Contributors to this thread:
I think Kentucky needs to go to a point system for the Elk draw. I've been applying for twenty years and have never drawn any kind of tag. I know of people who have drawn multiple tags within their family. Several husband and wife combinations as well as individuals drawing more than once in the twenty year period. From what I read on Facebook after the latest drawing results many people are fed up with the rigged system. If the Western states can keep track of individuals points for applying then Kentucky should be able to do the same also. Just my opinion but I would like to hear what others think about it.
Im in the same boat, been applying every year and nothing. I think the idea is that the lottery makes it fair across the board where a point system could mean zero chance for some. But i do feel like after so many failed attempts you should have a higher chance than someone applying for the first time.
Points won't help much when there are hundreds of applicants for every one tag. I apply but don't sweat it much one way or another. I guess it's the potential "cool" factor of shooting an elk in Kentucky keeps me spending the 20.00 per year for an extremely tiny chance to draw. No sense in getting to worked up about the failure to draw KY, since I know the easy alternative every year is to drive out west and hunt elk, with multiple states to choose from.
Well I got up this morning and saw on Facebook that the draw was out.
We'll a big zero for me.
As for points. I think that with not having units that only take 1 or 2 points to draw like Co. (I know that KY points would be for the number of times in draw.) I believe that after a few years if they gave out points that folks that didn't have any points would not put in for the draw.. Feeling they have no chance.
As the way it is now it's an equal chance for everyone all the time. I know that folks are not putting in for the PA elk draw like they did in the past. I hear it said that new comers feel that they have no chance against folk with say 5 points.
KY makes it money from the number of folks putting in for the draw, not from the money from the tags. If they had points I believe that after a few years the number of folks putting in would drop off. Good for the ones putting in, but bad for KY dow trying to make money.
Fakebook is the answer! Everything is supply and demand. Demand seems high for this opportunity and supply is regulated by biologists. You can hunt Colorado elk every year. Good luck! C
As a KY resident, I have never been drawn. I put in for the Bull tags only. I hope I get to hunt elk in KY once in my lifetime.
i quit applying several years ago. the overwhelming majority of elk are on private land if you check the harvest statistics. the odds are horrible to draw a tag and almost as bad to kill a good bull on public. why go through all of that when you can hunt elk every year in a really good place in the west.
The odds are terrible, though I'm not a point fan I think a tiered system of sort would be a nice addition. Something simple like after 10yrs your odds double, after 20yrs your odds triple.. etc. Still random but a slight edge.
I live in KY and have applied for 20 years, since it started, and never been drawn. I know a guy that has been applying for 9 years and this year was his third time getting drawn. I guess he's real lucky and my luck sucks. Kinda frustrating but good for him..
Michigan has a point system for our elk hunt. It's not perfect but I like it better than having nothing. You get a Point every time you apply and don't get a tag. Each POINT means your name goes into next years drawing once for every point you have. I currently have 10 points.... but I should have a few more because I forgot to apply for a few years. A person could draw a tag the first time he ever applies..... but I have better odds of getting drawn because my name goes in the hat 10 times. If you get drawn for a bull tag.... You can never get a tag again in your life. If you get a cow only tag.... you can't apply again for 10 years.
the most fair would be to keep it random but make it "once in a lifetime" so those who draw are out.
I think that a person should be rewarded for applying year after year... I like our system.... Yet someone can draw a tag the first time they apply.
Well, I've been putting in for the Ky elk draw every year and I finally won a draw. I got the Archery Bull Elk tag. Now I will need help. I won't know for a while what unit I have.
Pretty simple math. Say there are 10 tags...sounds like quite a few people have been putting in since they started the drawing. For basic math let's say it's 1000. If it's a simple "most points win" like Colorado, it would take 100 years to get through the max people. So what's the point of drawing unless you're max. Kentucky loses on application fees and everyone that wasn't old enough or didn't live in Kentucky or started hunting after year 1 has no chance. A weighted system might help but in the end I see no issues with the current system. I do think when the tags are so limited it should be a once in a lifetime or every 10 year draw.
Yup another donation by me this year. Someday............maybe?
