Are treestands ethical?
General Topic
The thread on trail cams got me thinking - some who diss trail cams, rangefinders, ozonics, etc. have no problem hunting out of trees placed high above the animal. Why? Is it to make it easier to kill stuff? Easier for out-of-shape hunters to succeed? More difficult for the animal to see or smell the hunter? I get it for disabled hunters, but for able-bodied hunters, why do you do it?
Seems like there are plenty of good "reasons" why they are so common, but does it give the hunter more of an unfair advantage than many of the other tools some find so intolerable?
I use treestands and cams. I would say that a treestand gives more advantages than cams.
But then, I use mechanicals to. So I'm already way off the straight and narrow.
Hunt how you want, Ethics topics are moot. What is ethical for some may not be for others. Who are we too decide. I myself don't like what trail cams have evolved into. Now you can be sitting on the couch and get a pic of the deer in real time. To each his own, I would rather scout, figure out what the deer are doing and hang my stand and go in and kill it. Shawn
What about those HECS suits? :)
"Easier for out-of-shape hunters to succeed?" Jaquomo, obviously, you have never been out of shape. Putting up and climbing in and out of a tree stand is no easy task for an out of shape hunter.
I just posted my bow, technical clothing, rangefinder, etc on eBay. These threads really got me soul searching. I'm going trad (self bow), cotton clothing, the works.
Ethics are up to each individual, they are not for others to determine for you.
You don't think hunters in loincloths with atlatls climbed trees to gain an advantage? I can promise you, they did.
What about those HECS suits? :)
Witchcraft, no degree of sorcery is acceptable IMO. THALL SHALL NOT PASS!
"Easier for out-of-shape hunters to succeed?" Jaquomo, obviously, you have never been out of shape. Putting up and climbing in and out of a tree stand is no easy task for an out of shape hunter.
Ground blinds are more applicable for this argument. Far far harder to hang a stand than is to sit in a tent.
I don't think anyone truly dissed the aforementioned equipment, either they chose to use them or not and for various reasons. If any and all of this technology (treestands included) gave hunters an overwhelming advantage deer would be near extinct in short time, and thats hardly the case. If anything we aren't thinning populations properly, look at all the recent outbreaks of disease. I think this topic has LW written all over it.
What type of treestand? If they are using an old Baker treestand, I'd say that puts the odds in favor of the animal being the one that comes out alive.
Treestands only allowed if you were born after 1970.
Isn't that the truth Buzz! I never hunted one, but my dad did A LOT! Heavy wood climbing stand, whats wrong w/ that? everything.
I'm with Aaron, I'll be selling all my crap and going to cut me down an osage orange tree tomorrow. Taking a flint knapping course this weekend. Leather working next week so I can learn how to make some moccasins. I've got plenty of turkey feathers in my freezer for fletching, oh wait, that's cheating too, nevermind. Should I google how to make primitive clothing or is that against the movement? Maybe take my horse and cart down to the Amish and ask them? Anyhoo... a lot of not so good crap will be for sale, soon. It's not Hoyt or Sitka, but it will be good for a newb. Oh... and 20+ stands for sale. Call me... :)
Are push-up bras cheating? (Ned would know apparently)
Any scoped crossbows for sale?
Would almost bet that hunters have been climbing trees to gain advantage over prey since humans have been hunting - probably before the invention of the atlatl or even the spear...
Not much of a tree stand hunter myself - mostly because I hunt western animals over large chunks of country and they are far less predictable than whitetails. Might hang a treestand and never get an animal to come by it during the season out here.
Don't own a trail camera for the same reason above. Might get a few interesting pictures of bears or elk where I hunt, but would be difficult to get pictures of mule deer. Would rather go out and find them with my optics... Now my optics would probably be considered an unfair advantage in most of the areas I hunt! Most hunters never see any animals up there unless they have good optics or just happen to bump something bumbling around.
Guess carbon arrows with steel broadheads could be considered a pretty significant advantage over a cane shaft with a flint or obsidian point. Definitely extends my effective range with my longbow.
Treestands are ethical to me cuz that's the way I've always done it. Are they a big advantage? Yuge. But I don't get up high enough that I never get winded. I still have to hunt smart and stay downwind or I'm busted.
