Western big game hunting
Elk
I am losing my interest in going out west to pursue big game. I am sad to see what has happened to this sport I love. The expense and the complicated draw process in every western state is a mess. Pricing has become rediculous. Tougher and tougher for the working man to enjoy there vacation. The enjoyment is gone time to announce my retirement I will be 65 by next time I draw Arizona sick of buying hunting license for a point. Landowner are outrageous. Just wondering if anyone else is fed up.
I hear you, been putting in since I was old enough to get a decent job(20-21yrs old) have a ton of points and have drawn a couple mid tier units over the years. I am now 36 and wondering if I should have just saved the money and time and just hunted Alaska or Africa every few years. Or maybe my luck is about to change and I'm going to draw some sweet tags next few years??
No. It's part of the game. It changes constantly and that may suck for some people. Ultimately, it is still worth it for those who are willing to wait
What I don't get is jaq's research shows hunting as a dying sport but yet we still have point Creep and to my knowledge all draw tags are getting harder and harder to obtain. Or is this the baby boomer hump we need to get over before tags are easier to draw?
Hunt OTC and have fun.
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There are ALOT of western hunting opportunities that don't require a large stash of points and for the DIY guys, cost much less than a week at the beach. Yes, I'm typically disappointed in the western draw results too...which is why it is always a good idea to have a back up plan.
I don't think it is just Western States as some of us that live in the Rocky Mountain states go East for Whitetails or Gators or Hogs.......pricey going East too!
Do what ya can man and enjoy
Good luck, Robb
Take a trip of a lifetime every year! It's later than you think:)
It's a fact that game management by the states is becoming more complex as the biologists are continually tweaking their management goals and solutions. My home state of Virginia is WAY more complex than the OTC opportunities in Colorado or Idaho.
Robb is right too: a Virginia license to bowhunt deer is $64 for a resident.
Like taxes, we just have to deal with it and let your game department know when they can be doing a better job. Don't just complain to the game department but show them the problem and show them a solution.
Could be worse. At least you don't live in a country where you have no opportunity at all.
A quick search for hunting opportunities in TN revealed ~7000 acres of public land, and a 7 day NonRes hunting license is $214...
Yeeaaahhh right.... that makes western big game hunting look a lot more attractive to me
Well, if you want to reduce the congestion in the western state's archery seasons, lobby them to outlaw the compound and crossbow. You'll be surprised at how many guys give up the bow when they find how effective they become.
Of course this will never happen, but modern bow hunting has increased in popularity, especially when you can shoot animals 70 yards plus.
For those who say that doesn't happen, I watched numerous attempts on Alaska's Haul Road where people shot at bou so far away they didn't even spook when missed.
Our sport's popularity has created the problems addressed by the originator. Find a way to make it less popular and you'll get more permits.
NR tag in Rhode Island is $48 bucks. I'll be heading west as you head east:) Bring it on!
I would focus on the pros vs the cons of the draw system since you have to live with it anyways. You go can OTC every year and then every 2 to 4 years go on a limited entry hunt and once in every blue moon you may get to go on those ultra premium draw hunts.. especially if you are lucky. I have been fortunate in drawing New Mexico elk and have a friend who drew AZ elk last year and a Utah muzzy tag. Instead of getting burned out I am thinking of getting into more draws.
Good points. Loose horn ego and opportunities are amazing. 100% draw moose, $300 wy cow elk, bighorn ewe, utah spike. Many many many MANY more opportunities.
The draw does pay off looong term.
Yes it's gotten pricey and imo nr get gouged to much. Less hunters but mags and internet skyrocketed apps.
If you think it's bad now wait 10 years!
I live in Ohio. This year co ewe, nm nanny ibex, cow elk. I have hunted cow bison too. Cow elk every year.
Its certainly more complcated and expensive than it was but still plenty of opportunity. $1000 for gas, food & misc, $654 for a Colorado OTC either sex tag and habitat stamp you can buy at WalMart on the way up the mountain and hundreds of thousands of acres of public land to hunt. In 30 years, folks will be calling these the "good old days".
gutpile, I agree with the cost and tag systems many states have. I completely understand how this is a turn off to many NR, especially as you get older in life. however, as others posted, there are still OTC and left-over tag opportunities in some states that would allow you to hunt every year for a reasonable cost. don't give up yet.
I spent 13 days hunting in Nevada for elk last year. Ate a $1200 tag. Spent probably $400-$500 in fuel. $350 for hotel rooms on the way there and back. I don't count food because I eat at home too. Misc. other costs I can't think of right now. Call it $2500 for a 2 week camping trip. Had an absolute BLAST!!
I spent a week at Disney World within the last year and spent 3 times that . . .
My wife and I just got back from a 3 1/2 day Seattle trip where I spent more than $2500, and our flights were FREE.
Nothing is cheap now. Nothing. It's all relative.
I'll continue to play the game. I have a theory on it, but I gotta run right now :)
NM has become extremely popular as of late due to no point system.
When they first went to pay up front it helped a little. But now, most guys get a special card just for NM, put in for everything, then pay for the one or two hunts they draw.
As mentioned, if you want to go bad enough, there are OTC options especially if you're not stuck on the horn thing.
We are the problem, I keep hearing we are losing our sport not enough participants, we have lowered the hunting age, we have instituted a mentor hunting system and multiple other things to encourage new hunters. Now we are having troubles paying for or drawing tages it is our own fault, supply and demand. what do we want? less demand/hunters or worse odds/and higher expense? I don't think we know what we want. Other than we want the best of all worlds, and that isn't likely.
oz
For just a little bit more than your budget western hunt you can go moose, Caribou, blacktail, elk, or black bear hunting in Alaska.
Round trip airfare. $600 Rental car 2 week $500 Tag $350-$800. Depending on what you want to hunt. Raft $50/ day (optional) 4wheeler $500/ week (optional) Boat $300/ day (optional) Fly out $1500-5000 (optional)
Split some of the costs with a buddy and get an airline miles ticket and you could be hunting for the cost of a tag and rental car.
