Mathews Inc.
Another Grizzly Attack
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
Griz34 05-Sep-17
Dyjack 06-Sep-17
LBshooter 06-Sep-17
LBshooter 06-Sep-17
IslandSnapShooter 06-Sep-17
houndy65 06-Sep-17
Fuzzy 06-Sep-17
ELKMAN 06-Sep-17
Franzen 06-Sep-17
ground hunter 06-Sep-17
BK 06-Sep-17
olebuck 06-Sep-17
MF 06-Sep-17
stealthycat 06-Sep-17
LBshooter 06-Sep-17
ohiohunter 06-Sep-17
LBshooter 06-Sep-17
jeck66 06-Sep-17
Rut Nut 06-Sep-17
Sage Buffalo 06-Sep-17
akbow 06-Sep-17
LBshooter 06-Sep-17
Shawn 06-Sep-17
Ironbow 06-Sep-17
akbow 06-Sep-17
LBshooter 06-Sep-17
akbow 06-Sep-17
LBshooter 06-Sep-17
Blacktail Bob 06-Sep-17
Zbone 06-Sep-17
LBshooter 06-Sep-17
TD 07-Sep-17
Rut Nut 07-Sep-17
Zbone 07-Sep-17
writer 07-Sep-17
APauls 07-Sep-17
Rut Nut 07-Sep-17
LBshooter 07-Sep-17
DL 07-Sep-17
TD 07-Sep-17
drycreek 07-Sep-17
Tracker 07-Sep-17
Tracker 07-Sep-17
SBH 07-Sep-17
Rut Nut 08-Sep-17
Thornton 09-Sep-17
md5252 09-Sep-17
Pyrannah 09-Sep-17
md5252 09-Sep-17
Scrappy 09-Sep-17
bullelk 10-Sep-17
Bow9 10-Sep-17
LBshooter 10-Sep-17
Barty1970 11-Sep-17
arky 11-Sep-17
antlerman 11-Sep-17
Zbone 13-Sep-17
DartonJager 06-Oct-17
Linecutter 06-Oct-17
Fuzzy 06-Oct-17
Ermine 06-Oct-17
Beendare 06-Oct-17
Fulldraw1972 06-Oct-17
Matt 07-Oct-17
Jaquomo 07-Oct-17
beaneater 07-Oct-17
Ucsdryder 07-Oct-17
Jaquomo 07-Oct-17
mfg bowyer 07-Oct-17
Barty1970 09-Oct-17
Ucsdryder 09-Oct-17
Franzen 09-Oct-17
GF 09-Oct-17
Fuzzy 10-Oct-17
Matt 10-Oct-17
GF 10-Oct-17
TD 10-Oct-17
bill brown 10-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 10-Oct-17
Colo_Lee 10-Oct-17
Matt 10-Oct-17
DartonJager 11-Oct-17
TD 11-Oct-17
Fuzzy 11-Oct-17
DartonJager 11-Oct-17
rick allison 11-Oct-17
Beendare 11-Oct-17
Ucsdryder 11-Oct-17
John Mikulecky 11-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 11-Oct-17
Matt 11-Oct-17
houndy65 12-Oct-17
Beendare 12-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 12-Oct-17
houndy65 12-Oct-17
Matt 12-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 12-Oct-17
Rcarter 12-Oct-17
TD 13-Oct-17
Fuzzy 13-Oct-17
Heartshot 13-Oct-17
Irishman 13-Oct-17
GF 13-Oct-17
Scar Finga 13-Oct-17
Beendare 13-Oct-17
From: Griz34
05-Sep-17

Griz34's Link
It seems to me this is around the same area that Todd Orr was attacked or am I mistaken? I think I remember him being treated at the Ennis hospital also.

From: Dyjack
06-Sep-17
That's so brutal.. I can't even imagine. Gave me chills when I read "I could hear bones crunching". I'm glad he's doing okay.

From: LBshooter
06-Sep-17
Ouch!! Glad he's alive and recovering. A new weapon just on the market for you griz country hunters, check out the Mossberg 590 shock wave. a legal sawed off shotgun that comes in at 26 in overall, yes a sawed off. The barrel is 14 inches and it's legal. 5 rounds of 12 ga that's actually a carrier able weapon.

From: LBshooter
06-Sep-17
Ouch!! Glad he's alive and recovering. A new weapon just on the market for you griz country hunters, check out the Mossberg 590 shock wave. a legal sawed off shotgun that comes in at 26 in overall, yes a sawed off. The barrel is 14 inches and it's legal. 5 rounds of 12 ga that's actually a carrier able weapon.

06-Sep-17
So with a shotgun what's the best defense load for griz? 000 buck shot? Or solid slug?

From: houndy65
06-Sep-17
12 gauge slug, all 000buck shot would is psss them off even worth. A 41 mag, 44 mag or now I carry a glock 20, 10mm along with bear spray. If a grizzly is going to charge you more than likely your only going to have time get in a defensive position to shoot (pistol is your best option in the mountains or bear spray) or use the bear spray.

From: Fuzzy
06-Sep-17
I disagree on the 000 buck. At close range (10 feet) with a head or chest shot buck would act almost as a solid.

From: ELKMAN
06-Sep-17
The shotgun is ALWAYS the way to go in close quarters with a bear. They have hard time chewing with half their face missing...

