BH sharpness, or anything else hunting related.
Why would you want to even consider compromising the sharpness of your BH? Especially when it is your control to sharpen it and keep it sharp.
You never know if you are going to hit that rib or not when you shoot. I want my heads as sharp as I can make them. It only takes a few minutes and can be done while watching a football game. Like WY said, things like this are the difference between good and "good enough".
Any use starts dulling them, but the sharper it starts, the sharper it stays all else being equal. In my opinion, sharpening broadheads and knives is an essential skill for a hunter. Doesn't mean everyone has to be an expert, but everyone should probably be striving to be competent. You can kill stuff and skin stuff with out of the package heads and Havalon knives and get around it, but edges are just a part of hunting and being outdoors. Sort of like starting a fire or basic navigating.
I touch my heads up during season. Going in and out of a foam quiver or just time exposed to elements starts to degrade the edge.
a good head shouldn't dull on a rib
"Sharp" is subjective. There are many "kinds" of sharp. A jagged "wire edge" as left by a file on a "softer" blade is likely the worst WRT durability. That edge feels extremely sharp as it has a tendency to snag, catch and cut flesh, fingers included. But any impact with something solid and that edge rolls very easily. A finely honed and polished edge is more durable to any impact.
Edge angles matter as well, the higher angle like many put on three blade heads like a snuffer is more durable to impact than a lower angle "thin" edge, but is less "sharp".
Blade angles matter too. A high chopping blade angle hitting something is going to have more issues than a long low angle (3:1 commonly referred to) that slices.
Metallurgy. Too soft and the edge deforms easier. Too hard and the blade is brittle and can break.
A lot of factors and a lot of heads to look at and choose from. All have advantages and disadvantages. Compromises.
My experience is that you don't foul up all the blades. So I want as sharp of a head that will maintain it's sharpness with the steel that it is made from. All steel is not created equal and and I think that you would splitting hairs if you used a working knife edge concept on a broadhead. I love the Shuttle Ts for sharpness but don't think that edge would work on a vented blade like a slick ?trick. Both are razor sharp!
The broadhead is the first and most important part of your bowhunting gear that actually makes contact with the deer. You have a lot of $$$$$'s tied up in that moment and it may be the only "moment" you may have that season, so WHY chintz on sharpening that edge???
Too sharp can be very bad. To be real sharp edge is real thin. Real thin dulls real fast and deform. Thats why butchers use a steel and never use shaving sharp k ives. Deburred round is what u want.
I use a file and then a steel and they will shave. Not a polished edge, but sharper than most heads you buy out of the box. As was mentioned blade angle is just as important as sharpness. I shoot 3 blade COCs so the angle is easy to do. The last deer I killed the head did get stopped by a bone......the leg bone on the far side of the deer after it went clean through the ribs and chest! Another 50 yard tracking job, I do love those!
Steeper blade angle! This is where one piece heads have an edge over replaceable blades.
Broadheads kill by hemmorrage. That means massive blood loss due to bleeding, meaning you want to cut cleanly everything in it's path.
Turn your scenario around. Hunter A shoots his sort of sharp head into a rib, comes out the other side very dull. If it is in the lungs it will probably still kill, but the blood trail may be long and difficult. Hunter B is going to have a very short blood trail.
When you skin/de-bone a deer with a very sharp knife, the first cuts are easy, but as you go along the edge begins to dull and the cuts are not quite as easy. That is why you want a broadhead super sharp to begin with, so even if it hits bone or mud on the hide it is still sharp, although not quite as sharp as it started, to get the job done, which is to cause massive blood loss.
My experience is in no way scientific but i have shot coc broad heads that must be sharpened to meet my standards for 25+ years. This covers Rothhar snuffer, muzzy phantoms, steel force, and my new favorite VPA razors and if we are talking deer sized game i don't worry much about bones. They shear through rib, leg and scapula's very efficiently and are still dangerously sharp. Now if you step up to an elk sized critter it is a matter of the mass and volume of a bone VS. kinetic energy/ momentum that becomes an issue. Bottom line is I take sharpness of my broad heads serious including touching them up after repeated quiver in's and outs. Bones are just an unavoidable part of bowhunting. I would focus on creating a setup that will perform exceptionally under the worst case scenario and strive for choosing high percentage shots.
