Moultrie Products
So sick of "Training wheels"comment
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
Beendare 23-Oct-17
Beendare 23-Oct-17
sticksender 23-Oct-17
Jaquomo 23-Oct-17
Dyjack 23-Oct-17
Beendare 23-Oct-17
Dyjack 23-Oct-17
Bowfreak 23-Oct-17
midwest 23-Oct-17
stealthycat 23-Oct-17
12yards 23-Oct-17
Woods Walker 23-Oct-17
LINK 23-Oct-17
pav 23-Oct-17
cnelk 23-Oct-17
Ollie 23-Oct-17
DG2 23-Oct-17
Jaquomo 23-Oct-17
Ambush 23-Oct-17
EmbryOklahoma 23-Oct-17
Redheadtwo 23-Oct-17
BOHNTR 23-Oct-17
APauls 23-Oct-17
PECO 23-Oct-17
SteveB 23-Oct-17
Ambush 23-Oct-17
Buffalo1 23-Oct-17
PECO 23-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 23-Oct-17
Ollie 23-Oct-17
Bowriter 23-Oct-17
orionsbrother 23-Oct-17
Scar Finga 23-Oct-17
Will tell 23-Oct-17
elk yinzer 23-Oct-17
Beendare 23-Oct-17
oldgoat 23-Oct-17
Matt 23-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 23-Oct-17
kellyharris 23-Oct-17
Glunt@work 23-Oct-17
Bowfreak 23-Oct-17
Bou'bound 23-Oct-17
Ambush 23-Oct-17
GF 23-Oct-17
Salagi 23-Oct-17
Ermine 23-Oct-17
Jaquomo 23-Oct-17
bb 23-Oct-17
trkyslr 23-Oct-17
JTV 23-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 23-Oct-17
Jaquomo 23-Oct-17
Two Feathers 23-Oct-17
Salagi 23-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 24-Oct-17
AndyJ 24-Oct-17
AndyJ 24-Oct-17
Rut Nut 24-Oct-17
LBshooter 24-Oct-17
LBshooter 24-Oct-17
jjs 24-Oct-17
Glunt@work 24-Oct-17
ELKMAN 24-Oct-17
Jaquomo 24-Oct-17
kadbow 24-Oct-17
PECO 24-Oct-17
Fuzzy 24-Oct-17
Scar Finga 24-Oct-17
Owl 24-Oct-17
Kodiak 24-Oct-17
DMC65 24-Oct-17
Jaquomo 24-Oct-17
SteveB 24-Oct-17
Kodiak 24-Oct-17
TD 24-Oct-17
stealthycat 24-Oct-17
Jaquomo 24-Oct-17
loprofile 24-Oct-17
Old School 24-Oct-17
Kodiak 24-Oct-17
Nick Muche 24-Oct-17
rick allison 24-Oct-17
Jaquomo 24-Oct-17
Redheadtwo 24-Oct-17
Beendare 24-Oct-17
bb 24-Oct-17
jjs 24-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 24-Oct-17
Jaquomo 24-Oct-17
Bowriter 25-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 25-Oct-17
PECO 25-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 25-Oct-17
Matt 26-Oct-17
Phil Magistro 26-Oct-17
Rut Nut 26-Oct-17
air leak 26-Oct-17
Phil Magistro 26-Oct-17
tradmt 26-Oct-17
Kodiak 26-Oct-17
tradmt 26-Oct-17
Missouribreaks 26-Oct-17
Beendare 26-Oct-17
tradmt 26-Oct-17
PECO 26-Oct-17
Phil Magistro 26-Oct-17
Mountain sheep 26-Oct-17
Jtek 26-Oct-17
WV Mountaineer 26-Oct-17
Bou'bound 27-Oct-17
Jaquomo 27-Oct-17
tradmt 27-Oct-17
Jaquomo 27-Oct-17
Bou'bound 28-Oct-17
Jaquomo 28-Oct-17
air leak 28-Oct-17
ElkNut1 28-Oct-17
Jaquomo 28-Oct-17
Bou'bound 28-Oct-17
tradmt 28-Oct-17
tradmt 28-Oct-17
Jaquomo 28-Oct-17
PECO 28-Oct-17
ElkNut1 28-Oct-17
Beendare 28-Oct-17
kellyharris 28-Oct-17
bb 28-Oct-17
TD 28-Oct-17
tradmt 28-Oct-17
Rayzor 30-Oct-17
Tajue17 31-Oct-17
Bake 31-Oct-17
Tajue17 31-Oct-17
PECO 31-Oct-17
Ollie 31-Oct-17
DeerSpotter 31-Oct-17
Irishman 31-Oct-17
Quailhunter 06-Nov-17
tradmt 07-Nov-17
TGbow 07-Nov-17
Missouribreaks 07-Nov-17
Quailhunter 07-Nov-17
TGbow 07-Nov-17
ground hunter 07-Nov-17
Salagi 07-Nov-17
DL 08-Nov-17
TGbow 08-Nov-17
TonyL 08-Nov-17
tradmt 08-Nov-17
TrapperKayak 08-Nov-17
Missouribreaks 08-Nov-17
TrapperKayak 08-Nov-17
Bentshaft 09-Nov-17
GF 09-Nov-17
ground hunter 09-Nov-17
SteveD 10-Nov-17
Jeff Durnell 10-Nov-17
carcus 10-Nov-17
tradmt 10-Nov-17
GF 10-Nov-17
From: Beendare
23-Oct-17

Beendare's Link
And i'm [mostly] a stickbow guy! I hear this all the time from stickbow guys....why?

Below is a cut and paste from my thread on the Leatherwall...which BTW...so far so good...hopefully it won't go off the rails.

From: Beendare
23-Oct-17
My thread, "It really makes some of you look silly. For the record i love shooting a stickbow...and of course i realize the degree of difficulty.

But I also see many stickbow guys at the range....and the 'Training wheels' comment is pretty hollow when they can't keep it on a 3D animal at close range. Bashing compound guys to make yourself feel better is no worse than many of the other biases dividing our country right now.

Besides, we need to stand together as HUNTERS. We do have a common enemy- the Antis- and it seems counterproductive to alienate other hunters.

BTW, I've had the pleasure to shoot with some of the best stickbow guys in the US....you don't hear them bashing compound guys.

The guys doing this bashing remind me of the player scoring his first touchdown and doing a silly dance in the end zone. We took up stickbows for the personal challenge...we don't need to bash other weapon choices to feel better about our choice."

From: sticksender
23-Oct-17
It doesn't faze me at all, because I know how that mindset works. I suppose there are many names that could describe the average recurve/longbow shooter, but I'd never go there. What's to be gained in either case?

From: Jaquomo
23-Oct-17
Good essay

I tell those guys they might as well carry a five iron in the woods, as little success as they have with their stickbows. They could at least whack pine comes for something to do.

They always counter that compound guys disparage them, which is true to some degree given the alarming lack of accuracy most stickbow hunters demonstrate. But as one who shoots and associates with both, the hits from trad guys behind closed doors are waaaaay worse. Most compound guys respect trad shooters who do it well. I don't see that from the trad side.

From: Dyjack
23-Oct-17
They're just trying to trigger you and piss you off. Which is in fact the results they got? Keyboard warriors tend to say shit like that. It's called trolling. Don't let them hook you.

From: Beendare
23-Oct-17
Stick, agreed. My point to them is that it really does make stickbow guys look bad...AND its divisive.

Well so far I'm labelled a liberal...and I better find a 'Safe Space'...oh boy........thats what I get for trying to improve their image.

From: Dyjack
23-Oct-17
Start a thread called "best crossbows 2017" and ask them which ones are their favorites. That'll really piss em' off.

From: Bowfreak
23-Oct-17
Spot on OP.

From: midwest
23-Oct-17
Like water off a ducks back...

From: stealthycat
23-Oct-17
people hate the words "crossguns" too and the looking down at crossbow shooters that compounders love to do

what comes around goes around

From: 12yards
23-Oct-17
"people hate the words "crossguns" too and the looking down at crossbow shooters that compounders love to do what comes around goes around"

True. It will be interesting to see what comes around in 10-20 years that the crossbow hunters will look down their nose at. LOL.