From: Franzen
06-Sep-17
Todd Orr was on the Madison Range side of the valley as I recall. Gravelly Range is on the west side of the Madison Valley and the Madison Range is on the east side. I hunted the Gravelly/Snowcrest/Greenhorn complex a couple years ago, and there was talk of lots of griz active in the area. When you are an NR, you never know if someone is trying to blow smoke or not, but we did believe there were at least some griz in the area. Attacks on hunters seem to be getting all too frequent. Hopefully some common sense will come to the judges that end up deciding whether a season is imposed or not, but I doubt it. Glad the guy is most likely going to be fine other than some nasty scars.

06-Sep-17
I am no expert, but I have a neighbor who survived a brown bear attack on Sitka Island in Alaska, a long time ago,,,,, when it comes to hand guns, he said the only way to go is a revolver or single action, because in all reality, your getting one or two shots, so a semi auto who not be his choice,,,,,, also he agrees on the shotgun, at close point and shoot situation....

I was lucky, two younger hunters, shot over and near the bear, that was on him, and he got off, and left,,,,,, quite a story, and his scars, tell about one terrifying day.....

If I was going to carry a handgun I would carry a 454 Casulll, for my one shot,,,,,,, that is something that we can talk abut, but nothing is guaranteed,,,,,,hope I am never there

From: BK
06-Sep-17
Whats really sad is go read some of the "viewer reactions" comments listed at the bottom of the story of Griz34's Link to see what the world is dealing with. A bunch of snowflake morons.

From: olebuck
06-Sep-17
i bought the Glock 20 10mm as well for bear protection.

its fast, heavy, and packs a punch. no hammer, no safety, just draw and start pinching the trigger until it goes click.

sometimes - most of the time the bear has the advantage, if the bears is close, he can get you if he wants too.

Glad the guy is okay, it would be a brutal way to go......

From: MF
06-Sep-17
I talked to a biologist in Alaska some years back. He preferred a shotgun with alternating rounds of buckshot and slugs, said he like Brenneke slugs.

From: stealthycat
06-Sep-17
I was just commenting the other day that grizzly attacks on more than 1 hunters is so rare ... and this one did.

From: LBshooter
06-Sep-17

LBshooter's embedded Photo
LBshooter's embedded Photo
The new bear medicine,

From: ohiohunter
06-Sep-17
For what those shotguns are I was amazed by how high their price point was. You're better off sawing off an 870 and buy the grip. I think I've seen these on sale for 350-400.

From: LBshooter
06-Sep-17
You can't saw off a shotgun to less than 18.5 inches, it's ilegal. This gun is classified as "other" on a 4473. It's not a handgun nor a shotgun in the eyes of the ATF, it's an other lol. 26 in overall.

From: jeck66
06-Sep-17
We archery hunted the Gravelly's 7 yrs ago. It was my first archery elk hunt. During my research of the area, some people said that grizzlies were a problem in the area, others said there are so few of them around. The bear biologist told me there was maybe one or two roaming the mountainside. Just be smart and we shouldn't have any problems. I was nervous as hell hunting out there. Staying in a tent at the top of the mountain made for interesting nights of sleep. It wasn't that much fun... but it was still enjoyable. Two hunters were attacked in separate maulings by different grizzlies during our 12 day hunt. This happened within a 10-mile radius of where we were hunting. Some guys hunting in our area saw a sow grizzly with two cubs about a mile from our tent. It was amazing... for only 1 or 2 grizzlies on the mountain, there were a lot of sightings and maulings during our hunt.

We did see some elk and almost called in a very nice 6x6. The wind swirled and he busted us. It was beautiful country, but I would not go back archery hunting. I do not like bears!

From: Rut Nut
06-Sep-17

Rut Nut's Link
After seeing that head wound, I was surprised he didn't bleed out on the mountain! Then I read this: "His partner had some blood coagulating powder and they made a turbin, stopping the bleeding in about 15 min"

This is one of the reasons I started carrying Quckclot in my small first aid kit while hunting. Could also come in handy in case of an accidental "stick" with a broadhead.

From: Sage Buffalo
06-Sep-17
I knew a guide who hunted those areas and he said, "If you shot something it was like a CrossFit challenge as you had to move so fast before the grizz's were on your kill."

No thanks. I'm too chunky now and look like a jelly donut.

I'll stick to less manly areas...

From: akbow
06-Sep-17

akbow's embedded Photo
akbow's embedded Photo
akbow's embedded Photo
Cleaning the wounds
akbow's embedded Photo
Cleaning the wounds
akbow's embedded Photo
The next day
akbow's embedded Photo
The next day
I had a run in with a sow/cub back in 2004 here in AK. I had a shotgun loaded with slugs and she took one in the chest, proceeded to knock me down, tried coming at my head but I was able to keep her away with my feet until I got another shell in the chamber and put another into her chest at point blank range. I put a third in her as she was wheeling around biting at the burnt hair on her chest. She made it another 15 yards after that. And this was a smallish ~7.5' sow and she took three slugs before she went down. I don't believe in bear spray. Hopefully these pics work.

From: LBshooter
06-Sep-17
I would think the first round of #4 buck shot and then followed by slugs figure the buck would more than likely blind her.

From: Shawn
06-Sep-17
akbow, if she took one in the head do you think it would of helped? Never been in your situation but I would think you would try for the first one in the noggin. In my book you would be the only expert that has posted on here. Glad you are here to tell the story!! Shawn

From: Ironbow
06-Sep-17
akbow,, That is a real life example. Thanks for sharing.