Spoken like a guy who is caught up in the points game. Screw that just hunt. I'm burning out on hunting the east simply because of hunter numbers. Getting a general license in Montana or Wyoming is easier than going to work or finding a big whitetail on public land in the east. And hunting the mountains NEVER gets old. I'm in for life!
I agree with BigOzzie. We keep hearing all this nonsense about the number of hunters declining and how we have to encourage more people to hunt to protect the sport. The evidence I see is that more people are hunting than ever before.
gutpile asked: "Just wondering if anyone else is fed up."
If by "fed up" you mean frustrated at the inability to draw extremely high demand tags, then the answer is no, because that's the expected result. We go ahead and apply for some of those, but knowing full well that there's little chance to draw. Still a guy could luck out once in a great while and hit one through sheer luck. Otherwise, you make plans for hunts that are a sure thing. Cost-wise, considering normal inflation, I can still do the same DIY western hunts I was doing 25 years ago for roughly the same cost.
A glass-half-empty attitude will only lead to misery. Let it go, and head for the mountains ;-)
Overall for the nation hunting license sales are increasing. See the link. Facts are facts. What this doesn't show is how many people are hunting in multiple states (not many).
I’ve been bow hunting elk DYI in Colorado across the counter areas for 9 years and have managed to kill one cow. The entire trip, license, gas, food etc. cost my nephew and me about $1500 each, and we drive 32 hours straight to get to our hunting area. Should have been building points all these years, but didn’t. My bad. I hunt elk with the hope that before age keeps me home, I’ll be able to kill a good branch antlered bull. I’ve come close so many times but couldn’t get it done. One year, soon I hope, the law of averages will be on my side, and I’ll have a bull stop broadside inside 40 yds. A bull would be the icing on the cake, but it’s the adventure and the possibility that this could be the year that keeps me going back. If killing an elk is necessary for a successful hunt you’re missing a lot. I’ll be 73 this year and might need to crank my bow down a few pounds, and I have to chuckle when I read about guys in their 50’s and 60’s wailing about how age has slowed them down to where they can’t elk hunt any more, or are hesitant to begin. Hell, I’d pay good money to be 60 again. Last year, my nephew and I camped in a nasty hole that took (me) 3 hours to pack my share of camp out ¾ of a mile. I’d go back in if I thought there was a decent bull there.
ohiohunter, it is definitely the Boomer Bubble. Hunter numbers are flat but license sales are increasing because more hunters are hunting multiple states and multiple species. Point creep is a different matter, because more people want to hunt premium areas, which drives up the applicants. Here in CO we never paid attention to Unit 2-10-201 until it got publicized as a true big bull mecca. Used to be able to draw it every few years. Then the word got out. An area I used to do my once every five year rifle hunt for pronghorn got publicized in magazines and by tag services. Always took 4-5 points, like clockwork. Now it takes 15 points, and it isn't that good.
The loss of access to quality private land is also a contributor. Back then we knocked on doors and got permission to hunt elk on multiple ranches in OTC units. Now every single one of those ranches is leased to outfitters. So you pay to play, wait to draw a premium unit, or hunt (perceived) lesser quality areas every year.
A very large number of hunters now are in the 45-65 year old demographic in peak earning years, with more disposable income and more vacation time (or retired early, thank you...). Nearly everyone I know who hunts, (serious hunters), hunts multiple states now. They pay outfitters, buy LO tags, apply in as many states as they can afford, and go for it. 30 years ago hardly any of my peers hunted multiple states, except maybe an occasional Canada trip or something. But not three or four states in the same year like some of my friends do now.
Just look at the number of Bowsiters who hunt multiple states every year, and we are a small sliver of the overall hunting population. Will be interesting to see how this dynamic changes in 10-15 years when the bubble of affluent older hunters slows down or stops hunting altogether.
I have felt the same in the past but the I considered not hunting and suddenly everything seemed better.
Some of the comments here scare me though. Make a method of take illegal so that less people enjoy OUR resource and in turn it improves for me? IMO once you get over the me me me everyone else is the enemy thing the OTC hunts are pretty fun. Seeing the same camps and new ones every few years is pretty cool. If you need the woods to yourself so you can have better odds I feel for you. Nothing better than driving past 10 camps with a 6x6 rack and bloody packs on your way back to camp. Or stopping at a camp for a warm cup of coffee during a biv hunt from folks you have know for 10 plus years but have never met in civilization. For me its about getting out and chasing elk. Go buy an OTC tag and enjoy your hunt. You won't regret it if you have the right mindset and sometimes Karma can be your best friend.... I think in general people need to lower their standards and realize we have nearly 325 million equal people in this country.
Gutpile Addict, I feel ya on the PIA, expense, and the normally poor odds . I got to say I am I finally had an outstanding Draw! Got my second choice for Rifle bull in New Mexico, and also drew a late cow tag on a Indiana reservation. Never before have I landed two tags in the same season! Also built more points in 3 other states. Life is good! LaGriz
"A quick search for hunting opportunities in TN revealed ~7000 acres of public land, and a 7 day NonRes hunting license is $214... "
Where did you get that 7000 acre number? I live right beside approximately 60,000 acres of public land in TN, and it's archery only except a few weekends a year.
I say hunt whenever and where ever you can. I hunt in TN a lot and travel out west almost every year. I put in for points with the realization Ill likely never draw a top tier unit.
Nope. Not fed up with it. I am just thankful we have all of these options.
What many confuse is the relative cost of big game licenses, both resident and NR, vs. average income. Compared to the 60s and 70s the cost is virtually the same as a percentage of overall average income. In many cases it's "cheaper" to hunt now.
The wage index in 1970 was $6100 compared to roughly $50,000 today. I read an article recently that showed how relative license costs vs. income peaked in the mid-70s.