Actually, for many out west their pickup truck or ATV is their hunting stand. Just step off and fire away. Some do not even step out, one foot on the ground is legal in some states.
If you're hanging as many stands as many of these folks say they are, can it really be that EASY?
:-)
"Some do not even step out, one foot on the ground is legal in some states."
That's so they can leave the other one on the brake, safety first :)
If Fred Bear was a "real" hunter he'd have killed that tiger off the ground, without beaters driving it to him...
I think Hoyt bows are ethical but all other brands are not. Oh and it is also unethical for everyone except me to apply for premium limited entry big game tags!!!
I wish I had power to delete my posts. ;)
Whew!! I'm out of breath from chasing the mailman down to give these back.
These are so deadly, some states don't allow them. Too much much technological advantage.
How is a middle-aged muggle like me supposed to hunt? I wish someone would write a book with all the rules.
So, I guess food plots are out of the question....
Chit!.......Burnt my popcorn again!
Indians used to stampede em over a cliff. Would that be considered a drive?
Tree stands are bad, water holes are bad, corn piles are bad but the worst is something that will shock you.
People wait until its mating season for elk. Then they mimic the sounds of rival bulls and receptive cows. The elk, unable to fight the instinctive urge to mate, walk right into the waiting hunters ambush. Then the hunters purposely use primitive projectiles to mortally wound the elk.
EF, we're running an online special today for 50% off on a sense of humor.
Might want to pick up two, one for a spare in case you lose it.
Oh, and I bet you hunt out of those engineered, technically-advanced treestands because your woodsmanship is lacking. Right?
Personally I construct my treestands from self-sawn lumber and whittled wood dowels... non-motorized hand saw of course. I'm traditional that way, thus I'm probably ethical. Can I get a judgment from the LW panel?
Treestands pretty-much only significantly reduce one of your target animal's senses, unless your hunting the stratosphere. The 'ol HECS suit eliminates all nine.
Native Americans used cliffs to maim or kill their prey via driving (it) over the edge. Savages.
And they drive a damn 4 wheel drive truck up the mountain! Lazy sob's.
I'm obviously so unethical I can't live with myself. Think I'll just open a vein and bleed out. I will use a stone knife though.
I don't see why not. Yes, they do tend to provide a hunter with an advantage to someone on the ground for SOME animal species. A lot safer than climbing up a tree and standing on tree limbs.
Every time I shoot an elk out of my treestand I ask forgiveness for being unethical. I feel so ashamed.
Lol. So good. t-roy actually made me laugh the most because he sniped the other thread before it got started.
Yes, they are ! That's why I quit using treestands. Well that, and they scare the hell out of me........
Don't even get me started on making sounds and pretending to be a smoking hot doe babe when all a buck wants is to make some love after he hasn't got any for 11 months! How is that even fair?
I feel harassed when a bull elk comes to my cow call. He must think I'm easy or somethin!
I maintain over 60 stands and several ground blinds all within a few miles of my house. i assure I am not fat or lazy. My buddy who is 20 years younger has a hell of time keeping up when we do stands. I myself do not like baiting animals but have no problem with someone who does and where it is legal. Kansas and places like that state should ban it, deer are easier to figure out in some of those prairie states. Now go to the jungle like terrain in South Carolina, those folks actually have a reason to use bait. Scooby
Shouldn't be able to shoot bucks and bulls in the rut either. No fair.
Does coming in from above in mountainous terrain make it unethical?
Other than obeying the spirit and intent of the law, the only ethical thing anyone can do as a hunter is become as proficient as humanly possible with your weapon of choice, and to ONLY take shots that are within your personal effective range and you are 100% sure you will make.
Everything else is egos and inferiority complexes.
I think it was Joe Bell wrote some articles about how we take pretty much every aid we can in order to kill animals. I believe he questioned whether we were hunting or had just become shooters. There is little doubt that archery has become much easier since the compound, sights, rangefinders, and tree stands became the norm.
You have to figure out what is okay with you, not me. I killed one elk out of a tree and maybe a half dozen deer. Have a popup blind but have never taken anything from it and haven't set it up in years.
When I killed the bull and the deer from tree stands, it just seemed like all I had done was make a shot. Not very satisfying. I really enjoy trying to sneak up on animals and can live with my fairly low success rate.
