Contributors to this thread:
I was going to title this "Jaq's Semi Live Girardia Attack" but figured I'd spare the grisly details.
I'm on the couch recovering from an awful cryptosporidium/Giardia attack that struck in the night. I had it once before when I was a Ranger and drank out of a "pure" spring. This time I was fishing all day on a stream loaded with beavers, moose, elk, other assorted vermin, large and small.
I didn't drink from the stream - know better. But I was careless in handling my Camelback spout with wet hands, snacking, etc. It struck around midnight and reminded me how a hunt could be totally ruined, even become life-threatening, by something so innocuous as a sip from a spring. It was a "both ends" experience all night. By morning I was so weak and dehydrated that I wouldn't have attempted a hike out of a spike camp. If I was alone in the woods with no meds I would have been in big trouble.
Also reminded me why I ALWAYS carry a scrip of generic Flagyl whenever I'm in the woods. Cheap insurance for only a $10 co-pay. Be careful out there. Little bugs can cause BIG problems..
Yikes. Had a bout with it once when I was younger backpacking. We used tablets in all the drinking water but its pretty easy to get some stream water inside you when fishing or filing water bottles.
I also have drank water quite a few times from smaller streams and got away with it when was young and dumb(er).
Hope it clears fast.
Yuck. Just yuck. Hope you feel better soon!
Yep been there done that. The flow that comes out of you is relentless. Hope you feel better soon Lou.
Dang. That's rough. I chew my fly fishing friends out for icing their beers down in the river. We go to all that effort and just a careless little error can cause big problems. Hope you get better.
What is everyone's go-to method for effectively treating river water for consumption?
As crappy as this situation is for Lou it's a great reminder for the rest of us! :) Get well soon Lou!
Had it once too, drank fresh rainwater in a screefield. Younger and dumber then. Lost 14 lbs. and cracked the toilet seat before the unidentified cryptosporidium was vanquished.
I hope you recover fast, Lou.
Katadyn Hiker water filter. Get well soon!!!
Thx for sparing us the semi-live version Lou!!
It BOGGLES my mind how many TV & online videos show guys drinking straight from a "fresh mountain stream". Doesn't matter where it is, it could be contaminated. Don't chance it, always treat/filter. And be careful just touching/washing/splashing.
I have never had it and know nothing about it. Will be out elk hunting it Aug. My dad and I always use the tablets. But we are really pretty careless. Was wondering how long it normally last? And will he medicine you mentioned work fast?
My Flagyl scrip was expired by a couple years, so after a quick Doc visit with my wife driving (me carrying a wastebasket the whole time) I got an updated Flagyl scrip and anti-nausea scrip by noon. Now 3 hours after dosing most of the excitement has stopped, and I just suck.
But if I was spiked-out a couple miles in and this hit I could have been in big trouble. This was a Hard, timely reminder. Carelessness can put us under, in many ways. I do this all the time on this stream.....
You watch the survival shows and the good ones stress water purification. If you've ever caught a bad bug (I had dysentery in Tanzania and lost 14+ lbs), you will realize that if you were alone in the woods with this ailment without the proper supplies, you are toast.
Again, chime-in for your go-to method for purifying river/stream water, especially where beavers are known to live. I'm looking to make a purchase for an upcoming hunt and trust your input more so than the articles available online.
KsRancher, everyone is affected differently and there are many different types of critters out there. For your basic run-of-the-mill giardiasis and some crypto, Flagyl will usually knock it back within the day if you get on it before your system is totally drained.
But some others take longer. A professor friend got elk fecal coliforms. That was a six month struggle and he lost a lot of weight, was laid up for days at a time. It would appear to be gone, then reappear without warning.
I use a Katadyn Hiker Pro for drinking water and have never had any issues.
I used to drink anything even spring runoff. So thankful I've never had an issue. Now I've got a Katadyn setup that is sweet. I like how everything that touches the water you filter remains separate from the equipment that touches the water you drink.
