Steep Angles and Shooting Form
Elk
There isn't a lot out there to research how to properly shoot angles and more importantly, proper shooting form in the field. We all practice from standing all summer long but the mountain hunting shots seldom give you this perfect set-up.
Let's start with angles. We all have the rangefinders that calculate the arc for us. Line of sight is totally different and should mostly be ignored. Does anyone have any tips on how they shoot better on angled shots? I will be hunting steep, rocky terrain this fall and may have a very nasty angled shot. What tips do you have for this?
Second, shooting from a proper prone position with a rifle makes for an easy shooting scenario in the field that is almost as solid as a bench. A little practice here and a 600+ yard shot is feasible with a good shooting system. That being said, what shooting form do you use in the field for longer shots when standing flat-footed is out of the question? If someone has demonstration pictures, please attach. I've been practicing quite a bit and the wind definitely makes it challenging. Shooting from the knees in a 20+ mph wind is a little easier due to not flapping like a flag standing flat-footed.
Also, does anyone notice a difference when shooting in higher elevation? I do some long-range rifle shooting and elevation does affect drop (of course we are talking over 500 yards). Is this any concern for someone who may take a 60-70 yard shot high in the mountains?
I'm anxious to hear everyone's input and possible practice ideas going into the summer. Thanks!
Practice it bro...and its not an issue.
Bend at the waist on uphill/downhill and its no big deal.
What Beendare said! Practice uphill/downhill shots. Practice awkward shots. Practice any possible shot you think you might encounter in the field.
If you haven't practiced and gained confidence in a shot, that's a shot you probably shouldn't take.
Read the last line. Of course I'm going to practice.
Practice doesn't make perfect. Practicing perfect makes perfect.
At the expense of lost arrows and developing bad shooting form habits, I'm hoping to receive better advice on here than the obvious bending at the waist and practicing.
The link above is the only decent material demonstrating field shooting form. I'd appreciate it if someone would elaborate more on this topic, please. I'm hoping for a couple of nuggets that people have used to improve their field accuracy.
Bending to maintain the proper "T" form is critical. HOWEVER it gets harder to do as the shot gets steeper.
Simply put, you have to try it to learn what you do. Everyone is different. My wife and I will, and have, shot the same steep shot for the same yardage and missed in opposite directions, one high, one low, it's consistent.
You have to try it.
One tip someone gave me once, which didn't work for me was draw the bow already angled down (up is dangerous) rather than drawing level then bending. Didn't work for me, but this person swore by it and it worked for them.
kscowboy, you probably don't want to hear this but the thing that improved my field accuracy IS practice and only practice. Practice shooting uphill, downhill, sidehill, kneeling, squatting, twisting, etc. I can tell you whatever the hell I want about form, grip, etc but you aren't going to understand what those things do to POI in different positions until you PRACTICE those shots. Hopefully you've already developed good grip, form, and anchor shooting on flat surfaces. You want to insure you are maintaining that by bending/twisting correctly to maintain that posture and form based upon positioning for your shot in the given circumstance. The only way to figure out how to do that is to find some hilly terrain where you can practice those shots. I have an area I go to and I bring a long a little rhinehart ball type target with a handle you throw and then shoot it at all manner of angles. Fun and good practice up and downhill, etc to help understand how your position in relation to terrain impacts your shooting.
Advise. 1. when shooting normal on a flat plain, the 90 degree angle between the body and the extended bow arm is advised and practiced for good form and consistent shooting.
2. Maintaining that 90 degree angle is also important when shooting up or down hill with a moderate or even a steep angle. Much like shooting out of a tree stand at a downward angle.
3. The advise above about bending at the waist is valid, as doing so, it does maintain the 90 degree angle. Bend back somewhat when shooting up hill.
Plain and simple. The hard part is remembering to do so.
my best, Paul
Some bend, some don't, watch the Pro Archery Series.
https://vimeo.com/proarchery
Thank you, Wapitibob! Exactly what I was looking for. Paul, your wisdom is always appreciated. Keep it coming.
If you don't have the terrain to practice hang a treestand and shoot out of it as well as put your target in it to shoot from the ground up.
Find a somebody with a Barn or get a tree stand and set the target close to the steps and practice, then put the target in the treestand and shoot it from the ground. And pretty much like was said, bend at the waist, don't drop or raise your arm, shoot the yardage you ranged and practice. There's lots of YouTube videos on archery form you can check out too.
You'll want to shorten your draw length/loop also if you're shooting a lot of uphill. Downhill, leave it the same as flat ground.