If I ever go back to Africa, I would rather shoot animals with a rifle while roaming than sit in a blind again. One is hunting, the other is shooting.
native Americans used tree's to ambush prey - just continuing the legacy
A friend of mine said his ex wife pushed him over the edge.
Not sure if she was native American, though.
I guess it's ok for the eagles and the owls to hunt from trees
But if I do it.....:)
Clark Gallup told me that you can kill a deer out of tree stand with a paint can but if you want to hunt them get on the ground.
Sitting in a treestand with a Rage on your arrow smoking a little weed. You're headed straight to hell for sure.
Tree stands in those fancy hybrid GMO trees! Now that's cheatn!
Just because Indians did it doesn't make it right. They kept slaves, kidnapped children and women, tortured people for entertainment.
Last time I kidnapped a woman it was frowned upon... I tried the "Indians did it" defense, but that didn't fly.
Yeah....it didn't work for me either when I tried to run that herd of deer off a cliff.
"If Fred Bear was a "real" hunter he'd have killed that tiger off the ground, without beaters driving it to him..."
I just watched this a few months back! If you did that nowadays, Bowsite servers would explode.
How do we know native Americans used trees to ambush their prey?
Who here is that old to know that?
I need whatever edge I can get Lou!
I never have used a tree stand nor bait nor a feeder ect.
I just feel more mano-a-mano with the animal I am bow hunting.
Good luck, Robb
Wow,we take ourselves way too seriously. I think the point was made quite well that we humans lack the speed and endurance to kill game animals on their terms. Since we can't outrun em and wear them down we do the logical thing. We hide and wait patiently. We use tools to extend our range. My ethics state that we do not kill an animal unless that animal is used after it is killed. Food or clothing seems like a legitimate use for an animal.
I hate to go out on a limb on the issue.
Mountain lions hunt from above. Are they unethical? In fact, they should file down their canines and trim their nails. Totally unfair.
I hunted from a beanstalk once .
When the huntin' got slow I climbed to the top...........You wouldn't believe what's goin' on up there!!!!!!
I don't usually post on these type threads. If your going to bad mouth Fred Bear by god im drawing a line in the sand . Blasphomey. LOL
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." -Fred Bear
Funny how some people take themselves so seriously they can't tell when their chain is being yanked - hard....
Not sure how ethical this one is... A guy could literally sit up there all day long and not have to climb down to take care of business! Probably better scent control than Scent Blocker clothing. Now, wrap that can with HECS material and it would truly be UNETHICAL!
Even found me one for hunting wide open spaces with no trees to hang a stand...
If the critters don't come to you, drive your treestand to the critters! Heck, I bet folks would pay good money for a ride in a stand like this!
I use a longbow out of a treestand sometimes so I guess that makes it even!
This morning I went out turkey hunting. In a parking area to the entry of state trust land some A-hole took a dump, in the parking area. Left a big pile in the open and the wiping paper. WTF is wrong with people? What an unethical piece of shat!
PECO, at least he did it in a parking lot. Many years ago I was hunting in an old permanent treestand (Treeestand! I know!!!) on public land. Had been there for over 10 years and I hadn't seen anyone hunt it all season. Before light I see a flashlight bobbing through the woods, a guy comes up below me and shines the light up. Seeing me, he put down the light and started rustling around in his pack behind me.
It was dark and it was a big tree. I couldn't really see what was going on. After a few minutes he wandered off. When I climbed down I found a big dump with toilet paper right there below the stand. Nice guy.
Thanks for this thread Jaquomo - it's funny! Given my success record in a treestand or otherwise, Ill say that they are of no help what so ever :)
I figure if you're wearing more than a loin cloth, leather sandals and don't use an AtlAtl, you're just cheating!!
Too bad ya didn't see what he was doin' Lou...... could have tested that "it doesn't matter if you pee out of your stand" theory......
I wish you unethical types would take your stands off of public ground at season's end. It's illegal, unsafe, and it damages trees when left for years on end. I've found four ladder stands just in the last two weeks while hunting mushrooms. Three of them are grown into the trees and the ratchet straps are rotted off and laying on the ground. It would require considerable effort now to do safely, but I'm debating removing them myself.
