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Please note that I said "RELY". Cameras and the like are TOOLS, not skills. It's akin to only being able to do basic math with a calculator, and if the calculator fails then you are stuck. If this is your situation then you DON'T know basic math. Same with woodsmanship.

To me, running trail cams is a lot like trapping. You just cant place them nilly willy. There has to be some method and reasoning.

I dont think trail cameras are 'taking away' skills, but refining the skills you have and building on them. Just like trapping.

I've just purchased a couple and right now I'm going to set one for weasels. At least I think that's what's stealing the pocket gophers out of my live trap. Trap door is closed, all the gophers gone and nothing in the box.

I don't think there is a hardcore hunter out there that hasn't learned / isn't always learning woodsmanship. No one gets successfull by walking into a bush and hanging a pile of cams then walking back and whacking a booner with a bow. Then doing this on repeat. Whitetails are too wary for that. If you know of "young guys" that have repeated success, it's because they are learning about whitetails the same way you did, but with the added advantage of trail cameras, google earth, and some of the other wonderful goodies technology brings that just helps to steepen the curve. I will give you that though, with the advancement of technology, a person can learn quicker today I think that in years gone by if they use all what is available. Of course they are available to young and old.

But for those that use them, I think they only help to answer some of the questions you previously could not answer, thereby giving a person more knowledge of the quarry we pursue, with that knowledge I would venture that it would increase a person's woodsmanship skills, as he is able to piece together more of what he sees with data he is getting from cameras.

I seriously doubt that anyone placing trail cameras, has 'no previous skills'.

And so what if they didnt! Like mentioned above, its getting guys out in the woods.

Now if you want to chat about lack of woodsmanship as a 'whole', let's include GPS's and hunting over bait

Or maybe we should just concede that anyone born prior to 1970 is by default a better deer hunter due to increased woodsmanship skills todays youth simply can not achieve.

If I wanted to truly go back to being a hard core sportsman, I'd use wool, hunt from the ground, spot/stalk type hunting, no optics, shoot a recurve or longbow, sharpen my own broadheads etc.

I find as a general rule in my area that those born before 1970 are poorer hunters than the young crop. They're the ones steeped in tradition that still believe "once a spike always a spike", and a host of other nonsensical crap about deer.

It was a very respected older hunter who wrote "How to Bag the Biggest Buck of your life", and wrote that there was NO WAY a buck could rub urinate. He claimed it was physically impossible. Of course, we now have thousands of videos of bucks doing just that.

1-800- Call - A - Counselor

This reminds me of the self-congratulatory threads on the LW about why some trad guys imagine themselves to be better hunters and woodsmen than others who choose to shoot a compound.

Sheesh!

I get the point by the OP but I'm 35 and I know guys I grew up with that are exceptional woodsman. They all run trail cameras but they are also in the field A LOT. They have the proof on their walls to back it up too.

When I go bear hunting in a few weeks, I'll take along cams to place on the carcass remains and gut pile. Once the ravens show up and ring the dinner bell, it's a circus sometimes ,with coyotes, wolves, black and grizzly bears. Sometimes lynx, martens and weasels to. Very entertaining!

I believe a person should limit their use of technology to what gives them satisfaction. (within reason, drones etc,) And let the next guy to do the same.

And for the record, I'm almost 64, I can navigate by compass, can find tinder and start a fire in the rain, make a spruce bow bed and shiver boldly through the night because I doubted the compass.

Imagine how the knapped head guys reacted when some lazy Indians started using steel "trade points". OMG, they aren't even chipping their own heads anymore!

Get him into the woods first. Plenty of time after that for old coots to teach him the "right ways" to hunt.

Though, in all honesty, like any good car wreck I'll rubber neck it like the next guy and check back up on it Ha ha ha.

1) Are cams taking away woodsmanship skills? -- Maybe--depending on user. But I'm not so sure we need to be able to guess how big a rack is by where the main beams create holes in the snow. Is it woodsmanship to make a wild ass guess ? :)

2) Are cam users "missing out"? I can't speak for us all. But personally, I don't believe I'm missing anything. In fact, it adds a whole new level of enjoyment for me personally.

