Mathews Inc.
Antler Point Restrictions and CWD
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
Missouribreaks 26-Nov-17
Backpack Hunter 26-Nov-17
Pyrannah 26-Nov-17
ground hunter 26-Nov-17
Franklin 27-Nov-17
Bowriter 27-Nov-17
walking buffalo 27-Nov-17
Pyrannah 27-Nov-17
lewis 27-Nov-17
Bowriter 27-Nov-17
walking buffalo 27-Nov-17
JL 27-Nov-17
Lost Arra 27-Nov-17
Pyrannah 27-Nov-17
cnelk 27-Nov-17
Pyrannah 27-Nov-17
MichaelArnette 27-Nov-17
Glunker 27-Nov-17
Pyrannah 27-Nov-17
JL 27-Nov-17
walking buffalo 27-Nov-17
Missouribreaks 28-Nov-17
Glunker 28-Nov-17
Missouribreaks 28-Nov-17
Pyrannah 28-Nov-17
txhunter58 28-Nov-17
txhunter58 28-Nov-17
12yards 29-Nov-17
JL 29-Nov-17
txhunter58 29-Nov-17
Pyrannah 29-Nov-17
txhunter58 29-Nov-17
Pyrannah 29-Nov-17
Lost Arra 29-Nov-17
Pyrannah 29-Nov-17
Bowriter 29-Nov-17
txhunter58 29-Nov-17
JL 29-Nov-17
txhunter58 30-Nov-17
Missouribreaks 30-Nov-17
walking buffalo 30-Nov-17
1boonr 03-Dec-17
txhunter58 03-Dec-17
David A. 03-Dec-17
Pyrannah 03-Dec-17
jsgold 03-Dec-17
Pyrannah 03-Dec-17
jsgold 03-Dec-17
David A. 03-Dec-17
26-Nov-17

Missouribreaks's Link

26-Nov-17
I just read that article a little earlier. Not sure I agree with the idea that shooting younger deer is the solution, nor have I heard anything about scientists claiming transfers to humans is inevitable. Having said that I am not at the forefront of anything related to CWD testing.

From: Pyrannah
26-Nov-17
Some testing in Canada found that it is transferable to monkeys at least..

Who knows

26-Nov-17
last study, they just said kill the older deer,,,, now the younger deer,,,, next week something else....

This is how dumb MI is.... They want to keep it out of UP,,,, any deer coming out of Wisconsin, must be boned out,,,, I agree,,, however, they can shoot all them deer in the lower, in a CWD area, but they can bring them across the bridge whole...

I pointed this out, and they said, "oh we never thought about that" duh !!!!!!!!

11

From: Franklin
27-Nov-17
Michigan has some crazy regs...you cannot bring a deer back home. No head of a deer...if it has antlers the skull cap must be clean etc. The taxidermist are upset because a lot of hunters are leaving their deer in the state they killed it. It`s too much of a hassle complying with the regs. They are now doing research tying CWD Venison and Alzheimer's and Dementia.

From: Bowriter
27-Nov-17
Lets see...I don't think it was on this site. Not sure where I saw it but there was a grand and glorious discussion about all the havoc CWD was going to wreak upon deer herds and the decimation it was going to cause. Some thought, it might kill almost as many deer as lightning strikes. So...here are some facts for you. In one section of central WY, 40% of the deer tested, were positive for CWD. Now, what is misleading about that? We don't know how many were tested or where they came from. (That factoid came straight out of my UW alumni magazine.) If they all came off the deer farm, that is not the same as a wild testing.

How about this one. CWD affects only a fraction as many deer as EHD and a miniscule portion of the deer killed on highways.

Here is another. There is no even anectdotal evidence CWD can jump a specie barrier. And believe me, there has been a whole lotta testing going on. Cattle, sheep, goats turkeys and probably some primates...nope-they don't get it. CWD be only in them cervidae things.

