Contributors to this thread:
Soft scary sharp or hard sharp
Curious on what opinions are. Due to the way they sharpen I assume Magnus Stingers are a little softer than Steel Force Phathead titaniums for example. I have both these heads sharpened for moose. The Magnus sharpen like a dream and are scary wicked sharp. I got the phathead titanium single bevels to shave but not that scary sharp level.
Overthinking it I'm sure, but just curious what opinions are. Better off with the scary sharp? What happens once you hit ribs and moose hide? I want to be sharp in the goods where it matters. The titaniums are single bevel 2 blades. I have bleeders on the Magnus stingers. Thoughts?
Shaving is shaving. Yeah over thinking. JMO
I am into hand sharpening with stones on everything...knives...Bheads...tools etc. I get frustrated when I cannot get any item not "scary sharp". That being said ease of sharpening or completeness of sharpening has a lot to do with steels/materials. Broadheads are used for that 1 shot....go with SCARY SHARP.
I love the Magnus bh's, but I would use the single bevels on the moose. the shoulder hit would destroy a Magnus in my opinion, I think they would do ok on the ribs. You aren't trying to shave the moose, just kill it:) Sharp is Sharp.
The real question is which broadhead will hold its edge better while penetrating a moose. That will be determined by sharpening angle and steel temper in the broadhead. I don't have the answer.
I agree a 100X with Ollie. A scary sharp head after the first 3 inches may not be as sharp as a head that is not as sharp, but holds it's edge sharper over the next 15 inches. I shoot rocket steel heads that are not shaving sharp, but are not that much duller after pasting thru an elk.
There's a few different versions of each head your talking about .. Which ones are you referring to? Ed
No experience with moose but I was going to move to Magnus next year.
Granted my BH of choice did its job on an elk I wasn't thrilled after seeing the tip curled.
Getting Ti to razor sharpness is a task. Titanium is a great metal for ferrules, it sucks as a blade as far as I am concerned.
I like Phatheads but the Magnus is going to hold a better edge compared to any titanium blade.
I like hard and scary sharp. Not sure which would be the more preferable between the two choices presented of sacrificing one or the other.
I suspect the difference in included blade angle might be a factor in attaining the "scary sharpness" with the single-bevel heads. There's a reason why razor blades are thin. They are also VERY SHARP, and the better ones are very good at retaining that sharpness even after mowing down some tough whiskers a few days in a row. I'm old enough to recall how many guys used to glue injector razor blades to their early Bodkins and similar BH's to gain durable sharpness and a bit of extra cutting length, even at the loss of some impact toughness.
My choice would be my old favorite NAP Thunderheads. The tip is an extremely hard material which will still respond to the touch of a stone to restore the point to evry close to zero resistance for penetration, the blades seem to very tough, but still take an edge very well when hand sharpened individually in a Lansky-type sharpening device and a little honing to finish with some compound, and the same blades when used repeatedly during the summer for practice hold up extremely well when slammed into hard clay that contains some roots and an occasional rock. They will get an occasional nick or get the edge worn down to the point that they are definitely kept in the "practice blades forever" box and not resharpened for the season opener, but they take a lot more abuse than most blades. Never actually tested them for retention of shaving sharpness, but they hold so well generally against damage in actual shooting in practice, that I suspect they would do very well.
And I always liked the three-blade as the best compromise on blade numbers between the two blades that might occasionally zip through without leaving much of a slit for blood loss onto the ground, and the four-blades that might impede penetration slightly to gain cut area, using energy that may have been better used for a little more penetration.
I don't even know what "scary" sharp is although I hear the term used all the time. I've killed lots of game with "pretty darn" sharp heads and can't think of an animal I lost that would have died had my broadhead been "scary" sharp instead of just "pretty darn" sharp.
Scary sharp. Broadheads kill by cutting blood vessels for bleed out. I remember a demonstration showing a dull (not scary sharp) and scary sharp BH thru a series of parallel surgical tubes stretched across a wooden frame. The dull BH simply pushed the tubing aside. Blood vessels are tough and can move inside a body. The scary sharp just sliced the tubing cleanly. Although surgical tubing is not exactly the same as blood vessels, there is similarity.
