I'd like some specifics on what you learned about a buck you were hunting, or killed. Do something different? Spot him in an area on camera? Pattern by sighting? Right place right time? Did you know his general "home range", before rut?
Where my wife and I hunt there's one buck that has been schooling us but I think I've narrowed his home range. Granted, that's if he's still alive this fall. He's been caught on camera during late velvet stages on multiple occasions. My wife had a run in with him this past season in mid November and I had a close call with him in late December of 15'. The only things he's done that's pattern-able would be that he is on us in the summer months (camera) and leaves (maybe) in October. He then comes back late when the rut is over and the bucks bachelor back up, according to one sighting and two camera pics . His primary travels are from the South (according to the two sightings and three camera pics) which makes me think he resides on the adjacent property to the South or in the very thick forage on the South edges of our property. These old bucks make me lose sleep and I love talking about them, as you can see. :)
Let's talk...
Don't make it the center of your life, hunt when you can and your mind is free, enjoy every hunt like it was your last, right place right time, shoot trad you will always see them at 50, and read every post Genesis puts on bowsite!! GL
I normally don't hunt opening day, too hot for this sissy scent freak, and I don't move into my hot spots until I either get a cold snap or I know the rut is starting to pick up. If you have decent cover and a little rut action they throw caution into the wind, granted if they haven't already been bumped out of their core by pressure. I'm not a camera guy, I'll put one out usually later in the season just for fun but otherwise they have the tendency of invoking regular visits to the camera or bait pile stinking up the place, I do neither. Now these new cameras that send you the pictures are pretty slick and a game changer IMO.
Steve (Genesis), you're up.... :)
2014: Had him on his summer pattern. Knew exactly when he was coming through in the last several days. Shot him 3 minutes before legal light was over. He was in the same spot the previous 3 nights at the exact same time. 2015: 1 buck I was hunting. Had never seen him in daylight. I only hunted optimum days. Iffy wind? Didn't hunt. Iffy temps? Didn't hunt. The very first cold front we had come through that year was November 6th & 7th. First time in the low 30's. The morning of the 7th I did some rattling. 20 minutes later and he just showed up out of nowhere. Was it the rattling? Maybe. Was it the cold front? Maybe. Both? Maybe. I do feel confident in saying that if I had over hunted that spot in the almost 2 months before then, I don't think I kill him. And the way my hunting spot is set up, I have to over hunt a set up. I'll hunt it a couple dozen times a year if I can. But I don't hunt if something is wrong. 2016: Hadn't seen any mature bucks all summer or fall. Not one. So I just hunted and put my time in. Day before thanksgiving had a 4.5 year old come out on the neighbor's property. Grunted at him and he came in. Had to grunt a couple more times to get him all the way in. Shot him at 8 yards from my blind.
All that is pretty basic knowledge. Everyone knows these things. For me, the hard part was actually practicing these things. Its one thing to say: "Don't hunt marginal winds!" Its another to actual do that when you haven't spent much time in the woods and you get a free evening and then you don't actually go.
I don't have access to parcels of ground that would hold a deer in a home range and allow unpressured habits to be expressed. As most of it is moubtainous and deer travel long ways to and fro in big woods. So, I hunt travel areas as most of the Bucks I see it is the first and last time I'll ever see them.
What I learned by mature deer is how crafty they can be. How they are something entirely different than a young deer in their alertness. And, they are easier killed on the tail end of the rut versus all the stuff magazines write about.
As the rut winds down, there is a three or four day period that the big boys are cleaning up or looking for the last does in heat. They are extremely vulnerable as they really move a long ways in doing so. If you can be in an area that deer naturally travel through at this time, you'll see deer you never seen. If they don't find a hot doe when they travel through, you better hope you catch him coming through. As you not lay eyes on him again. God Bless
What's really interesting to me is the difference in hunting areas. Frankly, trail cameras have really debunked some mature deer myths for me, on the farm I mainly hunt.
I used to think mature bucks were super smart, ghosts, that could evade Superman. I no longer think that. In fact, I've got multiple years of pictures of bucks over 4.5, that walk in daylight as much as some 2 year olds
I used to think mature bucks were largely nocturnal. I no longer think so.
I used to think that multiple sits in a stand were the kiss of death. I no longer think so.