I'm doing 7 hunting trips this year (8 if I finish elk hunting quickly enough). Not one of these hunts cost more than 1 point to draw and most are OTC. I've payed a grand total of $0 for landowner tags and private land access total. I'll be hunting 6-8 different species depending on if I get my 8th hunt in. The total cost of all these hunts combined will be around $10,000.
You don't HAVE to play the points game. You don't HAVE to buy land owner tags. You don'g HAVE to pay for private land access. You don't HAVE to live on the east coast which makes all these hunts more expensive. Those are all choices you make. I have little patience or sympathy for people who complain about hunting costing so many thousands of dollars per hunt. You can hunt the west on a budget if you so choose.
Not applicable Jaq. In the 70's hunters could use passed down Coleman coolers, a compass, a dime for the pay phone in Walden, Army surplus camo and a down vest you sewed yourself from a Frostline kit.
Todays mountain hunting requires high end clothing, a couple Yetis, and satellite comms. There's no money left for tags. I was going to throw in the $60K Duramax but hear some guys hunt out of Subarus so a fancy truck isn't required yet.
Some of you are questioning why, if hunter numbers are declining (which they are), is point creep such an issue? I think a couple of reasons. First, it's so much easier to play the points game with online apps, credit card payment, odds publishing services, and brokers that will do all of it for you. If you want to play the points game, it's never been easier or more publicized. Second, the pressure to manage areas for bigger trophies equates to very conservative tag allocation in these premium areas, which are well known because of the previous point.
I'm not burned out, I'll buy OTC tags for as long as they are available. And, I'll gladly buy cow tags if that's what I need to do. I quit chewing many years ago, and don't ever go out to bars. The money I save there will easily pay for my NR hunting trip each year.
Taste Life no else can taste it for you
@mountainman
When I searched 'Tennessee Public Hunting Areas' this is what popped up.
The internet is always right eh? :)
Hunter numbers overall have stayed almost exactly flat at 12.5 million for the past 16 years, according to census data from the USFWS and NSSF. As I posted above, more tags are being sold because more are buying multiple tags in multiple states. As a percentage of the overall population we are declining. In certain places, such as CO OTC archery elk areas, it may SEEM like hunter numbers are increasing, and they are - usually close to roads.
As Bake points out, anything fun costs more and more to participate. Skiing and golf are over the top, cost-wise. Disney World? Dear Lord. Concert tickets. Guided fishing trips are a couple hundred bucks a day per person. A NR deer tag in KS costs as much as a NR bull elk tag in CO, yet they sell out every year, mostly to guys who leave the same whitetail deer at home to hunt expensive "bigger" deer.
Like DonV has figured out, you can hunt all sorts of stuff if you get away from the horn fixation. CO and WY even offer reduced-price cow tags, so a DIY cow elk hunt is very affordable. NRs can draw cow moose tags in CO easier than residents. Some people may truly not be able to afford to hunt the west on their limited budgets, for various reasons. Unfortunately, that's how life works. I'm retired on a fixed income but save in other areas of life and earn some part time income (writing articles) so I can hunt deer and javelina in AZ, elk in WY, turkeys in NE, and several species in my home state this year. It's all about choices.
It is what it is, I spend more of coffee yearly then any elk tag in the west.
I'd love to see a concerted effort to develop a bigger pie for hunters. It would be a fun topic for discussion. Millions of acres of public land, much of it in poor condition habitat-wise, or very difficult/impossible to access. A bigger pie i.e. more animals in areas where they can be hunted, would help address the point creep phenomena, (particularly if hunter numbers seem to be flat). I don't get how you can really hunt a typical area if you don't know it. Doing that properly means either pre-scouting the area yourself (either you or your buddies), hunting it for long enough that you learn it, or paying someone with the knowledge and experience. If you can do that, you don't really need a 'trophy' district to take a decent animal. If you can't, then realistically what do you expect? At this point my biggest worry is running out of time to cash in on the points I've been steadily accumulating. Meantime I play the 'trophy district' game in hopes that if I do get lucky on a draw there I won't have to spend as much time/effort to get onto a decent animal as I will in a less optimal area. It really is more about time than points.
I think many are confusing hunting premium areas and animals with hunting each year. You can go west every year and hunt almost every big game animal (except the OIL animals).
You can go to Idaho this fall and get OTC tags and hunt in millions of acres. If you can't afford those tags then you probably shouldn't be going out of state because they are less than what you likely spend on alcohol every year (or some other vice).
What I think some want is hunting areas where 300+ bulls are the norm.
There's still plenty of OTC areas in several states for you to hunt.
This thread really opened a can of worms. I am burnt out on the BS. I will be headed to Iowa if I draw and maybe over the counter elk colorado
The problem with elk in CO is that there is plenty of May-October habitat. We could hold a lot more animals. The issue is Nov-April habitat. Winter range also happens to be the prime area for people to farm and live in many cases. I don't see a solution to the elk population here. Mule deer are way below historic numbers but no one seems to have the solution for getting them to recover.
Yep. Price keeps going up everywhere. Wyoming just raised theirs again. As long as I can afford it (and I'll sacrifice other things to do so) I'll keep going though. Haven't found anything else that makes me feel more alive. I'm one of those guys hunting multiple states every year. Can't wait till I retire and can do it more. I wish there was a solution to the acreage problem. Growing public land holdings will probably never happen. We'll probably just feel good holding onto access where we have it.
Go ahead and quit. One less applicant the rest of us have to compete against.
Go ahead and quit. One less applicant the rest of us have to compete against.
Gutpile, not sure what you expected but you got plenty of constructive feedback.
Good luck on all your hunts this year!
Point creep is being caused by less tags for more hunters wanting them. Whether it be wolves, biologists wanting fewer animals within the habitat, demand for higher scoring antlers going up, etc..... The opportunity for the average hunter is getting more competitive. Because As opportunity has decreased, demand as stayed basically the same or increased.