And I thought the night before the colonoscopy was bad.
I'm embarrassed to even tell this story..... in 1999 I caught Giardia in Wyoming while elk hunting. It was horrible.... At the time, I was trying to date this cute lab technician who worked in the hospital in Cheyenne. The Doctor asked me to bring back a "sample" and drop it off at the lab. After successfully filling up the one-pint "sample" bottle, I walked over to the laboratory in the hospital and rang the buzzer. Guess who greeted me and took the "sample"? Yep, the cute little lab tech that I was hoping to get to know a lil better..... She must have REALLY liked me, because we dated for awhile before we both moved on. I still remember my embarrassment handing her a CLEAR one-pint bottle of the most offensive liquid s*#t known to mankind. It was in a brown bag, and she reached inside and said "Oh hey, WAtcha got?"
Keven
Never had it state side but got a pretty good case of Montezuma's revenge in Mexico 15 years ago. I feel for you, Lou.; for awhile I was afraid I'd die, then I was afraid I wouldn't. It's pretty awful.
Just thankful there's no pictures this time! Get well soon!
I had something hit me last year. I don't think it was giardia but it was no fun. I killed my elk the first morning and had everything to town by 3:00pm. Ate dinner at my buddies house went to bed. The next day my other buddies arrived and I spent the day packing in with them. That night I started to feel a little bad. By morning I had went to the shi%$er about 5-6 times. I told my buddies I was staying in camp til I felt better. I'm not sure how many times I went to the sh%$ter that day but I would guess somewhere around 40 times. I have no idea where it was coming from because I didn't eat anything that day, just kept drinking water. One of the guys had a bottle of pepto so I was drinking that too. It started to subside the next day and I only went 12-15 times. I was fine by the next day. It was only coming out the bottom end for me, never once vomited. Have no idea what caused it.
After reading this I believe I will change the way I get water out of a stream. I generally just find a deeper spot that I can almost completely submerge my canteen and let the water run in. All of the water on the outside would not get the treatment from the pills. I appreciate this post. Might save my elk hunt
Hope you are feeling better. To answer the other question I think any product from Katadyne is really reliable. We use the big expedition model on our Gunnison trips and have never had anyone get sick. That represents literally thousands of user days and we use a lot in that hot canyon. I also use the Camelback ultra violet light personal device to lessen the work of supplying up to 12 people with safe water for 3 days. I have used it for over 5 years now and am very impressed. Between fishing and hunting I rely totally on purified water for at least 60 days a year and this gadget has never let me down. There is no pumping or squeezing, just dip in the water, press a button, wait 60 seconds and drink out of the bottle. One battery charge lasts me a week and I've used it hundreds of days without any issue. Probably the best gadget I've ever bought.... But most importantly, as others has said, make sure you use some method of purification.
I use a Katydyn Hiker pro. Have never had a problem.
You would be surprised how easily you can pick up Giardia from stream or river water. I know, I had it bad and NEVER, ever want to experience that again no matter what. Flagyl: (Metronidazole) works very well against this protazoan menace. While being very careful fly fishing the Big Wood River in Idaho for a few days and knowing there were plenty of beaver in it; I still managed to get infected. It took a few days to come on but wow how nasty it was. I was lucky I had a fly-fishing, Infectious Disease physician friend in Denver (where I was working that following week). He had it diagnosed and gave me Flagyl which saved my me from a whole lot of further grief. Nothing like being that sick away from home and working in a suite. I am sure the reason I picked it up is because on more than one occasion I used my teeth to snip wet mono-filament leader lines on that damn river.... Lesson learned.
Embrace the $hit! Sorry to hear, get better!
I drank from a creek once at about 13 years old. Had a buddy with me and he drank too. That was one duck hunt I wish I had never done ! We both got sick within an hour of one another and man it was bad. Closest thing I've ever had to it was food poisoning.