From: akbow
06-Sep-17
Shawn, I didn't even have time to aim. She came out of the brush at 40 yards and I had the shotgun slung over my back with my bow in hand. By the time I dropped the bow, jacked in a shell, she was right there. I didn't even get it to my shoulder. But, yes, I think a head shot would have stopped her unless it glanced off somehow. Luckily (or unluckily, depending on how you look at it) the first shot hit breastbone - bounced off and busticated her shoulder. Probably the only reason I was able to keep her away from my head was because she was a tripod. Even luckier would have been a kill shot to the head, but I could have also missed completely--so, I am sticking with lucky.

From: LBshooter
06-Sep-17
What slugs did you have in the gun?

From: akbow
06-Sep-17
LB--I don't recall them being anything special. I have Brenneke's now that I know there is a difference. I had never researched it before that incident. I think the Brenneke's would have done more damage and maybe that first shot wouldn't have glanced off?

From: LBshooter
06-Sep-17
Good choice!!

06-Sep-17
My buddy and I had to kill one that was wounded and charging many years ago. He had a 375 Mag and I had a 12 gauge with slugs. I was in front, so it was my first shot that knocked it off its feet. I think I hit it in the chest. It was still wiggling so my buddy emptied the 375 into it. It stopped wiggling pretty quickly. Like akbow, I prefer I shotgun. I don’t think it matters too much at close range whether its slugs or buck shot, either will work.

From: Zbone
06-Sep-17
LBshooter - "You can't saw off a shotgun to less than 18.5 inches, it's illegal. You can't saw off a shotgun to less than 18.5 inches, it's illegal"

You sure about that? I know long guns have to be longer 26" overall, but are you sure it's 18-1/2" shotgun barrel length rather than 18"... Have seen factory manufactured shotguns barrels at 18"... I was told 18" and longer for shotguns and 16" or longer for rifle barrels... Anybody know for sure... Also I questioned how do they actually measure a barrel length and was told by measuring a rod down the barrel with chamber closed is the actual considered length...

From: LBshooter
06-Sep-17
Your right it's 18 anything g shorter you need class 3.

From: TD
07-Sep-17
Thing about a shotgun is they are designed and built to point n' shoot. Fast. Natural motion. Very few folks practice shooting clay birds at a trap or skeet range with a .375..... although in the heat of the moment I'd imagine you'd swing it and point it as much like a shotgun as you could. Seen some videos of rifle guys shooting big bears at very close range. But shotguns are made for it. Hard cast buckshot or hard cast slugs.... I've heard proponents of both.... even those who alternate in the magazine.

I still like Steve H's solution with the .458 socom..... =D

And after reading that story.... I just did some serious research on adding a blood clotting powder or gauze to my first aid kit. They are really pretty light and pack well it seems. A good many uses for it in everything from this to falling on a broadhead to slipping with a knife. A long ways from any help in these cases. As they stated.... might have saved his life.

Seems the spray from his buddy may not have stopped the initial charge??? Might have driven it off in the end though....

From: Rut Nut
07-Sep-17
TD- after reading this story, I am going to get a SECOND QuickClot sponge for my first aid kit! ;-)

From: Zbone
07-Sep-17
LBshooter - "check out the Mossberg 590 shock wave. a legal sawed off shotgun that comes in at 26 in overall, yes a sawed off. The barrel is 14 inches and it's legal."

Now I'm confused, how are those 14" shotgun barrels legal?

From: writer
07-Sep-17
The #4 buck would blind the bear? That's assuming you not only hit the bear, but hit it square int he face with a pattern that's likely to be the size of a saucer in the split-second you have to shoot.. Anybody else wonder how accurate most would be, in that situation, with one of those Mossbergs, shooting with two hands and no stock against your shoulder? Most of us shoot where we're looking with a stock on a shotgun, even without really trying. Those I know who've tried with just the pistol-style grip have been inaccurate, even in practice.

From: APauls
07-Sep-17
Seeing as this bear came directly off an elk carcass, I am trying my darndest to remember who the guys were on another thread that would run a grizzly off an elk carcass with nothing but their bow and some spray? MMmmmmmmm no thanks. Glad the fella is OK

From: Rut Nut
07-Sep-17

Rut Nut's Link
Zbone- this guy explains it very well. It's all in the semantics.

From: LBshooter
07-Sep-17
Zbone, I was too. When you fill out a 4473 there are three catagories, handgun, rifle and other. The shockwave is considered "other" and there for does not fall under the rule of 18 inch bbl. don't ask me how or why they categorize it as other but that's the deal. ATF has written a letter explaining the particulars on the weapon.

From: DL
07-Sep-17
Wanna get pissed? Read the comments. There is a shotgun round that has 00 in it followed by one round lead ball the size of the barrel above the wad. That's a .73 lead ball. That would ruin his day. Back in the 1800s they had a #2 Bore muzzle loader that shot a half pound lead ball. Or a sawed off double with two 500 H&H rounds.

From: TD
07-Sep-17
You're right DL. The comments section is sick. There seem a great number of self delusional people out there. Urban dwellers with zero sense of reality. Never asking themselves how or why that hamburger they are wolfing down got to their hands.....

From: drycreek
07-Sep-17
I had an 870 with an 18" barrel and a pistol grip. All I can say is you better make the first shot count, because recovery from a pistol-gripped 12 ga. is SLOW ! I still have the 870, but it now wears an adjustable stock like an AR. I guarantee I can dump 5/6 rounds out of my G20 while I'm shooting twice with a pistol-gripped shotgun. Not to mention, a gun slung on your shoulder or back is gonna add to your problem.

From: Tracker
07-Sep-17
I sure would not trust a 10mm to stop a changing bear.