Scary sharp! I am suspect part of the reason is the single bevel won't feel that sharp. Edge retention is important, but I would rather have something scary sharp that will at least cut everything in it's path for several inches before starting to dull than a slightly sharp head that will still be that way out the other side. Broadheads kill quickest by massive blood loss. That only occurs with scary sharp heads.
Helgermite, was the test done at 260-280 fps? I'm thinking even a dull broadhead would cut those rubber bands at high speed (now there's a test for someone to attempt!). Not advocating using dull broadheads, but sometimes I think people go overboard when talking about sharpness. I think if your head will shave hair, you have nothing to worry about. I've done it that way for 35+ years and never had a terrible blood trail I couldn't follow or penetration issues if I did my job right.
12 yards maybe I should add that my arrow is travelling at 165 fps... coming from a recurve.
When I think of "scary sharp" it's like when I was done with the Magnus heads they literally just wipe hair off my arm, I hardly even feel it moving and the hair is just falling to the floor.
Ok yeah sorry, I'd want them as sharp as possible then. I think the Magnus would serve you well. BTW, you don't shoot the 150 grain 4 blade do you? I have three that I don't use. I've shot them into foam a few times but otherwise they are mint shape. If you want them they are yours.
I think you're touching on the reason that some folks are such vocal proponents of serrated edges like the buzzcuts - if you hit bone, at least the low spots will stand a chance of passing through relatively undamaged. Most of these guys like to talk about "ripping and tearing" with the serrations, but I think the opposite is true; those blades cut cleaner all the way through because at least part of the edge is protected.
And cleaner bleeds more.
And not for nothin'… as is the long-standing tradition, I shot right over the back of the first deer I ever drew down on. I had left my quiver in the car (long story), so I went quickly to recover my arrow which had landed in cultivated soil with plenty of small rocks and gravel in it. Thunderhead - and yes, it still shaved, even after I missed on my second shot. YMMV
12 yards it is the 150's but I'm sure shipping to Canada is half the cost of the heads. Really appreciate the offer that's very generous!
Found the perfect compromise and customized my KME knife jig so that I can go way higher and now so single bevels :) this improved the edge a LOT!
Yeah, I sold a goose call to a kid in Canada once. I couldn't believe how much it cost to ship. Good luck this season.
Sounds like you got them both very sharp to scary sharp. similar profiles and cutting diameters.
With that said, to me it's simple....accuracy, accuracy, accuracy!
Good luck, you cant go wrong!!
I would want nothing less than scary sharp. However, degree of scary sharp and length of time "scary sharp" is maintained is dependent on the quality and hardness of the metal.
I've spent a lot of time examining wound channels and BH's after shots and kills....overthinking, maybe....
I've found heads that dulled on animals after the shot. Some were dead animals none the less....some were arrows that fell out with animals lost. I have many bowhunting buddies and it seems they all use something different...so plenty of different examples.
A key factor I want in a BH is for the blades to remain sharp all the way through the animal....and they don't all do that all the time. On thin skinned game like whitetails its less a factor...but on big hogs with a shield and elk...its a significant factor.
I've come to appreciate quality BH steel for holding an edge.... and also a tapered head that slides in vs plowing helping to keep the edge sharp by putting less pressure on it.
Titanium has some incredible properties...but retaining a good edge ain't one of them.
12 Yards. The test was done with the broadhead mounted on an arrow pushed thru by hand. No speed factor. Just shear sharpness vs dull. And "dull" was just less than scary sharp!