From: Woods Walker
23-Oct-17
AIR bows!!!

From: LINK
23-Oct-17
Most draw a line somewhere. Some draw it at at compounds some at crossbows or air bows. I have no problem with lines and arguing where that line should be but there's no reason to demean anyone for where they put theirs.

From: pav
23-Oct-17
Some of my best friends are traditional only. They have teased me about using "training wheels" for as long as I can remember. Never stopped us from sharing a campfire. Like midwest said....water off a ducks back.

From: cnelk
23-Oct-17
Who you calling a duck? :)

From: Ollie
23-Oct-17
The childish comments flow in both directions. Seems to me that the worst offenders are those who have just converted from compounds to traditional bows and for some reason feel a need to reject their not so distant past.

From: DG2
23-Oct-17
A few weeks ago Uruguay border inspection lady described my compound bow as "motor arco" = motor bow (she obviously did not know correct word). I think it was a bit degrading...

From: Jaquomo
23-Oct-17
+1 Ollie, although I nearly lost a couple friendships from "die hard trad guys" when I bought a compound just to see what it was like. But the worst do seem to be the new converts. They found religion.

From: Ambush
23-Oct-17
Couple of guys used to give us that old saying at every 3D shoot. And they were only kind’a joking.

Finally after about the twentieth time being asked, I said, “I’ll give up the training wheels when I’m tired of eating game meat”. I knew neither one of them had a big game bow kill to their credit. And when they did hunt, it was with a rifle. They were a bit sour for awhile, but got over it.

It’s usually not what is said, it’s more often how it is said.

23-Oct-17
What I usually see is the ones that use the "training wheels" comment can't hit the broadside of a barn with their traditional bow. I shoot both, and enjoy shooting both. Beendare, you're correct, it's a pretty hollow comment. If a person feels better by taking jabs, then they've usually got other problems.

From: Redheadtwo
23-Oct-17
My son and I was at a 3D shoot many years ago. Ran into a group of four shooting compounds with one particular smartass not wanting to let my son and me shoot thru,commenting neither one of us could hit the target even if we were one foot away. They didn't pull their arrows before we shot either. I robin hooded his ACC arrow and my son nicked the point. No negative comment was made except to tell the tradbow basher don't knock Tradbow,we're all in this together.

From: BOHNTR
23-Oct-17
"Wood is goooood......but if you want to win, better get a pin". :)

From: APauls
23-Oct-17
lol. I just use a recurve for all my artsy pictures and then I kill everything with a compound. Best of both worlds ;) if I need I can always get a photoshop expert to dress me in plaid.

From: PECO
23-Oct-17
Like I said on the other thread, I shoot trad and compounds. I find terms like training wheels, girly trad bow, butt hurt or panties in a wad very funny and do not take it serious.

From: SteveB
23-Oct-17
Typical elitists. I have always respected anyone who shoots trad and does it well. I even respect those like myself who shoot trad but choose not to use it on game (yet). Trad guys who bash have no right to do so, especially if they use modern broadheads and don't sharpen their own flint :)

From: Ambush
23-Oct-17
......... well, until they’ start advocating mechanicals anyway.... lol

From: Buffalo1
23-Oct-17
I was in a bear hunt in Alberta. Was sharing the camp with several gun hunters from Spain. They referred to my bow (a compound) as "the arc". Never forgot comment. They appreciated that I was hunting with an "arc."

From: PECO
23-Oct-17
I see plenty of elitist shooting compound bows also.

23-Oct-17
Now you can see why many youth choose something other than hunting as their hobby.

From: Ollie
23-Oct-17
There is a fine line difference between "kidding" and deliberately trying to belittle someone. Some people don't seem to understand that when they make comments like "training wheels." It's one thing to say that to friends at the local shoot that you kid around with and another when you make the same comments around people who don't know you.

From: Bowriter
23-Oct-17
I agree with the original post. Very similar to calling a crossbow, a crossgun. Isn't it? :)

23-Oct-17
I seriously considered becoming an elitist, but heard the initiation ceremony was painful.

From: Scar Finga
23-Oct-17
I shoot what I want, when I want... I could care less if you like it or not. LB, R.C. Wheel bow, hard cams, single cam, even one of those new fangled carbon bows with ALLLLL the bells and whistles:) Shoot whatever makes you happy:) But let everyone lese do the same.

From: Will tell
23-Oct-17
I shoot a self bow, recurve, longbow and a compound so I guess I'm guilty on all counts.lol I'm a very good shot with my self bow out to 15 yards, 20 yards with my recurves and longbows, 35 yards with my compound. Whatever floats your boat, I don't care what anyone shoots, including a cross bow. Hunt any way you want with whatever you want to hunt with.

From: elk yinzer
23-Oct-17
At least we are all morally superior to crossgunners.

From: Beendare
23-Oct-17
TradMT, I answered you on the Leatherwall.

Seriously, I've seen your posts over the years and you seem like an experienced accomplished hunter. You can speak the truth here....few of the Leatherwallers tread here .

You see these elitist 'trad' shooters all the time.....isn't it just a little bit sickening?

Its kind of funny really....talk to Alan Eagleton, Matt Potter, Larry Yuen...or even the guys that are killing machines with a stick bow....they aren't making stupid elitist type comments.

From: oldgoat
23-Oct-17

oldgoat's embedded Photo
oldgoat's embedded Photo
I don't know it goes back to the old if they can't take a joke thing to me. And the people I say it to know I'm kidding and hardly a purist when it comes to trad. O shoot carbon arrows, wear modern hunting clothes, use a smart phone for my navigation and most importantly I like to have fun! If they are too thin skinned to hear that they probably ought naught hang around me and I can take what I dish out. I also pretty regularly turn in scores higher than some of the bowhunter class scores at the shoots I go to, but I'll caveat that with I'm closer to the target than them so it irons out in the wash some! So I'll keep using the term and poking fun and taking it in return and having fun with my friends whatever they shoot!

From: Matt
23-Oct-17
Jaq is onto something.

In my 20+ years of bowhunting, I've found it almost universally to be the case that guys who make derogatory comments about other's equipment choiced are being defensive of their own inadequacies.

Rarely have I heard a competent bowhunter - be they stick or wheel - disparage another bowhunter's equipment choice.

But when all a guy has is their equipment (empty freezers and bare walls), they can get snippy.

23-Oct-17
" Seems to me that the worst offenders are those who have just converted from compounds to traditional bows and for some reason feel a need to reject their not so distant past.:

^^^^^Exactly^^^^^^^.

I recognize most of the guys that really mean it, are guys who have just started to hunt with a traditional bow, have killed zero with it, and are boosting their not so certain mind that they got this. Its the pecking order flexing. Ever notice that the male lion in charge of the pride rarely gets involved in the dirty work? But, when he does, it is to the point and effective. That kinda sums up the LW crowd.

The loudest are the ones trying to gain acceptance. They are the same ones wanting to know if 4" feathers will work, if their bow will kill a deer, if their broadhead will work, etc... And, if you went back and searched long enough, nearly every one of them would have a post that alludes to their disdain of compound bows.

I grew up hunting with recurves. I've shot them a bunch and there is zero doubt I'm a might bit better shot than most guys that do it. Back then even. But, I couldn't wait until I had saved enough money to actual buy some training wheels. :^) I have never had a problem killing my freezers full every year, regardless of the bows I used. So, I pay little attention to the heckling. Heck, I liked compounds so much that I switched back to them "training wheels" again this year. I get bored easily. :^) God Bless men

From: kellyharris
23-Oct-17
Yes I believe it’s a stupid comment just like people who call a crossbow a stick gun or a cross gun!

But I do have a question I know you reference to a traditional bow as a stick bow is that actually what it’s called?

I am just waiting to see what goofy name calling the crossbow folks will Call the new airbows that recently came out?

