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Will Wyoming price increase improve draw
This year, prices will jump in Wyoming. I haven’t seen in preference points go up or not?
In your opinion, will this decrease applicants and improve draw odds?
I would think it would have to slow creep. Rise in price will slow demand but it may be so insignificant that it is hard to measure. It could also have a much larger effect.
I was talking about this with Mike a few days ago. My guess is that it won't have much affect at all.
Personally, I'm considering dropping out of the moose race in protest. With moose numbers going down as they are, I don't agree with such a substantial increase in tag price, especially when (1) we have to front the cost of the tag, (2) it takes them months to hold the draw and refund the money, and (3) and the preference point costs so damn much for it's absolute lack of worth for anyone with less than 10 points, but I seriously doubt it'll affect the deer, elk, or PH draws as the cost increases are the difference between a few cases of beer and most of the people putting in for the OIL type hunts are going to balk at the cost increase when the tag price is compared to what they'll be paying their guides.
PP will go up, too. Probably $75 for elk.
Personally, I’m only worried about elk. Been putting in for special and drawing but last year I think was the first year it wasn’t 100% with zero points. Anyone know off hand if pref points will increase? If they do, I think there will be fewer people that buy points. Wyoming has definitely been seeing lots of publicity. But general tags aren’t as easy to get as they use to be...
If the price of crack went up would a crack head quit? I'm hopeless ;)
Should be real easy to draw my cow moose tag now. :-)
My guess is that draw odds for the special tags will go up, draw odds for the regular tags will go down, and draw odds for cow/calf tags will go way down.
Here's the new price list...
The price increase for elk isnt all that much - less than $200 for general tag [w/ archery license]
The real question is... What's your breaking point?
No. Unfortunately. My question is what price increase would? $2000? $3000 licenses? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Plenty of people with money to hunt elk and it seems to me that trend is accelerating over the past 10 years. No data to back that up, except land-owner tag prices continuing to increase and the fact that you have to wait 2 years for a good guided hunt ($30k sheep hunts, $10k Elk or Mule deer-get in line and wait your turn!). Lot's of folks on the web will say they are quitting, but the tag application numbers don't seem to back that up from my very cursory review of states that have increased the price (maybe one of the "numbers" guys can affirm or dispute that). Now, I think in MT and some other states app numbers might have come down, but I don't think it's the app price, but the amount the state ends up keeping while weighing the perceived value of that state's elk herd.
I doubt those small increases will have any real world effect on elk hunters! Most of us are like Otcwill's comment!
In my opinion it will make no noticeable difference in the elk draw odds. Demand is so high that I don't think we'll notice if a few drop out.
I guess it's just lucky that States don't run these things completely like a business that understands supply and demand. Price for some units/tags would be so high that they would only get approximately 1 application per tag issued and only the very wealthy could afford them.
Moose and Sheep points (mandatory purchase) went up to $150, the rest stayed the same. They did raise the ceiling should the Commission choose to increase those point fees. If I remember correctly, total 2017 NR applications were up 20% over 2016 and if you tried to buy a leftover you probably noticed few available and most were sold with applications to spare.
I don't see odds geeting better no matter where you apply.
Tomorrows Comission meeting will have a presentation on alternative Elk license allocations. After the live feed it will be available on youtube.
Channel link; https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZWVayna6kSX4Q7eQyMvglA/videos
One thing is for sure....the state won't sell one less tag than they want to sell. They've done the research.
Alternative elk license allocations? What exactly does that mean?
"Alternative elk license allocations?"
Those are 'Rainbow Elk'
Washington State's sheep/moose/goat apps are around $210 non-refundable, I dropped out a few years ago after applying for a while because I just couldn't support that. I think it's highway robbery when most people will go their entire lives without drawing. I forgot about the moose PP increase - that's the main reason I'm dropping out. The PP is nothing of value. If you have 5 PPs for moose right now, your odds of getting into the PP draw for moose within the next 20 years is nil so you're paying $150 bucks per year to apply for dismal random draw odds and borrowing Wyoming 2 grand for 3 months. It's a crock.
The elk increase, on the other hand, still has value. Right now, an elk tag in WY costs about the same as it does in CO and CO's bull age strata is horrible. Personally, I'd pay $1200 for an elk tag in Wyoming. But I wouldn't pay $1800. Somewhere in there, I'd drop out.
And another thing, I don't know if they want us to buy these wolf tags or not while we're hunting ungulates, but there's no way I'm paying $185 for a tag to make an unlikely incidental kill. If Wyoming wants hunters to kill wolves instead of govt trappers, they need to take a lesson from MT and ID and charge $30-$50 for a wolf tag.