My ex got giardia once from the Maroon Bells. If you're anything like her situation, you'd have to rally to die. Get well quick, Lou. k
It was the violent barfing every 30 minutes that really took me down. I'm a hard puker. Just got up from a 3 hour nap and am sore all over. But at least the nausea is over and the other end is subsiding.
Thanks for the positive thoughts. If I had an elk down I don't know what would happen. Not good.
Had it once and since takes a few days after being exposed to kick in the illness did not impact my adventure but what a kick in the rear that took weeks to really recover from fully. Flagyl is a nasty Rx but the better of the two evils.
Sure it wasn't food poisoning? Or did you get tested? Either way, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy, Lou.
Lou, sometimes you're full of crap... but not this time :)
I did the same with poisonous mushrooms.. cross contamination is a real thing. Hope you heal up quick.
If you haven't done so should probably get tested to be sure. I haven't had giardia but I have had Clostridium diff. and Salmonella possibly due to outdoors exposure or contaminated food from when I traveled for work a lot.
Clostridium can only be cleared up by a specific anti-fungal. It causes a lot of pain and hallucinations caused by the toxin it produces. Kind-of like a out of body experience while leaking out both ends. However, its often confused with other infections . It also can be caused by misuse of antibiotics (e.g. out of date or partially inactivated). Folks who have pink-eye treatment sometimes end up with it as it changes the biological environment inside the digestive tract.
Salmonella is just plain painful, antibiotics don't help. It can be very serious, especially the fever, chills and organ , system damage.
Take Care
That's nasty no doubt. Will take extra caution this year during our elk hunt while fishing. Glad you're doing better since this morning.
--Mitch
Thanks Lou, you likely saved a couple asses this season.
"Clostridium can only be cleared up by a specific anti-fungal."
Clostridium is a bacteria, not a fungus. And there are two things that kill it, one of which is the Flagyl that he took.
John, this hit exactly like when I had it before (was tested that time) - more of a slow creep into a crescendo rather than the hard, fast night hit of food poisoning. I fished for several days before and could have contracted it from any of those outings since I was being sloppy with my handling of stuff.
I've had food poisoning a few times and seems like when everything gets cleaned out I'm ok. I'm 24 hours in now and still sick but impoving. Food poisoning was a thought but Gail and I ate the same stuff all day and nothing that could be questionable.
Either way, not taking any chances. I can live with a week of Flagyl and no beer.
Flagyl is a poison that kills the bugs in his digestive tract. If it were a food poisoning, the drug wouldn't make a bit of difference.
BTW, I did go in to my Doc this morning, and based on my symptoms and exposure history over the past few days she believed it was most likely a water-borne bacteria vs. something else. We compared symptoms vs. her recent bout with food poisoning and mine seemed pretty classic crypto-giardia to her. She wanted to get me on the meds (metro, ondansetron) right away rather than waiting for results from a stool test.
Clostridium difficile is a easily spread fecal bacteria which can be found in normal gut flora. Left unchecked by its commensal neighbors (majority of gut bacteria) it can overgrown and release specific toxins which destroy intestinal mucosa, otherwise known as (pseudomembraeous colitis). This condition was historically related to effects of using broad spectrum antibiotics over time which nocks out "good" gut flora leaving C. diff to overgrow unchecked. It can rapidly lead to tissue death of the small bowel and may require surgical resection to save the patient. In recent years this bug has become more toxic and widespread even in healthy young adults. Used to be seen mostly in hospitalized patients but not any more. The current strains are worse especially since some patients have many recurrences. It is usually treated with either flagyl or vancomycin and even stool transplants (not kidding) have worked very well to re-establish normal gut flora. Samonella is a bacteria which causes food poisoning from its toxin that's released in the gut and can be severe but mostly causes a couple days of GI distress, diarrhea, etc. it can be treated successfully with proper antibiotics.
1991 Wy. elk hunt in the Bridger Wilderness Area outside of Pinedale.
Made it home got the meat in the freezer and gear put away. Stomach gurgled and now you know the rest of the story. 33lbs. lost in 5 days. Never, never want that again!!