Will Tell x100

From: Glunt@work
23-Oct-17
I razz my compound buddies all the time and they razz me about carrying around a chunk of firewood. Its all in the delivery. If it is actually meant as an insult, that would be useless and negative. When used to give your friend a hard time and see what he has for a comeback, its great.

Trad guys don't have the corner on the elitist market. Many compounders don't like crossbows or rifles, some old school muzzleloaders look down on in-lines, some rifle hunters look down on guys shooting the latest 800 yard gear, some flyfishermen look down on baitcasters, etc. Heck, you can even find a Tenkara fishermen looking down on a flyfisherman using a reel.

I shall continue to razz my buddies and hope they continue to razz me. With the guys I hang around, you only need to worry when they stop giving you a hard time.

If someone is serious when they look down their nose at whatever I happen to be carrying that day, they go on the ignore list. Life is short.

For every trad guy I see rolling their eyes because the compounders in front of them at the 3D are taking forever to shoot, I also see a compounder rolling his eyes while the trad guy looks for his arrow that glanced off the horns and into the bushes :^)

From: Bowfreak
23-Oct-17
Tradmt,

It seems you are taking this serious.... serious to the point of posting F bombs.

Nice.

From: Bou'bound
23-Oct-17
I just respond sticks and stones may break my bones but your words will never hurt me

From: Ambush
23-Oct-17
“sticks and stones could break bones” IF the guys flinging them could hit anything. Bwaahaha!

From: GF
23-Oct-17
"Most compound guys respect trad shooters who do it well. I don't see that from the trad side."

I think that one cuts right to the bone. It takes a special kind of person to belittle someone else for being good at something that "Mr. Special" cannot actually DO. The same people will accuse you of "Cheating" if you out-shoot them using the exact same set-up that they use, only you have the audacity - nay, the GALL - to actually check to see where your arrow is going before you turn it loose. The Pure Of Heart, they say, would rather miss than aim.

I don't make fun of mechanics, plumbers, electricians, pipefitters, welders, carpenters or anybody else who can do things that frankly, I have to pay somebody else to do if I want them done right.

And I have a helluvalot less respect for a guy who cripples with a "trad" bow than for a guy who picks up the wheels when it's time to go hunting because he's not sure of himself with a recurve. Some of the NeoTards say that a guy like that lacks commitment to the Real Bow, but I appreciate the commitment to the Clean Kill Ethic a lot MORE.

And... truth be told......

My MAX effective range with a compound - even one that shot +/-3" out to 23 yards - was about 18-20 yards, because any farther than that - out in the woods - and I couldn't ever figure out whether to use the #1 pin or the #2, and I'd shoot 0s or 5s - high and low. They wouldabeen 10s or 12s if I hadn't missed clean, but for actual hunting purposes, I'll take an 8. All day long, every damn day. Yeah, I suppose I could do better with a rangefinder, but I didn't care to spend for one.... So personally, I'm better out to longer ranges with a recurve or LB.

It's like OronsBrother said - "I seriously considered becoming an elitist, but heard the initiation ceremony was painful." For me, that Initiation Ceremony involved the loss of 3 or 4 brand-new carbons on a single trip around the 3D course. I maybe could've gotten better at judging distances and choosing pins, but I just couldn't afford the cost of the education!

From: Salagi
23-Oct-17
"few of the Leatherwallers tread here ."

There are a lot more that wander over here than you think. ;)

And for the record, I often tell the compound shooters I know that one day they will grow up, get rid of the training wheels and shoot a real bow. Not a one has ever taken it personal. I can't help but laugh when compounders or the trad guys get huffy because they think the 'other side" is making fun of them.

From: Ermine
23-Oct-17
I wouldn't be bothered by that. I think it's fun. I joke with my trad buddies that I use trading wheels or shoot a "rocket launcher." It's all fun and games to me. Doesn't bother me. But I also shoot pink fletched arrows. Some say "real Men don't shoot pink."

23-Oct-17
You guys can argue about this, Im going to go get my Atlatl and hit the woods

From: Jaquomo
23-Oct-17
I broke my vow and wandered over to the LW to read the thread. Lots of interesting perspectives, less hating than I expected. Mostly justification of personal reasons to shoot stickbows with some not-so-subtle slams sprinkled in. For many, "trad" defines their identity and they wear it on their sleeves.

Still really funny to read posts from some who bash others for choosing to hunt with a weapon that gives them MORE accuracy and better results in the field.

This reinforces my theory - and maybe it's more of an East coast thing - that a significant percentage of trad "shooters" are more about the whole trad thing and less about serious hunting. And that's ok. True bowhunters will struggle to understand it, and they struggle to understand the desire to succeed in the field by using equipment that is more accurate, and arguably more ethical.

Salagi, no doubt many Leatherwallers wander over here. Many of them enjoy seeing photos of big bow-killed animals. (Couldn't resist!)

From: bb
23-Oct-17
It seems to me like there are way more important things to argue about....things that actually have meaning...like efoc

From: trkyslr
23-Oct-17
Matt’s response is spot on. Heard it and seen it first hand.

From: JTV
23-Oct-17
Heck, I need those training wheels 'cause I cant shoot a recurve well enough to hunt with....yet ..

23-Oct-17
The most accurate and lethal are the scoped crossbow and rifle. If accuracy and ethics are criteria, then perhaps bowhunting should end for more lethal and humane methods. Talk about handing it right to the Liberals.

From: Jaquomo
23-Oct-17
If ethics and accuracy aren't criteria for everything we do, then God help us. If that's how the majority of bowhunters feel in their heart, bowhunting will eventually end through lack of public acceptance forcing the hand of politicians.

It's the platform the anti-bowhunting campaign already uses and will hammer home in the mass media campaign when/if they put it on the ballot in CA, OR, and WA, as promised. Bowhunting cruelty may become the "transgender bathroom" issue of the day someday.

From: Two Feathers
23-Oct-17
Tonight I was helping my grandson change sights on his compound and set pins. I told him the reason I enjoy my stickbow so much is because it's so simple. I don't rag anybody about what they shoot. It's their weapon of choice.

From: Salagi
23-Oct-17
"Salagi, no doubt many Leatherwallers wander over here. Many of them enjoy seeing photos of big bow-killed animals. (Couldn't resist!)"

Now that got a laugh from me for sure. ;) I enjoy hunting, period. Use what you want as long as it's legal. I haven't shot a compound in years because I just have more fun with a recurve. Sometimes tho, I read some posts on the LW or BS and borrow Dad's crossbow and go hunting just for spite. So there :P

24-Oct-17
When hunters accuse other hunters of causing wounding and suffering due to inferior weapons such as stickbows,........ well then Hillary and her liberal anti hunting Obama crowd will win sooner than they would have. Maybe they are correct...... if even experienced hunters feel the same way?

From: AndyJ
24-Oct-17
Kind of an addition to Missouri’s comment above: I would venture to say no hunter group wounds more than any other. We are all about equal, we just do it at different distances.

Ermine-I too am a pink vanes/ feathers guy. I swear pink stands out better than any other color.

From: AndyJ
24-Oct-17
Kind of an addition to Missouri’s comment above: I would venture to say no hunter group wounds more than any other. We are all about equal, we just do it at different distances.

Ermine-I too am a pink vanes/ feathers guy. I swear pink stands out better than any other color.

From: Rut Nut
24-Oct-17
I always laugh when I hear somebody say "training wheels"! : )

From: LBshooter
24-Oct-17
I hunt public and the wheel guys give me the bs every now and then and I take it as just banter. The best is when I drag a nice deer out of the woods and they walkout empty handed. One guy who I dislike and try not to have anything to do with came out one night saying he saw this big 9 pt and was all jazzed up. Two days later I asked knowing full well the answer, if he would give m e a hand dragging out this big 9 pt I shot. The guy was so ticked he jumped in his truck and left lol. Don't worry about what guys say, the old sticks and stones , let your taking of game do your talking. Regardless of weapon it's like in fishing, it's not the stick, it's the man behind it.