Yup. I've shot at 29, 29.5, and 30 inches at various times and my angled shot accuracy took a hit at 30 inches, so I'm back at 29.5
Noted what Bob H stated. Draw properly first like shooting on a flat, ie, the T stance, and then bend while maintaining the 90 degree body to bow arm angle. Works for me so you might give it a try. my best, Paul
Cowboy,.....it truly is as simple as bending at the waist and practicing it.....I wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers
I try to use the proper form while drawing. That is; bend at the waist, concentrate on where I want to hit, and draw while pointing at the target. On any shot, when you hit your anchor, you should be close to on target. If it is difficult for you to draw that way, your likely pulling more weight than you can handle comfortably. Other than that, don't try to shoot at game at such long distance. I've never been tempted to shoot more than 50 yards, and that far only rarely.
It's all about proper form
It's all about proper form
For really steep cliff hanger shots!!!!
Thanks Wapitibob..it's in Wales and it's raining..no shock there...and there's people I have actually met!!
Having a rangefinder can also be a true asset. Not all steep angled shots are from a treestand. In this video clip I'm shooting at a pretty steep angle. We called the bull from a couple hundred yards away. As I see him down below making his way through the brush in my direction it looks like he's going to pass by a stump, the stump appeared to be 35-40 yards away from me. I had a bit of time as the bull made his way up so I ranged it, it was only 25 yards because of the steeper angle. If not for the rangefinder I most likely would have shot right over him. Instead I double lung him & he goes 125 yards & crashes!
ElkNut1
Cool Video EN1!!! Thanks for sharing!
I agree on the rangefinder. I got the new Sig Kilo 2000 this year. As I stated earlier, I do a fair bit of long range rifle shooting. My Dall Sheep in AK was 42 yard "closer" than the line of sight indicated. If I didn't have this technology at that range, I likely wouldn't have a white ram on the wall.
We have a nice 3D course here in the Gunnison Valley but it doesn't open until the lifts open June 10th. I already went ahead and added 6 more arrows to my stash, as I will likely experience a few losses and breaks when I practice (after the new dumping of snow clears).
Assuming form is good right now and draw length shortened up enough (that's a big one that few seem to grasp)..... what Beendare and others said.... have to practice it, no real secrets. Maybe practice with someone else watching to make sure you're keeping the 90 that Paul referenced.
WRT to personal things, I've found a mental note to keep my elbow high (which tends to keep my shoulder high) on steep downhill, helps me bend my torso. If my elbow doesn't feel high I know I'm just dropping my bow arm. To bend at the torso those side/back muscles have to stretch. I find if my elbow gets low those muscles are holding position and not stretching.
I like kneeling shots, one one or both knees.... many stalks that's where you will be shooting from. But kneeling/sitting puts your bow close to the ground on downhill...... cost me a good elk once at what I though was a slam dunk. Lucky I didn't hit a hoof.....
Draw weight...... If you can sit butt flat on the ground facing your target and slowly smoothly draw...... you're ok with draw weight. If not..... i'd fix it one way or another. Could cost an animal. It's a good test for draw length as well. It's much harder if too long. Your draw should not rely on foot position for either leverage or length.
Practice all the shots.
"... If you can sit butt flat on the ground facing your target and slowly smoothly draw...."
You should also be able to let down slowly and smoothly, under complete control.
Paul is spot on as usual...
"Advise. 1. when shooting normal on a flat plain, the 90 degree angle between the body and the extended bow arm is advised and practiced for good form and consistent shooting. 2. Maintaining that 90 degree angle is also important when shooting up or down hill with a moderate or even a steep angle. Much like shooting out of a tree stand at a downward angle.
3. The advise above about bending at the waist is valid, as doing so, it does maintain the 90 degree angle. Bend back somewhat when shooting up hill.
Plain and simple. The hard part is remembering to do so.
my best, Paul "
Mark
ive been practicing steep uphill by placing a block target over 30 feet in a treetop with pullies at all sorts of distances on my property i put a piece of carpet back to back much larger than the block behind it to stop a missed target this practice has been tuning me up for our Colorado Elk hunt and TAC or Total Archery Challenge shoot Boyne Mountain Michigan at a ski resort in northern lower i have a question for all i own a older nikon range finder but doesnt have ARC should i buy one for elk hunting or should i just keep using my current one?