I used to worry incessantly about pressure. I don't worry about it so much anymore. (this would change if the farm I hunted wasn't already 90% escape cover--I've come to believe that with the huge amount of cover on the farm I hunt, pressure is not nearly as big of a factor as it is on farms with smaller amounts of escape cover)
What I do think, is that at least where I hunt, mature bucks are inconsistent, wandering, wastrels. They're experienced, so they may hunker in cover and watch you walk by. They walk in daylight . . . a lot. They may bed near one acorn tree on the farm for 2 days and really use one area, then be half a mile away the next two days sniffing after some hot ladies. They're not any smarter than any doe on the place, but they also don't let their November hormones completely over-ride their good sense. They live off forbs, browse, and acorns, so they wander a lot.
I've never gotten any picture of a mature buck from a trail cam near the same time at the same place on multiple days. It's not avoidance of the camera, it's just that they are that inconsistent in their movements.
Hunting them is largely a matter of putting ones time in on stand in good areas. And even then, a target buck may spend 90% of his time off your farm.
You may disagree with me, and I confess I don't know all the particulars of your area. But with your big 10, that we've talked about before, I tend to think he lives off your place. As much as you've seen him and photographed him, I'd bet he spends more time on his feet in daylight than you think. I just bet it's off your farm. He hasn't outsmarted you guys, it just hasn't happened yet.
As much as I still think of them as mythical ghosts with super powers to detect hunters, I really don't think they are. There may be a rare unkillable buck out there that is primarily nocturnal. But I tend to think that most of those "nocturnal ghosts" just spend the majority of their time somewhere else.
Now here's a question for you. . . . I spend an inordinate amount of time on the farm I hunt. Between scouting, turkey hunting, mushroom hunting, checking trail cams, hunting, etc., I would guess I set foot on my farm at least 100 days out of a year. (even though it may just be walking 100 yards to check a cam) Would you think that my scent from my intrusion (which is so common), would bother the resident deer as much as the scent of someone they've never come across? Can they even tell the difference?
Bake... Great points!
I also try and have up most of my stands and trim lanes by late winter into the spring, although I have hung stands, trimmed lanes, a killed a buck the same day. I enjoy running trail cams but I never use them to try to pattern a buck, more so for inventory/enjoyment than anything else, plus during the timeframe that I'm hunting, their movements can be very unpredictable. Most of my cameras in the fall are over rubbing posts or scrapes along field edges and are situated where I can access them with minimal intrusion.
Lastly, a few of my better bucks have been deer that I had no idea were even around until they walked by me...hence the dumb luck statement. Like Matt stated, enjoy every hunt!
Last two seasons the deer I have shot were not on my cameras.
With zero ag, not using feeders and acorns everywhere, I have found that if I hunt the does, the bucks will come thru.
There is a drop tine buck that I have got on camera two years in a row. He is in the same area preseason and postrut.
I am going to try and avoid the area early this year and see if I can catch him slipping come post rut.
Very similar to how we hunt. We hunt the does and their hang outs. Leave most stands alone until late October- early November.
Bake...your points are valid and what I was looking for. We do overthink hunting these deer, at times.
I think many of the precautions we all take are very similar. Last years thread on this very subject will show you that. I feel that what Bake said is close to being realistic. How many times have we came close to killing these elusive bucks and don't realize it? Actually, I do realize it. In reality, this buck (in photo) would be a Hollywood star compared to some of the bucks I've killed and had never once seen. I love this talk.
I swear those two bucks were bedded in that thin line of trees and smelled me walk by and just sat tight. Then they got up and just casually avoided me. Amazing to witness and very humbling. From that position they could smell any hunter or hot doe that came by.
That said my unconventional principles that I adhere to each year is
I don't hunt trails just suttle changes in topo or internal edge diversions like blowdowns or fresh tops.
I don't hunt "hard edged " funnels like seen on aerials aka the no brainer standsites on aerials everybody is crazy about????
I will hunt "soft edged " funnels where a buck has multiple escapes or options .
I do learn every possible timber food source ......does are far more predictable than bucks.
I do most of my scouting in the prime of the rut.Have chainsawed shooting lanes at 11am and killed from that tree 3 hours later ha.
Don't be afraid to move from thick habitat to more open chase zones as the rut develops.
