letting button bucks walk
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
for those who don't shoot button bucks do you think that it has made a difference in the buck to doe ratio in your local herd.
Most defiantly! I just wish I could get the neighbors to do the same!
This is the main reason "earn a buck" tags are a detriment to the quality of a deer herd. When you withhold a buck tag UNTIL a antlerless deer is killed the majority of the "antlerless" deer killed are button bucks. Talk to any DNR agent and ask them if they ever kept this STAT.....and see what they tell you.
Obviously, that is just a simple math question. Of course it makes a difference. If you have three male deer and shoot one, how many are left? A button buck is nothing but a 150", 10-point, three years early. BUT... and it is a huge but.
When you have a law that says if the antlers break the hairline, you must use a buck tag, in most instances, you create faulty data. How? By the large number of hunters who won't use a buck tag on a mistake. yes, the honest ones will, most won't. For that reason, on public ground, I favor a 3" rule. On private ground, if it has a penis, it is a buck. On public ground, I like the three category rule. Antlerless, doe and buck. That seems to be the most accurate in terms of voluntary or computer checking. But here is another thought. Before you start worrying about your sex ratio, make sure you know what it actually is. Very few hunters, do. They base it on what they see and that is almost always, faulty data.
Bucks die many more ways than by a hunter. Letting buttons pass just gives the herd a bit more "specimens" in the male class which could grow up to giants.
When ever I shoot a mature Whitetail I think about the many times when he/she escaped death on their journey. I doubt anyone has shot a trophy Whitetail that hasn't been "missed" a few times. Let em go!
Franklin here in iowa the city hunts are earn a buck tag by shooting at least three does. I was at a meeting a few years ago and several guys where crying that button bucks should count as does. It was disgusting to see but the biologist stood his ground. Buttons are not illegal to kill but they won't count either.
Why would anyone shoot any fawn?
^^^^ Uh, good eatin maybe.
Never have never plan to.
I let fawns pass. No scientific justification, that's just me. I'm not hunting for survival. My hunting is by my choice; how I hunt, what I use, and when and if I decide to shoot. If I came across a deer (any sex, any size) caught in a fence or otherwise stuck and helpless I'd do what I could to free it (unless it was severly wounded and dying). But again, that's just me.
“do you think that it has made a difference in the buck to doe ratio in your local herd.”
Depends on how “local” you mean.
If you don’t shoot a button, his dam will run him off when the time comes - at about a year and a half - and most young bucks are killed as they seek out a new range.
So if you want to improve your sex ratio, you’re better off shooting a doe with twin buttons. And get your neighbors to pass on the buttons on THEIR place!
But really.... Shooting fawns of either sex has very little impact on the population because (naturally) about half of ‘em die in their first year. So it’s more important to pass on the 1.5s....
The first year I ever shot was a button that I mistook for a doe - kind of a rookie mistake, although he did dress out 90 pounds.... but I haven’t shot one since. The objective around here is herd reduction, so the objective is to remove a mature doe whenever possible. Fawns are awfully good eating, But the processing really cuts into my hunting time!
"But really.... Shooting fawns of either sex has very little impact on the population because (naturally) about half of ‘em die in their first year. So it’s more important to pass on the 1.5s...."
Good Lord! Where do you live with a 50% mortality on fawns? And, I can't get the math to work. If you shoot a button, how can he become 1.5, so you can give him a pass? You said 50% die anyway, so shoot another 20-30%? I agree with your herd reduction plan. But if you really want to be effective, shoot doe fawns, not mature does.
We do not shoot fawns on our property. We have neighbors do same and some don't but gives us a better odds of mature deer. When we want venison we shoot the mature does that will even run offs bucks. We have a must kill doe for the last two years. She will dress close to 200 lbs. She beats the crap out the bucks and all other does and fawns.
button bucks have been off limits for me for decades. just personal observation it hasn't seemed to make any difference, but i don't own or have any control over the places i hunt. every place i hunt gets hunted hard, both archery and rifle. some guys will let them walk, others just shoot whatever they want. being one guy i don't think it would matter much no matter what i kill.was just wondering what others experience was
To many are killed by mistake - why try to kill them. Dumbest deer in the woods. Often out wandering on his own away from Mom!
