I do think that Michael Waddell will call in a few turkeys that I won't but I honestly think it is a few. I just don't think calling is that important. I think setup is the #1 factor.
With all that being said....Is elk calling the same? Do guys who stumble around in the woods but call like champions kill elk or do guys who understand elk, play the wind and have persistence kill elk even if their bugle sounds like a sick goat? I tend to think the latter but what I know about elk hunting can be put through the eye of a needle. :)
That said, there are times when silence is golden.
None of my 10 biggest herd bulls were taken by calling. Plenty of satellites.
Bigdan has taken many big herd bulls by bugling in their faces.
-The Bible
A good locator call is of value.
Good luck, Robb
Killed my best bull to date without using a call at all. Used the herd bull's bugles to maneuver in front of the herd and let him come to me.
A single cow call lured my second best bull into easy bow range after stalking in as close as possible....again using his own bugles to get close.
By some comments here the definition of calling to some differs from others. Calling is calling. If you call to locate elk, you are calling. If you only call at the time to stop a bull for the shot then you are calling. For some it sounds like when those of us that use calling to locate & kill elk they have in their mind that we call excessively or during the entire encounter. Guys this is not the case at all. Calling has its place in dark timber country to locate elk before they locate you. The same applies in thick downfall country where a silent ambush is impossible no matter how much a bull is bugling on his own, calling is king in those spots if you are to have any chance at all. Glassing has its place in more open sage or above timberline country, it's more recommended than calling for obvious reasons.
As hunters the more we understand what message is being sent as we use calling or we are hearing elk vocalize on their own the better hunters we will be. If you are a Runner & Gunner of elk you will find that calling is an essential part towards your success. Being a successful hunter on OTC DIY elk hunts requires a wide variety of tricks up your sleeve, there's no one size fits all or the kill stats would be 90% each year over 9% each year! There's times to call & times to be quiet & ambush. Read your present situation during an encounter & exercise your odds that will give you the best chance of a close encounter. Finding elk is one thing knowing what to do with them is another!
ElkNut1
How about "underrating the importance of not overcalling?"
Back in the 70s we could call with wood flutes and coiled gas pipes and the public land bulls would march in across meadows bugling their heads off like on the Primos vids. Now, more often than not, they sneak in silently to the source, even when it's real elk making elk sounds, and they sometimes take 30-40 minutes to show themselves.
Wonder what changed?
I see the very same thing with turkeys in my country. I am only 45 but I was hunting when they opened our county to turkey hunting. The farm I hunted was one of the primary spots for the original relocation. :) You can only imagine how fun it was for the first 3-4 years of hunting these birds. They gobbled their brains out and pretty much anyone could call them in. 20 years later and it is a different ballgame. While the birds I encountered anywhere 15-20 years ago seemed to love to gobble they are all pretty much the opposite now. More often than not when I kill a gobbler or even have an encounter they come in silent now. I believe it is hunting pressure and predators that have changed the game. I saw my first coyote in 1991 in my county...I don't even need to expand on how many we have now as everyone knows the coyotes adaptability and ability to survive.
Now, if you truly want to become a master cow caller, learn to do it with two diaphragms in your mouth and an external reed at the same time. Place one diaphragm behind the other. Sounds like a calf following two cows, and you can walk right into herds.
"It's all just one piece of the puzzle...all are important. You obviously need to be competent at stalking, shooting, knowing when to move and when not to, etc. Calling is no different. Being competent and confident can sometimes be the difference between drawing that bull into your lap, or sending him silently into the next drainage. That said, there are times when silence is golden."
In a closer encounter, calling can be effective in a team situation, but if you are solo hunting and you call, you just gave away your exact location to that bull. Oftentimes, he'll come straight at you looking for you. He'll be on alert, and you have to be lucky enough to get drawn, and to have a frontal shot opportunity.
Bowfreak, calling is not overrated. If you take a tally of all who have responded on your thread that have taken elk through any sort of calling for contact or a simple mew or grunt to stop an elk for the shot I think you will find it's a land slide that calling was used over 100% silence.
ElkNut1
My original question probably wasn't clear enough but I am talking mostly about calling prowess. Assuming one calls, do you have to be a good caller? I can't answer than for elk but I absolutely believe it makes almost no difference for turkeys. I think if you can make a sound that is similar to a turkey that you call well enough to kill most turkeys.
I would venture to guess that since the intelligence level of an elk is leaps and bounds above a turkey it is safe to assume that sounding more realistic is probably a little more important with regard to elk. Again....I have no idea, just assuming.
Take your calling practice serious now & you will do great when it's needed most!
ElkNut1
As far as being a proficient caller, IMO it's extremely important. No doubt, quality isn't real important when throwing out locator calls. Heck, at a distance you could probably elicit a response with a duck call. However, and it's a big however, when you get in tight to a bull, you better sound like the real deal. He may not pay much attention to quality from a distance, but from 50yds on in he certainly does. The one thing I've found that absolutely enrages a bull to the point he just HAS to come in and kick this "other" bull's butt is to cut off his challenge bugle with one that mimics his bugle EXACTLY. If you don't have the ability, and the confidence to do this, you're missing out on some incredibly intense, up-close-and personal experiences, IMO.
