I read the past couple of days just how bad the dead timber is walking trails in wilderness areas ..... how do outfitters get in and out with horses?
Are they allowed chainsaws ? I guess I'm thinking if its THAT much trouble, I need to focus on those areas, less outfitters might equal better hunting.
Volunteers and USFS seasonal staff clear all the main trails from the trailheads with hand tools. In the wilderness areas I'm familiar with, outfitters use those to get to-from their hunting camps. Beyond that any clearing must be done by the outfitter's crews with hand saws, which is a LOT of work.
You should definitely focus on the areas with acres of waist-high beetle-kill and wind-blown deadfall. You'll find very few hunters in there, and you'll get an entirely new perspective on packing out elk if you are lucky enough to get one. AndyJ can tell you all about that.....
But seriously, why hunt wilderness areas at all? There are huge expanses of roadless NF that nobody hunts because it isn't romantic "wilderness", and which don't have trailheads choked with cars, trucks, horse and llama trailers. If you want deadfall, here's a spot for you that I'm not hunting anymore. You won't see another hunter, guaranteed, there are elk there every year, and it's at the end of an hour-long ATV ride (or all day backpack) over a nasty trail to where you jump off to hunt.
They are responsible for clearing and cleaning the trails. They aren't allowed chainsaws in the wilderness and use hand saws, bow saws and axes to clear trails. It makes for long, long days...
I ride in a burnt, blow down wilderness hell hole a lot and to answer your question how do outfitters do it ? The answer is GOOD horses !! My horses will walk over fallen trees, walk around them, go straight up the side of a canyon and straight down and go all day . I was scouting in a wilderness last week and rode for 6 hours in some TOUGH country and the horses couldn't have been better . The USFS stopped maintaining the trails in there because no volunteers could ever keep up with all the burnt trees that have come down. It would take some serious equipment to clear them now . But those horses can sure get it done in that kind of country.
Boys, that would be bad but, the worst beetle kills and wind blown timber stands will never compare to Rhododendron thickets on 70-80% slopes.
Also, those wilderness designation that so many harp on have their definite downsides too. I like 'em enough and know we need wild places. But, to hamstring managers and, users from using a chainsaw to clear the trail, makes it appear to me that their was an ulterior motive attached to that lovey dovey idea. Just some food for thought. God Bless men
where I used to hunt ..... the trail in is very steep ..... and narrow, and with downed tree's everywhere, I can imagine even horses having a tough time
a "honey hole" I shot my best elk in ? if there is downed timber I'd bet money a horse can't get in there - llamas had a hard time 15 years ago !
why would I hunt away from the roads and people and outfitters? personal challenge at 48 years old :)
Hey stealthycat bet me a horse can't get there !! We ride into places most people/hunters would never try to hike into more than once but the elk and the horses will ! I'm not talking the weekend rider or some hunter that is on a horse for the first time, I'm talking about guys that have been riding their whole lives and know how to ride GOOD mountain horses.
A very large percentage of trails in the wilderness (Gila) we hunt have been destroyed thanks to monster fires and subsequent floods. They will never be re-done by the forest service . In fact the forest service doesn't really maintain the trails at all. Some trails are there and you have to pick your way through. Not impassable but difficult. Other trails are just gone, they don't exist anymore.
People/outfitters continue to get to their chosen hunting area simply by finding another way.
That picture is cake, compared to some of the beetle kill areas I have to pick my way through in my "normal" elk hunting areas. Here's a good one for the "horse challenge"...
I have horses that can climb trees ... and where I'm hunting this year, it's a no-go. It's that bad. I managed to get a friend to help me get a bull out in 2015. And another friend to help with 2016's bull. I'm going to run out of friends eventually, and I don't want to test my wife's loyalty (yet).
It's really too bad ... the wilderness areas are basically inaccessible. Sure, jdee, we "can" go in there. 2 weeks ago, we met a rider at one of the places we ride and told him we made a particular loop that he had just told us was "impossible". Well, we did it, and it was a good upper body workout with the hand saws. But I'm not going back soon. I have only so long on this Earth and I don't intend to spend it on a horse at walking speed ... horses are for moving.
My best mountain horse was also a five-time Colorado State champion amateur jumper. Big, stout, strong. There are a lot of places where I hunt that I wouldn't think of trying to force him through, never mind trying to pack out an elk. Not far from where Deertick is hunting. And my Purdy used to enjoy jumping over logs with fully loaded panniers.
The deadfall is only starting. Many areas are totally "gray" with standing dead timber covering entire drainages. The whole process of elk hunting in northern CO and southern WY will change dramatically in the next ten years as these complete mature forests fall down. I'm constantly having to learn new spots as mine become impenetrable season by season.