"managing the deer herd" has become the big buzz word in the last 10 years or more. In reality, if you manage "your" deer herd, it is done on such a small local area as not to count as deer herd management or have any impact on the deer population makeup in general. General deer management, i.e. number of doe tags, point restrictions, etc can and do change the makeup of deer populations, usually to satisfy the largest segment of the hunting population and not a small group of elite (?) hunters wanting 150 class bucks behind every bush. I say that is is called hunting and each hunter has his own idea as to what that means. Just as we each choose which weapon we use, we also choose which legal animal we want to shoot. When we start to question either of those subjects in terms of good or bad based on our personal preferences, we create a divided user group that weakens resolve and impact on maintaining our hunting privilege and seasons.
I think basic logic dictates if you want older bucks, don't shoot them young. I try not to, but killed one in late muzzleloader once thinking it was a doe. I did not lose any sleep or have any kind of personal crisis over it.
John - You are correct in that 50% first year mortality happens only very rarely these days, which is why we have that awful overpopulation issue in so many places!
But Val Geist, for example, has pointed out that where herds are thin, yet the Bios still want to be able to offer some kind of a tag to more of the people who would like to be able to hunt, then that is a good time to offer fawn-only tags, because statistically (at 50% mortality), taking a fawn removes only 1/2 of a deer from the Spring population total. And arguably even less, because a doe who loses her fawn in the fall is less subject to mortality and more likely to drop twins than one which is caring for (and competing for food against) a half-grown fawn all winter.
And even in an area with higher fawn survivorship - say it’s 90% - well, then taking a fawn = .9 individuals removed instead of .5.... Less than 1.0, regardless, whereas you take a doe (expected to drop twins), then the Spring count is down by maybe not a full 3 head, but definitely >1...
And I’m going to offer a different take on shooting doe fawns vs. adults: adults are past the high-mortality hurdle, and frequently drop twins, right? A doe fawn may not breed at all, but if she does, she’s much less likely to twin, and more likely to fawn later, exposing her Singleton to greater risk of predation or other mortality and lower odds of hitting minimum survival weight for the next winter.... Poverty Cycle.
Too, if you can whack that Lead Cow, the local mortality rate due to hunting is bound to go up!!!
Scrappy....that is the way it SHOULD be if you want to eliminate the breeders in a herd reduction situation. But Iowa could possibly be the ONLY state that specifies that provision unfortunately. IMO the state shouldn`t be telling ANY citizen what to do with their properly purchased hunting tag. The more they are involved the worse things get.
Kill a fawn, you've killed half a deer. A buck and you've killed one deer or a doe and you've killed 3. Take your pick. I live in an area where our total numbers are limited but a buck can get huge. Why in the world would I want to take 3 out of our population when I can take a "tasty" fawn and only affect our herd by half a deer. No brainer for me. Gotta get over those "Bambi feelings".
GF- You are forgetting an important factor re doe fawns. They do nothing but eat for probably 18-months and maybe longer. They contribute nothing. Whereas the mature doe, dropping twins, contributes, usually, one male fawn. The entire business of shooting doe fawns is one of numbers over contribution. By shooting doe fawns, you remove that female. Add that to natural or hunting mortality of mature does and you significantly impact the female and contributing population. However, I would only suggest this on private, well controlled, land. On public land or on a statewide basis, you regulation must be much more general and encouraging the shooting doe fawns is not a good idea. Also, I have tremendous respect for Valerius Geist. But in some areas, he is a bit outdated in his thinking.
In the northern tier states, about 60% of does give birth on their first birthday. For those who nitpick, that's and approximation both for percent and birthday.
If you kill the doe who has a buck fawn, that buck is far less likely to disperse.