From: LBshooter
24-Oct-17
I hunt public and the wheel guys give me the bs every now and then and I take it as just banter. The best is when I drag a nice deer out of the woods and they walkout empty handed. One guy who I dislike and try not to have anything to do with came out one night saying he saw this big 9 pt and was all jazzed up. Two days later I asked knowing full well the answer, if he would give m e a hand dragging out this big 9 pt I shot. The guy was so ticked he jumped in his truck and left lol. Don't worry about what guys say, the old sticks and stones , let your taking of game do your talking. Regardless of weapon it's like in fishing, it's not the stick, it's the man behind it.

From: jjs
24-Oct-17
Jaquamo , "Transgender" or PED that is what I call the x-bow in bow hunting, is it a gun or a bow just confusing like the bathroom. We lost what bow hunting was about and just turn it into a quick kill gun hunt. A line has to be drawn or maybe it is to late with the push for the airgun. Simple solution is to drop the release in bowhunting and you still have the compound, all I know the time spent with the bow to be the most proficient in hunting is being lost, as a gent told me he dropped his use of the compound for the x-bow because he doesn't have to practice, that explains it all. Enjoy the hunt.

From: Glunt@work
24-Oct-17
Rifle, crossbow, compound, trad bow. They are all equally "ethical" and lethal when used correctly. Someone shooting too far, at the wrong moment, etc is just as risky no matter what weapon they have in hand.

From: ELKMAN
24-Oct-17
I agree Bruce. It's very hollow when 90% of the clowns saying it couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with a hand full of sand from 12 yards. (And I too love my stick bows)

From: Jaquomo
24-Oct-17
Glunt, no question. "When used correctly" is the key. Which is why many are concerned about guys who purposely choose to hunt with a trad tool with which they aren't proficient. Is it ego? Vanity? A desire to emulate the "old timers"? I don't want to hear the "Its about the challenge of getting closer" story. That's arrogance, because you can choose to get just as close with a .338.

It's one thing to take a shot beyond effective range or release as the animal moves. Its another thing to deliberately hunt with something that you only hope will hit the target because your arrows are all over the bales at the range. Like the bow shop guy told me as he was searching for his arrows behind the target, "That's just traditional archery!". No it's not. It cracks me up to hear trad guys complaining about someone using a hunting weapon that offers better accuracy.

The old "what bowhunting used to be" excuse is hilarious, too. Anyone who has read the books, articles and journals of the old timers knows they flung wild arrows at running animals at long distance just hoping to get an arrow in them somewhere. Ethics and expectations of hunters were different back then.

This applies to crappy rifle shots too, but this thread isn't about gun hunters.

From: kadbow
24-Oct-17
If stuff like that bothers you how do you deal with real life?

From: PECO
24-Oct-17
"Dropping the release from bow hunting" The manufactures would love that, they can sell many long ATA bows, all those short compounds would be hell to shoot without a release.

From: Fuzzy
24-Oct-17
lol... how about "beginner's aid" or "crutch"?

From: Scar Finga
24-Oct-17
Man I know more guys that can't shoot a rifle worth a crap than guys that can't shoot a LB or RC worth a crap! Laming shots, bad hits, risky shots etc...

From: Owl
24-Oct-17
We are all ice skating uphill to placate our own respective sense of aesthetics, anyway. Well, and to exercise (or exorcise) elements of our own psychology. It is ridiculous to split hairs at this minute level of differentiation and to do so is ultimately revealing of the character of stated psychology.

From: Kodiak
24-Oct-17
Well let's face it, a compound isn't really a bow.

1st world problems.

From: DMC65
24-Oct-17
Styrofoam critters don't compare to live ones. I have seen plenty of guys that can kill every foam deer they shoot at. All the crap talk that goes on at the range is just that, crap. Some of those guys are sponsored shooters and I hear the missing and wounding stories from them every season.Being proficient with the weapon we choose to hunt with is what matters , not the weapon. There are guys and gals that are perfectionists and some who are hacks and everything in between. It is our responsibility to know our equipment and it's limitations as well as our own abilities . It's just plain childish to bash another person for not using the gear that we choose to hunt with. In the end it's all about making an ethical shot. I shoot a compound . I love that bow and it has put literally thousands of pounds of meat on my family's dinner plate. Bowhunting is different from bow shooting. The pride factor should not be dictated by the equipment we use but by how well we use it. Just my 2 cents...

From: Jaquomo
24-Oct-17
Scar finga, agree. Difference is that there aren't photos all over the internet and in the newspapers of animals wounded by bullets, like there are of animals with arrows sticking out of them somewhere. Granted, that's often from idiots poaching, kids shooting, just plain unfortunate hits. But that doesn't matter to non-hunting voters. Its the image that sticks. When this goes on the ballot, we're going to have a tough time defending what we do.

DMC hits the nail about being proficient with the weapon we use. Which reinforces my point about deliberately choosing to hunt with a weapon that the shooter KNOWS he isn't proficient with.

Not sure what you mean, Kodiak, but if it's how it sounds and not tongue-in-cheek, then you are part of the "First World" problem.

From: SteveB
24-Oct-17
So.....if a guy shoots both ways is he a Transbowhunter? We just want to be accepted.

From: Kodiak
24-Oct-17
Hey Jaq, no I don't think they are bows. That doesn't mean I think yer a bad person for using one...modern inlines ain't smoke poles either. But I digress...

1st world problems.

From: TD
24-Oct-17
I'd guess most times it's just kidding around. But to some they do have a serious problem with compounds. To the point they blame much of their lack of success on them. They see a buck taken by a compound and to them that person shot the deer THEY should have taken..... TOO many hunters in the field because of compounds, the hunting pressure makes it harder for those of us who chose to make it, um.... harder..... They don't take archery seriously like I do.... don't deserve it.... didn't put in the time and work I do, I could kill big animals all the time if I chose to.... etc. etc..... some seriously have issues and when there are issues it's easier to lay them at the feet of others than to own them.

Normally followed by a plea to start an exclusive trad only season...... so they could have the place to themselves.....

From: stealthycat
24-Oct-17
"It will be interesting to see what comes around in 10-20 years that the crossbow hunters will look down their nose at. LOL."

well, if the trend goes like compounds did, crossbows will be archery and bowhunting, and compounds will be blessed if they're allowed in those seasons

irony at its best isn't it ?

From: Jaquomo
24-Oct-17
Kodiak, I don't think modern laminated trad bows with plywood risers and carbon cores and Fast Flite strings are "bows" either, in the pure sense of the meaning, but I don't look down my nose at guys who use them. So unless you're shooting a selfbow, you are shooting a "modern bow" no matter how you try to justify it in your own mind.

"First World problems" occur when activities that we take for granted are put on the ballot for the general public to vote on, and perception trumps reality. (See: CO bear hunting..)

If the day ever comes when proficiency tests are required (as in other countries and with some outfitters) I wonder how many trad snobs will stick to their principles and give up bowhunting rather than switch to a more accurate weapon? I already know a friend who made that choice after his landowner enacted a "compound-only" rule after several wounded and unrecovered animals were found. I know elk outfitters who won't accept trad hunters anymore.

From: loprofile
24-Oct-17
Wounding animals is a risk everyone assumes when they decide to hunt, regardless of weapon.

From: Old School
24-Oct-17
I picked up trad gear for the challenge of instinctive shooting and I really enjoy it but I still shoot my compound some days as well. I don't care what others legally hunt with. I choose my weapon based on where I'm hunting. This year elk hunting, I took my compound due to the high chance of a 40 yard shot. Tonight I'll take my Bowtech to the woods as my stand for tonight offers 40 yard shots and I'm not proficient at that range with my longbow. This weekend I'll be hunting with my boys and my dad. I'll use my longbow, my sons will use their compounds and my dad will shoot his crossbow...and somehow we all get along. :-)

Know your limitations no matter what your weapon (and stick to them when the moment of truth arrives). A trad guy shooting at 40 when he can't hit consistently at 20 is equally disturbing as the compound shooter shooting at 60 when he can't hit consistently at 40.