I'll add my Son drew a tag last year with 11 points, he still added the Special to insure he drew, if it had been a couple hundred dollars more he still wouldn't have blinked an eye! It's only money, you can't take it with you! (grin) (Those are my Son's words) Grin!
Drew a WY Shiras moose years ago when the price doubled (1992?). Always thought it took a few out of the drawing. Good luck to everybody.
You sure can’t take it with you but I surely don’t want to spend, spend, spend. Investing money now, means more later. There is surely a breaking point for many people. I love my spot in Wyoming and hope to continue hunting it every year. But Idaho or Montana are going to start looking like attractive options.
Well, looks like you have an answer to your original thought! You mention a breaking point for yourself! (grin) It's a bummer that many things in life such as cars, homes & life itself definitely costs more these days with little end in sight! Hunting is right up there too, it's definitely more expensive than it was even 10 years ago. -- There's no doubt it will weed some out not only in WY but most western states. Hang in there bud & good luck!
45:00 into the meeting; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mDE53bJP8
1:31 gets interesting
The price increase won't impact my attempts to draw. I don't expect the chances to be any better than they've been the past few years. Most states, including WY wait too long to raise prices so when they do they seem like quite a jump (like 20% next year for NR Antelope). The archery permit doubling seems a little harsh but still, the cost for this NR is still in the travel and time.
Re: non-resident elk Being a non-resident I have no input on Wyoming tag prices but preference point prices should be less for applicants who buy a second choice tag and come to Wyoming to hunt every year in spite of not drawing their first choice. Those who stay at home only buying points should pay a premium for that option. Those of us who buy a second choice tag (usually a cow) provide money for the wildlife department and the state economy in general. Those who only buy a preference point provide neither.
I buy a 1st choice tag every year, mine should be free.
When MT raised their prices a few years ago it had an effect, first year or two anyway they didn't sell all their elk tags on the first go round.... for the first time in years they had surplus tags. Essentially turned OTC. So the WY increase may have some immediate effect/impact.
Now the shock has worn off in MT it's the "new normal". Things are going back to how it was years earlier. Even if there is any effect in WY it will likely be short lived.
EDIT: Apparently MT had leftover tags this year as well.
I was thinking something along the lines of TD's post above. I've stated this on other threads, but I dropped out of moose and will probably not buy points for elk. Odds are I will apply with a shot at a random tag some years. There has been a ton of Bowsite publicity for WY, so some or all of us can share the blame.
I sure hope so, I've been playing the game since the freaking '90s...
FYI if your points are not updated yet, they will be around 11/20 or so. I anticipate the regular draw odds will go down...and I'll not draw yet again. Been a point behind where I want a tag for 5 years. Its just stupid at this point.
$580 increase in non-resident moose tag???? I'm at 15 pp and I sure hope I draw soon. This state is draining me of my cash. Sure wish Wisconsin would increase the non-resident fees across the board.
Unfortunately it won't for me. I want to hunt elk every year so I play the game and pay the price.
I will make cut backs as needed.
Yep will increase your odds for elk. First year in about 12 years I didn't buy elk point. After I burn my deer points next year, I may not start those again either as I have good hunting opportunities to hunt in my home state as well. That damn imaginary line is just not worth crossing any more!
The odds will definitely improve, but it is still very likely Wyoming will sell the NR quota. It It is important to recognize that posters on this site are not your "average" hunter, overall. We are obviously more passionate than many who would never even participate in this type of discussion. It will definitely effect some demographics greater. How many NR can but 2 or 3 of there teenagers in to accompany dad on an out of state hunt at the increased prices? It has always been expensive, but there re tipping points for everyone. In general terms, the less affluent, as well as the younger crowd (which are also, typically, less affluent, or established in their careers) will have a harder time coming up with the additional coin. Most of us, either are a bit older or possibly a bit better off, and probably won't be effected as much. But undoubtedly this will cause some to drop out.
Whether it is enough of an increase to see the same effects as Idaho and MT when they instituted large cost increases (and both had left over tags for several years) remains to be seen, but I do suspect demand will stay high enough in WY to still sell all the available quota. Bill
Most people who hunt elk out of state don't have 3 teenage hunting children. The price increase for elk is two tanks of gas for the average truck or five 30 packs of Coors Lite. That's like 1 week's worth of beer.
The only thing I would be interested in are antelope and grey wolf. USFW gets pissed if you kill a mexican grey wolf here and I can spend a lot less to hunt here in NM for elk. Tag soup taste a lot better when it is under $100. :-)
Life goes on so no biggy for me---------->
With so many guys using Application Services now a days, it only cost more if ya draw sooooo
Good luck, Robb
"...five 30 packs of Coors Lite. That's like 1 week's worth of beer. "
You need to keep in mind that it's not only the price increase if you draw but also the increase in price to apply for pref pts each year. It's getting mighty expensive for the "average Joe Hunter" to afford applying in 1 to multiple states....especially as noted above if his family is also applying for tags. Add up how much you are paying in multiple states and multiply that by 10-15 years of applying and that is a heck of a lot more than just a tank of gas and a case of beer!