I hunt some pretty heavily pressured deer on public land. If I get an opportunity to take an animal I seldom pass it up. There are plenty of big racked bucks running around and they are the smartest deer in the area. you want to be humbled as far as your hunting skills, go try and take a trophy off public land, it will certainly put you in your place.
by choice I no longer shoot any antlerless Deer & having set a personal goal for my next buck a few years back let many bucks pass too. I bowhunt for enjoyment, not survival. I hunt one private that gets gunned hard by owners family & brown is down & 1 honey hole public that I think most think is to small to hold a deer. In over 60 years of Bowhunting I did shoot a few yearlings (buttons too) but once I had a few kills under my belt I started shooting what I thought was mature antlerless & a few years after that, more selective on Bucks. I've never been privy to bowhunt any property where management was practiced of any kind other than by me. I've seen several Deer I had in easy bow range & I've passed only to be killed by the shot gunners (I never gun hunt). What a bowhunter shoots at may well be determined by what his hunting ground consists of in several ways (hunt pressure, Deer population, hunters available days afield ect.). I shoot lots of Deer with a camera & get satisfaction knowing I fooled them on their home turf.. I let this guy walk & this photo is at 15 yds as he lip curled over my scent rag on the ground. He offered me several good shots.. Good luck in your quest..
Bowriter - pretty sure we’re on the same page. Especially if a doe fawn is not expected to contribute for another year and a half (during which time she may get killed by car or coyote), then at that rate, taking an adult doe has a much greater impact on herd size, no?
Just depends where the state guys want to end up.
Maybe the difference is that I’m thinking overall population and you’re thinking just about bucks?
And in fairness to Professor Geist - that was a guest lecture nearly 30 years ago, so maybe the outdated thinking is all on me!
I don't need to kill another deer that bad where I'd shoot a fawn of either sex. I past on small bears too. But young pigs get an arrow (If I can't catch them by hand, they are shootable) and I'd shoot a moose calf. To each their own I guess.
With all the guys on bowsite shooting button bucks I figured the herd would be better off if I let them walk.
On a serious note I can’t answer the op’s question on whether or not I have noticed a difference.
Since I like shooting mature bucks it only makes sense to let all younger bucks walk. If the herd needs thinning down I would rather shoot a doe especially if she has a buck fawn.
“and I'd shoot a moose calf. ”
I’ve always maintained that a calf Elk is a damn big deer!
I’ve been more focused on the biology in this one, but... Just FWIW, I would NEVER pay to have a fawn processed, but I do my own... if tags were harder to come by, I’d pass ‘til late in the game.
Here is my take in a nutshell. When hunting on any property other than mine, if it is legal, other hunters can shoot whatever they want. None of my business. On my property, my personal preference is as follows. (1)Dry doe between 18-30 months; (2) Doe fawn at 60# approx. (3) Any buck. My management program is simple. First consideration is population control. Second is sex ratio and last of slight consideration is age strata. Antler size is never a consideration either in what I shoot or what I manage for. A male deer, regardless of age, is dead once you kill them. There is no difference between a button buck or 200", ten-point except in "wall status". I do all my own processing, so cost is not a factor. A 6-8 month old doe fawn is superb eating and around here, will field dress between 50-65 pounds. A button of the same age, about 15-pounds more. However, a dry doe between 18-30 months will fd about 75-85 pounds and is almost as tender. When available natural food is a consideration, the doe fawn is the first choice. 75% will not breed until 18-months. During that time period, they eat with no contribution. Therefore, they are the "most expensive".
I try not to shoot button bucks but I've done it by mistake a couple times. But if you are thinking you are increasing your buck population by not shooting them you are probably mistaken. I think they will probably disperse away from your land. But you'll make the neighbors a mile away happy maybe.
I have shot several when trying to shoot does. A button buck is about as big as an adult doe.
If you are bowhunting, you might be able to see the buttons. When rifle hunting, I have never seen them until I get my hands on the deer.
I've shot plenty of spike bucks, but never a button buck. Down in South TX the coyotes prey heavily on small/baby deer. I always let the baby deer walk, they have it tough enough already.
Passed up two, this morning. Was trying to shoot momma. Now, I wish I had shot one of the buttons. Saw four other bucks and two other does. Great morning.
One season when going to or leaving my stand a button buck used to stand behind some bushes just off of the trail I traveled. We would look at one another as I always kept walking. Little fellow must have thought he was well hidden / camouflaged :^} I looked forward to seeing him on those days he was there. Kind of got fond of the little rascal so I never gave a thought of shooting him.
My first deer was a button buck that I thought was a doe. Since then I check. If it's a button buck it will walk.
Not my preference.