You know, I'd like to be a better woodsman. I'd like to have more knowledge about identifying all the different types of oaks, woody browse, etc. And that is something I work on. I'd like to know more about all types of animals, and what makes them tick.

I'd like to understand terrain influences better in some circumstances. Sometimes I give up and just realize I may never know why critters prefer a certain travel path. Maybe it's just enough to know that they do indeed prefer it. There are obvious terrain and cover influences, but I'll admit there are some circumstances I'm aware of that I just can't tell you why deer prefer to move through one area that is unremarkable.

I've said it before, I'll repeat it. I hunt for me. If it makes me happy and is legal, and within my personal code of ethics and morality, then I'm going to do it. Be damned to those who disagree.

There are people on this site, who's opinions I respect, that do not use trail cameras for various reasons. Some of them having to do with impact. I get that. I've chosen to increase my enjoyment level at the cost of some impact problems. I realize that by checking and running cameras, I may create some negative impacts (although I don't believe much on my particular farm), but that is something I am willing to accept to increase my personal enjoyment.

Some people take minimizing scent to an extreme. I used to, until it sucked all the fun right out of hunting. So I quit doing it. Maybe maybe maybe it decreases my chances. Again, a cost I am willing to pay to increase my personal enjoyment.

So I guess I'll close with a question for you. (okay, two questions) Why do you care if cameras reduce woodsmanship skills? And what impact does it have on you if my woodsmanship skills suffer as a result of my running cameras?

Bake

No doubt some salty ol low tech hunters think they know everything and are in a rut and will continue in that same rut while silently being dissatisfied with their results.....

The answer is in the middle imo

Apauls.... "I don't think (nor have I ever heard of) ANY successful hunter relying on trail cams." Agree with that as well!

I'm going turkey hunting...

" I don't think (nor have I ever heard of) ANY successful hunter relying on trail cams." Really? Come on! Who are we trying to fool here?

So, does the the use of aerial photos increase your odds and take away feet on the ground and woodsmanship?

I bet guys who rode horses when cars became popular said, "Those guys who drive those cars have lost any ability to be a good horseman."

The reason you did half of the things listed is because you didn't have the tools we have today. We don't have to guess what size the buck is from that track! We can get a picture and half the bucks we get on cams you would have NEVER known they were there because they are ghosts.

Because your initial post and your last post are completely different. In your initial post you stated nothing about a new hunter.

Question :

If the camera is covering a bait pile, is it a tool of scouting, or is it a tool of / for information ?

For those who rely on camera's so be it.

For those who do not use a camera so be it.

When it comes to mature bucks you need experience, information, and a little luck.

The rest is just opinion's.

That may have been what you meant to say EF, but not what came out. As far as chest puffing goes, as far as I can tell there was only one statement claiming a group of people superior to others in any way.

As far as cameras goes, I think there have been many good responses. In fact, I hunted a group of bucks that I would see every single time I hunted, and I set up two cameras in that area trying to photograph them and got ZERO pictures of them, yet I saw them every time I hunted. They were so big it hurts. I simply wanted a pic to show my buddies what I was telling them was real. In the end I got no pics. So to not hunt because you don't have pictures in my mind would be ludicrous. A buck could walk past a camera a million different ways without getting a pic. My favourite use of cameras is using them on scrapes to see what is around, and which way they are headed before/after.

Huh?

I'm going to say "No, he/she would not rely on cams too much." Have you seen the price of trail cameras lately? Most brand new hunters can barely afford the bare minimum in equipment to get started. They certainly can't afford a handful of trail cams.

For me personally, I don't use them because I think used in a certain way they are too much of an advantage. Otherwise, I think they just are an expensive habit to get into for casual use and "inventory". Not worth the cost to me, especially where I hunt, but it is enjoyable to see pictures from them when friends send'em my way.

