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Which Video was it? Turnign an Anti
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Contributors to this thread:
coelker 22-May-17
Sage Buffalo 22-May-17
orionsbrother 22-May-17
orionsbrother 22-May-17
Sage Buffalo 22-May-17
coelker 22-May-17
orionsbrother 22-May-17
AZ~Rich 22-May-17
Buffalo1 22-May-17
JTV 22-May-17
Greg Kush 22-May-17
coelker 23-May-17
willliamtell 23-May-17
From: coelker
22-May-17
Well I currently am in a good discussion with an anti hunter. They are asking for more information on hunting Africa and specifically my talking points about how hunting is helping save animals etc. They actually are asking some good questions. I recall a few months ago that a video came out on the subject. I am not sure if it was youtube, Vimeo or??? But it was shot in Africa and depicted a native man who basically says he will go hunting one way or the other...

Any one have a link to that video? Or any other good videos? I have a ted talk that talked specifically about how the lion hunting ban killed all the lions in a certain country. But this other video seemed to have a lot more facts.

From: Sage Buffalo
22-May-17
There another video that shows how fanatical/unscientific most anti's are. It was done by 60 mins on the Scimitar ban in TX that lasted a few years. The woman says, "I would rather the species goes extinct than have one hunted to save them." It does talk about how hunting has saved these animals.

To me that's the crux of the pro vs. anti crowd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOpgvtl_wfI

22-May-17

orionsbrother's Link
Hunting recognizes the value of the animals and provides impetus to protect their habitat. Even 60 minutes recognized the fact that "Hunting provides economic incentive to protect these animals." "These animals thrive because of that value."

22-May-17
Ha! Sage and I were posting the same thing at the same time. Great minds.

From: Sage Buffalo
22-May-17
Now that's funny right there!

The biggest takeaway is how little people really understand about hunting and why it's allowed (forget about why we do it).

From: coelker
22-May-17
Thanks guys. I thought there was one that was a little longer and more of a documentary on Africa. I swore it showed a native who is going hunting one way or the other. In one case he was paid and the meat was all used and everyone celebrated. In the other case he poached an animal took only the most valuable parts and nothing more.

I will keep looking.

22-May-17
Also not what you're looking for and I find it annoying, but it makes the case to the stuffed animal crowd in a fashion to which they can relate.

From: AZ~Rich
22-May-17
When talking about Africa's situation it's not quite a homogeneous issue. There are so many independent countries, tribes, customs, economies and political issues it is difficult to lump them. However, one thing is clear to anyone who cares to look, the indigenous peoples of the continent have always hunted wildlife and took any species that was desired for food, medicinal, ornamental (feathers, skins, claws etc) as the opportunity presented itself without regard for future bounty. Hunting and tracking skills are ingrained through the millions of years into their many cultures and practices and getting food has always involved hunting.

Of course over the last couple centuries everything has changed in their world with technology, new political structures, new religions, Western societal laws, corporate big money, poverty, difficult diseases, crime and now terrorism. Most locals, of course, are not reaping much of the rewards from all the wealth generated there and get by with whatever means are available. Basic needs always come first in Africa and thinking beyond immediate needs, like your next meal is not the norm. If the value of an animal is simply to provide food and whatever else they were using from it than they will think nothing of killing it if the opportunity is presented. If the value of that animal can be transformed into something even more valuable, such as new sources of income (jobs) and the ability to provide even more benefits to their families and selves; they will see the animals as a means to a better end and help protect them directly and indirectly. The education factor is probably the biggest obstacle to achieving this across the many countries and cultures. If the animal's value is inflated up to the extreme amounts being paid for that illegal horn or tusk, then some will simply turn to poaching and senseless killing of rhino and elephant goes on.

As you know, hunters bring large infusions of cash to otherwise poor areas. Some of this money does find its way to the locals, however as anyone can see, they don't get very much of the pie as this wealth is concentrated with landowners, safari operators, and other industries like local meat markets, taxidermists, game breeders, fencing co's, etc. In the (not an everyday instance) where a problem animal like an elephant is killed by a hunter often all the meat goes to the locals who come to butcher it as we have all seen on TV. Yes, in this instance they do benefit directly with an additional value realized as prized protein. Plus it makes for a good filming element on these hunting shows. :)

However, in many areas it is still a tenuous arrangement keeping the locals in sync with protecting and nurturing the wildlife when they are still looking at the stark realities of existing from day to day. So, the poaching for food goes on but maybe not as much as it would be without the safari hunting. Check RSA's history on hunting. Their game animal numbers have dramatically increased over what they were since the 60's. The result of sound game management on private lands there has been nothing short of miraculous. Many uncommon species are now plentiful and in some cases overabundant. However, not all countries are run like RSA nor do they have the political situation to pull it off. Contrast this with Mozambique, where civil wars resulted in game simply vanishing from many areas due to rampant killing for food and survival with no regard to the future of threatened species or maintaining healthy game populations. Wildlife there is making a comeback in part by bringing back the hunters and reworking the value structure for wildlife.

Hunters pour much more money into the local poor economies than does ecotourism which has been demonstrated and acknowledged by various government agencies including organizations like SCI. SCI has a wealth of information on such matters and they may have just the ammunition you are looking for with your discussion. In short, Africa is diverse and things are very different across countries and cultures. Overall though, the native populations will take their protein one way or another, either they kill it illegally or buy it and other needed goods with money made from working in hunting-related jobs. Trackers, skinners, taxidermy workers, meat haulers, transporters, fence building, cooks, maids, guides, and all the other support workers needed are just some of the ways they pull in income that was not available before hunting. Plus, over time they are learning about sound game management and the true value of their wildlife through us.

From: Buffalo1
22-May-17
AZ-Rich

Great summary of the issues facing Africa. Well said and written.

From: JTV
22-May-17
SCI should have some info available ....

From: Greg Kush
22-May-17
Here's a TED Talk where the speaker (an animal rights activist) admits that they made a mistake when they got commercial lion hunting banned in Botswana since it led to the population decreasing dramatically.

From: coelker
23-May-17
Some very good talking points here. I already included the TED talk on Lion Hunting as it is pretty powerful.

I also like to mention that landowners and their employees need to make money. That if they were not able to make money from hunting, then the large land owners and the small land owners would make a living in some manner. In most cases, it would look just like the US. Native wildlife would be replaced by livestock. Predators would be shot on sight, and anything that ate cattle feed would be wiped out. If it was not livestock than it would be crops and anything that was damaging to crops would get wiped out.

I still need to find the one video. It surfaced around the time BIGPIZZAMAN was in his battle.

I remember it being drama/documentary and I recall an old tracker saying that tomorrow he will go for a hunt.

Thanks again guys. The anti hunter admitted that they do not like the idea, but that she could not find a better way to protect animals. She also admitted that maybe trophy hunters are not the spawn of satan, but she still thinks little of them. She is conflicted now and struggling with a paradigm shift.

From: willliamtell
23-May-17
Good TED talk - the guy clearly hates hunting but is honest enough to admit that hunting is the best solution out there for preserving lions, and that 'good' intentions (banning hunting) actually wiped the animals out.

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