Dammit Lou, $h!tty situation for sure ;-). Get well buddy. Never had Giardia but will definitely continue taking the proper steps to make sure I don't catch that bug! Yikes. I've always used my steri-pen light purifier with good outcome but may start using a Katadyne system first and then the steri-pen. 2 step system is probably worth it
Jaq,
Were you diagnosed by a medical professional as having Giardia or is this a self diagnosis?
Thanks for sharing Lou. And thanks for not sharing too much.
This is a great reminder that we all need to check our filters this season. I'm going to throw away my old Sawyer filters and order new ones. This year I'll get the quick disconnect (to prevent cross contamination) that I was too lazy to mess with last year. It's cheap insurance.
Lou hope you get well soon. I thought about Girardia last week after taking a mouthful of lake water. I jumped in with the dog to help cool it off. My plan was to keep the dog above water as I jumped in off the boat deck. Well I failed miserably. The dog went under and I sucked in a bunch of water. Not good LOL. I'm surprised more people don't get sick from swimming in lakes.
Thanks for a very informative thread. This brings up the question: is it even safe to swim in a lake or river? If you're swimming, water is touching your mouth. Can you get it in the Midwest as easily as you can in the mountains? Or are the odds of contracting girardia extremely low? That is, unless you're one of the unfortunate ones who have experienced it. Just curious.
I've used a Katydyn hiker while hunting and Katydyn basecamp at camp. The basecamp is very nice because it makes water for a large group without any effort.
But... The katydyn filters can and do plug. This is pretty common in the Boundary Waters canoe area in Minnesota. Even crystal clear water can plug your filter. You might want to bring a Sawyer microfilter as a backup. If needed, you can do a field conversion to install the Sawyer. (this is a known issue for Katydyn. it is why they came out with a new filter style/model)
Thanks for taking the time to post this Lou. I hope you have a quick recovery. I have never had or use a purifier. I have always boiled my water but I have never stopped to think about cross contamination with water on my hands, outside of the containers or even washing my face off with a rag from a stream. I always bite fishing line! Not anymore. Guess I have been pretty lucky. This puts things in a new perspective for me. Because of this thread I will pay extreme attention to it from now on. Get well soon.
It's all relative. If you feel safe driving a motor vehicle daily, then you would probably consider it safe to swim in rivers or lakes. There is a chance something might happen to you in every activity you do. I would bet that the contraction rate doing what Lou did is much lower than the direct consumption of contaminated water, but it never hurts to take precautions. I bet Lou will be real careful about what he does for a while, but that will probably fade with time.
I believe giardia is more associated with the swimming mammals. Crytposporidium, which is very similar, I believe is more associated with land walkers. You could come in contact with either in the Midwest, although I don't believe I have ever heard of a giardia case. Of course, very few here would drink the surface water, which is pretty common out west. There have been numerous cryptosporidium outbreaks though when concentrations of the parasite become elevated in one lake or another.
Day 2: the nausea is mostly gone, now pretty much just painful intestinal distress. Really weak. Thankful for small favors. Today's scheduled distance ride on the bike ain't going to happen.
Franzen is right - I fish several times a week in this area, which has a high number of beavers, muskrat, moose crapping in the water. Geese too, and they carry it. I'm always careful about anything I drink but careless about cross-contamination. The odds are obviously pretty low from this type of activity.
But my point of this thread was to illustrate how contracting something like this from anything (ex.. drinking out of a stream) can turn a hunt into a really bad situation if it happens in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some people are apparently immune to it. Others are not. Best to use basic precautions since filtration systems are so simple and portable these days.
First Need filter......best there is. And you can back wash it. Not cheap. Not tiny. But freakin' effective.
I can see it now.
Sitka markets Optifade camo latex gloves
I still can't believe that I never contracted anything in my younger days when I just drank the water without regard to where I was. Out west, BC, Alberta, Alaska....and more. Some rivers I clearly recall had a bunch of beaver too. Just plain stupid coupled with some ignorance. I am extra careful now! Timely thread.