I'm also sure this likely won't be the last price increase. Who knows how much pref pts and tags will cost 10 to 15 years from now! There are a heck of a lot of cheap trips I can do for the cost of tags and application fees! I'm slowly but surely getting out of the application fiasco! If you have money it's no problem but it's a real bummer for those on a tight budget! The game and fish/wildlife departments need to ask themselves where the heck our future is heading?
Agree Jim. If the real annual cost to apply is not sinking in with NR's, they should do the math and add it up. The total non-refundable fees to apply for all the various WY species is now up to 525.00 per year, per person. For those NR's applying multiple members of their family, that could be a rather large chunk of change. And that's the cost every year, year-after-year, even if you don't draw a license of any kind. WY is certainly now the most expensive state in the west to apply in, by a large margin.
More painful yet, when you really think it through, is that a lot of that money is not going into wildlife programs. Much of it ends up with the Credit Card banks. A big chunk of those fees pay the massive Merchant Account bill incurred due to WY requiring the full license fees up front.
If you're gonna play, you gotta pay. But more and more, my thoughts are turning to what I could do with all those app fees in the 15 different states we apply in. When you add it up, it would easily buy a real nice hunt somewhere every year.
Stick, That is exactly what I was thinking... I won't apply in Wy again, It's not worth it. I have great hunting here in AZ, and I will just save my pennies and go to Canada every 3-4 years for a moose or elk hunt if I can't get drawn here.
$120 for Antelope/Deer/Elk points is pretty reasonable. It costs me $56 for those points as a resident here in OR and the hunting sucks compared to WY. I would think anybody buying Sheep and Moose points has done the math to see how long it'll take to get to the top of the pile. That doesn't seem to be the case when looking at the number of people with single digit points.
In respect to elk since it's all I pay attention to.... it comes down to what guys with only 1 point will do. If you have 2 points you apply for a regular license. That price isn't bad so nobody will bow out of that especially with the odds which are 100%. So what will guys with a single point do? Well some of them may choose to hunt elsewhere or wait a year until they have the other point to give the regular draw a crack.... but I don't think the number of hunters who do that will be greater than or less than the increase in applicants which is on the rise. So in my opinion the odds won't change. Then there's the OTC Will factor! Haha. Take my money just give me my fix! I'd be in that group for sure.
Quote: "That doesn't seem to be the case when looking at the number of people with single digit points"
Bob I believe some of that volume is a result of the for-pay application services. Some of these charge $50.00 per state to handle the applications for the hundreds of applicants who don't want to bother with digging into all the details themselves. Being too frank about the hopelessness would discourage participation. After all, they're conducting a full time enterprise that relies on people to "apply, apply, apply".
I guess a lot depends upon your particular budget and how much you are willing to spend/year to apply. Hunting is definitely heading towards a wealthy man's sport!
Obviously if you don't apply for the best units in several different states you aren't tossing $ to the wind like hunters that apply for the top trophy units in multiple states. Wyo may find that they loose hunters over time that aren't willing to spend all the cash on application plus increasing tag fees. It's possible to hunt OTC elk in Colo every year! If you add applying for family members to the mix this adds up in a hurry...especially if you add application/pref pt fees to the ever rising cost of nonres tags. The truth to the matter is, it's getting mighty expensive to apply for nonres tags. If you do the math and add up all the charges plus the license fees over a 10 year period...it's possible to go on a lot of exciting trips for the same cost! If you are lucky enough to live in a state it's great but nonres are somewhat screwed!
If you have the means the tag fees are a drop in the bucket but to "Average Joe Hunter" it is becoming ridiculous! The wealthy can bi-pass outrageous draw odds for premium tags by purchasing governor's tags, highest bid auction tags, etc. As mentioned above, hunting is definitely heading towards a wealthy man's sport! I wonder if some states ought to re-think their application and tag fee process and what it may do in the long run to young hunters and the future of hunting?
Just a question here: Are there a lot of people who are applying for ALL species, or are most of you collecting elk, deer, and/or pronghorn points?
Elk, deer, pronghorn for me
I just retired May 31st, of this year so I'm on a fixed income, but ...............