I felt the same way Gutpile. Until I realized my noble effort was doing nothing but punish me. So, Lord willing a CO otc unit 55 elk will die this November. Cause as was pointed out above, no one is going to live life for you. And, you'll be stuck with the choices you could control in the end. Live it before there is no opportunity.
I suppose I'll never hunt the upper tier units in any state that takes lots of points and high cost. But, CO is as friendly as any state with their hunting opportunity's to NR's. And that opportunity is leaving slowly. Soon enough the lions and a hard winter or two will put a halt to it. I just hope it waits until I'm 85. God Bless
With the beetle kill, the mule deer will comeback in those areas Glunt.
Lol theres always a last something
"A NR deer tag in KS costs as much as a NR bull elk tag in CO, yet they sell out every year, mostly to guys who leave the same whitetail deer at home to hunt expensive "bigger" deer."
Which states do they leave those deer? I'll go chase those pesky little things!! : - )
I'm not as hopeful the beetle kill will be the solution. It certainly opens stuff up and increases browse but mule deer aren't really thriving in a lot of the West including places where the huge pine choked stands weren't a factor.
It does make for some really pretty lumber. We just did a vaulted ceiling and wainscoting in beetle kill at friends place.
I hunt public land elk every year but it keeps getting more expensive , I figure there will be a point for me when I just say that's too much money and I reluctantly stop going . It has already doubled in price since I started going .
Say what you wanna say but a lot of western states and some Midwestern states over charge nonresidents. You can kill six deer in my state for under 300$ as a nonresident. Surely 3,4,500$ in some states is excessive. This being said I know there is a market for the high priced tags OTC and limited draw. They will charge as much as we will pay. Yes it is frustrating and unfair at time but I will continue to pay it.
how many of you guys take your family on vacation to someplace like Disneyland, or any other place people vacation, and say to the folks there:
"The prices are unfair, and I'm being priced out of vacationing here."
just wondering how that works out for ya................
Is there a North American model for vacationing at Disney?
Just wondering.
I happen to think there is quite a lot of opportunity if one wants, but also feel like it is okay to voice some concern or question some things.
We ought to start a thread "cheapest places to get a good hunt". Horn porn always costs you though. As an aside, why would an adult want to go to Disney anything? Bambi was the worst antihunting propaganda piece ever.
I know this is part of the original complaint, but you can't fault G&F agencies for trying to raise as much revenue as possible. The more money hunting brings to a state, the more valuable it is to the businesses and politicians, plus there's more to spend on conservation. As long as you're not talking big money ranches or indian reservations, I think western hunting is still well within the grasp of most Americans. I have yet to draw a premium tag. Kill most of my critters in general areas.
Lack of young succession is the problem Glunt. Beetle kill areas are exhibiting explosions in growth. It isn't a switch but, life will respond to it.
In your situation, I would not quit, just pare it down to a few favorites. In other words, don't play the point game in lots of different states, just concentrate on 1 or 2. Yep, cost of tags are continuing to rise at an alarming rate, and it has priced some of my friends out of going, but I will go as long as I am physically able and can afford it. Remember, you don't take a penny with you to the great beyond. And I have a bumper sticker that says: " I am spending my kids inheritance!"
I bought a place in Colorado that my wife likes to go to. So we go there in the summer and I scout and fish and she rests and fishes. Love both times in the woods.
Gotta say, as a die hard hunter, there is nothing wrong with going to Disney World. My wife loves it, I enjoy it, and if you have to shun it just because Disney created Bambi, that seems pretty insecure to me. Hunting is still here, its not going anywhere, and Bambi is 60 some years old. Its good wholesome entertainment, and has great usefulness in our otherwise violent and increasingly f'd up society. Slamming Disney venues over Bambi and personification of animals is a weak arguement FOR hunting rights. Now as for hunting the west, there are still countless means to achieve low cost big game hunts if you really want to work for it and research it. But you aren't gonna get it handed to you on a platter. Go earn it.
I agree TrapperKayak. A hunting trip out of your home state is a vacation. My point is that very few vacation trips are cheap. Just like so much of our society today, many of these people think EVERYTHING should be handed to them, or in this case, priced to their personal desire. There are plenty of opportunities for hunting out west. If you think you need to have a very highly coveted tag, you are going to pay for it.
Likewise, we are trying to plan a vacation to Glacier Park and Canadian Rockies. Rooms are out of reach in Jasper and Banff...$1k, and lowest flights to Kalispell are $700. from Syr. We CAN do it, but not sure we want to spend that kind of $$ or try to an it out better and cheaper for next year. But waiting game is always chancy too lest some malady happen to void the whole thing. So what do you do? Spend now for a sure thing, or wait to spend less and risk unforeseen problems arising? Just gotta weight it out. My tendancy is to act now play now, or 'pay' later (by not having an opportunity). Its only money. You gotta live while you can. No regrets. Spend it and live.
From my perspective, it is still doable.
I can elk hunt DIY for around $1500, give or take. And that is a 2 week hunt.
A 5 or 7 day winter vacation with my wife is costing 3 to 4 times that amount.
RE: Disney. No one has figured out how to extract maximum money out of visitors better than Disney. (And I say that having visited D World a couple of times) I couldn't spend that amount of money on a DIY elk hunt if I tried.
As far as complicated application process, I will admit there is no consistency between states. Yes you have to learn the nuances. Not every state is a bargain. (Financially or risk/reward) But tons of folks figure it out every year.
I hate to derail the thread, but I'm sorry to tell you TrapperKayak that personification of animals has already likely eliminated some forms of hunting in several states. Was Disney alone the driving force? No. It sure hasn't done hunters any real favors that I can recall though.