They discussed the elk in KY on KY Afield, a weekly hunting show, and said that there were 191 people that had put in for all 20 years and 59 of them had been drawn at least once. That means that including myself, there are 131 unlucky elk hunters that keep donating each year. Maybe they should give us a hat or shirt for being consistent.
Kyrob how many elk tags are given out each year?
When there are more applicants than tags, some people will have to go without. That's just a simple fact. A point system doesn't fix that. It just rewards the generation of people who get in at the beginning of the system at the expense of the next generation.
They drew 700 this year plus 10 youth tags. Last year they drew 1000 I believe.
I disagree Idyllwild.... our weighted point system doesn't discriminate against the younger generation. Any person that applies for the first time can get drawn for a tag. I talked a buddy at work into going into the store and applying for elk a few years back. It was his first time applying.... and a was sitting on several points. He drew a tag.
Typo. I was sitting on several points at the time. With 10 points now each one of my 10 chances has the exact same odds of getting drawn as someone with zero points.... but I have my name in the hat 10 times....
Wonder if the Bone Collector guys got drawn his year ??? LOL
Sure - anyone "can." Just like Power Ball. That's not the point. The point is that if you have 100 people and one tag, than there's a bunch of people who will go their entire lives without drawing which results in a disproportionate advantage for people who get into the draw the first year that the system is implemented.
To explain better, lets assume everyone starts applying when they're 20 years old and applies for 60 years. The people who get in on year number one will have better odds of drawing during their entire lifetime than anyone else in the future because they will have more points than anyone else till they stop applying at age 80. Meanwhile, every year that goes on after that, everyone else who enters the draw will have people (entered earlier) with better odds than them (entered later). They (everyone who starts on year 2 and after) will have better odds than everyone for only one year when they are 80 years old.
The way that the people (Class of year 1) get better odds their entire lives is at the expense of the odds of everyone who comes after them. Follow me here: The thing is, when the system's been around for 20 years and max points is 20, Class of year 1 have better odds than everyone if you get in on year 1. But on year 20, the guy who was born the year the system started, so obviously couldn't be in the draw because he wasn't alive, now starts applying. When he (Class of year 20) gets to 20 points (the year Class of year 40 starts applying), does he have the odds that the first guy had when he had 20 points? No, because that guy has 40 points now. So he still has better odds. But Class of year 20 will never have those kinds of odds, no matter, not until year 60, for one year, will he have the best odds - meanwhile, Class of year 1 has the best odds anyone will ever have, ever. And that will never be reproduced.
And so it continues: Every year, even though he gets another point, his points will never hold the same odds as everyone who had the same points as he has now. He doesn't have an advantage over everyone else till his very last year applying when he's 80, while the people who got in first, had better odds of drawing their entire lives. And they had these better odds at the expense of everyone who came after them.
This is why these draws are a Ponzi Scheme when you have any kind of tag that is high enough demand where the vast majority of the people who apply for them will never draw the tag. The point system, whether it be bonus point or preference point, will result in the people that get in year one, having better odds for their lifetime than anyone will ever have again - and at the expense of everyone who comes after them.
A good example of this Ponzi Scheme and how it's screwing the next generation of hunters, is the DBHS tags in California. We have about 15-20 tags yearly. There's several thousand people who apply for them every year. 3/4 of the tags go to max points holders. 1/4 go into a random draw.
The thing is, with how many people there are applying, the tags awarded will NEVER cut into the max point pool with any substantial depth. Your odds if you have max points, yearly, are around 1 in 100 of drawing. Your odds of drawing if you are max -1 all the way down to zero (since you're all in the random pool) is about 1 in 700 in drawing. And it'll be like that until every last one of those max point holders die or drop out, because they will never all get tags - they'd have to live to 150 years old to all get tags.
So if a guy gets into the draw when he's 40 years old, he'll have 1 in 700 odds his entire life, whereas the people who got in year 1 will have 1 in 100 odds their entire life. 100 years from now, everyone gets 1 in 700 odds their entire lives, except for the very old who started very young. Meanwhile, that first generation had better odds their entire lives at the expense of the generation after them.
It's complete BS. The guys who got in year one love it and defend it, but it's complete BS.
