Black Gold Sights - Pure Gold
Lesson about net experts worth sharing.
Contributors to this thread:
DartonJager 21-Aug-17
Matt 21-Aug-17
Jaquomo 22-Aug-17
Wood 22-Aug-17
oldgoat 22-Aug-17
Glunt@work 22-Aug-17
WV Mountaineer 22-Aug-17
Olink 22-Aug-17
Errorhead 22-Aug-17
sticksender 22-Aug-17
Ironbow 22-Aug-17
x-man 22-Aug-17
Jaquomo 22-Aug-17
Russ Koon 22-Aug-17
Bullhound 22-Aug-17
Vonfoust 22-Aug-17
APauls 22-Aug-17
Beendare 22-Aug-17
ohiohunter 22-Aug-17
JTV 22-Aug-17
DartonJager 23-Aug-17
TD 23-Aug-17
Pigsticker 23-Aug-17
Matt 24-Aug-17
Pigsticker 24-Aug-17
Jethro 24-Aug-17
From: DartonJager
I bought a 2014 Darton DS3714 that was untouched NIB last year and finally got around to shooting it this year. I bought it out of pure nessesity as my other bows were all 60-70lb DW and my shoulders just won't take it anymore so I opted for a 50-60lb DW bow. I'm no expert but I tuned it well enough to stack arrows out to 45 yards. Then I put on my first broad head and my POI changed to 6" left and 2" down. My DW was set at 55-56lbs and I was assured by several so called experts that my arrows were not over spined and these same experts as well as others at websites like AT were confident in telling me with todays modern compounds and carbon arrows that being over spined is actually not that important and the proper spine for a any given bow is very forgiving. Well I double and triple checked my set up and tune for everything I could think of but cam timing as I don't own the equipment needed to do so. I found a archery pro shop that also sold Dartons and I went there seeking help. If some recall I reported about this shop in a previous post giving it a stellar review. I'm speaking of River Side Archery in Sumuva Resorts Indiana. The owner looked over my bow said all looked good, then checked the timing of my cams said they were fine. Asked what arrows I shot and he said well you are over spined, I said but so and so said blah, blah, blah. He simply handed me a correctly splined arrow and although not where I was aiming, my field points and BH's impacted under 2" from each other and this was in a quite strong cross wind at 20 yards. Fast forward almost 3 weeks and I finally got to do some real shooting in low/no wind conditions and after only three sight adjustments my FP's and BH's are consistently hitting less than 2" from each other out to 30 yards. My shoulders started to let me know it was time to call it a day so I stopped there. I was utterly surprised how wrong so many so called self proclaimed archery experts could be dead wrong about proper spine and how it will affect arrow flight once BH's get involved. I wanted to keep using the same arrows I had when I was shooting at a 62-65lbs DW, but as I found out that just was not possible. The pro shop owner showed me Easton's on line arrow selection system and sure enough had I consulted that instead of internet gurus I would have saved myself $80 in arrows I cant use and considerable time in trying to improperly spined arrows to shoot well. Should've known who would know more about arrows Easton or faceless internet sources. Lesson learned.

From: Matt
So what you are saying is one time there was this one guy who did one thing once...and it proved the internet wrong?

Food for thought, but owning a pro shop doesn't preclude one from posting on the internet...

From: Jaquomo
I don't trust anyone who posts advice or information on the internet.

From: Wood
Stiff arrows can shoot well but tuning is more critical, including timing. If you want to be more precise than "Joe Pieplate" you need some kind of press and draw board.

From: oldgoat
Out of curiosity what kind of rest and release are you using?

From: Glunt@work
Information isn't better or worse because its on the internet. Just easier to get.

You still have a tuning issue of sorts.

From: Olink
The OP doesn't provide enough information to allow someone to draw any conclusions. What is your draw length, length of the arrows, tip weight, and spine of the arrows (before and after)?

From: Errorhead
What works for some, does not work for all.

From: sticksender
Something else to keep in mind.....tuning or equipment selection often times gets the blame, when shooting form is the real culprit. The key is to be open-minded and commit to solving the real problem. I find it is wise to shoot broad-heads often, not just "once a year to check". Proper form can easily degrade over time if you only shoot fp's, while groups remain fine, but you won't get away with that if you constantly shoot fbbh's.

From: Ironbow

Does that mean we shouldn't trust your advice? ;-)

From: x-man
I've noticed this a few times in my extensive experience as a bow mechanic and tuner.

Some guys just could not get their groups together unless I gave them a light spined arrow shaft. The strange thing is, I could shoot their bows with a stiffer arrow and get the groups together. Turns out that if the bow is torqued enough, a light spined arrow will flex it's way around the torque when using a drop away rest. So if I adjusted the centershot beyond what it tuned for the shooting machine, both FP and BH arrows flew the same. They both flew badly, but to the same basic POI. This is why they are "close" but still not exactly the same POI.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but it seems that all this shop did was sell you some more arrows to bandaid your original issue. A good salesman indeed.

From: Jaquomo
Ironbow, absolutely don't trust me. I don't even trust me, and I live with me!