From: Tracker
07-Sep-17
I sure would not trust a 10mm to stop a changing bear.

From: SBH
07-Sep-17
The gravellys have really changed in the last 10 years. Loaded with Grizzly now. It's crazy. This is early in the season too. Doesn't bode well. 3 more lawsuits filed today from the antis trying to stop the Grizz hunt. We need it bad.

From: Rut Nut
08-Sep-17
Just read some of the comments. All I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn't know there were THAT many morons on the planet! : (

But I loved this response:

Mark

2 days ago

Typical liberal thinking #$%$! You don't hunt, so you think nobody else should either. Most of the morons who wrote comments here wouldn't know what a grizzly bear looks like if one actually did bite him on the #$%$. This hunter did nothing wrong idiots! He walked up on a dangerous animal while the animal was feeding. Some run, some charge, it's the way it works. He wasn't hunting bear, he was hunting elk during a legal open season.The one thing that I SMH in knowing is that if a similar situation happened to 90% of you anti-hunter idiots, you would most likely be dead due to lack of skills in handling such an attack. Now, run along and finish reading Hillary's new book.

From: Thornton
09-Sep-17

From: md5252
09-Sep-17
I'd like to see the comments from those people if the bear had attacked them or their family. Idiots..

From: Pyrannah
09-Sep-17
i doubt most of them go out in to nature at all..

From: md5252
09-Sep-17
I'd like to see the comments from those people if the bear had attacked them or their family. Idiots..

From: Scrappy
09-Sep-17

Scrappy's embedded Photo
Scrappy's embedded Photo
Scrappy's embedded Photo
Scrappy's embedded Photo
Is this from a bear, it's where I slept last night?

From: bullelk
10-Sep-17
When I got nailed by a bear 2 years ago the story got picked up by the AP and made the national circuits. My family and I got to read comments such as "too bad he didn't die", and "that's what you deserve". It was disgusting.

From: Bow9
10-Sep-17
I would have to agree that there are more than one or two grizzlies in that area. I have hunted it several times. I have seen enough sign to tell me that there is more than a couple. We just delisted them for a reason. There are too damn many. I also would rather hunt where grizzlies aren't an issue and that's why I hunt the breaks. I do love the mountains though so it's a trade off

From: LBshooter
10-Sep-17
Isn't it funny that people who claim to value animal life would gladly see a human die and make such comments. The animal rights people are the same ones who are pro choice for abortion generally speaking but animals are the holy grail lol. The way thier minds work are ridiculous. Animals, especially big bears are not helpless as they claim but yet a fetus is totally , 100 percent helpless and yet the animal rights scumbags don't care.

From: Barty1970
11-Sep-17
Firstly, thank God that the guy will be OK [with THE best bar story EVER]... Secondly, as we all know, and they confirm themselves, hunting-haters are NOT pro-animal, they are anti-people; listen to Bart Lancaster on the latest Gritty Bowmen podcast about the forthcoming grizzly hunt ban in BC...where he invites the libtards who think there are no grizz to come walk in his part of BC for a few days and see how they get on 'Walk softly and carry a Big Stick*' * replace with firearm and/or bear spray at own discretion

From: arky
11-Sep-17
one thing I think is funny is how they don't get mad t the bear for killing an elk. So people can't kill animals but animals can and that's fine. An arrow to the heart will kill an animal a lot more ethically then a bear attacking it lol.

From: antlerman
11-Sep-17
Wish there was a way we could turn a Sow grizzly with 2 cubs loose at all these protest and see what the idiots think then. The cops wouldnt even have to set up. The grizzly would put them all back in there cars headed some where safe. They don't have a clue to the way nature handles things.

Respect to our country and wildlife would take on a whole new meaning.

From: Zbone
13-Sep-17
Rut Nut - Thanks for video linky... I want one...8^)

From: DartonJager
06-Oct-17
Just a wild suggestion and Im going to wish I had not gone public with this as someone will likely develop it, sell it and retire. Law enforcement has fully auto paint ball guns that shoot balls that are loaded with mace and burst on impact. I also know Hollywood FX people have paint ball gun projectiles that explode on contact so I would think it would be a great idea to modify such a gun to be smaller and lighter in weight and be as powerful as is practical and have a mix of mace filed balls, exploding balls and solid rock hard rubber or rubber coated metal balls as a type of 1/2/3 punch. Im guessing here but if you were to hit any bear with 30-40 of these projectiles in the face and head area the combination of the pain and shock and mace should have a very good chance of making said bear have a serious change of heart and leave ASAP. This way your not only preventing a tragedy but hopefully educating bears that humans are best left alone. IIRC a paint ball gun has a rate of fire of about 300-350 RPS so combined with a large capacity magazine you should have a high enough hit rate on a bears face to be effective. Just a wild a$$ idea on my part.

From: Linecutter
06-Oct-17
I don't know if they still do, but as I understood it in Alaska bear guides who carried shotguns for backup, alternated slugs and 00buck shot in the magazine starting off with a slug in chamber. As I understood it, first shot was to break a shoulder, then buckshot to the chest, then opposite shoulder, chest again, then head. Made good sense the way it read. DANNY

From: Fuzzy
06-Oct-17
DartonJaeger, I seriously doubt the paintball gun would stop, or even deter, a serious grizzly charge.

From: Ermine
06-Oct-17
Pistol grips and heavy shotgun load can be hard to shoot and aim. You think you don't need to aim with a shot gun but you do

I would advise using a stock even if the barrel is shorter.