Be smart with what your experience as already taught you.Chasing the latest fad usually is a waste of time
I've got a story to testify to that. Rifle season. Late rut that year. Public ground. A herd of deer got pushed up to me. I know this because my brother busted them. I saw a "Big Buck" among them. I waited for him to clear the best he could of the brush and squeezed off. He was still moving pretty good when I shot. Deer exploded every where at the shot. I lost him in the madness. I jumped off that rock and ran down to the area where he was standing as quickly as I could. It was so thick on the ground, dry, and noisy, I run right in to all the confused deer basically unnoticed. It was mayham. I scrambled up on another rock and spent the next 8 or 10 minutes scoping all the deer looking for him.
Finally they nervously regrouped and left out around the mountain. I was dumbfounded. As I stood there trying to figure out where he had went I kept hearing something very faint in the leaves. Peering through the thick laurels with bino's from above, I finally caught a small color of white through a hole. In that instant his eye jumped out at me. That deer was hunkered down like a cat about to pounce trying to hide. He wasn't 25 yards away. But, he wasn't going to break and run. At that instant, I turned around, lowered by bino's, shouldered my gun, turned and faced him and shot him dead. Upon skinning, he had only one bullet hole. And, his big rack was a 19 5/8" wide FIVE point. But, his teeth were nubs. He didn't get that way being careless.
Mature deer all posses different personalty's. But, the one thing they all share is the ability to elude hunters. God Bless
Some days I come down on the "just lucky" side and other days the "skill/experience" side. One thing for certain is you need to kill lots of deer to get the confidence to get it done when the opportunity comes to you. A few years ago I posted that you needed to kill at least 50 deer to start to "get it" and took a beatin for stating that. It surprised me that guys thought that was a lot however it's not the number killed so much as it's the RANGE of experience that brings the confidence. If an opportunity on a great buck comes once every three years you must be confident. When I shoot a nice deer I think about about how many times the deer zigged and the many hunters before me zagged and he some how made it to me. Many of these mature bucks are just plain lucky like me:))
Genesis... good points. The hunt for a particular mature buck is different from region to region and one hunter over another, along with their tactics.
"You may disagree with me, and I confess I don't know all the particulars of your area. But with your big 10, that we've talked about before, I tend to think he lives off your place. As much as you've seen him and photographed him, I'd bet he spends more time on his feet in daylight than you think. I just bet it's off your farm. He hasn't outsmarted you guys, it just hasn't happened yet."
Bake... I agree. Although, he might be on his feet, he doesn't travel far, in my opinion. I do think he lives off of us too, for the most part. Could you say he's just "lucky", maybe? Then, to try and answer your question at the end of your post. I would think ANY human whether new hunter on the land or one that has hunted there for several years, results would be the same. The deer would flee or respond accordingly and similar reaction.
Many good points and methods from posters above. I think many of us utilize very similar traits when it comes to hunting mature bucks. Some are a little more fortunate than others due to region, deer density or superior genetics. Or maybe they are quicker at making adjustments in hunting situations? Then you have the moment of truth when that deer is coming down the trail to your hideout, can you keep it together and make it count?
One thing that I have really started to key in on where I hunt is finding areas where bucks can live their lives while being out of view from roads. Being very flat and having consistent mile roads, I found by lucking into mature deer that I have hunted over the years that they have found places where they can go from food to bedding and have staging areas all out of sight from the road. Timber up here isn't very tall, so a TON of scouting can be done from roads, I do a lot myself. You can also see mature deer from roads sometimes. But after following a a number of mature bucks and killing some of them I have found that they found areas where they can live their lives in areas that don't jump out as great hunting areas, but have everything they need, in out-of-the-way areas. I have now taken to google maps to try and find more spots like this. Sometimes where most fields and areas hold an obvious 10-12 deer, these spots have 1 or 2, but they're big bucks, and they have moved a LOT during daylight hours. Also, I've had GREAT mid October hunting, with these bucks on their feet often until 8:30-9:00 in the morning, and sometimes I can't get there quick enough in the afternoon in mid October with these bucks hitting their feet sometimes as early as 3:30. Another common denominator has been high grasses such as CRP, cattails for them to wander and cover large areas unseen.