Or maybe it's just plain ol envy and jealousy when they see somebody else with their hands wrapped around a 180..... they OBVIOUSLY had to have "cheated" somehow to kill it..... and in the next breath talk about it's not about the trophy but the experience.....

or maybe there is some aversion to dealing with dead animals...... know lots of folks who never seem to kill much and when the opportunity to do so comes along they walk the other way.... I really haven't a clue as to why anyone would care how somebody else killed something. Did it somehow cheapen or effect your hunt in any way? Why would it?

Have no issues with how anyone one else chooses to hunt. And don't really care what anyone thinks about how I hunt. A person hunts for themselves IMO. Worrying about how or why somebody else does.... seems a waste.

Not anymore than he would be distracted by hot chicks his age who don't approve of hunting of any type. Get him out in the woods by any means possible. Otherwise he will be lost to hunting. The statistics you're vaguely referencing don't lie.

Wake up and look around, old feller. Your world died about the time your namesake died - 1962. Just like old EF, it ain't coming back no matter how much old dinosaurs bitch and gripe.

Hell, I barely remember the 80s, and the 90s I was busy with a career and raising kids.

Whatever you need to fulfill that is what you should do.

The hypothesis is based upon a false premise. There is no proof to support it, only supposition.

Suffer fools gladly.

Classic.

at least he has his excuses down..... whitetails must be on the verge of being endangered....

wifishkiller, I'm thinkin' it feels leatherwallish.... because it is in fact from the leatherwall.....

I'm thinking it's time to go back to where it's comfortable... back on the LW...... I'm sure these discussions about how much better "we" must be are much more acceptable when talking to the regular round table curmudgeons.... at 61 I'm a pup to Jaq's 63.... apparently it's not an age thang.... it's a mentality...

And I don't have to puff out my chest..... it comes pre-puffed.......

How about this one boys?

Who gets to decide the relative difficulty of hunting challenges? Who has a license to criticize and diss other hunters for using legal methods?

Funny thing is then he says "Any good wallow has 3-4 cameras on it, really sad" but yet he's ok with almost 60 units out and about. I'm not a "Rules guy" far from it, but I'm glad to see MT had vision to regulate them a bit.

IMO Forest has a great point.... "Woodsmanship" is laughable if you are within a mile of your vehicle. "Woodsmanship" involves coping with being out for days and miles away from the comforts. Not figuring out how big a buck rubbed up that tree in your backyard. Good grief....

We have a lot of clichés on here and woodsmanship is not riding a four wheeler to a food plot and taking it to a processor. I am not claiming to be the woods master but go into the forested regions and to consistently kill mature bucks on public land requires much greater woodsmanship than hunting agriculture lands.

Walk a mile into an area without a GPS in the dark without a flash light and find your designated tree will test many. I had a career of hitting unknown spots in the dark in areas throughout the world that I may have not existed and I see my skills eroding precipitously.

Sorry for the hack but this is like asking if you need base layers at 9K in the Rocky mountains in September.

Changing Times-A Generation Lost?

We sit around the campfire, the three of us. It is a cold, bleak night at the end of a cold bleak day. We walked a lot that day, saw a lot, made notes and maps. February is often a bleak month. But it is month to gather information. It is February, 1980. The hardwoods are naked. We had notes of rubs, scrapes, trails we did not know about, creek and fence crossings that suddenly became used, small, dense thickets we had ignored. It is called, post-season scouting. Once, and still to me, it is an integral part of deer hunting. A time to gain knowledge that may be put to use in seven or eight months. Keys to where that big buck vanished, why trails became unused and new trails opened. Rub lines and signpost rubs we did not know about during the season. Food plots do not exist in my hunting, nor do feeders or trail cameras. I gather all my information from the woods.

It is hot so we go in the early morning. Binoculars are a must. We scan trees, looking for growing acorns or ripening fruit. We check old, tried and true crossings. Has a tree fallen and changed a travel pattern? Are they still coming off the ridge, down the sloping point? Are the stands all safe, shooting lanes open? It is August, 1980. It is called pre-season scouting. It is the time plans are made, stands picked for opening day, a last limb or bush trimmed. The season will open in a month. We won’t be back until then. We have done our homework.