From: Beendare
06-Oct-17

Beendare's embedded Photo
Beendare's embedded Photo
So many of these attacks we never hear about. Heres one out of wasilla, alaska Guy was hunting Grizz with his son...they lost sight of the bear and the dad found him...but at close range and the bear charged immediately grabbing the dad by the head...it took a bit for the son to get a clear shot...finally did. They had to quad out 46 miles to the highway like that.

Surprisingly my pilot says the guy looks OK now.....considering the bear ripped his entire face off.

From: Fulldraw1972
06-Oct-17
I am curious how a 10 mm would perform with underwood extreme penetrator rounds. I know there are a few videos on YouTube but nothing that gives you the warm fuzzy feeling. I also know a guide in Alaska killed a bear with the 9 mm version.

From: Matt
07-Oct-17
"I don't know if they still do, but as I understood it in Alaska bear guides who carried shotguns for backup, alternated slugs and 00buck shot in the magazine starting off with a slug in chamber. As I understood it, first shot was to break a shoulder, then buckshot to the chest, then opposite shoulder, chest again, then head. Made good sense the way it read."

Or if they ever did.

The guy we talked with in Nov. on Kodiak that had to kill a bear in self defense put his 1st .300 round just below the eye at ~20 yards - no need (or time) for a shoulder to the chest to the other should back to the chest whack-a-mole shot placement strategy.

That sounds more like what someone would do in a video game.

From: Jaquomo
07-Oct-17
I just read a blog where a granola-munching backpacker said he would rather be killed by a grizzly than cause it discomfort by spraying it's highly sensitive sensory organs with capsacin. That it causes too much distress to the bear and he accepted the threat as part of the backpacking adventure.... Darwin award candidate.

From a ballistic standpoint a 10MM is basically equivalent to a .357. If you go that route there are much lighter and more compact .357 options for a hunting carry gun. 10MMs are made for shooting people. .454s and .500s are made for shooting dangerous game.

From: beaneater
07-Oct-17
I've been hearing about another attack in WY in the last couple of weeks. Father and son bowhunters. Sow with cubs charged, bit the son then charged the Dad. Son didn't have time to deploy Bear spray.

From: Ucsdryder
07-Oct-17
Jaq a 10mm with heavy bullets can often exceed 357 ballistics. Also, 10 or 17 rounds from a 10mm is going to be much better than 6 from a wheel gun. And I can’t shoot a wheel gun to save my life. That being said I’m not sure I’d feel warm and fuzzy with a 10mm in grizzly country. I do carry one in Colorado tho

From: Jaquomo
07-Oct-17
Ucs, agree on 10 or 17 being better than 6, but unless you are shooting a bear that's on someone else, 2 shots is the average max number fired in bear attacks where a handgun is deployed. Like AK describes above, most happen so fast the shooter is lucky to get it out of the holster and get one shot off.

From: mfg bowyer
07-Oct-17
Back in 86"I bought a SWAT 12ga. with 18" barrel & extender(8 rounds) & sling from the police for trip to AK. & carried slug in chamber & then alternated OO Buck & slugs. Never needed it & glad of it. Most of the AK. residents said that if you carry hand gun just use it on your self as it won't hurt as much as what the bear will do.

From: Barty1970
09-Oct-17
"I just read a blog where a granola-munching backpacker said he would rather be killed by a grizzly than cause it discomfort by spraying it's highly sensitive sensory organs with capsacin. That it causes too much distress to the bear and he accepted the threat as part of the backpacking adventure.... Darwin award candidate. " Jaq wins the interfacegoogletwitnet for the week with that one...'stoopid is as stoopid does'

From: Ucsdryder
09-Oct-17
Good point jaq. I guess in the end it all comes down to what you’re comfortable with and what you can draw and shoot quickly...and accurately. Luckily I only have to worry about the little Colorado version and my g29 with the long barrel and 10 rounds gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling.

From: Franzen
09-Oct-17
Pros and cons to most things. A guy might be more likely to carry his 10mm than a possibly larger wheel gun, or definitely a shotgun. Even if it only gives you the opportunity to throw some warning shots out there, it's better than nothing. I don't think anyone would choose it as hands-down best weapon if you know you will be attacked by a griz though. Over the years (which isn't a tremendous amount) I've gravitated toward spray due to the convenience factor.

Anything else on this reported WY attack?

From: GF
09-Oct-17
Pretty sure Larry Hatfield said that buck over slug was the way to go.... probably something to be said for the noise + pain/ shock & awe thing. Personally, I think I’d be better off with a pattern - even one that hasn’t opened up much yet - vs just the one slug...

From: Fuzzy
10-Oct-17
Matt, it does sound kinda like a theoretical scenario that's unlikely in real life doesn't it.In real life shit happens fast and you do what you can with what you have.

From: Matt
10-Oct-17
"Ucs, agree on 10 or 17 being better than 6, but unless you are shooting a bear that's on someone else, 2 shots is the average max number fired in bear attacks where a handgun is deployed. Like AK describes above, most happen so fast the shooter is lucky to get it out of the holster and get one shot off."

So very this. It surprises me the number of people who cite magazine capacity as a criterion for a bear defense weapon when history suggests you will likely only get 1-2 shots - if you can even get your weapon out of the holster in time to take a shot.

From: GF
10-Oct-17
A plus for revolvers: when the bear is already on top of you , you can jam the muzzle into his ribs and the gun will still go off.