All the non-lottery state draws, while not as egregious as the above listed example, have the same problem with their highly coveted tags. Read my prior post: If it takes less than 5-10 points to draw and there is very slow point creep, as in, less than a point for every 5 or more years, then the system works. Otherwise, it just turns into a Ponzi Scheme.
I'm sorry but I'll just have to agree to disagree. I feel that the 50 or 60 year old hunter who has faithfully applied and SPENT MONEY to do so over the years... should be rewarded with higher odds of drawing a tag. My uncles both have the maximum points available since the inception of our weighted system.... I think that is 14 or 15 points. I have 10. But my uncles grandson (my cousins boy)..... drew a tag. I think he was about 18 when he drew.... I'm not sure if he had any points going in.... but the point is he still had a chance.... and drew.
Keep it random. It is the best and most fair way. Because of points systems my only chance to hunt WY moose would be to pull a random tag. I could put in for years and never catch up with the guys that have max points. Good for those that have them but a young kid starting to build points will never catch up.
I think some of you guys don't understand out weighted system. Each one of my 10 chances has the exact same odds of getting drawn as someone's chance who applies for the first time. The guys with max points don't automatically get all the tags. Think of it like the Lotto..... everyone gets to buy a single lotto ticket. Each year that goes by I get an extra Lotto ticket. But no matter how many tickets I get..... each one of my tickets has the exact same odds as someone who gets one ticket. It only takes one to win.
" I feel that the 50 or 60 year old hunter who has faithfully applied and SPENT MONEY to do so over the years... should be rewarded with higher odds of drawing a tag."
I agree with that. There's a way to do it. And that's with a BP system where you only get one extra ticket in the hat for every year applied, not squaring points. Or like how Maine does moose, minus the extra 10 packs.
PP systems, AZ's system, and NV's system where points are squared are Ponzi schemes and/or broken systems where the tags are few and the applicants many.
That's how our elk lottery is done. It's not perfect but I like it better than no weighted system at all. The bottom line is that no matter how you do it.... you won't please everyone......
About like my many years of buying 10 tags for Maine Moose.
I'll keep applying because its cheap enough.
8 years in to loaning the state of Colorado around a grand for a few months for Elk, Muley and every other year Pronghorn points. Hopefully when I decide to go for tags I'll get them.
It's a lottery, plain and simple. Why should your powerball ticket have better odds than mine?
My power ball ticket doesn't have better odds than yours..... I just get to buy more power ball tickets with each passing year that I don't get drawn....... LOL.
The older generation sure likes to throw the younger generations under the bus when it comes to hunting. Who cares about the kids when I can increase MY chances of drawing a tag.
I can't help but just drop my jaw and shake my head at the selfishness. Pick any state with points out west and tell me it's a good idea...
Those who have been applying for many years should have increased odds of drawing a tag over a newbie applying the first time. Eventually the "newbie" will become the old fart with increased chances to draw.
My friends in Kentucky talk about how people with political connections seem to have very good luck in the elk draw and most do not feel it is by luck alone.
they way I see NH Moose and KY elk, is, I am donating money to managing a resource. I donate what I can afford. What I receive in return is " 1) the chance to dream 2) The satisfaction of knowing I have contributed to the survival of the species and the survival of hunting the species.
Any point system started in this day and age probably won't help you much. Remember it's not just YOU that will have more points, it's everybody who gets in on the ground floor. Consider Wyoming elk as an example. All of us who got in when it started in 2005 still have about the same odds to draw the highest demand tags, as we did when the point system started the first year. That's because there are still over 2000 NR's with max points, 12 years in, competing for a handful of tags each year. And the people who missed getting in the first year are pretty much SOL for the next several decades. Same is true with bonus point systems, in that EVERYONE who gets in on the ground floor and stays in the game, has the same odds thenceforth, as everyone else who got in the first year. In reality your odds may even get worse, if the inception of a point system grabs the attention of more people who otherwise might not have participated.
At one time, a long time ago, point systems were useful planning tools. Now demand for quality hunts drastically exceeds the supply. Yet all the app services keep pushing apply apply apply, because that's how they make their money. And the point systems are continued by the state game depts as an easy revenue stream. Get us hooked and keep us coming back each year to spend that money on that dream!