The one consistency I've found where I hunt (very fragmented farmland) is the biggest bucks tend to bed in the smallest wood lots. And quite often, not far from busier roads.
Nothing will beat "boot time scouting"
I hunt a large tract of land with both a large amount of thickets and big timber.
So I would say experience has taught me to,
Know the terrain,
Read the sign you see, "if his prints aren't there, he isn't either"
Stand placement is paramount, "concealment is a priority with entrance to and from the stand being quick and quiet" Be willing to spend time on the stand, If busted be willing to relocate stand, Finally the last 20 yards prior to the shot will require some luck,
Why luck ?,
After doing everything right, he may stop for no reason, no alarm, doesn't wind you, he will just turn and go another way / direction.
Mature Bucks require a lot of "patience and a lot of humility"
:^}
I believe mature bucks (and does) are exceptionally skilled at sensing and avoiding hunting pressure. In many scenarios, they are better at patterning you than vice versa. Since he likely knows your patterns, bust out the changeup. Pop up a groundblind or even hide in a brushpile. Hunt odd little pockets of timber and cover you would normally overlook. Don't be paralyzed by fear of bumping him as the season ticks away, get aggressive. Instead of hunting the bluebird cold fronts, be out there in a driving storm. Alter your approaches. Jump around to different spots and stay mobile and quiet with a climber. Don't call, stay stealthy. Or if you don't call much, give it a try. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same results, one of my favorite quotes all time.
In general I'm a strong believer that unpressured bucks will maintain their core areas until the rut. That core area may change over the years, and a rut crazed buck can get shot 5mi from where you've been hunting him and you'd never know.
I think most successful deer hunters have an OCD bug somewhere. I'm OCD about scent control and how quietly I can get to and in my stand. I've noticed I don't breathe b/c I'm trying to listen especially in morning darkness, I have to stop myself and consciously breathe.
I've noticed this numerous times as well. In my case it's tall grass or briars in a lot of instances. Those does can be perfectly content and then, BAM.... they stop in their tracks and either do an about face or get edgy. I try to share stands with guys on my place, but they NEED to know MY entrance and exit to the stand, to a T. I've also been an advocate of not educating the deer/does in the area. The way to do this, in my opinion, is to limit the amount of times you go in and out of there. Also, like Yinzer said above, throw them a curve ball. Have stands in several locations if possible.
Lot of scent comes from your head. I like to powder my hair with baking soda, gets kinda gritty but I shower before every hunt. My clothes never come in the house unless washing, and always always hang them to air out after I hunt.
When I'm not hunting in the Midwest I mostly hunt public land around home that is highly pressured. This has forced me to hunt closer to where the deer are bedded. If you find yourself in this predicament set your stands where you need them and try to have at least 10-15 mph wind in order to slip in undetected. I have found the deer don't hear me get in and they will move before dark. If I don't have the wind, I don't hunt them and go to travel areas to hunt. When I find a new area I want to hunt I always spend a few weeks in an unkillable position to watch what goes on and how I can get myself into position. Once I have watched movements and figure out the best spot for stand placement then I will set up and begin hunting. I have to admit this technique sometimes doesn't always get me in a huntable place that season, but it more than helps make the ultimate decision the following year. In doing this I have learned what I ultimately thought was going on sometimes is not the case and has lead me to newer areas that I never thought to hunt. This type of scouting has proved to help me if you can be patient and enjoy the journey of finding key spots. I do a lot of post season scouting, my public land hunting doesn't have artificial food sources, so where deer hang out late season helps me to know where they are going to be when pressure is on and late season natural food sources are available. Some stands I only hunt in the late season because the deer are not there yet. I look for low cover browse like viburnums and young staghorn sumac as well as areas with ferns, deer where I hunt tend to be in these areas when browse is low. I'm not a scent nut but I will say my hunting season technique is simple, head and body hair is buzzed off, shower twice a day, no deodorant, after shave or cologne. Doesn't help your love life, but I truly believe when deer actually smell me I am so low odor that they think I'm further away than I really am. They just seem to skirt on by than stomp there feet and snort for a half hour. One last thing that has been most important in all my set ups is allow the deer to get by you undetected. The wind has to be 2/3rds in a mature deers favor if they are going to travel in pressured areas, if they can't they will only move in the cover of darkness. Setting up an observatory stand like I spoke of earlier will allow you to find the right position to allow this to happen. I'm always looking for fallen trees, streams, hills, anything that makes them go through an area that I can use to my advantage to position myself where they have the wind in their favor and can't smell me. That has made me have more encounters with mature animals. It's not always that way but for public land pressured deer that are mature, I have found that to be the case.
