Carbon Express Arrows
The Science of Nothing
Equipment
Contributors to this thread:
APauls 01-Dec-17
Jack Harris 01-Dec-17
Beendare 01-Dec-17
Charlie Rehor 01-Dec-17
Scrappy 01-Dec-17
smarba 01-Dec-17
LKH 01-Dec-17
Surfbow 01-Dec-17
Pat Lefemine 01-Dec-17
Ambush 01-Dec-17
elk yinzer 01-Dec-17
ohiohunter 01-Dec-17
Grunt-N-Gobble 01-Dec-17
Scoot 01-Dec-17
woodguy65 01-Dec-17
Brotsky 01-Dec-17
M.Pauls 01-Dec-17
SaddleReaper 01-Dec-17
ohiohunter 01-Dec-17
cnelk 01-Dec-17
Franzen 01-Dec-17
t-roy 01-Dec-17
7mm08 01-Dec-17
APauls 01-Dec-17
Buffalo1 01-Dec-17
Bowboy 01-Dec-17
Scoot 01-Dec-17
drycreek 01-Dec-17
Ironbow 01-Dec-17
standswittaknife 02-Dec-17
Bowriter 02-Dec-17
4araquiver 02-Dec-17
AndyJ 02-Dec-17
Bowriter 02-Dec-17
Woods Walker 02-Dec-17
Vids 02-Dec-17
Bowriter 03-Dec-17
Thornton 03-Dec-17
JTV 03-Dec-17
CAS_HNTR 03-Dec-17
Shrewski 03-Dec-17
EmbryOklahoma 03-Dec-17
RTJ1980 03-Dec-17
Charlie Rehor 04-Dec-17
PECO 04-Dec-17
Ollie 04-Dec-17
APauls 04-Dec-17
ohiohunter 04-Dec-17
From: APauls
01-Dec-17
What do you think? One of the greatest marketing dupes ever?

I bought the Fanatic years ago, but only because of how nice a suit it is. I've hated the camo since day one. I think this winter I will spray paint mine. I hunt almost exclusively poplar forest and I swear this is the worst camo made for this. My brother and I were joking about it and he simply replied "science of nothing all right." LOL So funny. It's like they did all this research and came up with "this is how it should look." Then after that camo being out for a few years common sense hit and was like "OK we better add a lot of white to it." If the algorithm was so perfect after all the research why change it a couple years later with the Elevated II camo? If I was sitting in a heavy oak flat it might be OK, but then so would literally anything. Coupled with the fact that deer see blue hues 20x better than we do I am always astonished how my suit looks blue to me. The suit is just so technically awesome I keep it, plus the fact that I mortgaged the house for it back when it cost 30% of what it does today ;). Awesome gear, but I think I am finally going to man up and spray paint it over the winter. I think the whites in my suit have really faded over time and now I am just a black blob. In the thin poplar forests I am literally not moving and deer will be 40 yards away and pick me off. I am setting up even lower to try and get further from the skyline problem. Next sit I'll only be like 10 feet high. Man oh man if only Sitka had been able to put predator fall grey over top of their jackets...

From: Jack Harris
01-Dec-17
The only real science applied to hunting products is the science of "marketing" whether it be deer piss in a bottle, the latest camo, scent blocking suits, ozone generators, the latest BH, and the list goes on.

From: Beendare
01-Dec-17
You want validation that Sitkas original Elevated pattern was crap? They gave it to you when they changed it. [ and I agree with you for whatever thats worth- grin]

Now....do you want to talk about the Kuiu giraffe pattern?

01-Dec-17
My results are fantastic for whitetails. If I don’t move they don’t see me. I am full on board with it.

The key to cold weather hunting is being able to stay on stand and draw without being seen or heard. The layering system works great. Even if the Camo did not work the functionality is tops in the whitie world for me.

All Sitka, all the time!

From: Scrappy
01-Dec-17
I to have the original fanatic jacket and I didn't like the noise it made scraping up against a tree. So I started wearing this really thin three D leafing type jacket over it. Fixed the camo and noise.

From: smarba
01-Dec-17
I've not used E or E2. But I've used Open Country for many years and some SubAlpine this past fall, all for ground hunting. I've been extremely impressed with the reaction (or lack thereof) from animals. The patterns break up and blend into background like nothing else. Plus the technology of the fabrics (as you note) is amazing. Only praise for Sitka from me.

I should add that I'm not so sure spray paint is the way to go if you're looking to change the pattern. But there are fabric paints that might work for you.

From: LKH
01-Dec-17
I've always thought dark camp's were a joke. By the time you get 20 yards away all the cute little leaves, twigs, etc. just melt into a dark glob.

If I don't move, there is virtually no limit to what I can wear. I've had 15 muley does walk by myself and a client at 15-20 yards when he had a solid blaze orange coat and hat and neither of us had facepaint on. We were completely exposed with nothing in front or behind us. I've killed deer spot and stalk wearing levis.

On the Haul Road, we used to refer to a lot of the guys as MIB's. Men In Black. The bou would pick them up at crazy distances and loop around.