--Mitch

From: Kodiak
24-Oct-17
Jaq, modern traditional bows operate exactly the same as they did 10,000 years ago...so yes, they are bows. End of story.

Compounds are complex machines that happen to propel an arrow.

I couldn't possibly care less if someone wants to use a machine gun to hunt deer, I'm more interested in having an honest discussion.

'Training Wheels' is offensive? Only if yer wound too tight.

1st world problems.

From: Nick Muche
24-Oct-17
I was once told that I'd have no success had I shot a trad bow instead of a compound. So I picked one up and three weeks later I killed a bear. The guy who called me out has wounded more game than anyone I know and has still only taken one animal with his "stick" in 10 years of putting down other bowhunters.

From: rick allison
24-Oct-17
I'm a stickbow shooter (hate the term "trad"...lol). It's all I've used for over 30 years, and it's my choice because I like them...period...end of story.

I shot compounds in the late 70's - into the 80's. Killed a lot of deer, had a lot of fun, but I just returned to my roots.

While I'll admit I'm not a fan of crossbows in the hands of an ablebodied hunter, I'll lose no sleep over it. Most guys I know shoot compounds and that's just fine.

I commented briefly over on LW...I don't understand the "elitist" attitude on either side of the fence. The internal bickering amongst hunters is fuel for the anti's fire.

Stop it! Play nice with the other kids.......

From: Jaquomo
24-Oct-17
Kodiak, fair enough, we can agree to disagree.

Ever since modern bows hit the commercial market I've had a problem with trad snobs putting down those who shoot and hunt with them. I only picked one up several years ago because frankly I was getting bored with trad, killing big animals with longbows and recurves was becoming routine, and I needed a different challenge. I wanted to see what the big deal was and had no moral or religious attachment to my wood and fiberglass laminated bows. I'm having fun again, learning the process and trying to become as proficient as I can with it, hunting the exact same way I did before with shots inside 40 yards.

I did put it away and went back to modern recurve for a couple years, killed more record book animals but was still bored, so I went back to the modern bow. I still draw the string with the arrow nocked, anchor, focus on the spot, release and follow through. As Nick discovered, it ain't the weapon that makes the hunter.

I don't know many elitists on the modern bow side, but sure know some on the high tech modern "traditional" side. Most of them rarely, if ever kill anything.

From: Redheadtwo
24-Oct-17
In the same vein...traditional shooters have a propensity for missing or wounding game more than a compound shooter.

But...what about the compound shooters that have the mentality of buying a compound at a pro shop,spending a few hours getting said bow set up and sighted in,then going out the next day to hunt? Not trying to start a new argument,just a different angle.

From: Beendare
24-Oct-17
Some good comments on both sites actually; compound guys and stickbow guys....kudos to the guys shrugging it off...and some of these posts are just LMAO funny.

I think we all realize, its not the "Training wheels" thing...its the "Holier Than Thou" attitude.....and its good to know that its only a tiny % of archers.

The stickbow guys from SD I hunted moose with in BC many years ago were an insufferable bunch. It wasn't ribbing with them...they truly hated anyone shooting a wheel bow [as i was at the time] "Compound shooters suck, we can just step out and shoot" Yatta Yatta...and they couldn't shoot a lick.

Long story but these guys had some fantastic opportunities...we called a big bull from about 1/2 mi away right to the one guy..he literally couldn't draw his bow with a crusher moose at 15 yds...leg looked like he was working a sewing machine. He wouldn't hunt after that....the guy was in over his head. If he wasn't such a dick, i would have felt bad.

Another great opportunity, The 2nd guy refused a 27 yd broadside shot on a bull that just stood there for probably 2 full minutes while our guide kept whispering to him...."this ain't a whitetail, SHOOT!" Bull was huge...probably a garbage can lid kill zone, "I only shoot 20 yds" he said later.

Finally we got on another crusher bull....and the one guy shot it with the guides rifle from the rubber raft. That in itself was one of the funniest moments in my hunting days. We were drifting in closer and closer at dusk 100yds, 80yds, 50yds while the bull just stood there next to a cow looking at us. Right as he was about to shoot his buddy stands up,. The boat is rocking, our guide is cussing at the buddy to sit the eff down...the shooter saying, "I can't see him" OMG it was hilarious...and it went on for almost a minute as we just kept drifting closer. I thought Brett our guide was going to blow a gasket. first shot 10' in front of the 40 yd bull, next shot hind qtr, next shot down....all while Brett was now screaming, "Hit him again".

We got out of the raft...and i didn't know what this guy was going to do...punch Brett. Instead we all high fived, Brett and he hugged..... like he had just made a one shot at 500yd kill.

PS; That Trad Stud had us take a million trophy pictures of him, the bull and his bow.

So there is no misinterpretation here, THOSE are the kind of guys I'm talking about that give the rest of us a bad name.

From: bb
24-Oct-17
“Compounds are complex machines that happen to propel an arrow. “

Compounds are machines, designed for and intended to propel arrows.

Stick bows are machines that are designed for and intended to propel arrows.

One is just better at it than another.

From: jjs
24-Oct-17
A good read is the study from the Fed Wildlife Manager that set the McAlester, Ok. trad hunt, the story I think was run in TBM back in the 90s. He addressed the reason for the trad hunt only and did the study on the compound and trad bows and came up with the trad hunt to much of the dismay of the compound hunters. A good friend during that time talked to him and got the report where we took it over the nearby Army Ft. to try and set up a similar hunt, which did not go because of the politics, but the Manager was impressed with the study. Infact, if I was kid getting started I would probably go with the x-bow since there is very little time I need to spend with it and go and get my quick kill to get in and out fast to the gamer, just shoot the x-bow couple times a yr and hang it up for the following yr just like the rifle.

24-Oct-17
The crossbow is the ticket. It will solve our image if all very young children start out with one, and parents will get off easy as less time and work involved to get their kid first blood. The younger the better. I am sure most will convert to a lesser weapon later.

From: Jaquomo
24-Oct-17
Great idea! Every kid should have a crossbow and a foam deer target from the age of 7 on. They should allow them to shoot in the schools, and have shooting contests. Make them hit the 8 ring to get lunch. Might keep them out of the malls and off the soccer fields, and help solve our problem with hunter recruitment.

From: Bowriter
25-Oct-17
Jaquomo- Just FYI-The archery in the schools program is huge, here. First year participants, 86% do not hunt. Second year participants, 54%. Of course, they are shooting vertical bows, not crossbows. But offering archery under proper supervision is or could be, a huge boon to hunting in general and bowhunting in particular. In that vein, getting a kid started, no matter what equipment used, I have to consider a plus. I would much rather have a kid hunting with crossbow than playing video games.

25-Oct-17
The answer long term is not to start killing and wounding at a younger age. I do not think hunters gain non hunting voter sympathy with these type of pictures, especially from the largely anti hunting liberal Dems. No doubt a few of the child hunters will stick with hunting or be sympathetic to it, however some will become grossly turned off at a spine shot and moan. They have to be ready to handle the occasional non perfect picture imprinted in their mind. Very young child box and pop up blind trigger pullers are not our answer to the problem of image,(see other thread).

I think it amusing that many hunters claim crossbows are too heavy and bulky to hunt with and offer no advantage( it is written all over this forum)...yet very young male and female hunters routinely pick deer off with them( pictures on this forum too).

From: PECO
25-Oct-17
Jaquomo, what is wrong with soccer?

25-Oct-17
They pick them off shooting from rests. A crossbow is a burden. When was the last tie you saqw a hunter toting one 3 miles from a road?

You are a broken record man. PO'ed at the anyone who suggests we should be proactive to recruit into our hunting society. You talk as if you expect kids to grow into mature adults that just transition into hunting. Yet moan about all the hunters. What exactly is your idea of how things should go? I'm so confused by you over your never failing desire to complain about everything. The P&Y club, hunters who hunt with a compound, crossbows, guns, a season for all weapons being the best, etc..... Ghee man, you are a the thorn in everything that gets proposed. So, what is the answer? Put buckskin on everyone that wants to go and, ensure they can nap a stone point before being given permission to go? What do you propose about getting young people involved? Keeping all people already included involved? And, putting out a good image of hunting?