Sticksender nailed it. Anyone who supports starting a point system in this day and age clearly has their head stuck in the sand. To hell with the future generations as long as I have a perceived better chance of drawing....
Its called a lottery. I cannot comprehend why some feel entitled to winning after x number of tries. Say no to point systems, they should all be random.
I used to put in every year as a non-resident. This past year, I decided that the odds weren't worth the cost; especially when I deer and turkey hunt the same area as the elk. I would rather spend a few more hundred dollars on gas and hunt elk in the west. I just prefer the terrain and habitat of the Rocky Mountains.
buzz,
$10 of gas doesn't take you very far. Why not keep putting in? It literally is pennies in the couch money. Spend the $10 and keep heading west every fall. Win-win.
Sounds like there could be some home-cookin' going on with the "draw"..........
The youth aren't getting thrown under any bus here in Michigan.... on the contrary..... There is the early youth deer season and mentored youth program where a youth can shoot any deer anywhere even in areas where does are off limits to adults. Youths can be eligible to have draw tags transfered to them from adults.... and I have given 2 personal examples where people drew elk tags here on their first try..... I'm sure it happens every year that some of those drawn had zero points. In a weighted system you do not need to have max points to have a chance to win. I'm with Ollie.... the guys that have spent the money for 20 years of faithfully applying should get some advantage.... but not a guarantee of drawing.
And when the old timers still aren't drawing the tags they're "entitled to" with the bonus point system, they'll go in and change it to either a squared bonus point system or a preference point system. Like I said, all one needs to do is look west to see that the point systems just don't work. They create an entitlement attitude and eventually the younger generations get screwed. Those who ignore history....
I don't see where any "old timer" has stated that they are "entitled to" draw a limited tag. Those who have been playing the game the longest should have increased odds of drawing. No youngster is getting "screwed" by the process...unless YOU have an entitlement mentality.
Exactly Ollie !!! I believe in mentoring our youth and getting them into hunting and fishing..... but I also believe in honoring the guys and gals that have been there hunting and fishing the longest .... I don't think that giving them an increased chance of drawing a tag is a bad thing. Not a guarantee..... an increased chance. I'm out of this discussion. Neither side will change any opinions and like I said.... you can't please everyone no matter how you do it. I sure won't feel ashamed if I draw an elk tag this year but I certainly don't expect to. We find out next month.
I always hear about how these prominent people seem to draw tags but I don't believe it. Prominent people get tags but KY has landowner tags for elk. If you own so many acres with elk, you get tag(s). They sell them ....which is how Michael Waddell got his. Where there is cash there is a way.
I have been putting in for elk here in Oklahoma since 1993. Never been drawn. Albeit, they don't give out a lot of tags (60 bulls and 140 cow) and there's a BUNCH of people who put in for it, including NR's. There were 10,567 hunters that put in last year, just for the bull tags. Good thing about Oklahoma's system is it's a "once in a lifetime" tag. The state also started a preference point system in 1996, which means you get your name in the hat an extra time, every year. Maybe one day... :)
Question for the KY elk hunt... can you use any legal weapon? Oklahoma it is Rifle only.