From: Russ Koon
May be several other lessons worth sharing in there somewhere, including the assumption that your brief tuning efforts with the new Darton were perfect, as verified by the fact that you could "stack arrows at 45 yards", and would need no finer tuning to bring FP and BH POI's together.

In fact, tuning for BH and FP agreement should be the last word on tuning, and should take preference over the tuning that allowed you to "stack" FP's at 45 yards.

Also, I have never seen anyone suggest that shooting over-spined arrows could be expected to result in shared BH and FP impact points without some slight retuning to adjust for the spine change. Such tuning adjustment would normally be part of such a switch in spine being shot.

And, your switch to the 50-60 DW bow was probably unnecessary, since most other bows could have been very safely used at that much reduced DW and more. The newer bows don't even lose noticeable efficiency with such a reduction in DW, the way the old laminated-limb bows with higher drag loads and less pre-stress did a couple generations ago.

But the economy thanks you for your contributions.

Good luck with the shoulders. Still regaining strength in my left one seven years after a stroke that knocked out my left side. Cranked my 70# single-cams down to under twenty to draw only as a training device, then to just under thirty to shoot in the back yard (lowest DW that the string would stay on the cam after release). Working my way back ever since and shooting at 53# now, expecting to add about five more before season. Have shot my same Easton 340's at every stage of the recovery, with minor sight and VERY minor tuning changes as needed.

From: Bullhound
OP, sounds like that "pro shop owner" was a good salesman!!! From the information you provided, along with a couple of your comments, I'd guess you are no closer to having a tuned bow, than prior to meeting that "salesman"!

From: Vonfoust
An original post about how he's not going to trust internet advice, followed by a bunch of internet advice. :>)

From: APauls
I took one look at that massive paragraph and couldn't handle it ;)

From: Beendare
Darton I shortened your initial post; "I couldn't get it to work so it must be wrong"

Too funny...'Pot calling the kettle black' my mom used to say. ___ FWIW, there are many of us here that know a stiffer spined arrow works just fine in a modern compound with shoot through riser. If the dang arrow mnfrs would bring their arrow charts into the 20th century...we wouldn't get so many of these underspined archers!

From: ohiohunter
I wanna know if he wants to salvage some of his $80 loss, whats that pile of useless arrows gonna sell for?

From: JTV
BTW, its SPINED, not SPLINED .... and being a tad over spined isnt a bad thing...if your on the border of two arrows, go with the heavier SPINED arrow, esp. when shooting fixed heads...also knowing how to tune may have helped some also....

From: DartonJager
My bad I've been gone from regular visits from Bowsite for several years I guess in that time a once friendly sight populated with respectful, courteous and helpful members has become judging from the caliber or lack there of the responses posted here somewhat infested with would seem the exact opposite. Strange how the anonymity of the internet allows some to express themselves in a manner unlikely to be repeated in person.

From: TD
" several so called experts..."

" I was utterly surprised how wrong so many so called self proclaimed archery experts could be dead wrong"

The OP is peppered with insinuations like that, and you wonder why some get their hackles up? Your whole post is accusatory without knowing who you were accusing. I recognize the names of some very good bow mechanics above.... with many years of experience that have helped hundreds of people. Did you even try to move the rest and bring the groups together, the essence of tuning? I see no mention of it, only that you knew it was "tuned" because you had "good groups" with FPs. If it won't tune by moving the rest with those shafts there is something else going on. It's not those shafts.

These "so called experts" above.... were right before and are still right. Essentially the weaker shaft is covering up for something else. You're "tuning" a compound as one would tune to fix issues that normally come up with trad gear.

From: Pigsticker
I have seen it today on elk shot placement thread. Why would you try a lower probability heart shot and play with the front leg and shoulder or drop low and miss all together over a less risky double lung.

From: Matt
"My bad I've been gone from regular visits from Bowsite for several years I guess in that time a once friendly sight populated with respectful, courteous and helpful members has become judging from the caliber or lack there of the responses posted here somewhat infested with would seem the exact opposite. Strange how the anonymity of the internet allows some to express themselves in a manner unlikely to be repeated in person."

There is a certain irony that a number of respectful, courteous and helpful members took exception to your judging - and that is on us.

You essentially posted on a subject you don't show a great command of and claimed people who do were wrong because you met someone who - and I will virtually guaranty you this - sold you on a band aid rather than identify your tuning issue and fixing it.

From: Pigsticker
Darton, I have reduced weight for the same reasons and since I had loads of carbon express 250 arrows. I never switched and dropped to as much as 18lbs below original draw weight and the arrow worked well.

I would like to clarify that my comment was yes we have internet experts and I see them every day. I would also say that Bowsite truly has loads of experts that cannot be found elsewhere.

X-man has provided me advice that I could not fined elsewhere on two occasions. His explanation above on an underspined arrow being more forgiving speaks volumes to his command of this subject.

From: Jethro
"Strange how the anonymity of the internet allows some to express themselves in a manner unlikely to be repeated in person."

That was my exact thought when I read your OP.

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