I did have the opportunity recently to drive in the Shirley Mountains in central WY ... very odd! There was no beetle kill at all. It was stunning how "green" the forest looked, and how little deadfall was littering the ground. Now, that's good horse country.
Wilderness isn't usually the best place to hunt, at least not in my experience. Just like mentioned above, the designation on the map can actually make it more crowded than a non-designated area that joins it. Crazy, but true.
The goal of "capital W" wilderness is the absence of "management". That's literally one of the main reasons why it exists. The trail guy's I know use great big cross-cut saws to cut away deadfalls. When used correctly, they can actually be faster than a chainsaw.
The only place I have seen where I couldn't get a horse was a drop off cliff. I have been in some places that got so rough we got off and led the horses until we got out of it. If there is too much dead fall you need to pick your way around it. My horses live in the high country and graze in rough country every day. I don't live in flat land with nice flat green pastures. I see cowboys come from Texas to ride this wilderness every year with horses that just don't have what it takes to handle it. A horse has to be in shape and learn not spook or want to turn around in ROUGH country !! and that takes time. There's not much in this world I like more than my horses . My horse are mountain, quarter horse geldings, not parade horses .
Ohio hunter, have you ever seen a two man crosscut saw used correctly? The blade is sharp and narrow, with a really long stroke. It slips through big logs pretty quickly. My comments are from things I've seen. Have you seen it at all? Not much deadfall in Ohio, or Wilderness for that matter. I'd be happy to hear about your experience that led you to comment. Feel free to PM or post.
That section me picture of yours looks like a Bigfoot stacked those dead falls in place. At least, that's what the Bigfoot experts on Discovery channel would say! Lol
I don't need a deadfall to cut to know the mechanical advantage is extensive. Stealths video they made the guy start that puny saw, I've seen bigger Fisher Price chainsaws!.... Not to mention that log is set up perfectly, not so much in a deadfall situation. You must not know many loggers halibut, nor have seen them work. I could have a tree down, bucked, and cut into fireplace length logs in minutes; 8 men and 2 saws still couldn't do it as fast let alone faster.
ohiohunter all true.... however you can see that a 2 man crosscut saw can cut logs fast
I'm very very curious to see how many tree's are down in the area I go ....... I read a snippet off a backpackers site in a nearby area that I've hiked and it said
" HEAVILY BLOCKED by fallen trees ... trees/fallen trees cover flat areas."
"extreme .. climb over hundreds of dead trees over trail."
This whole thread has me remembering a discussion with an ex-outfitter. We were discussing places to ride horses that didn't require moving at a snail's pace or getting off and cutting trees every 20 yards, and his point was this: Find out where the outfitters go in, and go in there. You don't have to camp on top of them ... in fact, once you get through the lower country, the higher stuff is often more open -- it's like the deadfall provides a "fence" around the more open portions.
That got me thinking.
Anyone know where outfitters enter the wilderness in Northern CO or Southern WY?
Google some logging competitions. They have both one man and two man crosscut contests.... honestly pretty amazing, how fast and efficient they can be with just man power.
Then check out the chainsaw contests, they have several classes there as well. It's not even close.....
WRT blowdown forest most times even a chainsaw can be tough to cut with, safely anyway, that stuff is a spring back accident waiting to happen..... a good deal of the cutting is undercut too, not the strength of a crosscut saw, even if you could find the room to stroke it..... Alot of work with a chainsaw...... a VERY long day with axes and hand saws...... any way you slice it....=D
And now back to our originally scheduled broadcast......
I got no dog in this fight, BUT when hand tools were king, as in: no motors on nothing, real men like my daddy could make an axe or a cross-cut sing. Most of us have no idea how men used to work. We were brought up in the age of machinery, even us "old" guys. My dad would sharpen his axe each time he used it, and you'd better stand back, because the chips coming out of that cut would hurt you. When I was a kid, all the pulp wood cutters used a cross-cut and a bow saw. The guys that loaded and hauled it did so by hand and all were built like Arnold Swartzenhoosit ! My dad had a set of biceps that rivaled any weight lifter, but he got them from hard work on the farm and in the woods. Just an observation.
Deertick, in my part of NoCo the outfitters go in at the trailhead in my photo and the other two further north, into the Rawah Wilderness. The day I took that photo an outfitter I know was getting ready to pack four guys in to a drop camp. He and I were joking (out of their earshot) about their expectations of solitude and lack of hunting competition in that wilderness area.