Obviously this topic is a lot more global than Kentucky. As can be seen, there are as many opinions about what is "fair" as there are systems for allocating tags (far more opinions in fact). Bottom line, when there is a scarce resource, there are going to be (a LOT) more have-nots than haves, which leads to discontent. IMO, a few concepts: 1) If s State sticks with a firm "the most points gets the tag" system and no lower points opportunities, people will drop out of the system. AZ realized it that and now has a combi most points/random draw system. Many states either have or seem to be going to some version of 'everyone has a (terrible) chance' system, recognizing that the 75% percent (or more) contributions out-of-state hunters make to F&G Departments' budgets cannot be easily replaced in-state. 2) Asking for $150 plus dollars from out-of-state hunters to have a chance for very low odds hunts is exorbitant. Anteing up that kind of dough in state after state is a tough decision for those who don't have a lot of dough to throw away, typically younger hunters. But as long as we volunteer to pay the ante to get a chance, I don't see that changing. 3) Left more-or-less unsaid is the general philosophy that gouging out-of-state hunters is ok. Coming from a State (Cali) that gouges in-state hunters too doesn't make it better. When I was young and poor and living in a gouge out-of-stater state, it seem reasonable. I had time, they had the dime, it worked out about the same. 4) As long as the ante-up is relatively cheap (e.g., Kentucky, Maine), who cares about ridiculous odds, unless some folks appear to have an inside track. Cue Dylan's "Lucky that Way" - we know in the real world odds are odds for drawing multiple times in an honest such system would be bucking money lottery odds. The system is probably rigged (but somebody said that and actually won - wow). Is a State with kings animals any better - surprise surprise the little guy still gets the shaft. 5) In long-shot odds states, it would be fairer if moonshot tags would be a once-in-a-lifetime affair. In other words, get your tag, have a GREAT hunt, give us a good writeup with location details, after all you won't be back - and go back to the opportunity or meat hunt pool.
By the end of this drawing season, I will have applied for dozens of tags in various states and would bet serious coin that I'll end up with the same old in-state meat hunt and a 100% draw, low-success out-of-state hunt. Such is life - it could be a hell of a lot worse.
I didnt read thru all the posts above, but there is an easy way to 'fix' people drawing multiple times and that is to make it OIL tag.
Draw once and your done
And yes, a Pref Point system is definitely not a 'cure-all'
Rick,
I suspect you can always use the lesser weapon. Meaning if you draw a bull rifle tag, you can use your bow. At least that is the law for deer hunting in KY. Bow
Bowfreak,
"buzz,
$10 of gas doesn't take you very far. Why not keep putting in? It literally is pennies in the couch money. Spend the $10 and keep heading west every fall. Win-win."
When you put it like that it really makes me feel like a tightwad with my money. :) For just a $10 draw, my excuses are pretty petty.
Just be glad KY does their draw in May.... KS likes to wait until Mid / End of August. Which means when / if I do ever draw its gonna make for a rodeo of planning considering my other hunts have been planned months in advance. They give you like 2 freaking weeks to plan a hunt before the season opens.
Agree with the last couple posts. If the demand to availability ratio is such that some people will go without for their entire lives, then the tags should be OIL. And real OIL, not "OIL, but you can apply again in 7 years." CA sheep are like this. You get a tag and then you're done. IMO, pretty much every sheep outside of AK should be like this. It won't solve much though. It'll only take a few people out of the draw. The problem remains that there are still a lot of tags that some people will go without so, it only makes sense to divvy them out in the fairest way possible.
williamtell does bring up another good related point about the costs. As the odds go down, the prices get rather ridiculous. It's $200/yr to apply in AZ for 4 species. If you're going for the highest end tags only, there's a damn good chance that in 20 years, you'll have dropped $4000 on apps and never draw a single tag and not have one in sight. Same thing in Nevada.
You can lower your expectations in AZ for all species but sheep and hunt, hunt LE deer every couple years, hunt elk every 8-10 years, and have a reasonable PH hunt every so often, but you're still talking $2000 in apps for a few hunts.
I'm willing to pay it. But I think it's BS. There is a threshold though. I dropped out of WA sheep/moose. It's $120 per specie out the door for a NR. And for crappy odds. It's ridiculous. I can afford it, but won't apply for it out of principle. Same for AZ bison. The tag price is ridiculous. I really want to hunt free-range bison, but I won't apply for the tag out of principle.