Now...my theory. I firmly believe CWD has been present in cervids since there have been cervids. What we didn't have was a test for it until the brilliant folks, (like Woods Walker and me,), at UW found it in the elk that we stole from CSU. And those elk came off a mountain and were live-trapped from the wild. More of my somewhat confrugulated thinking: (1)-I don't eat meat from any animal that appears sick-pretty much common sense. (2)-I don't believe you can prevent a deer with CWD from crossing a state line unless you have a high-fence around the state. (3)-Not hard to comply with the laws, so why not just do it, keep the biologists and doomsayers happy. (4)-Major causes of spread will eventually be determined as follows: Captive herds or penned deer. Interstate transport and trading of live animals. Baiting. Supplemental feeding. Acid rain. I also promote-anyone, who sees any deer that is OBVIOUSLY sick, should be allowed to kill it AT ANY TIME, no tag or license required. However, they must immediately report it and do not get to keep any part of the deer. Any deer crazy enough to get close enough to me to be killed, must have something wrong with it. Most of the deer I kill, have tested positive for viewrectitis. The nerves of the eyes have been short circuited through the rectal nerves, giving them a crappy view of life. And finally: Since CWD is spread through bodily fluids, we must put an immediate and complete end to the rut and stop all human consumption of all deer urine and most feces. I'm not sure about snot. I thought it was just mucus but it'snot. (As you can see, I am greatly concerned.) Mad Cow, Scapies, Whirling Disease, Rodentia Doldrumus and finally, Hysterical Bedlam, all must be banned.

27-Nov-17
"Here is another. There is no even anectdotal evidence CWD can jump a specie barrier. And believe me, there has been a whole lotta testing going on. Cattle, sheep, goats turkeys and probably some primates...nope-they don't get it. CWD be only in them cervidae things. Now...my theory...."

Stuck in a rut? This denial shows your lack of education on the matter.

This makes me seriously question Anything you write.

From a CIFA (Canadian Food Inspection Agency) May 2017 news release. " A limited number of experimental studies have demonstrated that non-human primates, specifically squirrel monkeys, are susceptible to CWD prions. An ongoing research study has now shown that CWD can also be transmitted to macaques, which are genetically closer to humans.

And these monkeys were only exposed to CWD through being fed infected meat. Proof that CWD infected meat can infect other animals.

There are now numerous examples of landscapes where CWD has been tested for and been negative for decades until original positive findings usually associated with known connections to game farm importations and subsequent spread to wild herds.. Yet it as always in these cervids?

Being an ostrich does not make you a good writer, it makes people realize you're opinions are not worth reading.

From: Pyrannah
27-Nov-17
Agree with buff

From: lewis
27-Nov-17
Damn glad awe don't have squirrel monkeys in Tn.Just saying Lewis

From: Bowriter
27-Nov-17
Parts of that are accurate. Parts are not. Note this direct quote, " A limited number of experimental studies have demonstrated that non-human primates, specifically squirrel monkeys, are susceptible to CWD prions. " As for the landscape, that is accurate, as is the spread to wild herds from penned. I stand by my statement. Pay attention to the words.."Limited number...experimental and susceptible." It does not say, the animals contracted the disease nor does it say under what conditions the experiments were conducted. Monkeys have long been known carriers of a similar, prion borne disease. I have seen and see, not one shred of conclusive evidence that anything other than a cervidae has tested positive for CWD. You are I are susceptible, dogs are susceptible. But I also know of no case in either specie that has tested positive for CWD.

27-Nov-17
More stubbornness and word play to defend a false position....

Macaques contracted CWD just by eating infected deer meat. This is not speculation.

I don't doubt that you have not seen a shred of conclusive evidence to the contrary. Being ignorant of the facts does not make for a successful argument.

From: JL
27-Nov-17

JL's Link
Great info at the link about Missouri's CWD problem and APR's impact on the spread from Jim Sweeney (who is also a member here) from the Concerned Sportsmen Of Michigan.