I few years ago I killed a 7.5 year old buck that I hunting for 3 years. The final piece that I was missing had nothing to do with wind, weather or my setup. It was really simple, the deer only lived on our farm for 10 days out of the year... We never got one picture of him before Nov 4th and never one pic after the 15th. He came in, worked the same doe group every year and went home. So after I identified the pattern, I waiting until I picked him up on camera and hunting the access to that doe groups bedding area. Killed him Nov 8th following a big doe that I had on camera every day going to a cedar thicket.
I agree with Link that seasonal stands, meaning go to spots, your ole faithful stand, shouldn't be over hunted. If you are a more aggressive hunter and you are slinking around spot to spot in your climber getting into the right position an area can take pressure for a little while so long as it's not in a constant artery of travel. Many guys I know are constantly moving with herd so speak as food sources change, movement in an area has changed, hunting places like Garrett said where bucks are moving into known doe bedding areas. Some years the does may approach a bedding area from a different place, you could really make yourself crazy if you want to.
I know earlier Bake brought up a good point about your scent being around as you check cameras, as I interpret that statement do any of you feel getting deer used to your scent in an area is a good thing? Reason I ask is I do not use cameras, in my mind (hunting pressured deer on public land) I feel as though any intrusion could blow a good spot, if you over pressure an area... any thoughts would be much appreciated! Maybe it's time to invest in cameras and get a little more of my scent out there:)
I also like Genesis's comment about clipping paths at right angles. . . . never thought about that, but that's a little gem I'm putting away for future use, for sure.
The scent thing around cameras. . . . Some of my cameras are on areas I access by truck or ATV. The landowner is on his Kawasaki mule EVERY day checking cows, fences, etc., and in his truck or tractor doing things regularly. I figure checking those cameras (some of them I don't even get off the seat of the Ranger) is about as harmless as you can get with deer hunting. In fact, I have a camera on a licking branch on a woods road that is heavily used by deer and for farm purposes. I've got picture sequences of the landowner on his ATV, then hours later a mature in broad daylight.
Just like deer can become habituated to farm machinery, farm activities, etc, I wonder if they can become habituated to an individual scent?? If they encounter my scent trail 50 times a year, with no negative repercussions, are they as alarmed by my scent as by the scent of someone who is never there? I mean this more for residual scent left behind while scouting, cam checking, after leaving a stand, etc. Not so much my scent as I actively hunt. . . .
Bake
One thing I will be doing differently during early season is hunting field edges and out of the norm spots. Actually, I think I'm going to hunt more field edges during the rut as well. I've always relied on my "deep stands", maybe a bit too much. Good talk...
As to Bake's comment about wondering if some individual ppl on individual farms get less a reaction due to exposure I would have to respond with an unsubstatianted "I wouldn't think so".Common sense would think that as one guy "grows" BO more than the next,It begs the question.However , I just think the exponential amount of molecules minimally being dispersed regardless would override this difference 99% of the time.
On observation stands , I use to use them a lot when if I had a concentrated food source early/late season but just really haven't had that opportunity in a good while. Now I seem to be far more aggressive than in my youth as the bucks dumb down in the rut.I still set up 25 yards or more to help with scent but am not in observation mode when the chasing begins
Another interesting scent snippet.I've seen many times the ever wary southeastern whitetail cut tires tracks from vehicles and atvs while obviously smelling the odor always not detouring due to the odor,however rubbber boots will turn them inside out every time....maybe 1 1/2 old bucks will not.
I have seen some mature does in MS go crazy over rubber boot scent where I had scouted 6 hours previously while I was perched 100 yards downwind in another tree.
In the midwest or Coues hunting NEVER had deer detoured by the same old stinky rubber boots.No doubt a guy could run his cameras off an ATV with minimal impact for sure.
My first impulse would be to scout the western side of the property across the ditch.The east/west cuts make for good perpendicular runs for bucks north/south.