Our broadheads come shaving sharp, they are made out of 420 stainless steel and hardened to a Rockwell c hardness of 49 to 52. If at any time you damage one or for some reason you cant sharpen it up, send it to us and we replace. thank you
Here is a video that I recently put together that addresses the very thing of sharpness in Magnus heads. It starts out by addressing the current problem of counterfeit heads which is industry wide unfortunately. But anyway, we had a customer send a pack of heads back saying they were "as dull as a butter knife". Mike had his machinist test the sharpness "as is" from one of the returned heads. It clearly shaved the hair off of his arm. I haven't seen a butter knife shave hair ever. Now like someone else stated, there is scary sharp vs sharp enough and made the comment about wanting a head that is still sharp enough when it has gone deep into an animal. Could Magnus make a head that is scary scalpel sharp ... probably, but the problem is that edge would get lost fast. The way a Magnus head is sharpened and the steel it is made from makes it sharp enough to keep cutting after it has gone deep through a big game animal. Every big game animal on planet Earth has fallen to a Magnus head at some point and time.
I shoe an elk with a G5 Montec stainless That bh was so dull after the passthru I would have had trouble scrapping butter off the stick. Never shot them again.
I shoe an elk with a G5 Montec stainless That bh was so dull after the passthru I would have had trouble scrapping butter off the stick. Never shot them again.
Scary sharp is when you even look at them your eyes bleed!! I get my VPA heads that sharp with a jewel stick. I believe they are in between as far as soft and hard goes. Too hard are hard to sharpen and I like to hand sharped my heads but that comes from shooting recurves(and compounds) for 40 years. Shawn
Yes Mike, as I said above, the magnus heads are wicked sharp! I have no idea what rockwell hardnesses are. One day I'll look into it. I hope to shoot something with them this fall. I really didn't want to buy those Titanium Phatheads, they were all that was available in town unfortunately, and I didn't have a ton of time. Lesson learned.
I cut my dang finger on a Stinger and that cut bled for 3-4 days. Didn't quit 'til I super-glued it shut.
You don't get THAT from a marginally sharp blade. Right outta the box.
Magnus heads are okay but I wouldn't classify them as scary sharp out of the packet. Any head the has to run over arm hair the number of times shown in DEC's video to cut a small amount of hair off an arm shouldn't be considered "scary sharp". A stock Magnus is super sharp and will do the job without a doubt. Now take a Magnus out of the package and strop it and it'll get close to "scary sharp".
I also shoot and sharpen VPA heads and no one is going to get a 3 blade VPA "scary sharp" at least not by my definition. The angle of a 3 blade sharpened on a flat stone simply isn't conducive to that. I can get them to nearly shave and close to the sharpness of a stock Magnus as shown in the picture and that was one pass over my arm.
I'd define scary sharp as an oringinal German Kinetic head that's so sharp you get nervous handling one for fear of cutting your hand. These heads are truly incredible and I've shot a current 150 grain practice head into a broadhead target at least 20 times and it'll still pop hair off my arm and is as sharp now after 20+ shots as a new Magnus or my hand sharpened VPA 3 blade heads. A new, out of the package original German Kinetic head has an edge that's unrivaled. That said the edge retention does come with the downside of a high price and a harder and potentially more brittle stainless steel blade so there's a trade off in edge retention.
"12 Yards. The test was done with the broadhead mounted on an arrow pushed thru by hand. No speed factor. Just shear sharpness vs dull. And "dull" was just less than scary sharp! "
I tend to agree with what I believe 12 yards was getting at - hand pushing isn't a reasonable proxy for what a BH will do at common arrow speeds. It takes vessels time to move out of the way when resistance is applied by the broadhead, and my sense is many would be severed under a truly dynamic experiment whereas that may not be the case if pushed through (slowly) by hand.
Now we're getting there! So Scary Sharp > Super Sharp. I'm thinking the final analysis is that Scary Sharp>Super Sharp>Pretty Darn Sharp.
And right under "Pretty Darn Sharp" is "Just Sharp Enough"!
And then... Might get it done, cuz U R 2 Lazy 2 Sharpen or Replace.
That being said, I have never been able to get my VPA's what I would consider to be "Scary Sharp" but they are sharp and I would not hesitate to shoot them at any game on the planet. Tougher than anything else I have tried, but my exposer is limited when it comes to these type of heads.
I can get a 3-blade VPA "scary sharp". And they will hold an edge and resharpen extremely easy back to "scary sharp." I initiated the process with a bastard file, then diamond stones, then emory cloth, then jewel stick and then leather strop. It takes a little bit to set the edge with the file, but after that the process quickens.