Here is another link about yearling buck dispersal and CWD. If none of these links work you can go to his website and see his data and info.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/8576fd96ebc339dfbb90a779bf1914f9?AccessKeyId=7CE5D6F24BC6A12CD131&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

From: Lost Arra
27-Nov-17
I hope there is research into a simpler testing procedure than removing and submitting the retropharyngeal lymph nodes for analysis. I talked to the Wyoming lab in Laramie and came away shaking my head. There are regs about where you can transport a head then you have to get it to the lab when they are open. There would be more testing if the procedure was a bit more streamlined.

From: Pyrannah
27-Nov-17
Yes testing needs to be easier.. they have free testing if killed in a known cwd area but it is $80 if outside the zone.

My wife doesn’t want to eat venison anymore and she doesn’t want my kids eating it either..

From: cnelk
27-Nov-17
For those that are scared of the CWD, do you let your kids play contact sports.. i.e. football? Arent you terrified of CTE?

How do you manage driving each day? The chances of a car wreck are FAR greater than getting CWD

From: Pyrannah
27-Nov-17
Cnelk, nope no football players here...

Yes there are tons of risks in life, especially driving, but the point is, we don’t know what the cwd risks are yet and the evidence and research is relatively new.. maybe Bowriter is right, but the latest research doesn’t necessarily support those claims...

Time will tell, but I would rather be a little safer, especially when it comes to my kids futures.. besides wife is ruling that situation more than myself, I’ll continue to hunt because I love it, and I will just have my animals tested I guess..

I just don’t see how this can be ignored, though it seems to always take a back burner to other posts

27-Nov-17
get rid of deer farms where it all started imo

From: Glunker
27-Nov-17
The article couldn't have been written by anybody with a science background. If younger deer have a higher incidence of CWD then did the older deer get cured? Did the older deer get harvested because the were sick and disabled? No science involved. The wild card to this is if the prions are latent and will surface in humans decades later. As I am in my 60's I am off the hook but that is a long shot scenario. Am not sweating it.

From: Pyrannah
27-Nov-17
Yeah Michael I tend to agree but not sure there is enough evidence there yet.

What I don’t get is deer congregating is know to spread the disease. Items such as feeders, food plots, scents, and etcetera but they are such huge sellers year after year.. we didn’t always need this stuff to kill deer.. I don’t get it...

From: JL
27-Nov-17

JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo
Glunker, there is some science to it. One part of it comes via the DNA testing of positive animals. In Michigan the DNR is waiting on some DNA samples to come back on the latest 3 positive deer from the same county. I think one was a doe and the other two were yearling bucks. If there is a DNA connection between the doe and either one of the yearling bucks that was shot in different, nearby locations, that will suggest the doe and yearling were infected and the yearling dispersed into a new area. The link I provided above shows where Missouri had APR's and where CWD popped up. As more CWD cases were identified, those APR counties eliminated their APR regs. Attached is a 2017 map of Missouri showing where they have (had) APR's and where they eliminated APR's due to the spread of CWD. It's from the link I attached above.

27-Nov-17
As hunters and as people that love Wildlife, in particular cervids, we need to be proactive in dealing with CWD.

Sure, there is hope and a possibility that CWD will never be infectious to humans or that we will develop a cure to the disease, be it for animals and /or wildlife.

The concern we need to keep in mind is; What happens IF CWD is proven to be infectious to humans?

IF CWD becomes proven to infect humans, it is TOO LATE to do much other than scorched Earth policies. The CDC has discussed the complete extermination of ALL cervids in known CWD areas, with massive population reductions in non CWD areas. Will this actually happen, quite possibly. Following is one reason why.

CWD can be up-taken by plants, including crops such as wheat and corn. ALL cropland will be considered Red Zones for agricultural use, World markets will have complete embargoes on any produce from these areas. Speculators are already contemplating how to short this potential in the markets. The economic impacts would be unprecedented.

NO GOVERNMENT has been willing to do what is necessary to control the spread of CWD. Social licence is the issue. Self interests are lobbying hard to keep their livelihood viable despite the risks to others and to Wildlife. Game Farming associations have even studied the Scorched Earth policy. It would be in their financial interest if this DID happen. They would control the main access to CWD free deer....