On the back porch, clustered around the table, we compare notes, the three of us. There is talk of the big, white oak, magnet tree and three persimmons in the bottom. How a big hickory went down in the storm and took down two posts of the old fence. It is now a major crossing. Mickey put a stand up. They are watering some and playing in the old, water-filled sinkhole. Good place to kill a doe.

It is 2017. He turns off Face Book. He pulls up his latest pictures. At the feeder, a lot of does and fawns are visiting. Two young bucks come regularly in daylight, one maybe shooter is coming at night. He moves to the next set of pictures from another camera. It is August.

His pictures from the middle food plot look good. He needs to fix the window on the shooting house. Next year, he will put in another, larger plot with a shooting house on each end, more cameras. The deer are coming late in the afternoon, several does with fawns and a couple young bucks. His camera doesn’t show what is coming at night. Last year, the two bucks he wanted to kill, never showed during daylight. He had only night pictures.

He makes notes on what deer he is seeing on camera and where and even names a couple of them. He is not sure if he will hunt opening day. He has to pull his feeders out two weeks in advance. Will the deer still come to check on them? He needs another ladder stand, one by the trail into the second food plot. Maybe in that big tree. He thinks it is a maple.

Over the past dozen years, I have seen it become more and more prevalent. This dependency on supplemental feeding and technology to help a hunter kill a buck. It worries me. I know it shouldn’t, it is really none of my business. But I fear we are, maybe not so slowly, losing a certain breed of hunter. The woodsman.

I read and hear talk between younger hunters who have no concept of woodscraft. They have no idea how to scout. They do not know what to look for. They would not know a fence crossing if they saw it. They have no concept of altering structure to make a deer go a certain way. They know nothing of travel patterns or preferred feeding of woodland browse. They pick stand trees based on where the food plot or feeder is located. They ask each year, “When is the rut?” Some, hunt out of near mansions complete with heaters. Instead of constantly scanning the woods around them for a slight flash of movement, they play video games and text, looking at the feeder or food plot, now and then. That worries me. I know, it shouldn’t. I know there are still some who know the ways of the deer and other woodland creatures. I hope they pass it on. How much the techno hunters miss in not learning the wildlife ways.

I am old. I know and practice the old ways. Last year, on two pieces of new property, I scouted, considered and placed eight stands, based on what I could see. There were no food plots, no fields. The properties were hardwood and cedar ridges and hollows. How I loved those days of walking, looking, learning and making decisions. I had never seen either piece of land before. It was all new, exciting.

From those eight stands, I killed nine deer-seven does, two bucks and passed up several. I killed at least one deer from seven of the eight stands. That one stand, I missed a bow shot and passed up a young buck. I quickly realized two things. First, it was about 40-yards in the wrong place. Second, it was facing the wrong way. I fixed that in February.

I climbed trees, hung fixed position stands and put up ladder stands. I cut shooting lanes and even made a mock scrape. I noted the oaks and beech trees that held mast and the four persimmon trees I did not know were there. I placed a stand 32-yards from an obvious fence crossing. The first time I hunted it, I killed two does and passed up four bucks. I am 73-years old and I enjoyed last season as much as any I have had in years. I had new property to learn, new trails to find.

For many years, hunting for me was a profession and I studied all I could to become better-better at hunting, better as woodsman-and I did. To me, that was the joy of hunting. The killing, the trophies, were a bonus. I don’t see that much today. Today, it is all about how can we get bigger bucks? How can we kill bigger bucks? How can we make killing one easier? Is it supposed to be easier? Is that what hunting is becoming?

It worries me. I know, it shouldn’t. I’m just an old man, set in his ways. I hate to see it dying out. Face Book is bad enough. ###

I have a couple cams that I use on elk waterholes, mostly for entertainment. I often get bulls on cam that I never see on the ground, have never killed an elk at one of the wallows I'm camming. Actually have only ever killed one bull I have photographed in the 12 years I've been doing it, and I stalked him 2 miles away.

Has this affected my "woodsmanship"? Hardly. Has it made anything easier? Nope. But I get some great photos for entertainment and which tell me about some of the elk in the area. It makes the overall process more fun, and enjoying the process is what I hunt for and live for year-round, not just "filling a tag" by someone's else's standards. I think many others feel the same way.