Range 23 yards. Horizontal distance 5 yards
Range 23 yards. Horizontal distance 5 yards
All said above is way of saying your anchor point needs to remain the same regardless of what you are shooting at. Up, down, flat, etc. The step of starting flat and then bending is the best way to keep your anchor point consistant. More of a problem for me is keeping the bow vertical. This is where a sight w/ a bubble is indispencable. (Screwed that spelling up, huh) Range finder without angle compensating or at least angle defining can be a problem. If nothing else it is one less thing you have to think about while perforating your next meal. If you are coming to Colorado, practice and be very proficient at 60 yards and never shoot over 40 yards. Good luck
Range 23 yards. Horizontal distance 5 yards
Range 23 yards. Horizontal distance 5 yards
All said above is way of saying your anchor point needs to remain the same regardless of what you are shooting at. Up, down, flat, etc. The step of starting flat and then bending is the best way to keep your anchor point consistant. More of a problem for me is keeping the bow vertical. This is where a sight w/ a bubble is indispencable. (Screwed that spelling up, huh) Range finder without angle compensating or at least angle defining can be a problem. If nothing else it is one less thing you have to think about while perforating your next meal. If you are coming to Colorado, practice and be very proficient at 60 yards and never shoot over 40 yards. Good luck
im practicing my heart out with gym time running backpacking and shooting so ill be ready as i can be........
Definitely have a Rangefinder with Angle compensation. Make sure it reads angles at unlimited distances. Some do not read angle until 99 yards or further out!
ElkNut1
I know a guy who's guide held him at the edge of a cliff by his belt while he drew shaking like a leaf on a ram taht was bedded many yards below at a steep angle. The rest is history....
Use your sight bubble.
Check the bubble when you settle into your anchor.
Check your bubble again before your trigger.
If your sight has 3rd axis adjustment, set it and confirm by shooting up and down hills.
A lot of good advice here. As you practice, you'll notice that some things really help you, other things not so much. When I practiced for my sheep bowhunts in 2008, I made a couple interesting observations about my shooting, as it pertained to accuracy. I was more accurate shooting downhill, than uphill. If I could stand sidehill, and have both feet at the same elevation, I was more accurate than if one foot was considerably higher than the other. I bought two large sheets of nine pound foam, and anchored one near the bottom of a 37 degree slope. Then I hiked up the slope and anchored a second foam sheet near the top of the slope. Then I'd hike up and down the slope for hours, with my backpack on, and a bow in my hand. When I heard a crow "Caw", I'd have to stop and shoot immediately....regardless of angle or distance, sometimes the shot was uphill, sometimes it was downhill. By practicing spontaneous, unpredicable shots, I never got into a rehearsed comfort zone..... More important than anything, is that type of practice taught me my strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes, it is as important to know your limitations as much as anything else....the difficult part is to be truly honest, and constructively critical of your abilities. On my third sheep hunt of the summer (Bighorn sheep in Colorado), I had a 170+" ram at 44 yards on a 60 degree uphill slope. I knew that I could not consistently make a lethal shot under those conditions because of my practice.....so I passed. I later killed a ram at 50 yards on a downhill shot.....because I knew from my practice, that I could make that shot. There is a lot to be said for practicing to the point where you are consistently shooting with confidence.....throughout the spectrum of archery distances.
That was a great post Jake, a lot to be learned from it.....I use a similar routine before hunting season though in the woods.
....its no wonder you creamed those sheep in such a sort time.
Bearhunter1 said it. Don't let your anchor change and you are good. Doesn't matter if you bend at the waist or not, if the anchor changes you are F'd. Keep it consistent and let it rip. I shot a mountain goat last year at 60 yards (54 with the cut) from my knees, kept the anchor solid and the shot went true.
bigbuckODY, I like the tree idea with the carpeting. I might have to use that one. So you just put two pieces back to back and it would catch the arrow?
I went and shot flat surfaces today at clays anywhere from 45 yards to 95 yards. It's amazing what these new bows and sights are capable of doing. I'm building confidence right now but really need to start getting an idea of how the angles work. I will be taking a target into the field this weekend and really getting a feel for it. I bought an additional 6 arrows, as I am sure to have a hiccup or two in the process.
I have the MBG adjustable sight and look at the bubble almost as much as I do my pins. It's becoming a very strict part of my shooting routine, as I need good habits that one doesn't think of when the pressure is on.
As far as my anchor is concerned, I shoot a kisser button. Always have and always will. Would this satisfy the anchor point consistency, CCOVEY?
Kisser with a peep or just a kisser? I shot a kisser with no peep for years and was able to keep it consistent but its not easy on steep angles. as long as you have a second form of an anchor point you should be good. For me it was a kisser and string to nose, same spot every stroke. I now shoot a peep, as its easier for me to me more consistent, especially on long shots.
Sorry for not being more specific. Kisser and peep.
Boy on those days when the crows weren't around, Jake just sat on the hill...halfway between the targets... and waited. I bet on some days he never launched an arrow! He just went home, grabbed his book and sat in the freezer.
heheheheheh..... you guys are classics..... Kansas must be a hoot!