Every Muzzy I've shot at an animal has come out looking like it was ramrodded through gravel like you were packing powder into a flint lock. They still passed through and I think that's a product of the force behind the arrow, but I believe the razorblade replaceable heads lose something as soon as they contact hide and then that first rib.
My last 7 animals I've killed with VPAs and I've been amazed at how sharp they are after passing through an animal. I've told the story before on Bowsite about the whitetail I shot where the arrow went through two ribs and out the armpit, then through the leg, breaking the humerus in 1/2 for a total of 3 bones broken, hide passed through 4 times, passed through, and then stuck in the ground. (This is out of a 52 lb bow). And that BH was still sharp after I pulled it from the ground.
My coues deer this past January I shot down on and it completely severed the spine in 1/2. I could actually grab both sides of the spine and move them back and forth. And the BH stuck in the ground after going through a rib under the animal. And the BH was still sharp after sticking in the dirt. I can't believe that the harder steel and the lessor angle aren't the way to go. I'll never use a razor blade broadhead again.
The quality of steel makes a difference, same as good knives. I use 2 knives, havalon and s30v steel. A broad head I haven't heard about in awhile here is Solids. They are s30v steel.
Vpa's are tool steel (I think) which is higher grade than your typical cheap stainless replacement blade steel. Edge angle is also a factor.
Ironbow, your scenarios work with poor quality blades. My heads are shaving sharp after punching ribs on both sides, my knife is shaving sharp after skinning and quartering. Good steel, well sharpened.
Fuzzy,
I agree. I was replying to the OP's scenario. Which is what many broadheads and knives are.
Take care when knife steel is used for broadheads. A knife has a much larger section to it than any broadhead and isn't subjected to the impacts broadheads are. I tested a head once I had great hopes for that touted using a high end knife steel. It was the sharpest head out of the box I've ever used and after going though a couple deer you couldn't tell it from the other new heads. Hit a buck squared up on a front leg and watched the arrow literally bounce off. The broadhead shattered into pieces. Hard steel makes for a good edge. But far too brittle for impacts on much that is solid. Learned my lesson and will never complain about a bent blade again. At least it didn't blow up.
Subconsciously I suspected something like this happening to a Solid after a pass through on a rock, but not on bone... s30v is brittle, but that was least of my concerns b/c I'd never shell out that kind of cash for bh.
What kind of steel did they use?
Not really up on knife steels, there are a bunch of em.... looking at the Hunor site it was Bohler M390. I do know sometimes it's not the steel but what is done in tempering too. An entirely different art, craft, and science that I know just enough of to know i don't know enough.....
I've seen every episode of forged in fire, I'm pretty much an expert.
Yes, lots of steels out there and I've never heard of m390 and yes the heat treatment will change the metal's malleability.
Everybodies favorite BH that I pulled out of the elk I shot in 2012 or 2013...never touched the ground.
I've posted my opinions many times...most recently on Wapititalk in the gear section.....yes, BH design matters!
"Who ended up passing a sharper broadhead through the vitals?"
Doesn't matter. When it comes to something like a rib, especially, you really can't control what you hit; only what you hit them with. Think through the original scenario again, assuming that they were using the same head but with 2 different levels of sharpness. Which hunter will have the better lifetime average?
FWIW...
I just checked three "used" broadheads that I have lying around; not one of them would I hunt with.
But I did get them all back, didn't I?
The answer to your question depends on the type of steel being used and the heat treat process. Most broadhead blades are made of 420 SS with a hardness around 48-50 HRC. A rib bone is typically enough to flatten this edge or bend it over. A few broadheads (German Kinetics, Solid, Iron Will) use premium blade steels with a higher hardness for better edge retention. A much sharper edge can also be achieved with a higher hardenss. I have shot an Iron Will broadhead through an elk shoulder blade and could still shave hair with it. It uses A2 steel at 58-60 HRC, cryogenically treated and triple tempered to increase toughness while maintaining high hardness. For full disclosure, I engineer the Iron Will broadheads.