Ah come on LOU! You're so full of crap, piSS, and vinegar that you should have hardly noticed any difference. HA! Get well soon!
A couple years back we caught a nice mess of trout in NM. I cleaned them all up and we grilled some, also made a small bowl of ceviche.... It was delicious. Three of us ate the ceviche, myself, mother in law, and sister in law. A couple days later, just as we arrived home, both the M.I.L. and S.I.L. became ill. Doctors said giardia, I found it odd that I ate FAR more than they did but I didn't get sick. Wasn't a fun few days for them. Guess I got lucky or the large volume of bourbon I consumed that evening killed it all :) lol
Bourbon ah yes one of the best protozacides :~)
I quess the ole one liner, "You are full of crap" doesn't currently apply to you Lou. I hope you get to feeling better
I could stand to lose some weight......but I'll pass on this method.
Yuck.....moss and god knows what filled mucky water....not good.
Yuck.....moss and god knows what filled mucky water....not good.
Sketchy water......I would filter this but still pools are not my first choice.
Sketchy water......I would filter this but still pools are not my first choice.
Damn Good water at the source coming out of sandy ground well filtered.....I'd chance it but filter it anyway since I have the filter to use.
Damn Good water at the source coming out of sandy ground well filtered.....I'd chance it but filter it anyway since I have the filter to use.
Examples......from Capt'n Obvious. LOL
Have had it twice, both from Alaskan adventures.
I swear my guts are forever affected. I've never been the same...
It's bad when your mos important adult beverage of the day is Metamucil!
I've had it and back east they don't know what to look for. Was misdiagnosed once, went back a week later. Started on Flaygl, finished and felt better, 2 weeks later I had to do it all over. didn't kill all the bastards the first time. I got mine biting the tag ends of fishing knots at a pond frequented by Canadian geese.
This is starting to worry me. I bite my line, get a dip with hands I put in the river, etc.... Never realized how easily this could happen. God Bless men
I know this isnt exactly the same but it is still a warning of whats out there. I shot my first deer in 1988. While gutting my first deer a sliced the heck out of my hand while I was still in the cavity. I didnt think twice about it. Two days later I had an unbelieveable fever. Three straight days with a high fever, nausea and diarrhea and I thought I was going to die. When I went to the doc he definitely thought I had gotten a parasite from my blood mixing with the deers blood. It was the worst 3 to 4 days of sickness I have ever experienced. I had a headache and weakness for weeks.I forget the drugs he had me on.
I once picked up a parasite when gutting a bear, taking dips during the process, eating a Snickers, etc.. Thought it was food poisoning but it didn't stop like food poisoning would. Terrible couple days in elk camp until I got my partner to drive me to a clinic an hour away. I really was afraid I might die that time.
BTW, I'm slowly improving after 36 hours on the Flagyl but my gut still isn't right and I'm real weak. This would suck if I had an elk down in the woods.
Been dipping for years here in Colorado with out any issue. I use Iodine tabs for all water treatment.
Well, wouldn't be the first time those beavers nearly ruined a man's life..... likely not the last.....
Thanks for the heads up.... I always filter, but probably kind of careless about handling all that stuff around the water and maybe contaminating it.
Don't think you were, but hope you were on a diet so some good may come of it..... =D
get well soon.....
sorry for your "experience". Question: how do you approach the MD about a scrip for the Flagyl? Any issues getting them to prescribe for an anticipated, rather than "real" infection?
Some scary stuff. I was in Brazil once and ate some beef...or I think it was beef. Could have been roadkill dog for all I know. I went back to the ship and laid in bed for I don't know how long. My stomach felt like someone was twisting it with pliers. Couldn't lay straight it hurt so bad. I remember the corpsman coming in and trying to wake me up and check on me. Stomach bugs ain't fun.