I know this is going to come as a shock to you elitist people but, some people actually enjoy killing something every once in a while. After spending 25 years hunting with a trad bow, that in itself eliminates about 95% of the people that hunt if they were forced to do it your way. So what is your point every time you do this?

From: Matt
26-Oct-17
"Jaquomo, what is wrong with soccer? "

Do you honestly have to ask?

26-Oct-17
It's disconcerting that beendare had to drag this over here to kick the hornet's nest. Criticizing someone else's choices just seems to be part of the fabric in society. It's clearly present here to - just look at many of the comments about Subarus. Then the criticizing sets off a chain reaction of defensiveness and more criticizing.

There are advantages to using compounds just as there are advantages to using traditional bows. What matters is the person's abilities, not the equipment. Accuracy isn't a function of the equipment, it depends on the shooters capabilities. For some, shooting a recurve is the ideal weapon. For other's it's a compound and for still others it's a different weapon, whether crossbow or rifle. Regardless of the choice or reasons, it should not be open to being publicly criticized by others. Quite a few of the most successful bowhunters I know or have paid attention to use traditional bows so I know it's not the equipment that matters.

I have been shooting with traditional bows a long time. Used a compound for two brief periods - one when they were introduced in the late 70s and one several years ago when I had shoulder issues that prevented me from shooting recurves or longbows. I never changed the way I hunted or the person I was when I used a compound versus any other bow.

I do agree with some of the comments. If "training wheels" are used between friends to joke that shouldn't be a problem. But generically calling referring to compounds as training wheels does show poor judgement. In my experience, as was mentioned, the worst offenders are the recent converts, just like reformed smokers used to be or recent converts in religion. Having been to numerous traditional 3-d shoots over the years I do believe many of the folks shooting traditional bows should shoot a compound, crossbow or rifle. I realize that a 3-D shoot is usually more of a social gathering than a serious competition but it is eye-opening to see how many people with fancy, expensive custom bows are usually overbowed or have lousy technique and cannot hit the kill zone of a deer at 20 yards. For any of them to talk down about compounds is ridiculous.

From: Rut Nut
26-Oct-17
No big deal Phil! Some of us just pull up our BIG BOY Britches a little higher. One of these years I hope to get a picture of a big 'ol Elk Rack strapped to the roof rack of my Forester! And I'm big on USA Swimming and Track and Field! ;-)

From: air leak
26-Oct-17
Someone please explain it to me as to why anyone cares what other hunters use?

26-Oct-17
I'd like to see that elk photo Perry!

I've owned three Subarus over the years and they never let me down.

From: tradmt
26-Oct-17
What do you get when you pair a Subaru with a training wheel bowhunter ?.........

From: Kodiak
26-Oct-17

Kodiak  's embedded Photo
Kodiak  's embedded Photo

From: tradmt
26-Oct-17
Looks real stable and easier to drive. :)

26-Oct-17
WV, there is no answer from me. I ask thought provoking questions, questions game managers, bowhunters and the P&Y club need to think about for the near and distant future, especially with the voters of ballot box game management and the crossbow revolution. You can call that pot stirring, but my years as a CEO taught me to ask futuristic questions to the Directors..... and collectively they find a path forward, if there is one. Too often posters say what happens in their small world of forty acres, and forget that other states and species of animals exist that are also impacted by issues of technology and image. I never belittle any individual, just ask the impact or consequences in the greater realm.

From: Beendare
26-Oct-17
Phil, I regret titling the thread as I did. If you read my posts....and many of the others on the Leatherwall and here....what I refer to is the crowd with the 'Holier than thou' attitude that some have....and I think it hurts their whole segment of the sport.

My post on the moose hunt above sums up the guys with attitude I'm talking about here.

So point fingers at me if you will...call my bow a chunk of firewood...make a crack about 'shooting from the skirt stake"...I get it, its all good.

From: tradmt
26-Oct-17
It is all good.

From: PECO
26-Oct-17

PECO's embedded Photo
PECO's embedded Photo
Someone say Subaru?

26-Oct-17
Beendare - I don't disagree with you about the segment that has the holier-than-thou attitude. There is no room for that.

About shooting from the skirt stake - I prefer (as long as it is safe) to not shoot from any stake and really like longer shots. I can shoot at 20 yards all day at home (well, it's really 17 yards) and like to get out and watch the arrow fly. That's why I go stump shooting every chance I get. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with shooting from wherever one feels comfortable.

26-Oct-17
Lol

From: Jtek
26-Oct-17
I agree the x-bow is a great recruiting item. Problem is that it is bringing in a lot of questionable activity. I know lots of guys attempting, and luckily mostly missing, 80 to 105 yard x-bow shots. Ya, that is archery! I know wounding is a part of archery but where is the line here.

26-Oct-17
My subaru'S never got the gas mileages they were supposed too. Never were as reliable as they are touted to be. Were basic junk. And I've owned three of them. Pushed the last one on the Ford lot to trade it in. Seriously. Been the best thing I ever did.

From: Bou'bound
27-Oct-17
Did any person who’s opinion you cared about ever say that to you?

From: Jaquomo
27-Oct-17
Bou'bound, yes, absolutely. I even saved a horrible email string from some friends who were my best hunting and shooting friends at the time, who were genuinely pissed off that I bought a compound.

The entire discussion got really ugly and angry. "Homo bow", "Queer bow", "Devil bow" , "button suckers", "selling out", were some of the nicer comments that didn't involve profanities or my sexual preferences. I had heard these mutterings when we were together on the 3-D courses for years but figured They were joking. Nope, it was a genuine distain for people shooting compounds. They eventually calmed down and we agreed to disagree (while they continued to rip me whenever we were together, and I ignored them).

I came close to ending one long term friendship because of that. It was ugly and I saw the true nature of some committed trad snobs that I didn't know existed. If they were saying that crap to me, a great friend for decades, I can only imagine what they say behind people's backs. Made me ashamed to be associated with tradholes.

From: tradmt
27-Oct-17
Those weren't friends, even though you thought they were.

From: Jaquomo
27-Oct-17
Tradmt, beg to differ. We've been close friends, hunted and fished and shot together for decades, we socialize together, were "close", personally. But for them the "trad" thing is like a religion. Its truly an issue of principle. It was if I had betrayed the "Btotherhood".

As I mentioned in an earlier post, one chose to quit bowhunting elk rather than concede to the landowner's new rule of compounds. He pissed away two close friendships of 30 years over that deal too, when they tried to convince him to switch so he could keep hunting with them as they have for decades in that place. (I wasn't involved..). They were his best hunting buddies, big game, small game, fishing vacations.

Some people have principles that are uncompromising, even for something so trivial. I suspect someone like Missouri Breaks would quit hunting if trad bows were outlawed. Lots of people like that.

From: Bou'bound
28-Oct-17
so it was a people issue not a bow issue............or maybe an issue of caring about stuff that people say that should not be a source of frustration in your life. at some point if you are comfortable with you, and the people you care about and care about you are comfortable with you, that is what matters,

if you are hanging with guys you think so little of that you expect they are dissing you behind your back the issue is not your choice of bow it is the choice os something far more important...............................

From: Jaquomo
28-Oct-17
Bou, I no longer hang out or hunt with them but we are still friends. The irony is that one of the worst offenders now has shoulder problems and quietly bought a compound.

Bringing this back around full-circle to Beendare's original post, this is simply my example of overt trad snobbery. It's a form of "ism". I only posted details because you questioned. I believe this sort of attitude is far more prevalent than many trad guys want to admit.

Does it matter in the grand scheme of life? Probably no more so than guys at work laughing and saying your wife is fat and your daughter is ugly and implying that you cheat at golf because you use graphite shafts.