Corey, there have probably been some hunts or methods of hunting impacted by personification, but I doubt the ones who influenced those outcomes needed such excuses as cartoon deer fleeing the thunderstick or other such animations. Granted, it probably didnt help the cause for hunting. But I'd wager that these hunts that were halted were probably more likely due to orgs. similar to Humane Society and other urban mindsets outnumbering the supporters of hunts during voting on these measures. Nuff said, sorry to intrude, op.
Trap, as you note, the personification of animals is part of the big problem hunters and what we do have in the larger society. Yes Bambi is old news, but what has really changed with Disney - 'Never Cry Wolf"? Not to rip their business model or largely wholesome family entertainment at their resorts. However I don't appreciate being fed nonsense by a media company that affects how lots of people think, particularly youngsters. HSUS, PETA, Disney's animal portrayals are all part of a false or highly twisted narrative that in turn influences whether and how we get to hunt. Can you even trap in New York anymore?
I hope a lot of hunters get tired of it, to slow down the point creep currently happening in many states. :^)
Will, yeah NY has some pretty good trapping opportunities, lots of furbearers, esp. beavers these days. They have made a big comeback. We have a ton of fishers here now too. Our hunting seasons are long and liberal, and trapping is pretty steeped in NY tradition. When I lived in WA State, voters did away with trapping. That sucked. Its the left coast liberal mindset and high city populations that is impacting hunting and trapping, bear and cougar seasons in western coast states. No cougar hunting in CA, bear baiting in WA, no trapping in WA. Crikey, it is alot,of Hollywood, including personification influencing the young, but if they had good role models like I did, I could watch Bambi, go to Disney, go see puppies and kittens at HSUS and still go out every year and trap muskrats and mink and kill a couple deer to live on healthy protein. Its more about education that personification. I appreciate a good cartoon animal story (Beauty and the Beast) as much as I appreciate a real life week long elk hunt that ends in a kill, cow or bull. It takes a brain and the proper use of it to differentiate between the two. Many of our citizens nowdays lack one or both, so we have the threats to our sports we see playing out. Ever watch Watters World? So many people are either stupid or ignorant, or both.
The Disney mindset is rampant in CO. No trapping anymore, spring bear and baiting ended because of cute cubs on TV ads.
People dedicate their lives to trapping and relocating prairie dogs into little "towns" they've built for them. My former admin truly believed prairie dogs were real "dogs" and their babies were "puppies".
Almost everything out of Hollywood these days is heavily anthropomorphic (Revenant excepted). HSUS and PETA are in our schools. Just one factor in lack of youth recruitment into hunting. Girls don't like boys who hunt.
Prices have been bubbling on out of reach for the majority for a while now. And, it has reached the point of diminishing returns for a lot of people.
5 years ago, if I had the time, I could have afforded a sheep hunt. Now I have the time and can hardly pay the bills. Life is unpredictable. It just happens. And leaves some people standing in the street. We can all set and say we made better decisions than the guy left standing in the street. Until you are the guy standing in the street. So, Don't be an idiot and blab off stupid stuff about wanting it easy or, a free ride. Non residents just don't want to be priced outta the game is all.
There is no sign of NRs being priced out of the game in Colorado. They are everywhere during hunting seasons and bring a lot of money into the state so I don't expect them to be priced out anytime soon. I hunt at least two other states every year but do it modestly, never paid a guide. The thing that sucks the most for me is not being able to hunt where I live (in a draw unit). With point creep I can only hunt elk here every 8 years and climbing steadily. I don't plan on moving, I just deal with the choices I have made in life.
Not yet. Wait until units start hitting or exceeding objectives. Throw in a couple bad winters. Anything that affects non resident part I ilation is going keep the price going up.
For all, losing 55 and 551 as otc archery units forced a bunch of residents and no residents into surrounding otc units. Made point creep worse. And, this will continue in other units as objectives are met.
I live in Tennessee and have great deer and turkey hunting always get mine. With that said I have enjoyed my hunting vacations Arizona New Mexico Colorado Illinois Ohio Iowa Kansas and Texas. The altitude is kicking my butt knees and back. Might be time to retire maybe stick to white tails feel sure I will draw Iowa with 5 points.
I live in Tennessee and have great deer and turkey hunting always get mine. With that said I have enjoyed my hunting vacations Arizona New Mexico Colorado Illinois Ohio Iowa Kansas and Texas. The altitude is kicking my butt knees and back. Might be time to retire maybe stick to white tails feel sure I will draw Iowa with 5 points.
Been dealing with Achilles' tendon issues for 10 years now. Planters faciatus. Getting old sucks
One of the points that was brought up was how we are losing hunters. I call B.S. These statistics are generated on population. Yes we have a smaller ratio but I assure you that the number of hunters is up thanks to and NO THANKS to outdoor TV. The only people saying we need more hunters are the ones selling gear , land and hunts or in short making a living off the hunting industry. This is my 17th year hunting MT and the hunting pressure has gone up every year. Only time it went down was mid 2000's when nobody had a job or money to come out. jmo
I'll see your lack of access and raise you...as a British bowhunter, where archery equipment is not a legal means of take, and where land is 99.99999999999% private, I will leap at ANY opportunity to hunt public land Now will I pay ten grand for the ultimate experience? Certainly not at present [unless I win the lottery!!]...but I would certainly not shy from paying, say, $1000+ or so for the NR Big Game Elk and Deer combo in MT...after all this is an integral part of the cost of the hunt; no licence/permit/tag = no hunt Whilst my tag money is going to the state [part of which should at least benefit game management and conservation], I will also be paying for local services, packing, supplies, etc etc So keep some public land and some elk for we unfortunate be-nighted out of state [out of United States!!] bowhunters and we'll do our best to bring money in to your local economies Good luck and good hunting!!