Last time I used an outfitter in CO they would ride in during the summer and cut the trails open they use in the fall. He said they provide the stock and then get volunteers for the NF to help. Not just the outfitters use the trails since a lot of locals have horses. He said the problem was the gov't required quite a few hours of saw safety for the volunteers to minimize liability. Turned away some volunteers.
I own quite a few chainsaws. Some little 50 cc trimmers and some 100 cc beasts. Ported and polished. They are like running a dirt bike. I've Been a forester for over 20 years. Now, I run chainsaws bucking logs and trees running a log yard and logging business. So, I've been around timbering and the cutting of trees for a while. A crosscut saw was a good tool 50 years ago. But, a modern chainsaw is more than any match of a cross cut saw. To say different is plain ignorant. Sorry to sound so rough. But, if a chain saw wasn't quicker, loggers would still be using cross cut saws.
That'll work. But, a 372 XP is hard to best for the weight. When it's worked, it's the perfect saw. Light and fast. Makes you feel like Tim the Toolman Taylor when you run them
372 XP is a great saw but when I need to cut a little weight I go to my MS 461R. Probably my all time favorite. I also have an 088AV and a MS 66 ....Big dogs !! I like orange and white.
Your points on wilderness not being "all that" are well-taken. I'm thinking mostly for riding opportunities in the summer for those trailheads.
But ... once you get through the deadfall, often there are huge expanses of territory to go -- far from "outfitters" or others.
The trouble with wilderness isn't so much the wilderness, deadfall, or the company. The trouble is the difficulty moving a camp if elk aren't where you expect them. You lost the mobility of pickups and ATVs, gain nice views, but don't necessarily change the elk density. It's a gamble.
Anyway, Lou -- let me know where I can ride into the Rawahs. I don't want to hunt there -- just looking for actual trails to ride without ATV traffic. We tried one of the spots north of Chambers and too much deadfall -- even for me.
"Most of us have no idea how men used to work." We should probably all play that over in our heads a few times, and thank our lucky stars. Most of us will probably live a lot longer to do what we enjoy because of it. When we consider ourselves to be in "good shape" these days, a lot of us would work like pansies in comparison to our ancestors.
While men from years ago could work their tools well, I think the case has been made for motorized saws being the most effective for almost all situations. It's too bad that some common sense can't be used, allowing chainsaws in the big W for at least certain conditions on a limited basis. I don't believe that limited use would undermine the intent of wilderness, and in some cases might be beneficial to the cause.
I haven't seen a logger use a chainsaw in a really long time. They cut more timber here every year than they could imagine in Ohio. Everything is done with machines, including de-limbing. No one "bucks" anything. A hydro-axe cuts and lays down bunches of logs and they're drug out with a skidder.
You're free to think, feel, or believe what you want. I don't care. Carry a chainsaw into the Wilderness and you're a criminal. I'd turn you in for that, and I'm pretty permissive.
The "capital W" matters. It's important. It's just not a really good place to hunt.
I stand by my comments that a cross cut can be faster than a chainsaw under the right conditions.
Waist high and zero debris, doesn't happen often? BTW I don't live in Ohio ;) .... no need to fret you'll never see me wasting my time hacking deadfalls unless its in my job description. Pretty sure hand tools gave way to power tools which in some cases have given way to heavy machinery, I don't know too many hikers or hunters wielding 1/2million dollar machines just to clear a trail. Whats faster 2 men with one saw.... or 2 men with 2 **chain saws? just sayin.
I guess in your defense, yes in the wilderness a cross saw is faster b/c the chainsaw should be non-existent in such setting.... you win.
I guided with an outfitter for 4 years in western Wyoming, and we cleared trails at the beginning of every year. Yes, the Forest Service did have trail crews do some trail clearing, but it was usually later than we needed it and sub par for pack stock. We used chainsaws in the Forest Service ground, and two man saws in the wilderness. Yes the chainsaw is faster, but with a little practice a two man saw is very effective. Plus when you are out for three or four days clearing miles of trail in the Wilderness, packing around enough saw gas and oil gets quite cumbersome..... So the answer to the original question is that any respectable Outfitter will take the time to clear their own trails....... and sometimes make hidden side trails to secret spots that the forest service may frown upon :-)
X2 cowhand, I've worked for a couple of outfitters that guide in wilderness areas and you would be amazed at what a 5 or 6 guides between the ages of 18 and 24 can accomplish with hand saws when they start in early spring or summer.
I went into the bob Marshall a few years ago in the summer on a pack trip. It seemed to me there were more hands than needed for the 8 guests. I fished during the day and many guests took day rides. Most of the hands went along on the day rides. The outfit spent the time clearing trails in front of the dudes. Pretty much killed two birds with one stone.