When I learned to turkey call I was a Junior in college. My friend was an experienced turkey hunter and I explained to him that I had bought a Dick Kirby cassette and a call to learn and that I could mimic a few of the calls after a day or so of practice. My friend came over and wanted to hear me call. I made a couple of yelps that were just barely considered yelps and he said, That's good enough. You can kill turkeys with that. The next spring I tagged out on public land in a few days of hunting with a scattergun. Nothing has really changed my opinion about turkeys and calling ability being overrated but I am a pretty good turkey caller (which may cause some positive bias) but more importantly I know what works to kill them.
The comment about satellite's and cow calls is good- but I'd shoot a cow before a satellite so that does not do much for me.
Don't know what I said, but it sure fired them up!
I went home and for the next year probably wore out a couple dozen diaphragms in the closet with the door closed. I got much better at it. And you know what? I started having a blast. Haven't killed a bunch, but that's more my fault on the set ups. Solo can be tough, they pin you down to within a couple feet is seems. Bulls hang up at 60 and are just too wary, sometimes spitting close and no shot, sometimes you can hear em as they methodically work their way downwind and bust you. Herd bulls I'm finding are almost another animal. I fail a lot a set ups. That is where I have to focus getting better at. But every now and then.... Fun to call in for buddies too and watch them kill em. Sitting water or treestands in some places is very..... effective. Spot and stalk is pretty cool. But IMO calling elk is hands down the most fun you can have with your clothes on....
To the OP..... Bigdan was spot on. Like most everything in life...... getting good at it will normally yield much better results.
Sure, there's lots of people that kill elk without calling. People also kill huge white tail without calling/rattling. You put your butt in the right place with the right setup/conditions and they'll walk right past you without you ever making a sound. That doesn't mean a lick when it comes to calling. It just means that putting your butt in the right place can result in you shooting a bull, whether you ambushed him or stalked him.
I don't only hunt elk by calling, but I know one thing for sure - *for me* calling has resulted in many more shot opportunities than any other way, has been the only way I've ever killed elk, and is buckets more fun.
That said, I hunted a public land giant this past year that absolutely would not come to calls that I tried in every way I knew how over several days. I figured out that *I* need to ambush him and hopefully I'll get the chance this September. Perhaps Bigdan could call him in, but I'm not Bigdan. I call in several elk every year. But there are people that are waaaay better at it than I am, so I'd say it's not overrated.
Every animal in every scenario can be killed if you hunt it right. That's one of the things that's so rewarding about hunting: Are you good enough to outmatch the animal on its own terms more than blind luck will allow?
As much as many of us would love to slip in unannounced to a bugling bull it's just not possible in a lot of country elk inhabit. There's so much downfall & underbrush that you will be heard on your approach, then there's cows between you & the bull, there's the wind to contend with. We need to evaluate our situation when in each individual encounter & hopefully read the Situation correctly & apply a method that will give us the best odds for a close encounter. First & foremost I do my best to try to slip in the direction of elk I know are there with no calling. If I get to the point because of terrain obstacles/cows in the way & this is no longer possible I now adjust my thinking & go to plan B. What that plan is depends on the action I'm hearing, this will tell me if I have an aggressive bull or a non aggressive bull I'm dealing with. Bottom line, multiple aggressive bugling bulls represents defensive action & means there's a hot cow present, this is a good candidate to be aggressive with. A bull bugling on his own from same area every 5-15 minutes represents a bull Advertising himself, he's looking for cows to build his harem, this is not a Location bugle & he's not interested in a confrontation, if you get aggressive with this bull off the get go you have a 5% chance of killing him, this is a bull you must start by being subtle with if calling is needed, you can amp things up once the hook is set, patience is a virtue here. Reading A Situation & hunting smart go hand in hand.
These two photos here show some of the terrain that is encountered where slipping in silent is not an option so calling is needed to seal the deal!
ElkNut1
I don't lack confidence in blowing on a call to and mimicking sounds. Making elk sounds are not super difficult. Yes...I can become way better at it but it is not difficult. I also don't lack confidence in killing an animal with my bow. What I lack is experience on how to close the deal on elk. I could make the most beautiful sounds in the world on elk calls and if knowledge and experience is not up to snuff it won't matter. Time, persistence and experience is what I need and with every season I am learning more.
Team calling setups are a different story, provided each guy is in synch and the primary caller knows what he's doing. I prefer the added challenge of solo hunting but no question team calling is very effective if done the right way. Problem is, it takes a lot of experience to learn all the nuances. Newer hunters don't have that experience and end up educating a lot of bulls.
Good smart calling & a good setup are paramount in dark timber country! The greatest calling is for want if you have a lousy setup. The same applies to stalking, you can be the greatest stalker around but when you hit the downfall crap that halts you your odds drop off the table for success. The versatile hunter that is able to think clearly & weigh his options with what he's faced with will find a way in many cases! Being one dimensional can cost us!