From: TD
10-Oct-17
Agree, many cases there may be no time for much of anything. I don't think all are surprise attacks though, a good many see the bear in plenty of time, watch it coming closer even over time. If too close, could be a couple warning shots at whatever range and prepare for what happens. That would be the scenario for having more bullets and being able to use them quickly. Best would likely be to back out without them seeing you doing so. Worse would probably be run away screaming like a girl....... even my dogs chase folks when they do that......

I don't hear much of the effects of warning shots with big bears. Hard stats to come up with maybe..... my guess is when it works, it simply isn't reported. When it doesn't..... ???

From: bill brown
10-Oct-17
On a fishing trip in remote Manitoba in July 2016, we had a problem with a rather large black bear, 400-450 lb. He broke into our cabin and drank a lot of LaBatt's. To make a long story short, he forced us to shoot him in the face from about 2 feet with a .12 gauge magnum BB goose load. It knocked him down and he ran off. I'm glad he ran off, because that load did not disable him. A bunch of guys in underwear at 3:30 in the morning. Pretty funny in retrospect, but scary as hell at the time. I post this as an example of why a slug might be the best idea.

10-Oct-17
A group of guys from my church went to Canada fishing about 10 years ago. Was flown into a cabin, etc.... They had a problem with a black bear pretty much just like that. None of them found/find it as funny as us back home did/do. I won't bore you with all the details but, it basically came down to either the bear or, they were going to get the cabin. They won due to a 12 gauge and double ought buck. God Bless.

From: Colo_Lee
10-Oct-17
Never dealt with a bear but having dealt with passed off cows bulls and a few horses I found out very early in my teen years and only having a rope for a weapon that taking away the use of a leg or two was very helpful in serving the attacks and to this day it still works and does anyone ever practice shooting from the hip with a shotgun ? when I shot ATA used to shoot from the hip from 16 &27 yard line just to and a challenge to it for fun you will be amazed at how good you can get at it

From: Matt
10-Oct-17
When a bear is biting your head, leg or arm, where do you put the rope? ;-)

From: DartonJager
11-Oct-17
Fuzzy, if bear spray has reportedly effectively stopped bear attacks why wouldn't the same spray contained in paint balls traveling at 350fps and hitting a bear with several dozen in the face repeatedly that burst on contact covering his face in mace along with others that literally explode like the ones used by H-Wood FX people to simulate bullet strikes? I realize I am guessing here but I've actually witnessed videos of the police using paint ball guns to hit people with mace filled balls and the mace dispersed creating a quite large fog like mist covering an area larger than a basket ball. I'm not actually saying wait until the bear is in a full out charge but if you see it getting to close hitting it in the face with 30-50 mace filled paint balls would have to get enough mace in to the bears eyes and respiratory system that it should seriously affect the bears ability to see and breath. Also with a paint ball gun delivery system you would likely have 2x the effective range of a can of bear mace and I would have to think considerably more accuracy.

If nothing else to bad someone doesn't develop a mace delivery system for a shotgun that could combine bear mace along with a heavy dense plastic projectile as a 1-2 punch to a bears face. Again, like I said just guessing.

From: TD
11-Oct-17
Just a guess, but I'd think a bear doing 30-40 mph would run right though a dispersal that only opened on contact with the bear. Maybe a direct hit to the face would have some effect? But a leg or chest or shoulder.... likely not. Plus to make a pepper ball that would splat on impact with a heavy coat of fur may not be allowed in the plane you might use to get to where you are hunting. If you have used paintball guns at all it's not unusual to have a damaged ball drooling out of the gun at some point.

The idea of the spray is the bear runs into a cloud already dispersed. Not like a relatively stationary (and likely wienie) protester in the streets.

If I'm hitting them with paint balls at close range I'd rather they be in the 400+ grain range doing around 1500 to 2000 fps.......

From: Fuzzy
11-Oct-17
DartonJaeger, you may be right and I don't engage in theoretical arguments on subjects I know nothing about.

I AM interested in the pepper spray ammo for paintball guns though. Where do you get it?

From: DartonJager
11-Oct-17
Don't get me wrong, I have no 1st hand experience dealing with Grizzlies, I am just wondering out loud about a possible alternative to stopping a bear attack that leaves both parties alive and unharmed as that would be IMHO the best possible outcome for all. I also think if the market is there for one a company could develop a much more powerful delivery system for larger projectiles filled with mace that would have a more effective impact on the bear including shooting them into the ground in front of the path of a approaching bear to create a dense wall or cloud of sorts of mace for the beer to run into. Again this all theory and guessing on my part. Fuzzy I have no idea where you can get paint balls loaded with mace heck they might not even be available to the public for all I know. I also have seen the police use mace delivery systems with quite large containers of mace to deal with and disperse larger groups of people, but that system has one major draw back in the wind can blow it back into your face, that is why I thought a delivery system like paint balls would be a better way to mace a bear without risking making yourself. Like I said just the opinions of a person with no actual experience dealing with grizzlies just trying to come up with a way to keep both man and animal alive and reasonably unharmed after a chance encounter gone wrong as such encounters are only going to increase in numbers. And a charging grizzly is no different than a charging lion, hippo or elephant if your REAL lucky you MIGHT have time enough for 2 and at the most 3 shots before the animal is on you, and in the process of giving you what African PH's affectionately refer to as "The New Look"

From: rick allison
11-Oct-17
Many years ago, a buddy did a lot of wilderness canoeing in northern Canada. His concern was polar bears.

On one particular trip through Hudson's Bay, when laying out his itinerary with the Crown, they advised him to carry a shotgun loaded with bird shot to shoot a threatening bear in the face to drive it off.