The draw systems are out of control, and the "hunters" are big enough suckers that they will continue to go further and further in to the gray area until "hunters" either wise up, or someone with enough money gets bored and takes on the system, as about half of what is going on is entirely unconstitutional. I refuse to play with states that operate in a way that essentially charges a ridiculous arbitrary amount for a "point". I figured out a LOOONG time ago I was born to be a DIY, OTC, Public Land guy till I die. Been happier ever since...
Bull Tipper,
How are hunter numbers increasing in Montana when tag numbers are capped? You may be seeing an increase in archery participation. In fact, I would guarantee archery participation has increased drastically in 17 years. However, total hunter numbers has not.
Elkman,
I agree. I have little interest in playing points games and sitting on waiting lists. I'll gladly hunt OTC units on public land. The only draws I'm interested in are general tag drawings where I can reasonably draw every other to every second year (i.e. Wyoming and Montana).
I'll play the points game and still hunt every year otc, cow tags, leftovers, whatever. I don't gamble and I don't plat the lottery but I love putting in for LE tags. I expect to eventually draw a couple really great tags. If I don't, oh well, at least I'm helping to support some game departments.
Looking at the recent WY price increases, I think they've found my tolerance threshold for moose. The tag price went from $1400 to almost 2 grand and moose numbers are dropping in WY with SW WY probably slated to lose a NR random tag (the only pool I'll be in till I'm old) or two over the next few years if things continue the way they have been. It wouldn't bother me as much if I didn't have to front them the tag money for 3 months for one-in-triple-digit odds.
An OTC DIY hunt runs me about $3000. License and tags are just a part of it, normally less than a third. I can't afford it, but I can sure justify the heck out of it..... . and I'll keep doing it until I need glasses...... Play the points game here and there, that to me is where a good bit of gouging comes from..... getting expensive to just participate and buy a "point", much less stash away enough to even try to draw. But I do it because I want to. And it all goes on Coach's card anyway...... heheheheh....
And anyone driving 30, 40, 50 thousand dollar trucks automatically gets his Whiner Card revoked. Your priorities are mucked up.....
Not many things in life stay the same, much less get any cheaper over time. Homes, cars, food, clothing..... you name it. Hunting is no different, not immune to how the world works, nor the pressures of everyday life.
Well, unless you're a socialist/communist..... maybe a Trumpcare for hunters? Affordable Hunting Act?
JLS, I have to agree with Bull-Tipper there are without doubt more people hunting in Montana than there used to be, both archery and rifle. Unless they all just quit hunting in the rest of the state and only go to the areas I happen to hunt. Maybe they all used to buy a tag, hunt a day and shoot something, and now they buy tags and hunt all season. 25 years ago we would take off work during the week, and we wouldn't see other hunters. Now there are people camped everywhere all season long.
I agree with BigOzzie.
There are too many hunters for the number of animals and rate of technology advancements. We need fewer hunters, not more. The whole recruitment idea is stupid and spawned by manufacturers trying to sell more and Associations looking for members.
And yes, Montana is packed with too many hunters in most areas.
Very possible more hunters in your area...... but a good deal of it may be that folks are able to do more and more out of state hunting. The logistics, gear, maybe most importantly the information available is much better now than at any time I can remember. In my fathers time out of state hunts for most anything were OIL hunts, if folks did them at all. Now there are many people that do multiple state hunts EVERY year.
Hope to see you folks in MT again some time in the future..... =D
I still say we are giving up way too easy on developing bigger pies. Controlled burns are a great example of how this could be done Combined with intelligent replanting it creates a create browse - a magnet for ungulates. How do we help get them through the starvation season? Fence off some areas until midwinter? Shoving hay at them isn't a long term answer - concentrates them too much - but may help them get through the toughest winters. Regarding seeing more hunters out there, people used to get cheap tags and drive around until they saw an animal, then get out of the truck and shoot it. Or not. Now people are investing more of themselves into the hunt - folks who live in those states in many cases move/retire there for the hunting. I can't believe how many fly fisher persons I see on Montana streams in the fall - 'River Runs Through It" syndrome. Thinking outside the box, regarding costs maybe offer people who hunt a tax deduction for one out-of-state tag per year. It behooves folks who are into sustainable use of renewable outdoor resources to speak up and get active and organized to achieve a viable political voice. This isn't just about gun rights.
The price for out of state tags really is getting too high. From a hunting point of view, I'm lucky that I live in Montana, I'd like to hunt other states too, but I don't need to, and the price puts me off. Honestly, I think Montana should lower the price of out of state tags, encourage more non residents to hunt here, instead of trying to get 10 year olds out every fall with a rifle in their hands. Out of state hunters will spend much more here than just the price of a tag.
Bulltipper, there are 12.5 million hunters nationwide and that number has been flat since 2000. That's documented fact.
Some areas are showing increased hunting pressure because more hunters have more disposable income and are into the "Western craze", and there are arguably more bowhunters than ever before.
In 15 years there will be far fewer hunters. That's documented statistical fact as well. Missouribreaks will be happy that recruitment isn't happening but bit won't matter because he won the hunting them anyway.
There are also only 1/3 the total number of hunters in the US today compared to when hunter numbers peaked in 1970. So the idea that there are more hunters hunting fewer animals is unsupportable by documented statistics.
Hunter success is much higher than in 1970. Whether you are discussing muzzleloading, which was pre inline, or bowhunting which was largely pre compound, or rifle hunting which with modern optics and ballistics is easier than ever, and with trail cams, ATV's, etc, hunting is much simpler and easier today. Couple that with special seasons, crossbows taking over archery seasons, decreased hunter access and the available game is getting heavily pressured. Why do you think there are more species on a drawing or quota season than ever before?
We need fewer hunters and shorter seasons for many species.
There are fewer hunters,............. but more hunters hunting multiple seasons, with multiple weapons, and in multiple states. I hope you don't require a scientific study to make that assessment.
Wow....some of you western guys should seriously consider taking a deer hunting trip east of the Mississippi. I can guarantee you would return home with an entirely different view/definition of hunting pressure. (i.e you have absolutely no idea how good you have it!)