I guess that I am one of the old guys so here is a little history lesson. When I started hunting for elk all tags in CO, AZ and NM were OTC counter. When each State went to a draw I doubt that they ever thought that it would take 20 some years to draw some tags and that there would be the point creep we have today. I also doubt that they planned on financing their budgets with NR licenses and application fees. CO seemed to be the fairest because everyone could just wait their turn. Unfortunately everyone did not get a turn. A lot of hunters have paid in to get their turn and it is understandable that they do not want to do away with a system that they have invested so many years into. My days of climbing mountains are coming to an end. I will never draw a number of the tags that I have been pursuing for years with the sheep tags topping that list. I do feel like a fool for staying in for so long once it became obvious that I had little chance of drawing but as some stated above I was already hooked. However I have drawn some great tags and I feel fortunate to have hunted at the time I did and to have drawn some good tags. When I show young hunters some of the animals that I have been fortunate enough to kill and they asked me how to start I am sadden that there are no good answers if they want trophy animals. I have seen tags go from OTC to all but unobtainable unless you have lots of money and/or are very lucky. Like a lot of you I spend thousands on license and application fees with the odds getting worse all the time and with costs going up. Unless there is a signification drops in hunters the odds will not change and no system will allow the young hunters a reasonable chance of drawing an elk tags in an area that is managed for mature bulls. I realize that a lot of what is typed by others above comes from frustration which I certainly share. I also agree that a number of States now finance they programs with NR licenses and fees from individuals that on average with never draw the tag. They continue to became creative in charging license fees, application fees, point fees, habitat fees, predation fees etc. just to apply which puts application costs out of reach for some and make the cost for the slim odds unreasonable to others. Plus a lot of States have taken away NR tags. UT now has so many auction type tags that came from NR qoutas, CO has landowner tags and cut NR tags in hard to draw units, NM has reduced NR allocations from I think 22% to 6% and all but eliminated NR sheep tags. With less tags and slimmer odds hunters apply for tags in more states making the odds even worse. IMO there are no great solutions and what is fair is often a matter of option. There are still great tags that some will draw and the more money you have the more opportunities you can give yourself which may not be fair.
In 2015 I drew a WY MT goat tag. One of 8 NR tags. I won the lottery. Being that it was in a wilderness area I had to hire an outfitter. I think that the tag was $2,155 and add on the outfitter fees I could have just booked a hunt in Canadian for about the same costs and I could have planned it better. Now I enjoyed the hunt and it was worth it to me but it may have been out of financial reach for many. In conclusion all I can say is make the best out of the situation and hunt where you can. I wish that I would have done more of that 40 years ago and I am glad that I did some. It will continue to change. Caribou hunting in Canadian use to be very affordable and now it is almost nonexistent.
buzz,
I think we are all tight wads at least with something in our lives. Many of us blow tons of money on tags and equipment but buy $20 sneakers.
One more post then I'll leave this alone. The Michigan elk drawing can't really be compared to western states. Only Michigan residents can apply for Michigan elk. Our herd is only about 500-900 animals....It looks like they are issuing 200 tags this year. Any youth ages 10-16 can get a tag transferred to them by anyone who successfully draws a tag. It only costs $5 to get into the drawing. So if you have a son or daughter that you want to get an elk tag.... it is perfectly legal for all his or her grandparents, aunts uncles cousins or Anyone to put in for a tag..... and if they draw a tag..... transfer it to that 10-16 year old youth. This to me doesn't sound like a system that discriminates against young hunters.
Doesn't help anyone who takes up hunting at age 18+. There's a lot of us. We need to recruit more than just our sons and daughters.
How have so many of you put in for tags for 20 years when the first season didn't start until 2001?
http://fw.ky.gov/Hunt/Documents/20152016ElkReport.pdf
OMG.... Like I said...you will never please everyone.
Funny how many people who have been putting in forever remind me a lot of the millenials I work with. If we could figure out how to give participation trophies for not drawing they'd probably be happy.
They released them in 98 and I guess we were adding from there. They mentioned 20 on the show as well. Anyway, thanks Kelly for pointing that out. I don't feel as bad now knowing that I have only been trying for 16 years to get drawn instead of the 20.
The KET program and Kentucky Fish and Wildlife even advertised 20 year anniversary of Elk hunting in Kentucky. I have putting in so long I don't remember the first year I applied. You can't tell me it's not rigged when you watched the names and see multiple couples (man and wife) getting drawn. OIL is the only way to make it more fair. The money is not an issue. I would put in for a tag if it was $50.00 each. I'm all for helping our wildlife organizations. I put in for tags out West, WY, UT and that's a long wait also. At sixty eight years old I don't know how much longer I'll be able to make a hunt but I'll keep trying anyway.