This is much too important to ignore or to pass off as unproven. Once proven, it is TOO LATE to save our deer.

28-Nov-17
Some processing facilities will no longer process deer or other wild game. I see regulations coming, and suggestions to not consume any venison unless tested. Maybe not even then unless tests prove to be 100% accurate. Then comes litigation if the testing system fails. This is potentially very serious. Cervid urine and urine based lures may be banned. Former deer and elk farm lands condemned for resale and devalued substantially. Where will it all end, if it does?

From: Glunker
28-Nov-17
I am still waiting for an effective plan to deal with CWD. Not sure there is anything other than testing that is of any value. Wisconsin has been through this. Some meat processors no longer do venison. Other mix all the meat and you get somebody's untested venison. Trying to reduce the herd either by sharp shooters or unlimited tags was expensive, had a huge hunter backlash and really is a temporary bandaid. Until CWD crosses over to humans this is hand wringing. Wish there was a silver bullet solution so I just hunt on.

28-Nov-17
I will not feed any venison to my family, especially children, unless tested. That is a good middle ground until this can be sorted out. I will hunt for younger animals too.

From: Pyrannah
28-Nov-17
Missouri, What is the cost for you to get your animals tested?

From: txhunter58
28-Nov-17
" I have seen and see, not one shred of conclusive evidence that anything other than a cervidae has tested positive for CWD"

Absolutely a true statement! But you can't say the same thing in reverse. You can't say "there is not one shred of evidence that CWD came from scrapie in sheep" That is because there is a LOT of smoking gun evidence that it did. In fact, with the evidence I have seen, I absolutely believe that it did.

If your theory is correct, why does the biggest concentration seem to be spreading out from CSU historically. And current: https://www.cdc.gov/prions/cwd/occurrence.html

Without much imagination, you can see that it would naturally spread out over time from CSU and in a trailer from Deer taken from that area to other states. That is how it got to central Texas. Why are the only two places it has been found in Texas West Texas (came over from NM) and in captive deer pens (infected deer came in a trailer)? If this were natural, why is it not found in wild deer except in those places. And don't tell me it is already there, because there has been a boatload of testing done throughout Texas and those are the only positives.

To me the shoe is on the other foot. There is plenty of smoking gun evidence that this disease originated from a test pen at CSU. It is up to you to prove otherwise and I have seen no other "theories" that holds scientific water.

As to whether or not it will ever start infecting people, neither you or I know the answer to that. But if it did I can not imagine a more horrible disease out there. One that can never be eradicated.

Our only hope is that evolution will take care of this and develop a deer herd that is resistant through natural selection. The problem with that is that it takes so long to kill a deer, the prions just keep on spreading and piling up over the years. We might be better off if it killed quick like EHD. If nature is able to get rid of infected deer, it won't be in out lifetime.

BTW I suspect there are some people on this site with CWD positive meat in their freezer that need a way to dispose of the meat because they are not going to eat it. I am sure they would be glad for you to come pick it up and let you eat it.

From: txhunter58
28-Nov-17
Couple of years ago, it was being said: "it seems to be ONLY infecting 10-15% of the herd" . Now it is "only" 40%. Where will we be in another 10 years??

And we have places in Texas with a deer per 3 acres. No one knows how it will go when it gets into herds of that density.

As I say over and over : what we know scares me, but what we still don't know scares me even more. But what do I know anyway? I am just a lowly veterinarian from Texas in the county next to where it was found on the first deer farm here. So far my clinic has not sent in a positive, but it is only a matter of time.

From: 12yards
29-Nov-17
Nothing is going to stop CWD if it comes. So I am still all for APRs.

From: JL
29-Nov-17
Western New York had a small outbreak of CWD and they were successfully able to nip it in the bud.