I like the hard timber edge to the most north of that western area as night chasers can easy retreat perpendicularly southward and continue cutting those east/west timber cuts as he heads south.
It's not that easy but it looks like an area where a southern movement tendency could be predicted and leveraged against some northly wind vector.Mature bucks won't give you much play in the angle but boots on the ground may let you find that 15-20 degree mistake he could make once you factor the terrain in????? Just a stab
Might have to hunt him pre-rut when he is on his "normal" bed to feed and drink.
That bait must be like a drug or something to them...
A month after the rifle season in December, the local Wildlife Officer was walking he property and a creek bottom and found the buck dead under a blow down and only 150 from where I had killed my buck in early November. So this wounded buck, traveled two miles back to his core area and died there of his wound.
One might expect with lots of does, food, cover, water, and low hunting pressure, this buck would have stayed on the property, but NO, he wandered off in search of who knows what. Buck are buck I guess and sometimes we will never figure them out.
Good luck on your quest. Paul
I pulled cams this year in early January. One of my favorite areas to hunt, I pulled the cam and checked the card, and had 1 picture of a very nice 8 point for our area, obviously mature, at 11 a.m. I have never seen that deer before, and I generally have a really good idea of what bucks are on the place regularly.
Never saw him before. No pics after. Just one day. Broad daylight, moving. Sun was shining. No does in the pictures. No does in prior pictures. He appeared to be completely alone. No significant food source around besides the standard woody browse.
I have no idea what he was doing there. I'm curious if I'll ever get pics of him again. He had a funky tine, so he'll be recognizable probably.
This stuff fascinates me. Wish I knew more.
Bake
Speaking of bucks that were ghosts or had never laid eyes on... this buck from 2012 we had never once got a photo of or viewed with our own eyes. He showed up like a ghost. I think I'm okay with never seeing a buck if they have this head gear. Thinking back on this particular buck... I think he was run out of his "core area" by oil workers. They had cleared an area to the North of us which was a jungle of briars, river cane and thick under brush along with plenty of red oaks and water. Basically, his and other deer bedding areas, or sanctuary. They cleared this all out (30-40 acres) around the first week of October which I feel displaced him. I killed him in late October as he crossed a creek near a right of way, on my second sit from a new stand. Go figure.
The information in this thread is impressive. I'll keep following and will contribute when the topic is shooting does and 2.5 yr old bucks. :)
Whether in business, or hunting I try not to let the "one-offs" like that buck detract me from the overall of what I'm seeing. As much as we'd love to get in their heads we can't, who knows maybe he was chased there by a coyote, and soon returned to wence he came. If you see him again next year...then it's no longer a one-off :)
Very strange stuff they do.....
2006 - 2 bucks, 1 never knew was there, 1 I had seen once
2007 - No, cruiser (3.5 yr old) wish I hadn't shot him. (woke me from a nap)
2010 - one sighting on camera the year prior
2012 - no sightings
2013 - camera video of him from year prior
2014/15 - 1st buck, yes, on camera prior year. 2nd buck one sighting/close encounter during rut, shot him in January.
2015 - No sightings (5.5 yr old)
2016 - camera pics from early season
All of those bucks were 4.5 or older except the 2007 buck. Is a 4.5 year old deer considered "mature"? If not, I've been killing teenagers. :)
On the biggest pieces of land you have, with a snow, start walking. When you find a track that appears to be a buck, start on it. Watch for where the animal has put it's head down to feed - kicking snow out of the way or if it's minimal snow, just pushing it aside with it's nose.
Look for antler marks in the snow, above the head.
It's amazing, how with like 6" or more of snow, you can actually see where the antlers tips push into the snow when the feed. Clearly, bigger racks leave bigger marks in the snow.
For me, this has only resulted in watching big deer run away... but the guys that taught it to me have used it to shoot several big deer for our area (4.5+ YO's) Then again, one of the biggest was blind in the left eye, which is the side my friend managed to sneak up on it from... So that one was just cheating :)
Not sure if they are camera shy, just happen through, live only on the fringes of my properties, or my woodsmanship skills at picking prime camera spots is lacking. Some deer are just more visible than others.
With a younger daughter right now I'm depending on more luck than I'd prefer, but if I shot basket racks for the rest of my life I'd take it over having a bad family life.