I'm looking at it from the perspective that I turned 62 today and have multiple medical issues (degenerative discs in my back, shoulder surgery in 3 weeks, football knees, etc,,) that I know will end my "mountain" hunting in the near future - so I'm going to keep putting in until I get to that point of "no, I just can't physically climb that mountain or carry a 60 pound pack, any longer" - then and only then will I quit the "pay to play".
I just take on a few more side jobs to put money into my hunting fund.
My wife and I both hunt. I apply for all species. My wife skips sheep and goat, but applies for everything else. My son is grown, loves to hunt, but as he is starting his career he really can't afford NR tags. So I apply for him too (all species). The fact is I can afford the fees, so will continue to apply for all three of us, but it isn't cheap. I do realize I am more fortunate than most, and when I was younger there is no way I could have paid these kinds of rates, and my father was a very casual hunter so there wasn't much chance of him fronting the cost back then. I expect many people are in this category now. Those of us on this site are more hardcore, but even then this is not a site full of wealthy guys. It will effect the odds, but the tags will still get sold. Bill
Tentative plans ... Drop out of moose and sheep. At this point I am throwing good money after bad. Draw an elk tag this year an burn my points. Do the same with my lope and deer points in the next three to four years.
"Elk hunting is becoming a wealthy man's sport"
I don't see it that way. I think it's all about priorities. Anyone who REALLY wants to can come up with the money to buy a license once a year. Most of the other costs don't change. Gas has gone down.
Really? You obviously don't live in California, they just increased taxes on gas. Tax the necessities, not the luxuries.. interesting.
Just lope, deer, and elk for me too. I'm dropping out of the moose race.
I never got into the Sheep or Moose racket because as Ike pointed out, for younger guys you will NEVER see the investment come to fruition. I put in for Elk/Deer/Antelope because you can still cash those in for better than OTC quality hunts every 5-6 years (and I won't be hunting WY any more frequently than that anyway living in Alaska).
My plan is to cash out the Deer and Elk points in 2019 (currently at 7 I think?) then antelope again the year after that. I'll probably only continue with deer and antelope beyond that point.
Here is a link to the Commission meeting where the alternative allocations were presented. Starts at about minute 45:00.
An apparent point of confusion for the Commission is the 7,250 tags being called a "cap". That 7,250 is not a "cap" but a fixed number of NR, full price Elk tags that have to be fully allocated.
The Game dept sets a quota of full price Elk tags, then splits off 16% for NR. After the draw, the dept goes thru a quota balance procedure, adding up the number of licenses drawn by NR. So far, NR have drawn less than the 16%, and the 16% has always been less then the legislated 7,250 so, they take the remaining tags (remaining from the 16% and the difference between 16% and 7,250) and convert those to special gen tags and allocate those. Those are the tags that get allocated after the draw reports are run. At that, NR are always issued 7,250 full price Elk tags. Outfitters would like to increase that hard number to 9,000.
I listened up until the part where the guide from swift creek spoke. I’ll have to listen to the rest later.
I like the region option. Some regions would probably go unsubscribed. Although some regions might have worse odds than they are now?
The commission keeps talking about putting it to the public, and by public, they only refer to residents. They should be seeking comment from non-residents... you know, the ones paying for these tags? I’m not sure how going from the current system to a regional quota would impact residents? The 7250 quota would go away and the LE quota of 16% would likely stay the same unless like they said, it was an undersubscribed area.
I disagree with the reasoning the guide displayed about forcing hunters into areas with bears and the potential conflict. By changing it to a regional thing, people are still going to hunt where they like to hunt. You’re not forcing them anywhere they wouldn’t go with the current system.
Lastly, I’m amazed at how little understanding the commission has of how the draw system works in that state...listening to the questions they ask the presenters, it’s like how do you not know these things being in your position???
"Lastly, I’m amazed at how little understanding the commission has of how the draw system works in that state...listening to the questions they ask the presenters, it’s like how do you not know these things being in your position??? "
I had typed my thoughts on that as well but elected to delete them.
It’s called the Peter Principle
The Wyoming Game and Fish Commission has in the past and probably still is comprised of mostly ranchers trying to protect their own interests. They used to have their occupation posted on the WGFD web site. Years ago while I was President of Bowhunters of Wyoming I would attend their meetings and couldn't believe the # of them that didn't even hunt or fish on a regular basis. Kind of scary having them in charge. I know there is at least one bow hunter on the commission right now so that's good. I would bet most of you (non-residents) know our system way better than residents do as well.
My guess they will accept comments from non-residents on the issue. As far as outfitters wanting to increase the # to 9,000 that will probably be a pretty hard sell but who knows there is a member on the commission with ties to the outfitting community.
Hiw about a trade..... more licenses for the outfitters in exchange for non resident wilderness hunting privileges? Yeah I didn't think so! Lol