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
Sneak in as close as you dare to then start by raking a tree first ! A lot of times that is all you need.
Yes i can hunt them in the trees also, but i have much greater success because i have figured out how to hunt open country.
We are all gonna go about it a little different....But one thing is for sure...Nobody knows more than all of us combined;)
ElkNut1
This year I'll be going completely solo to Wyoming and hopefully can break my curse! But I plan going later than I have in the past, hoping the elk may be more vocal so I can have better odds of locating and stalking them.
The example of turkey hunting was used - the epitome of turkey hunting is calling in a mature tom and shooting it. NO other way is considered more rewarding than fooling a mature bird. Argue all you want but that's held as the highest goal. That's why fall hunting isn't as popular or rewarding.
Elk calling is the same scenario - when you can fake out a mature bull to come into bow range you have just accomplished the pinnacle of elk hunting. I've had bulls close enough that they were throwing bushes on me as they raked them (yet frustrating enough I couldn't get a shot).
I'm not saying other ways aren't effective or bad - they just aren't the same.
Or it's because they have been successful using cow calls or a combination of cow calls and bugles. It's also possible they are roughing it out in highly pressured OTC units hunting lower aged class bulls who are susceptible to cow calls.
:)
Also collaborated with cnelk and OTCwill for an elk hunting article coming in Bowhunter in June. Some calling info in there and probably too late to edit it out..
Don't pay attention to any of the suggestions. They don't work and are highly overrated! ;)
Maybe because it works?
Or maybe maybe most turkey hunters "cant gobble good enough to call anything"
When calling it's about that amazing experience using multiple senses.
BUGLELK's Link
A few thoughts after reading through the posts...
ELKMAN said, "Calling Elk is the single most over hyped, over marketed tactic in the hunting industry. Calling has cost more guys Bulls by double than it has ever killed..."
I couldn't agree less... :-) In my opinion, bad calling has cost guys bulls, yes, but good calling, not hardly. And I'm not talking about being a good caller in terms of quality sounds. Knowing what to say and when to say it, and more importantly, how to say it, is the key. Once you figure that out, calling can be incredibly effective, and in my experience, takes the elk hunting experience and success to new levels.
txhunter58 said, "listen to the elk and give them what they want." Very wise words for sure. You can't just go out and expect to call in an elk doing the exact same thing every day of the season. It takes understanding elk and elk behavior to effectively use calls to communicate with elk. However, many of my experiences regarding elk densities have been opposite from what txhunter58 described. I usually prefer to rely on my calls more on heavily-pressured, public land, OTC bulls. When I get into an area where there are a lot of elk and a lot of vocalization (draw units, etc.), that is probably when I'm going to be most likely to put the calls away for a few minutes and start shadowing the bugling bulls. If I can single out one bull that is somewhat responsive, I will attack him with calling. When there are multiple bulls bugling, it can be more difficult to get the attention of a mature bull with the calls. Regardless, calling without understanding what the elk are saying - or what you are saying to the elk - is not going to be very effective.
Lastly, when someone like willieboat talks about elk hunting...listen closely to every word! :-)
Carry on...
Many thanks, Corey Jacobsen Elk101.com
I'd wager that 95% of elk hunters have no clue what they're saying or why. A few get lucky once in awhile and accidentally make the right sounds and a bull comes in. Otherwise the success rate would be significantly higher than mid-single digits on public land.
Calling is one of the biggest reasons people don't kill elk.
I could write a 3 book series on the latter statement and fill up most of an index card on the former :^)
*Hoof thumps and sticks breaking fades
"We should have just closed in. The wind is perfect, ground is wet and good cover!?"
"Sorry, I thought I could pull him in"
"You always think that. Are you here to call elk or kill elk?"
"Ummm, actually.."
"Never mind, lets go find some more."
"You mean locate bugle?"
"No"
"Sneak into the bedding area and cow call?"
"No"
"Go over the hill and do a blind call set-up?"
"No"
"You mean put my calls away?"
"Thank you"
"Ok, we'll just rake trees I guess. I didn't bring my rattling horns"
"Are you kidding me?"
"Sort of"
Those of us that recommend calling do so because it can work in a huge way towards ones success, but, if you're one of those guys that wants maximum benefits with minimum amount of effort put forth it won't sit well when it comes to calling elk or about anything in life.
One of the biggest issues I see on a yearly basis is guys do not call enough, they expect the elk to do all the calling, when the elk do not do this these hunters are silent most the day themselves, this is a mistake. Many days you have to make things happen. Now if you are sitting an ambush spot or destination area then that can change things. But if you want the biggest adrenaline rush elk hunting has to offer take the challenge at beating elk at their own game on their home court, there's no better satisfaction in life! You will quickly realize that knowing a couple cow calls & bugles won't cut it. Calling is an art.
If you haven't taken many elk in your career then lower the bar & get some bow kills under your belt, don't feel you are under peer pressure here & it has to be a 5-6 point or nothing! You gain confidence by being successful, all elk are trophies!
ElkNut1