It only truly matters when "trad" vs. "modern" leaks into the archery season discussions. When I had to conduct proficiency tests for the DOW for a special suburban bear hunt I'd proposed, with policy-makers and local residents looking on, there were a lot of grimaces and head shaking when some trad guys couldn't hit a foam bear target at 20 yards (or were hitting it in the ass and neck). At that level, it is definitely a problem.

From: air leak
28-Oct-17
Excuse my ignorance...what exactly is a trad bow? Longbow, recurve, or both?

Jaq, I respectfully disagree with you about your 'friends'. That is more than friendly ball breaking banter. If these guys value their bow more than your friendship..they weren't your friends.

You are handling that situation better than I would have. Those guys would have been off my friend list, and on my shit list.

Tip my Yankees hat to you.

From: ElkNut1
28-Oct-17
It's pretty sad that some feel that the type of equipment they hunt big game with is like a religion to them, why? I have no idea. I've hunted with both Trad gear & Compounds as well, I do not look at anyone with bad feelings nor have I had others condemn me for the gear I've chosen for a particular year. I've been to a 100 different 3D shoots & cannot recall ever hearing such talk or any issues for that matter! I hope I never do either! We're all hunters despite choice of equipment, all bow types have their challenges, heck sometimes we are our own worst enemy! No matter ones choice of equipment, at least you're hunting! (grin)

ElkNut/Paul

From: Jaquomo
28-Oct-17
As pointed out in the past, many fly fishermen are just as bad, maybe worse. Its getting bad between mountain bikers and e-bikers too. Human nature.

From: Bou'bound
28-Oct-17
We can never control the actions of others but we can always control our reactions

From: tradmt
28-Oct-17
Well Lou, I must say that's some crazy shit right there.

From: tradmt
28-Oct-17
And don't worry, I don't hate you for taking up the training wheels. :)

From: Jaquomo
28-Oct-17
I don't hate myself either! ;-)

Yep, and my reaction after pointing out some blatant hypocrisies in their own behavior, was to go outside and work on my back tension and pull-through surprise release with a modern bow. I'm having fun and have nothing to prove to anyone.

From: PECO
28-Oct-17
ebikes look like fun. It is bad between skiers and snowboarders also.

From: ElkNut1
28-Oct-17
Jaq, that pretty much says it all!

"I'm having fun and have nothing to prove to anyone."

ElkNut/Paul

From: Beendare
28-Oct-17
Well Jaq said it better than I could...and some good examples. Its that holier than thou attitude and we see it in many things, "My way is THE ONLY way"

I get the there is a lot of pride in the 'Trad" community...and there should be by the guys that can shoot stick bows well, its an admirable skill. It appears by the thread on Leatherwall [since deceased- grin] that the good stick bow shooters feel the same distain as everyone else does about that small segment of holier than thou trad guys.

My point in all this is to show that small segment how bad they look. Its OK to fling arrows for fun, great.......but when you have to trash other disciplines to make yourself feel better about yourself you need to look in the mirror.

From: kellyharris
28-Oct-17
Same rhetoric with die hard Harley riders vs. non Harley riders!

Same rhetoric as Ford owners vs Chevy owners.

From: bb
28-Oct-17
I can't understand the rhetoric, It doesn't make any sense to me. As far as Ford and Chevy...I own both and I hate them both equally.

From: TD
28-Oct-17
It may be a small segment. But they are vocal. And ugly.

I remember way back when Pat "went to the dark side" as so many put it, and took up compounds. Some of the comments were just in fun. A good many were spiteful, mean and ugly. Some acted personally betrayed. And those were just the comments we got to see.... not the private ones. It went on for years..... and likely still pops up now and then.

It is good that our Bowsite King has a thick skin. He needs one just to put on our Bloodtrail Challenges....... =D

From: tradmt
28-Oct-17
Oh don't even get started on the Bloodtrail Challenge!

From: Rayzor
30-Oct-17
I know a guy that has a pile of trad bows and he says he's never had the urge to try a compound. He learned with a recurve and thats what he prefers. He never gives me or anyone else trouble about compounds. Crossbows are another story though. I can tell he hates them. I personnally could care less what you choose to hunt with. Your choice on weapons as far as I'm concerned. Only thing I say is hunt like you have some since so your actions don't ad fuel the Anti's fire.

From: Tajue17
31-Oct-17
I'm pretty hardcore traditional and I don't like that comment either I have a couple compounds and I have many friends who shoot them,,,,, but I posted in that thread in stickbow and said a few things.. I think they talk like that for acceptance like the little dog barking next to the big dog because every successful stick bow hunter or even very accurate shots I knew never talked about folks who use different equipment in my experience it was almost always the dude who couldn't shoot.

From: Bake
31-Oct-17
It's everywhere. Go over to Accuratereloading sometime and read the old threads where the controlled round feed guys would bash on the push feeders

I remember some forum I visited years ago about predator hunting, and the "old guard" hated the e-callers.

Karamojo Bell wrote about big bore guys disdaining his use of smaller bores for elephant (and that was around 1900). And he himself had some disdain for those using the big bores. . .

From: Tajue17
31-Oct-17
and to ad to what Bake just said in the stickbow world the primitive guys talk down on the modern laminated bows crowd, I know some primitive guys that really feel any success with a laminated stickbow of any kind is cheating and has no honor and some of those guys are hardcore and will only use what they made with their own hands, when I mention mechanical B head smoke starts coming out their ears.

From: PECO
31-Oct-17
Do these primitive gods buy and use any modern tools or materials in making their bow, string, arrows etc?

From: Ollie
31-Oct-17
The Leatherwall is not very reflective of the average hardcore traditional bowhunter IMO. Other trad websites do not permit this type of bad behavior...they will be banned rather quickly. Many die-hard trad supporters no longer visit the Leatherwall because they are tired of poor behavior and guys that have never killed nothing passing themselves off as online experts on any and every topic. Many of us traditional guys that participate on the Leatherwall are just as fed up with these flamers and you guys are.

From: DeerSpotter
31-Oct-17
I think it's all a waste of time, bringing down others to raise yourself up never ends up good

DS

From: Irishman
31-Oct-17
Compound bow, longbow, recurve bow, crossbow, rifle, what does it matter? To me it's more important how you go about the hunt. On Sunday one of my son's used a rifle to kill a mountain goat on a hunt that was a real adventure, high in the mountains. To others using a longbow from a treestand to harvest a deer that has been feeding in their uncles apple orchard or their food plot is a real hunt. I use a compound bow to hunt elk and bears, I usually use a rifle to hunt deer. Some of the rifle hunting was a lot more challenging than some of the bowhunting.

From: Quailhunter
06-Nov-17
Like I said earlier, I caught the trad bug about 10 years ago. Subscribed to a couple of magazines and had some bows made. Just kind of lost interest. Found it easy to get caught up in looking down at modern tech. Didn’t like thinking that way. Realized I just like hunting period.

Always found it interesting when I’d read critical comments or articles about people buying gadgets and how people spent money to make hunting easier... Author would be shooting a 1000 dollar recurve.

From: tradmt
07-Nov-17
I suppose you use a shotgun ( crutch ) for quail ?!! :)

From: TGbow
07-Nov-17
I dont care what other people shoot. I think it's good for folks to enjoy the outdoors whatever their weapon of choice. I've shot recurves and longbows for 42 years but I dont look down on other people's choice of weapons. This day and age we better all stick together or we'l all be defeated by the anti hunter crowd.

07-Nov-17
You can have a 1000 dollar plus stickbow that has nothing to do with enhanced performance. Exotic woods and hand or semi hand craftsmanship are easily worth 1000 dollars. Especially if the bow is a work of art and shaped specifically to your style.

From: Quailhunter
07-Nov-17
I agree Missouri. But many people get just as caught up in trad archery nick nacks and specialty custom stuff as others do with their modern gear. That’s the point I was trying to make.

Definitely on the quail.... sometimes I even use #8s!

From: TGbow
07-Nov-17
Quailhunter, you're right. After the $400 $500 mark you're paying for cosmetics. I have a $150 recurve that shoots better than some high dollar bows I've had.