When planning with his pilot, he related the advice to him. The pilot told him, you don't shoot a bear to drive it off...load it 00, 00, slug, slug, slug!

From: Beendare
11-Oct-17
I have no experience with charging grizz...but have shot upwards of 100 close range hogs- some while charging with a pistol.

Being fast and accurate on target has to be the #1 factor...but how many of us practice draw and shoot religiously?

I would rather have a shotgun over a pistol on a charge- no contest....but i end up packing a pistol for all around ease.

i do think these relatively new hardcast Buffalo bore style and the Lehigh, Underwood penetrator bullets are a game changer. I think we will see more and more cases of these rounds in .45 super, 10mm maybe even .40 and 9mm stopping bears in their tracks. I wouldn't hesitate to pack a .45 super or 10mm instead of my SW 629 in .44 mag. These semi autos do bring their own challenges; inc function check and practicing the different holds. you don't want to find that hardcast don't feed....or a low from the waist shot is equal to limp wristing and the slide won't cycle- all problems with semi autos. Assuming you will get multiple double handed grip with an isosceles stance might be too optimistic.

i agree with the guys saying '2 shots maybe, it happens fast'. But I can see where a guy that practices with a semi auto all year will be better served sticking with it vs a large cal revolver. Speaking for myself, its harder for me to transition to my revolver from my high hold used on semi autos.

Going semi autos due to the high cap mag...or better trigger reset...is probably not a factor...unless you practice, practice, practice.

I will be migrating to my HK USP in .45 super next year with Lehigh +P 200gr Penetrator ammo.....with the Gangsta hold of course- grin

From: Ucsdryder
11-Oct-17
I don’t know about everyone else, but I can’t fire my glock at least 2x faster than a big wheel gun, maybe 3x. So does that translate to 4-6 shots versus 2? I don’t know but getting a 44 or 454 back on target is much harder than my 10mm with a potted barrel.

11-Oct-17
I have a 10mm Sig. I was wondering if you had to modify your gun, or barrel, to shoot hardcast bullets. I have heard conflicting stories that changing the spring is enough, or changing the barrel. Sorry, don' mean to hijack the thread. Mick

11-Oct-17
I was wandering this the other day after putting a Kifaru gun bearer on my pack. They are dang handy to carry a long gun. Keeps both hands free. A shot gun would be better even because it is shorter. the gun bearer ts the weapon in an easy to acquire position but, out of the way for bow hunting if you would put it farther back on the belt you could still draw your bow wearing it. Any of you guys that hunt in grizzly country ever considered using this? Check 'em out.

From: Matt
11-Oct-17
"DartonJaeger, you may be right and I don't engage in theoretical arguments on subjects I know nothing about. "

Your presence here says otherwise... ;-)

From: houndy65
12-Oct-17
To the double oo buck comments on saying it would be affective. I can say without one doubt that all oo buck would do is increase your odds of getting seriously hurt, even at close range. I have been around these bears now most of my life. The only real defense is a good offence, 41. 44. or now I carry a 10mm glock with Buffalo bore 220's and bear spray. Carrying a shotgun here in the west is up to who ever wants to have the extra weight, trust me you will not want it in the mountains, this is not flatland and the hiking is not walking 100 yards to your tree stand. The best thing all of us as hunters can do is call all of your politicians (even the ones in back east) and interior secretary Ryan Zinke and get these bears removed off the endangered species act and let Montana, Idaho and Wyoming properly manage the bears with a hunting season. Yes we are trying now and have this in place for the bears around Yellowstone, but the Grizzlies in NW Montana are just as bad. There will be some As!@!##$$ liberal group and judge try to stop it, that is a given, but please voice your opinion. My worst fear is to have my young son (age 13) out with me and have a grizzliy come charge. The last attack here in NW Montana happen to be men I know.

Thanks, Terry L. Zink

From: Beendare
12-Oct-17
JM comment, "I have a 10mm Sig. I was wondering if you had to modify your gun, or barrel, to shoot hardcast bullets"

i can tell you of 2 buddies that did modifications to Glocks due to FTF and bullets tumbling in the stock barrel. One buddy ended up changing out the extractor, barrel, and springs. I dunno if he ran a couple hundred rounds of hardcast through there but i do know we shot a box of it screwing around and it was a dream to shoot compared to a large revolver.

FWIW, I know a few shooters that have done extensive testing with the Buffalo bore, Lehigh and Underwood rounds in multiple semi autos [not Sig, but Glock and H&K's] Its worth gaining perspective here- in their Law Enforcement mindset, zero FTF's [failure to feed or function, take your pick] is acceptable...as it should be. They encountered failure to feed problems in single digit % in the Glocks with Hardcast [i can't remember exact %] and about 1/2 that in the H&K's....but still not 100%. The rounder nose Lehigh penetrators don't have that problem with getting hung up on feed ramps and have been extensively tested by many folks inc LO orgs [no this isn't a commercial- grin]

Whether your Sig is a robust platform for the bear defense rounds....i haven't seen a lot of testing. I know my West German 226 eats everything- Zero FTF....but i haven't tested it with these BD cartridges.

Its worth noting that the H&K's are more robust when it comes to handling these higher +P cartridges and more forgiving when it comes to cycling the slide in a variety of different situations. This is worth considering IMO as you just don't know what position you will be in- possibly with a bear on you. [ie, shooting with one hand in a low awkward position....and your defense pistol doesn't cycle the slide- ouch ]

IME, Glocks are amazingly reliable weapons when used correctly...but unforgiving of limp wristing....H&K's just function.