The sharpest BH that I have experienced "out of the package" is a Wac'em. The second sharpest is a Slick Trick.
That VPA head pictured above was sharpened using a similar method to yours and finished with a strop and many would consider it scary sharp but I don't. That said compared to a German Kinetic head it's not and can't be as sharp simply due to the blade angle.
I don't get it. I can not shave with broadheads. Not even with replacement blades like Muzzy blades or razor expandables like Rage or a few others. I sharpen VPA's, Montecs, and Hell Razors, and kill deer. My wife killed a buck last night with a Montec I sharpened. Double lung, sliced the lower heart real good and the deer went maybe 60 yards. Broadheads I have sharpened have put deer down within 50 yards. Bad shots within a few hundred yards. But I can never shave with them. They do stick when I try to pull them across my thumb nail. They do "pop" rubber bands easy. But they do not scare me when I run my finger over them and I can not shave with them.
I agree you want them sharp to cut blood vessels, but I think the surgical tubing example is not true to life in that the muscles, tendons, and fibers are holding the blood vessels in place, not allowing them to move as freely as bands stretched across a frame. Either way sharp is never a bad thing. I like mine sharp as well, but have killed plenty of animals with broad heads that were not shaving sharp. Just my .02
Still sharp after passthrough
Still sharp after passthrough
That's a 150 grain single bevel cutthroat. It's made by RMS gear. A single bevel will never be as sharp as a double bevel or a replaceable type scalpel blade. It shaved hair off my arm after it went through this bull. Caught the edge of the scapula on entrance and took a big chunk off the bone.
JMHO: If your eyebrows don't fall off just from looking at them, they ain't sharp enough!
" A single bevel will never be as sharp as a double bevel "
Not disagreeing because I don't know, but I'd love to get the explanation on that.
And I might hazard a guess that the truth of that statement has a lot to do with the individual doing the sharpening....
Ok, I shouldn't have said double bevel. Should have just kept it to a replaceable scapel type of blade. The angle on these types of blades is different than a single bevel. I sharpen double bevel knives everyday so I think I'm pretty good at getting double and single bevels pretty dang sharp. Lol
I don't doubt that at all... Just trying to learn something useful.
I'm trying to get good enough that I trust my own hand-sharpened edges, but the closest I've gotten so far is to hand-sharpen the mains and use factory-edge replaceable bleeders as insurance... Kind of curious as to whether I might get better results with single-bevel.
And FWIW, I shot a NAP HellRazor through a little doe and it'll still pass the thumbnail test, but not the forearm. Switched over to those after I sliced my finger on the Stinger... those sharp, trailing edges just aren't Catquiver-compatible!
This was actually my first time sharpening single bevel broad heads but it's not very difficult. Just have to keep your file, stone, sandpaper, etc at a 25 degree bevel then run your sharpening tool on the flat side keeping your stone flat. I sharpened some by laying the broached at a 25 degree angle on a stone then sharpening as usual and turning it over to the flat side and running that side flat on the stone. Finished on a leather strope. I could shave hair off my arm with slight pressure but not like a replaceable blade. I thought they were pretty sharp and wouldn't even think of running a finger down the blade. This will be my new broadhead of choice. I shot Bear razor heads years ago and liked the penetration benefits over any 3 or 4 blade I have ever shot so I switched back to a solid 2 blade but went with a single bevel instead.
The closer to "zero" the included angle is on the bevel will determine the scariness of sharp. The method of sharpening, as long as the manufactured bevel is kept, will only get a broadhead so sharp (i.e. a three blade sharpened on a flat stone).
Going from coarse file, to stone, to 60 grit sand paper, stick, and then leather is polishing the steel to give the bevel a more uniform edge. That is in effect getting it closer to a scapel edge in comparison, but will never be as "sharp".
I would hate for a surgeon to "scare" precise incisions during an operation using a three blade broadhead (VPA, Montec, Hellrazor) he had to sharpen himself...