Jeff, do you know the laws and rules of all state, provincial, and federal land everywhere? Just saying, being incorrect on calling this activity illegal would not really help your cause, if in fact there are no rules against doing so in some places.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your complaint. The public land I hunt most has now changed the rules to eliminate placement of unattended stands. I find new ones every year it seems. When they did allow permanently attached stands, I used them and I removed them right at the end of season. However, most were left up year long, and it was futile to even comment because there were so many. Thus they changed the rules, punishing those who actually did abide by the previous rules.
My cause? lol I'm just venting.
No, of course I don't know the regulations of all ground open to public hunting. Where I found these stands though, it's illegal to leave them there, and unidentified. It's also illegal to damage the trees as they've been.
Jeff, maybe get a few buddies together and have a "cleanup day"? They would be considered litter by law (or in some states, "abandoned property"), and you guys would end up with a bunch of stands to use elsewhere.
I bet the practice of leaving them in those woods would slow down after that. Just a thought.
As long as one is hunting with-in the rules/laws of the state they are hunting in, who care's what the elitists think! That's why we make/follow the rules and laws, those are already based on ethical values for us.
Are treestands ethical??? Depends what your definition of ethics is. If a survey was conducted honestly, you would find the clean kill ratio would be in favor of the treestand hunters. A close relaxed animal is the shot opportunity ethical hunters strive for. Having hunted all methods for 50 years , I feel it is the most ethical when it can be used. The other advantage is that it doesn't run the animals out of the country the way other more aggressive methods do. Of course I'm biased some being 71 and having had a back operation and total hip replacement the last 6 months!! Look out this fall!
It's not really a question of ethics, but a question of challenge and degrees of fair chase. I wrote an article titled Fairer Chase that will be in the next Pope and Young issue of the Ethic in a couple of weeks. It's your hunt, your choice, your ethics, just recognise that body count or scores are not created equal as the don't measure the challenge the chase, and the ultimate value of the hunt resides within you, the bowhunter.
Excellent points, Todd. Your post made the most sense of any on this thread, which I started only for the discussion, not to make any judgment or prove a hypothesis either way (as opposed to the trail cam thread).
Some of us choose methods that will admittedly result in a lower "body count", for our own reasons. Others choose to maximize numbers killed and judge others if they don't "fill a tag" every time out. Still others will use any means necessary to take high-scoring animals, pushing the edge of legality and ethics.
For some strange reason, many bowhunters are compelled to discredit some and rub others' noses into it. I hear "Yeah, but..." all the time. "Yeah, but he shot it with a compound... shot it from a tree... shot it on private land... shot it over a pile of apples... shot it at 70 yards... got pics ahead of time on a camera..... shot it on a guided hunt..... it's smaller than mine..... he hunts where the animals are bigger.... he has a longer season.... he can shoot more than one..... has more time to hunt..... shot it over a food plot...... didn't call it in.... used a decoy..... used sights...... used a rangefinder...." whatever.
Bowhunters should not and cannot be judged against any other because every hunt and every hunter is different.
Aren't we all descendants from monkeys and they are masters of the tree tops. We can not fight evolution! To tree or not to tree is the question? Adam took a bite of the apple and look were that got us all. Are you a sinner or not when it comes to tree stand? When you try to enter Heaven through the pearly gates, you will be asked. BE CAREFUL OF YOUR REPLY.
what ever is legal is fine with me. Since I started bowhunting in 1956 I have seen bowhunters evolve in so many ways.. I shot 38 animals with traditional b/4 compounds came about & took over in the mid 70s. Most on the ground (Elk, Whitetail & Mule Deer & 1 hog). I do recall a couple Whitetails from about 7 feet up sitting on a board I tacked in a crotch of a tree & my 1st P&Y standing on the end of a big Oak that had blown over 8 feet off the ground amongst the branches. My 1st Bear from a BAKER about 12 feet up & with a Groves Spitfire recurve (mid 60s).. To me, a tree stands "biggest" advantage is "seeing", not how high you get.. my ladders, now are 15 footers + I have 1 12 footer & 2, 10s.. Yes, I Kill out of those 10 footers.. I have no problem hunting from the ground but I sure do like being up above the cover I need to see through.. Just 8 foot is all I need. To me, the "attractants" used (legally & Illegally ) to lure Deer or any game is the one we need to look at.. Regardless, we have a wide assortment of "legal tools" in todays hunting world & yes, someone will use "every" one..