Crossbows have resulted in easier success and where legal during the general archery season are replacing compound hunters and bowhunters as defined by the P&Y Club, nothing more. Bowhunting, as defined by the P&Y Club will continue in a steady decline, nothing more. More animals will be on a drawing, and/or quota and seasons will become shorter, nothing more. Not the end of mankind, just the end of bowhunting as it was intended.
There are excellent statistics from Wisconsin, one of the former great bowhunting states. In just four years, the use of the bow, bow kills, and bowhunting as defined by the P&Y Club has declined nearly 50%. These are published statistics.
Huh - wonder why hunter success rates aren't any higher in CO today than in 1970, despite inline MLs, 1000 yard rifles, ATVs, and the dreaded proliferation of compound bows?
We heard all this same garbage back in the '70s when compounds first hit the market. Substitute "compound" for "crossbow" in your last post and we can rewind 47 years.
Sometimes opening a thread is like walking into a bar and having to listen to the senile old drunk in the corner ranting about nonsense.
The bowhunters still hunting with your "approved" bows in Wisconsin are still bowhunting. Who cares what others hunt with, Mr. Sourpuss Glass Half-Empty?
Very short sighted individuals.
The North American Model of conservation demands participation in order to function. To wish for a decrease in hunter numbers is short sighted.
MIssouribreaks - "There are excellent statistics from Wisconsin, one of the former great bowhunting states. In just four years, the use of the bow, bow kills, and bowhunting as defined by the P&Y Club has declined nearly 50%. These are published statistics."
Yeah, I just had to take the bait and go look for myself....
Comparing 2014 and 2015 archery license sales to pre-crossbow 2013 archery numbers reflects a drop of 13-15%. If every single one of those license sales switched to crossbow license sales...that leaves more than 70% of the crossbow license sales attributed to non-bowhunters.
All I could find for 2016 was an alert that Wisconsin deer firearms license sales hit a 40 year low. So, part of that 13-15% reduction in archery license sales could very well be deer herd related....not just crossbow. Either way, the crossbow is NOT responsible for a 50% bowhunting reduction in Wisconsin over the past four years....based on published statistics.
You need to review the carcass registrations as well.
OK...did that. Still not seeing the correlation as related to crossbow liberalization?
Between 2007 and 2015, the gun kill fell 45% (from 400,000+ animals to 220,000). Bow kill fell by a little more than half during the same time frame. Data shows the overall harvest numbers were dropping like a rock prior to crossbow inclusion. I'm out.
So... you must agree that bowhunting, as defined by the P&Y club, is in serious decline in the state of Wisconsin. Down nearly 50% in fact!!!
By the way, harvest numbers were declining due to a huge over population of deer in the 1990's and on into the late 2000's. Deer tags in many Wisconsin areas were available unlimited over the counter for as little as $2.00. Of course harvest numbers fell when populations became more in line with objectives and tag sales were reduced by the DNR. The key point is crossbow kills vs bow kills. A drop in over 50% in bowhunting license purchases and registered bow kills, while at the same time crossbows licenses grew exponentially and are now surpassing bow licenses and success rates as proven by registration numbers. It is a fact that in four years, bowhunting as defined by the P&Y Club (bow license purchases and registered bow kills) , has declined basically 50% in Wisconsin, all due to the crossbow acceptance, crossbow license purchases, and crossbow registered kills. This is an undisputed fact and cannot be twisted or overlooked!
Missouribreaks, you and I apparently have entirely different data interpretation and reading comprehension skills. I'll leave it at that.
Being a doctorate, I tend to review "all" facts and reach logical conclusions.
I will also state, due to crossbow acceptance and the decline of bowhunting as defined by the P&Y Club, the long term future of a robust P&Y Club is in serious, serious doubt. I hope the "powers to be" are visionaries beyond five years.
I was bowhunting when the P&Y decided to remain viable by accepting compounds, then more let off, then more let off, etc. What will happen next with regards to crossbows?
What will happen next? Nothing, because the members will never vote to approve crossbow entries.
Look at Comptons and PBS. Both irrelevant, dying organizations populated by grouchy old geriatrics. Before long they'll hold annual conventions in a Golden Corral and Depends will be a primary sponsor...
I shoot an Osage selfbow, glass recurve prior to that, about 30 years ago. Tried a compound, was not me.
Also have percussion cap and ball for black powder and rifle seasons.
I know I don't make much sense, check back in ten years. Make Bowhunting Great Again!
I just wish the guy would change his handle...as the Missouri Breaks is my elk hunting destination this year. Starting to cringe when I see those words in print!
Sounds like your dog is due for some wormer...
May I please have your Osage self bow when you die? I promise I'll hunt with it.
Actually no. One was made by Art Young, the other by a nobody such as me.
History lesson....... Smokeless powder pretty much replaced black powder. Repeaters largely replaced single shots. Scoped rifles largely replaced open sights for hunting. Inlines largely replaced Hawkens for muzzleloader special season hunting. Composite bows largely replaced lemonwood selfbows. Compounds largely replaced stickbows for bowhunting. Crossbows will have no impact!!!! Do you guys actually and truthfully believe that?
Missouri...who pissed in your Wheaties ???
Speaking of Western hunting. Montana does NOT allow crossbows for everyone( ALL archery hunters) during the general archery seasons for elk, deer, antelope, sheep, goats and other species. Should this be changed, and why, why not?
Where are the visionaries, especially those from Montana and the MBH?