From: txhunter58
29-Nov-17
"Western New York had a small outbreak of CWD and they were successfully able to nip it in the bud"

Uh, don't count on it. Where it was in pens at CSU, they removed the topsoil, put down lye, and placed the topsoil and kept deer out for several years. When they put deer back in the same pens, they still came down with CWD. Unless your soil has something truly unique that kills the prions, but that is highly doubtful. Once it is in a place, so far there is no way you can ever get rid of it. That is what is so devastating about this disease. With Scrapie in sheep, and Mad Cow in cattle, you kill all infected animals and the disease disappears. Not so with CWD

From: Pyrannah
29-Nov-17
How do deer get the disease through soil?

From: txhunter58
29-Nov-17
That hasn't totally been figured out yet, but the prions are released from infected animals into the environment and seem to be able to survive for years to infect other deer. Cooking your steak very well done doesn't even kill it.

From: Pyrannah
29-Nov-17
Yeah I have read all that information but it is crazy how they can absorb it back from the soil

I wonder if it grows in the plants that deer consume or something like that..

Scary stuff, I wish it wasn’t so easily brushed off as nothing

From: Lost Arra
29-Nov-17
The prions are an improperly folded protein, not a virus, not a bacteria, not a yeast, not a fungus. A protein is not something that can be "killed". It might be possible to denature it or inactivate it in a lab but good luck covering NE Colorado and SE Wyoming or Wisconsin or where ever. There are all sorts of rules about transporting nervous tissue but your hunting boots could be carrying prions back to your home state. Bottom line, no one knows but with recent mainstream media attention I'm betting there is going to be a bunch of hysterical reactionary measures taken that are totally ineffective and/or unnecessary.

From: Pyrannah
29-Nov-17
Woah, the boot thing is pretty wild

From: Bowriter
29-Nov-17
There is a similar disease in primates. It is spread by cannabalism. Lots of primates get it, not from eating deer meat, they are prone to it. Humans in Borneo, die from it. So, we must all stop eating human meat. Do you really think CWD s a new disease? How much faith do you place in a Canadian agency testing monkeys on an self-explained, limited basis? Where are their clinical trials? The prion borne spectrum is wide open to, and fraught with speculation and drama. You do what you feel is provident.

From: txhunter58
29-Nov-17
"You do what you feel is provident."

I will. The biggest push to "not worry" and "don't use scare tactics" is being pushed by big money form deer farms. According to them, we are all worried about nothing, and should allow unrestricted movement of deer regardless of CWD. Sorry, but to me that is not prudent!

From: JL
29-Nov-17

JL's embedded Photo
JL's embedded Photo

JL's Link
txhunter.....in NY, it was found in nearby wild deer too.

From: txhunter58
30-Nov-17
Thanks JL for bringing that to my attention. Very curious as that has not happened anywhere else that I know of. I am at a loss to explain it. Is that a low density deer population area of the state?

30-Nov-17

Missouribreaks's Link

30-Nov-17
"There is a similar disease in primates. It is spread by cannabalism. Lots of primates get it, not from eating deer meat, they are prone to it. Humans in Borneo, die from it. So, we must all stop eating human meat. Do you really think CWD s a new disease? How much faith do you place in a Canadian agency testing monkeys on an self-explained, limited basis? Where are their clinical trials? The prion borne spectrum is wide open to, and fraught with speculation and drama. You do what you feel is provident."

WTH? Stop eating people from Borneo?

How about you educate us on the history of BSE. Be sure to include the part where governments were promoting Mad Cow meat as safe to eat.

From: 1boonr
03-Dec-17
It was first identified in Colorado in the late 60s. You can hunt in that area today and still shoot deer that are not infected. It is not the end of deer unless these idiot biologists in states like Illinois can figure out a way to kill all the deer with sharpshooters. It is obviously not a pretty picture for any deer but sharpshooters aren’tstopping It from creeping south in Illinois. they made a law against mineral stations and feeding deer to keep it from spreading then they put out bait stations for sharpshooters. That’s a bunch of brilliant government workers right there.