12-Oct-17
9 36 caliber slugs traveling at 1300fps with one shot. Versus a 10mm traveling at 1150 fps per single shot. Houndy, your response makes no sense about the 10mm being better as far as power goes.

From: houndy65
12-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer just how much have you hunted out west, my response was about double oo buck. I live here in Montana and have been around pissed off grizzlies, not fun. The 10mm is about a 41 mag, 15 shots in my clip of 220 grains. Carrying a shotgun here in the mountains would not be fun. Now on to 10mm vs. 12 slugs, I would choose 12 slugs anytime, but carrying a shotgun while bowhunting elk in the Rockies is not a good idea while trying to conserve weight. So a sidearm 41. 44. 45. or what I choose 10mm and bear spray.

From: Matt
12-Oct-17
Houndy, just how much have you hunted in Alaska? How many grizzlies have you shot in MT for that matter?

"Another correspondent with over 30 years of grizzly bear experience in Alaska expressed this opinion: "They are gentleman bears, but can be dangerous. I carried either a .41 or .44 pistol everywhere I went, but if I HAD to be in thick brush along a noisy salmon stream, where the bears couldn't hear me singing and talking to them, I would carry a shotgun loaded with 00 buck. You have 15 round lead balls of about .32 caliber in a 12 gauge, three inch magnum shell. You would have to have steady nerves to hit a charging grizzly in the head with a single bullet and if you miss the head, you are done for. With 00 buck, maybe one pellet will hit the brain."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm

I found this while Googling to find the AK DF&G demonstration that 00 buck will penetrate the brain cavity of brown bears.

12-Oct-17
Houndy, I have hunted no farther west than Colorado. Only a few times at that. You are right though, I was going by memory stating the rounds were .36 caliber. My mistake, I was off by .03. They are only.33 caliber. Whew, I'm glad we got that figured out. That 3 hundredths on an inch might be a game changer. :^)

Look, I don't know if the gun bearer would work. Which is why I asked the previous question. But, I have read many a professional contradict what you claim. If you like that pea shooter, use it. Its all a compromise. But, no one in the world responsible for stopping dangerous game would choose your gun and rounds over a 12 gauge loaded with double ought buck/slug combo. That's just the facts of it. No sense in rationalizing it any other way. And, from that video there is zero chance you can un-holster and shoot that gun as accurate or, as quickly as that fella dropped that gun and prepared to defend himself.

Weight doesn't matter when my life depends on it. It's the practical aspect that does. Have you ever tried the gun bearer idea? Maybe it isn't for you? Maybe it won't work? I truly don't know which is why ASKED. But, I fire as many rounds and reload about as much as anyone, with a lot of different guns and, I know a handgun is a poor choice versus anything dangerous. So, instead of trying to be the authority, why don't you actually answer the question so guys like me, that don't live with the Grizzly, can maybe make our own decisions. I ask that with the most sincere meaning too. If you haven't tried it, I'll send you mine to try. I can shot my bow wearing a gun with it. It really carries well. I really want to know if its a practical choice.

God Bless men

From: Rcarter
12-Oct-17
Most people do not encounter Grizzly bears in the wild. Very few do in fact. However if you're ever in West Yellowstone – I would suggest stopping off at the Wolf and a grizzly bear discovery center. Watching them feed the bears and interact with each other, will give some very good perspective -to you relative to their actual size, speed, and "personality". It is worth the time and may give you a different point of view.

From: TD
13-Oct-17
They make 00 buck in hard cast as well.......

From: Fuzzy
13-Oct-17
Matt, busted as usual. LOL

In defense, I don't consider commenting on a thread to necessarily be "engaging". I'm merely "participating" in this particular argument.

And yes, I still say you get out of the sleeping bag to pee. So there!

From: Heartshot
13-Oct-17
I am trying to figure out why we continue to put up with this. Why are these bears this plentiful? Because bureacrats who are intimidated by "environmentalists" are preventing us from killing them. Teddy Roosevelt is laughing at us now.....

Not saying they should be eradicated just saying attacks should be very very rare.

From: Irishman
13-Oct-17
I bowhunt in grizzly country quite a bit. The truth is that when you are hiking up a mountain in September, packing a backpack with all your gear, and a bow, you aren't going to be able to pack along a shotgun of any kind. The best thing is to hold a can of pepper spray in your hand available for instant use, and hope that you don't need to use it. If it's that bad that you feel you need armed with a rifle/shotgun, then you probably should find somewhere else to hunt.

From: GF
13-Oct-17
I’m inclined to agree with Irishman on the weight aspect; hell, I won’t even drag a COMPOUND around at 9 or 10 or 12,000 feet!

From: Scar Finga
13-Oct-17
I agree with Irish as well. I also know two or three guides in Wy and they all carry bear spray as a primary defense and have a pistol on their side all the time. But I will admit freely, that these are the only guys I know that are in Grizz country all the time.

From: Beendare
13-Oct-17
I used to carry a shotgun in my hands with my bow strapped to my back decades ago on Kodiak and Admiralty islands. Its different now. Those bears ..are a bit more afraid of humans and it shows. The stories of a "Gun going off and its a dinner bell to bears" is a joke.

The Alaskans have their chit together. in U16A &B a res can shoot up to 10 G bears a year...and a wolf a day all year. [from memory] Well what do you know, there are much less problems...AND the moose population is coming back- who knew? /sarc

Seems to me the most dangerous hunting spot in the US is within 50 +/- miles of Yellowstone...a man made problem.

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