Curious as to why she didn't just use Tindamax for a single dose if it was truly Giardia, unless she was hedging her bet by thinking it may be something else as well.
Either way, regardless which bug caused the violent episode, its a bad deal. It can happen fast and violently, and I can only imagine it happening in a spike camp. Can you imagine the conversation on a life flight out because you were s******g yourself too violently to make it back to the trailhead?
InReach............worth it. :) Get well soon Lou!!!! I may need you to help me haul a bull outta my hell hole in 36 or so more days..........
TEmbry, I'm sure she was hedging her bet. She knows me well and knows my lifestyle. I could have picked up any of an assortment of bugs doing what I do. Just got back from a week elk scouting and fishing in WY (is tasting elk poop for freshness a bad thing??) then stocked fish, then fished my beaver and moose-infested rivers for four days. I'm not very careful about water contact. As you know, Flagyl is a "catch-all" that kills everything.
As far as a preventative scrip, she knows me well enough and knows how much time I spend alone in the woods that it's not an issue. She even asks me if I need a refill for an expired scrip when I go in for an annual physical. $5 co-pay on my plan. Flagyl isn't something anyone would "abuse" without a really good reason. You can't drink alcohol while on it, for one thing, and it generally makes you feel like crap....
Good to know you are feeling better. Hope you get over this soon.
Thanks - feeling a little better every day, but still not "right".
One thing I forgot to mention is my Doc said people who take acid-blockers (Pepcid, Nexium, Omeprazole, etc.) are much more susceptible to internal parasites. She said where others pay pass them with no effects, they stick to those with acid blockers. Makes sense. I take Nexium once a day. So does she, and she's had parasites a few times. I've probably been really lucky I didn't get them more often.
Lou points out how critical it is to have a Primary Care Doctor that knows your health and your lifestyle. It certainly helps when things go wrong or you need to be referred to a specialist. My two cents is find that relationship. Get well big guy!
Yeah. Do you know the difference between the shits and the runs.. It's the runs when you have to run for it but it's the shits when you don't make it
sounds like you have a great Doc. I've only had a parasite one time and it took lawyers, not doctors, to get rid of it.
Holy SH!t. Hope you are feeling better. Going to call the doc and get the Flagyl to take with me this fall.
Jaq. That should be your next article for Bowhunter magazine. Drinking water safety. Hows that for a title.
Hope you are doing better Lou!
Always worried when fishing and putting my line in my mouth to cut the line. Been lucky so far.
Just about as bad as getting gall bladder removed.a year ago and you still get the wanabi trots sometimes.
This is one persistent little varmint. After three full days on the Flagyl I mustered up enough nerve to eat some solid food (soup and sandwich) was up all night with a relapse. If I was on a serious hunt it would be totally wrecked.
Back to Gatorade. The adventure continues.
Hey Lou, just saw this thread (I suck at checking in over here these days) hope you a speedy recovery buddy.
http://www.mccoylabs.com/index.php/news/93-lab-news/108-cryptosporidium-giardia-testing looks like a ten liter sample when testing water
I thought this was about that Cooking Lady Giada ...
Lou didn't have the cooking lady Giardia only comes from dirty beavers.
Jaquomo, how are you feeling? All cleared up?
I am on Flagyl & Cipro for Diverticulitis right now as I type. No one would take these for fun.
Yep, it was over in a couple days. I went back into my Doc for a physical last week and she told me that often only two days of Flagyl is needed to kill the little buggers.
Steve, I have diverticulosis and about every 3-4 years have a flare up. I carry a scrip of Cipro along with Flagyl just in case. My mother-in-law nearly died from an attack of that. They chopped out a chunk of colon and saved her but she was in the hospital for a month.
Jaq- I have it as well. I have had as many as 7-8 attacks per year. Since adding a lot of fiber it's down to one every year or so. Anyone who hasn't had an attack can't imagine just how painful that they are. I was going for surgery until mine became less frequent. I know the signs and get on it immediately when it flares. I always have Cipro and Flagyl on hand.