07-Nov-17
To me I never had a problem with bows, any kind,,, I think the coming of age of compounds, was really something, I marvel at them, and they are a lot of fun to shoot,,,, since crossbows had been around since the 11th century , for the most part, I never had a problem with them, they still shoot one arrow,,,,,

I prefer the long bow, I guess I am a romantic,,,, I am very good with it, but my distance is restricted, which I accept,,,,,,,,

all hunters should stand together, plenty of room in the woods for everyone,,,,,

hunt fair chase

From: Salagi
07-Nov-17
It's kind of funny looking back through this thread how many are just as snotty in their opinion of stickbow shooters as they accuse the stickbow people of being of the training wheel folks. ;)

From: DL
08-Nov-17
It reminds me of the attitude of some fly fisherman towards other fisherman. Pat McManus an outdoor writer and humorist for outdoor life commented that fly fishing is not about catching more fish because if it was they would use worms. Same might be said for stickbow shooters.

From: TGbow
08-Nov-17
Remember, you cant throw everybody in the same bucket.

There are archers like me and others that just see it as archery, whatever the weapon of choice.

You got snobs on all sides.

From: TonyL
08-Nov-17
i currently shoot a compoundand my fiancé shoots a crossbow. i’ve killed many deer with my bear super kodiak and I took a nice little spike buck with an Osage self bow I made with my own 2 hands. as far as I’m concerned, we’re all hunters and we all have the same goal, humanely take game to feed our families and enjoy our natural resources. whatever you want to use to achieve that goal is fine by me. if it’s legal and you’re proficient, have at it. no need to take sides.

From: tradmt
08-Nov-17
I don't believe that being a hunter or not is in question, just whether one should refer to their old compound as a trainer or not.

From: TrapperKayak
08-Nov-17
Drove my green Croc Dundee Outback all over the Cascades Nat Forest roads for over 100k miles, too three bulls out in it. Head on roof rack, got some interesting looks driving through White Salmon. That think went anywhere and quite comfortably. It got my Indian Heaven bull elk out with ease and room to spare. Gotta wonder what kind of swollen nut sack attitude could argue with that?

08-Nov-17
I think many on this board have made the argument that new kids start and train with a compound, and maybe go to stickbow later. Now of course the crossbow has largely replaced the compound in many states. Maybe that is how the training thing started.

From: TrapperKayak
08-Nov-17
DL, fly fisherman do use worms and catch more fish, esp. in the Bighorn, on the San Juan worm. Bottom line, I use what I want, have few friends, but those I have don't care what I use because they are TRUE. I, and they, use l whatever makes them happy. If what someone else uses causes angst with people, they are not happy people, and I dont need that kind of 'friend'. I could be a hermit actually. Tradsnobbery...and those that practice it, can go pound salt. I use trad gear because I like it better.

From: Bentshaft
09-Nov-17
Most stick shooters have no business shooting at game, my guesstimate is about 97% of them. Their hunting accuracy is just terrible. Ive seen them in hunting camps here in Canada, heard it from my outfiter friends, guides, even some good traditional shots I know were in agreement with this. Also they are the first ones to grab a rifle when their "traditional ways" don't work out. In my experience they aren't as serious about hunting as compound bowhunters are, with some exceptions of course.

From: GF
09-Nov-17
In a way it’s a shame that this thread has such legs, but it got me to thinking....

I started out with a compound; mostly because I had a friend who needed $150 more than he needed a bow, and I wanted a bow more than I needed the $150..

But about 1990 I got a recurve, and I’ve shot “traditional” ever since, pretty much.

Funny thing: as mentioned earlier in this thread, I did acquire a compound at one point, thinking I could practice enough to be hunt-ready, even with two little boys, a wife, and a 500-mile-a-week commute. And I could; just so long as I restricted myself to shots close enough that I was certain that my first pin was the right one. So in reality, I had a shorter effective range with the compound than I did with a recurve.

But a funny thing happened: as long as I knew what the range was, MAN, could I shoot! Got to where I thought of a 4” group at 40 yards as pretty sloppy shooting. And then one day it dawned on me that I was unhappy with 4”@40 with the wheels, and - with a recurve - I had talked myself into being satisfied with groups that were twice the spread at half the distance.

What a bunch o’ CRAP!!!

So I don’t know about “training wheels“, but they sure did teach me that I should expect a whole lot more of myself. Besides… 25 years ago I was shooting a whole lot better than 8 inches at 20 yards, and it really kind of ticked me off.

So I rebuilt my shot process, started paying attention to what I was doing, and while I can only stretch it to about 18 yards behind the house, any group larger than about 4 inches once again strikes me as sloppy shooting. When I do miss more than two or 3 inches to either side, I always know what I did wrong now....

So I kind of wish that some of the High And Mighty “Trad” shooters would spend some Quality Time with those “trainers” and remind themselves (or enlighten themselves, if they’ve never been there) as to the level of accuracy which is ENTIRELY attainable with Archery tackle.

I’m not saying that everybody can be just as good without sighs as with, but JMO there are a lot of “purists” who really need to get their stuff together.

I’m not saying that I think Bowhunting shots on deer are a great idea beyond 30 yards - and on whitetails twenty is plenty - but treating “pie plate” accuracy at 17.4 yards as some kind of Gold Standard is just.... Stupid.

But hey, it’s the 21st Century - everybody gets a trophy just for showing up...

09-Nov-17
I love the long bow, its not for everyone, takes a lot of shooting, to be good with it,,,,, I am a big backer of compounds, they put bowhunting on the map,,,,, your a fool if you do not think you need to practice with one.....

Compound bows, got a lot of people into hunting, made all bow hunting organizations stronger,,,,,,,

I never was involved in trad organizations,,, somehow, they got off the hunting reservation, years ago, like some type of cult, they are just different in many ways...

shoot what you want, but be good with it,,,, take the time to learn well,,,,,,,

as far as comments, well let it roll off your back.....

From: SteveD
10-Nov-17
I agree doesn't bother me a bit, toughen up. I Consider the source . Ground hunter's comments make sense for the most part , especially about the practice if one wants to be successful when that right "moment" happens.

From: Jeff Durnell
10-Nov-17
GF, my last compound showed me I should expect more of myself too. That I expect to work harder to achieve deadly accuracy at less distance, and expect more personal investment, challenges and rewards for myself in archery and bowhunting. When it showed me it wasn't a viable means to what I expected of and for myself, but instead was leading me away from them, I sold it and started making my own gear. It's not a compound/trad thing in my case either because I don't use recurves or longbows made by others for many of the same reasons.

From: carcus
10-Nov-17
I've owned many trad bows over the years, never hunted big game with them, I'm in the 98% group that should never hunt with this type of weapon, it would be unethical! If I were in the 2% I would definitely use one and lose my training wheels

From: tradmt
10-Nov-17
"Two thirds or more of traditional shooters have no business shooting at game."

You sure know a lot of people.

From: GF
10-Nov-17
",,,,, I am a big backer of compounds, they put bowhunting on the map,,,,, "

Honestly, I'm one of those guys who'd rather that it had stayed off, for the most part, but if you say something like that, you risk sounding just like one of those Compound shooters who hates on Crossbows.. you know, whining about how easy they are and how it's going to open up the floodgates and ruin the season by making it overcrowded and all....

But you guys who think that you, personally, are among the "vast majority" of recurve/longbow/flatbow/selfy shooters who "have no business hunting with them"... You need to get out more and spend a little time with the string bow, because it's just not that hard unless you insist on going about it as ineffectively as possible which - unfortunately, maybe even tragically - a lot of self-proclaimed Traditionalists do, simply as a fashion statement. I don' think they're the majority, but they do tend to make themselves conspicuous...

But seriously... All that sights do is to make it easier to tell if your arrow is pointed at the target before you let it go... and you can do that with just an arrow; you just have to pay more attention. Or you can put sights on a recurve, as I understand many of the most serious shooters did, back in the '50s and '60s) and as the Olympians still do.

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