Making rash, broad-brush judgments about people who do things differently is a form of bigotry. Interesting that those who seem to disapprove of cameras also tend to be hard-core trad guys.....

Friend is sitting a bear bait for a week straight. The bait is getting crushed but yet no bear encounters when the stand is occupied although the bait keeps getting crushed.

Trail camera placed, and low and behold, said bear is coming in right at first light vs. last light. In otherwords, the morning of all things.

First sit based on times and photos from trail cam, dead bear. Not many guys are going to sit a bear bait from dawn to dusk. I understand that bear had every opportunity to not come in while the stand was occupied, but that camera told him when to be there vs. the traditional "The bear must be coming in after dark".

I read somewhere on another post, we're doing less hunting and simply becoming "Shooters". I couldn't agree more, and will be changing my tactics up greatly as I'm starting to get bored with traditional "bowhunting tecniques". In short, it's starting to get boring.

Trail cameras: I'm sure they can be a problem-solving aid. They are marketed with that in mind. They will do that if you are savvy enough to use them and collect the data. Most of us are probably using them as an adjunct to having fun and seeing what we often miss by not being a 24 hr inhabitant of the woods. We're not getting enough data or using it to plot the precise kill point. We may be collecting enough info to know 'he' is around and frequenting one area more than another. Used enough they will likely entice us to make decisions on where to hunt and potentially lead to the kill.

Personally I don't think cameras have to lead to a loss of human skills. Neither does a rangefinder but if you surrender your human skills in favor of technology then...yes...tech wins. I own and sometimes have cameras up on my farm. They're a toy for me. I post them in places I don't hunt and I collect the images about every month or two.

Isn't the second half of your statement Jaq an example of the first half of your statement.

Isn't the second half of your statement Jaq an example of the first half of your statement.

Cams probably make me shoot fewer deer.

I've also always wondered if those who decry cams and foodplots and other such efforts..... if they honestly put in HALF the overall time, thought and effort as many of those who do use them...... you see it all the time, people putting others down for "trying too hard".....

"Well yeah, I could have done that too.... if I really wanted too...."

Classic.

I get it that many trad guys are semi-Luddites by choice, and that's ok. But look at posts on this thread that imply hunters who use technology are lacking in woodsmanship, missing skills, whatever. Pretty much all from LW guys who wandered over here to pass judgment. Old EF tried to force a false conclusion unsupported by any facts. Even MichaelArnette posted "I'd say so", and he's too young to know any better.

The open minded trad guys who frequent these big game hunting forums like Kevin Dill, Glunt and Rock and even Woods Walker acknowledge that its what you make of it, nothing more, no reflection on the skill or "woodsmanship" level of younger guys. If cameras get them out in the woods and keeps them there, adding to their enjoyment (and MAYBE to their success), that's a great thing.

I remember these same aspersions being cast when compounds started to become popular. The sound of gums flapping.

Perhaps there is a subset of young people who hunt only whitetails who are losing something, but I'd say that their camera use is going to teach them something and there's always going to be that subset of hunters for whom hunting is not so consuming (as it is for most of us on this website) that they'd immerse themselves in it. That's not a new development.

.

And accumulated time in the woods....along with the learning aspect....is what leads to woodsmanship.

Not to mention the thousands used for black bear,pronghorn,coues.Elk/mule deer get some play as well.

Add up all the bowkills in NA annually and I think it would be remarkable nationwide of how many animals got their photo taken by somebody.

A while back I read a book about the Long Hunters from the late 1700s to the mid 1800s.

One of their tactics was to go into the wilderness with a brace and bit and some salt. When they found a good location, they would drill holes in a log, fill the holes with salt and plug the tops of the holes. Over the course of a couple of months the salt would be absorbed into the wood. They would return in the fall and hunt these logs for deer and elk. But these guys weren't true woodsman like we have today. . . .

It did for me. When I saw the title this morning, I was thinking it was about cams on a bow and this being another compound VS trad thread. Then, I opened it and realized that it was about cameras and I remembered that I'd actually replied several times last week.

oz