From: txhunter58
03-Dec-17
"You can hunt in that area today and still shoot deer that are not infected. It is not the end of deer"

True, but we don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes. It is not a disease that spreads fast, it takes years, and the increases in endemic areas is not encouraging. Some penned deer have up to 70% infection rate. We may be headed there in wild deer someday as well

From Wisconsin:

CWD prevalence has also changed over time. Since 2002, CWD prevalence within our western monitoring area has shown an overall increasing trend in all sex and age classes. During the past 15 years, the trend in prevalence in adult males has risen from 8-10 percent to over 30 percent and in adult females from about 3-4 percent to nearly 15 percent. During that same time, the prevalence trend in yearling males has increased from about 2 percent to over 10 percent and in yearling females from roughly 2 percent to about 9 percent.

From: David A.
03-Dec-17
There are a lot of questions that should be answered ASAP such as can CWD cross the species barrier in our closest relatives, chimpanzees. It is also essential to know more about the occurrence in soil and plants including agricultural crops. The funding on this needs to dramatically increase to encourage more research to answer these and many more issues.

Is there a way hunters can help/contribute? Kinda' amazing if not.

From: Pyrannah
03-Dec-17
I think testing animals we kill can play a big part in it.. unfortunately it’s fairly expensive to have them tested in pa.

I probably will kill less than I have in the past but will get them tested from here out.

From: jsgold
03-Dec-17
At the moment, it's best not to put too much faith in a test result, as explained by the Wisconsin DNR when you get a test result back. They actually don't even tell you it tested "Negative," only that CWD prions were not detected.

There could still be prions present in the tested tissue at too low of a concentration or in other parts of the animal, such as the muscle tissue.

And let's not forget the extremely disturbing Canadian study, which didn't clarify what level of prions must be present in the meat to be a risk, but it did reveal that 3 of 5 MONKEYS FED ONLY ONE 7 OZ. STEAK PER MONTH FOR LESS THAN TWO YEARS DID MANAGE TO CONTRACT THIS ALWAYS-FATAL DISEASE! That is a much lower rate of venison consumption than that of most hunters I know.

For your info, here's the message that accompanies Wisconsin DNR test results:

CWD Not Detected

Tissue from the deer you provided the Wisconsin DNR for chronic wasting disease (CWD) testing has been examined for CWD prions. There were no CWD prions found and therefore no evidence that the deer was infected with CWD. However, the inability to find CWD prions in the tissue examined is NOT equivalent to pronouncing this deer absolutely free of CWD prions or stating that it is safe to consume. All laboratory tests for CWD only assess the presence or absence of a detectable amount of prions in the specific tissue examined at the time the tissue was collected. A recently infected animal may not test positive because prions have not yet reached a detectable level in the tissue that was tested. CWD testing is clearly of value for disease surveillance to learn where the disease exists, but it has limited value in the context of food safety testing.

From: Pyrannah
03-Dec-17
Geez

From: jsgold
03-Dec-17
If it ends up being determined that CWD does in fact cause prion disease in human brains--which mostly likely will be proven, if it hasn't already--I would be very surprised if it winds up being a very common human illness. For those unfortunate enough to contract it, though, it is no way to go.

I am not a fear-monger, and I have determined for myself that what I gain from chasing deer and elk with a bow outweighs the (probably) slight risk of contracting a CWD related illness, as long as common sense is used. Due to the unknowns, however, I definitely do not feel safe making that same decision for my kids.

And there is enough circumstantial evidence that it can pass from deer species to humans, and the incubation periods can be so incredibly long for brain wasting diseases-decades, in fact-that it is incredibly reckless for uninformed individuals to be making proclamations about CWD being around "forever" and posing no risk to humans.

If that were the case, the Department of Defense probably wouldn't have a $42.5 MILLION dollar program trying to protect the US food supply from the threat of prions entering the food supply from deer....either through contamination of meat processing plants, spreading it to cattle directly, or shedding prions into the environment and being taken up into crops such as corn and soybeans.

From: David A.
03-Dec-17
This could destroy deer hunting, so I would suggest F & G departments have an opt in contribution when we apply for licenses/tags. It needs be funded big time and not just by the Dept of Defense and a couple of universities. Research can answer many of the questions and we need facts asap, not speculations.

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