Is a good idea though, good practice. Bet when a flock came by he had good grouping and an empty quiver.....
KS cowboy yes I put two large pieces of junk carpet back to back them hoisted up the target separate so I can lower it to retrieve arrows after a round of shooting I shoot a Mathews swithback XT 71 lbs I've missed target a few times most arrows glancing off target barely and carpet has stopped my arrows
Need some help here.
I shoot RH and have the MBG adjustable sight. Yes, it has the 3rd axis and we've tested it out and it's all dialed-in. On flat ground, I can shoot sporting clays at 70-100 yards. Not trying to brag, any of you can do that with the modern bows and sights.
The problem is this: when I shoot angles, my arrows drift left on me. Yes, I bend at the waist. Why would this be happening? Need some help on what I can do to correct in my shooting form. At 80 yards or so, it's about 6". Any ideas/tips would be appreciated.
Are you torquing? Try ignoring your aiming for a few shots and watch your top limb after the shot while shooting straight and then at an angle and see if there's any difference in the behavior of the bow.
Only good way to set 3rd axis that I know of is to get a Hamskea 3rd axis adjustment devise. (about $30 to $40 I think) Follow the instructions to the letter. Here's a little info you may or may not need; After shooting a few extreme mountain 3d shoots, all the angle compensating rangefinders work well on moderate distance uphill/downhill shots but on longer uphill shots you'll shoot low if you go by the horizontal cut that your rangefinder displays. Also on extreme angle down hill shots, like 15 yards down and 5 yard out, if you go by the cut on your rangefinder, you may shoot high. Practice is the only way I know of the figure these extreme shots out.
Ks, It is one of three things:
1: your bubble is not level at release
2: your 3rd axis is not dialed in (I did read your post)
3: you are torquing.
Work through it as you have to have confidence in these angled shots. .Hamskea has some excellent tutorials out there.
Mark
Mark, I'll take a look at the tutorials. I appreciate that tip. A well-respected and supplied archery shop already looked at the 3rd axis. Unfortunately, that is not the issue, as that would be an easy fix.
ks, following through on the torque issue and practice, that's what you hopefully work out before you go real-world. I've found with really nasty sidehill shots I definitely torque, and I somewhat preload against the slope (i.e., position my front foot higher to combat my bow falling away with gravity downhill on release). I am not recommending doing or not doing this, but as some folks who've put in the time have written, find out what works for you, and what your limits are (and hopefully expand your limits). Footing is another one - how many of us when shooting 3D shuffle our feet to find that semi-stable position, when in live situation you often have to absolutely minimize movement? The more uncomfortable a position or something makes you, the more it bears working on. When you go live, you'll have a good idea of what your limits are in various scenarios.
kscowboy......did you ever figure out your left hits on the downhill shots? I am curious what was causing them.
The extreme 3D shoots out there like Total Archery Challenge and some of the others are an amazing eye opener for you as a shooter. The unstable shooting platforms, crazy angles, and long distances really tax your form and understanding of what it takes to pull those shots off. If any of you ever get the chance I highly recommend attending one. They will without a doubt make you a better archer!
My back yard is a sheep mountain. I shoot into the backside of my bag target at about 25* to 30* downslope depending on where I stop. Heck of a lot harder than shooting the front side on the level. Helped me hone my form....bow hand torque was causing me to shoot some lefts on 80 yard (horizontal distance) shots taken across the hill at 30* from straight down. Brotsky is correct, shoot some severe angle shots, especially after climbing the hill when you are winded. Makes it much tougher. Shortens the effective range quite a bit!
Bending is not a necessity. Matter of fact it is pretty difficult to do for many. I know many top level pros don't bend, they just practice a lot. I do try to bend but often it becomes a combination of bending at the waist and shoulder for me.
kscowboy, Your 3rd axis is off.
Even with the Hamskea or Brite sight, it is just a starting point.
Find an angled practice shot that you can consistently make and have good groups at. Say 40-60 yards and 15-20 degrees. Shoot a group then adjust your 3rd axis accordingly.
Within a couple of groups, you will be dialed in from there it is more practice.
I'm going to practice some more steep angles next week after I'm done traveling for work. I may just embrace the left drift and compensate for it on my hunting shot. I shot on level ground yesterday when taking a break from the field and was having no trouble shooting distance.
I got the downhill dialed-in. We checked and adjusted the 3rd axis the other week. However, shooting uphill really alters things and yes, it still goes L. I feel like I'm almost laying my bow on its right side (shoot RH) when getting my MBG sight bubble to level. The bubble says it's level but it sure doesn't feel that way.