As a doctorate, no one can touch his wit and intellect. 'What will happen next with regards to crossbows?' you ask? Why are you asking all us inferiors? With your vast education and experience, You HAVE all the answers. Imo Crossbows here in NY haven't had any negative impact on deer pops. or hunting quality. They vastly outnumber compounds on store bow hangers now. Big f'ing deal. I have never once seen anyone even hunting with one even here in NY. Did you check NY stats on declining bow hunter participation like you did for Wisco? What do you find? I didn't, I don't care. I still hunt the same way as I did 45 years ago, never see anyone. Little changes here in 'heavily populated NY'. Not so in Montana where hunting experiences declined in my experiences, to the point where hunter numbers made it almost undesireable. There were hunters on every ridge in the Gallatin, all seasons. I thought it was actually a less crowded scene in WA State. What's your experience in Montana? Better now than in the 80's, esp. with the threat of crossbow looming? Crossbows wont change anything. Just attitudes, obviously.
Interesting that crossbows vastly outnumber compounds on the shelves. Must be a lot of stupid retailers if compound use and bowhunting as defined by the P&Y club is not in a steep decline. Who buys all these crossbows on the shelves if it is not new hunters and past compound users (former bowhunters)? Are there that many senior hunters and hunters with disabilities?
Thank you for helping prove my point that bowhunters and bowhunting (as defined by the P&Y club) are rapidly declining in America.
Make Bowhunting Great Again!
I thought this started off as a rant about the price of NR western big game tags and playing the points game? WRT the OP...... how did this get to crossbows? Crossbows have ZERO effect on any of that. None. Nada. They are pretty much a non-factor in the west.
I'm sure they likely exist, but I know of no "hardcore" crossbow hunters. I have never heard of any even hunting out of state. WRT to western NR tags and draws..... they are as much a factor as a unicorn survey......
" I have never heard of any even hunting out of state"
Impressive!
Oh, I'm sure there likely are that have. I have just never personally heard of anyone, other than someone who is involved in trying to promote/sell them that is..... X-bow folks are normally one and done..... they dabble in it for the fantasy for a few weeks and on to the next new thing that pops up when the reality doesn't match up to the fantasy.
If I were going to get one I'd certainly not buy a new one.... I'd go on ebay or Craig's List....... they are thick on those places..... and cheap. I just got done two weeks ago putting string and cables on one a buddy's x-bow (rifle hunter).... picked it up at a yard sale for $10.
In a good many years of hunting the west I've never so much as seen one in the field. Never. They must be out there somewhere but are as rare as honest politicians. Again, a non-factor. Other places..... I don't really know...... nor really care to find out....
What really burns me up are the states that charge non residents for a hunting license that they know darn well will never be used unless they draw a tag. I have no problem paying if I draw but to charge that license fee up front is bull. I love hunting elk with a bow and that's why I keep applying and at 68 I don't know how many years I can keep going. Right now I must apply with an outfitter in New Mexico because of what they did to non residents and tag allocation a few years back. So my last few years hunting out west will cost quite a bit
Shorty, I wonder about that, too. Why don't they just charge an "Application fee" if it really costs money to process the application? My hunch is that increasing the number of licenses sold translates into a bigger budget for someone in that particular Game and Fish Department. "License sales went up, so my budget should go up, too!" ... all that and really no extra work.
TD, one year I met an Amish guy in NM that was hunting deer and elk w/ a Xbow. Never did figure out how it was legal, he (and others) claimed he was legal so they had zero issue openly talking about it.
Only legal during the archery hunts if they have a mobility impaired card.
Speaking of the Missouri Breaks, I generally spend some time hunting there each year and grew up in the area.........My eye test tells me it's more crowded and the same is true here in Western Montana as well. Additionally, bow hunting exploded in Kansas where I lived for 15 years. I still hunt all those areas and manage some success on public land too. Hunters are not distributed like they used to be with big ranches and desirable habitat directly leased by folks or indirectly by outfitters. I still play the game but at 45 years of age and I've been killing stuff with my bow since I was 12, so I have my rack and horn and beard and feather collection:) Increasingly, I find myself drawn to bow fishing for carp and DIY bear hunting where there's much smaller crowds to deal with and less commercialization. I choose to make less money comparatively and live right in the mountains. I would imagine the mountains or west are phenomenal to visit for an easterner but it's got to be frustrating too in a "crowded", general tag unit with no scouting and a weeks time to hunt, then go home empty-handed..........or maybe that's just how I would feel.
Compared to when the Breaks were "general" units years ago I don't think they get near the pressure now they are draw units. LE and a fairly tough draw for NR.
Amish guy in NM? geez.... folks complain about 20 hour drives...... how long would it take in a buggy? heheheheh.....
They are a draw unit but I believe those who draw are not restricted to that unit, 410 as an example. Plenty of hunting pressure south of the river.
For those that are looking to get a Generic Tule Elk in Ca for their NA Animals the Odds aren't too bad. 1in 22 on Grizzly Island. On cows it gets even better. Hunters with max points rarely put in for them any more. I remember one year a man I met while bow hunting said no one put in for one of the cow hunts.
The problem with those Grizzly island hunts is that a) the number of apps goes up and down each year like whack-a-mole. I put in for those hunts trying to get a cow tag and it seems I always pick the wrong one. And b) CA only gives out one NR elk tag per year, so the odds are not true there... It's divided by all the NR applicants.
Here's what I do. I get the newest stats and look at what hunt has the most applications from last year. Then I pick that one. I have about 10 years of the books. They go up and down. But I have 15 years of not being drawn so throw out that idea.
I use to give money to Colorado and the communities every year. Its the cost of the tags absolutely.
IMO regarding equipment it's a generational thing. Whatever we spent a lot of $$ and time on getting good at is our benchmark, but one thing mix did point out is the relentless march of 'progress' . Bottom line, if kids decide that xbows are how they want to hunt, that's going to become the new norm.
I respect stick bow hunters and guess people who use xbows would respect non-xbow bow hunters for the same reason - you have an additional handicap and it takes more skill (or patience) to successfully harvest an animal. As long as I end up with a decent place to hunt animals I'm not going to spend too much time complaining. The sport of hunting needs as many supporters (who are usually participants) as possible.