From: Surfbow
01-Dec-17
I'm not a tree stand guy, but have you considered that sitting lower may mean the deer are smelling you more than they are seeing you? I'm sure the spray paint will solve your ills though ;)

From: Pat Lefemine
01-Dec-17
It's a dark camo pattern for sure. When it came out I questioned the Sitka guys as there was definitely an evergreen bias in the design. I still own two sets and I wear them in evergreens and blinds. The clothing is extremely warm. I agree that there is no comparison to the Fanatic in Elevated II berber fleece. I've killed plenty of deer before they changed the pattern and I don't remember being nailed any more than usual. But if you aren't confident, that doesn't help.

From: Ambush
01-Dec-17
Late season, below freezing tree stand hunting can be an endurance test. If your not warm, you won't stay put or be able to draw your bow when that one chance does come. Sitting in a bare poplar tree does make you feel like a beacon issuing warnings to any animals moving through.

I dress in layers of Merino wool and down clothing. The wool controls moisture, the down keeps you warm. Although puffy the down doesn't feel bulky or restrictive. I use a heavy down vest then either a down jacket or thicker down coat. On the outside I use a thin fleece layer. I buy cheap fleece winter camo for tree standing. The jacket should have a hood. I buy the double or triple extra large, on sale, at the season end from Canadian Tire, Walmart, Cabelas or wherever.

You can add a light windproof layer over the down to. The key is to be warm and flexible. A hand muff with chemical warmers is a must for me. I can wear light gloves and not worry about getting heavy mitts off before the shot.

I have some high end clothing to for mountain and spot and stalk hunting, but tree standing is a whole different game. The right tools for the job, gets the job done better and is more enjoyable.

From: elk yinzer
01-Dec-17
I think you are probably better off wearing blaze orange than very dark blob camo as far as deer vision goes.

From: ohiohunter
01-Dec-17
Apauls... I dunno about spray paint on fabric, never done it, but do you think you can tie die it with some darker color to break up the fade???

Greatest marketing dupe in history is the "money back guarantee", usually the return process is a PITA and most people just take it on the chin.

01-Dec-17
I'm sure the functionality of the suit/system is great, but I can't get past the camo pattern itself. It doesn't blend in at all in the woods i hunt in PA.

I've got a buddy who has a suit and I can see him from a good distance away. Looks like a dark blob while on the ground or in a tree.

Seriously, I think whoever came up with those colors should be kicked in the groin.

From: Scoot
01-Dec-17
Jack Harris x 2- he nailed it!

From: woodguy65
01-Dec-17
I have the fanatic and a bunch more Sitka. I purchase it for fit and function - I don't put much stock in any camo pattern, mostly irrelevant IMO.

That said, its funny, I thought the exact same thing you did with respect to the "blue hue/colors" used in it. I found it odd that given the "research" they would use any shade of blue in their clothing.

From: Brotsky
01-Dec-17
I only wear camo to look good in the pictures. I'm not as handsome as Blacktail Bob. Ha!

From: M.Pauls
01-Dec-17
I completely disagree with my brother regardless of what he says. This Camo is da bomb. Trust me. Anyone want to trade you’re elevated II for my superior green stuff? PM me

01-Dec-17
Anyone else use Cabela's Instinct besides me? I am very happy and have great results in cold weather tree stand hunting in the Midwest. As others stated, I think it is more about movement than actual camo pattern.

From: SaddleReaper
01-Dec-17
"Man oh man if only Sitka had been able to put predator fall grey over top of their jackets..."

If they did, it would likely be the best camo ever made.... I've been dreaming of Sitka or Firstlite doing this for a long time! Maybe some day we'll get lucky. Firstlite is available in ASAT which is the next best thing to some of the Predator patterns IMO...

From: ohiohunter
01-Dec-17
Saddle, I don't think FL is gonna be available in ASAT any longer. Seems they've been clearing them out in the latest sales. They've invested in their own camo.

From: cnelk
01-Dec-17
If I don’t move when I’m in a tree stand I don’t even need camo.

From: Franzen
01-Dec-17
I think it is just targeted toward southern hunters who need it at 50F and the trees are still green, not Canadians. ;^) I have the Elevated II, but heck I'm lucky if I wear it 3 hunts a year.

From: t-roy
01-Dec-17
From the title, I thought this was going to be another bowriter thread!

From: 7mm08
01-Dec-17
Predator or ASAT-AU for me. Almost seems like an "invisible cloak". I hunt 90% from the ground, including whitetails.

From: APauls
01-Dec-17

APauls's embedded Photo
APauls's embedded Photo
This is what the bush looks like. Sat a little lower and wore my predator fleece tonight. It was WARM out!! Just barely below freezing and zero wind. 4 deer came by didn’t get picked off at all. Man that predator is awesome.

To the guys that are invisible when they don’t move maybe you have the luxury of being where the trees are thicker than 6” or maybe you’re really really skinny ;)

Don’t get me wrong I’ve killed in it, but I definitely notice a difference in the effectiveness of the camo. Problem with wearing something overtop is then I lose access to the hand muff which is crucial when it actually gets cold. As others have said it’s awesome stuff as far as keeping you warm which is why I wear it. When it’s real cold I put my Kuiu superdown over my base layers and under the Fanatic.

From: Buffalo1
01-Dec-17

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
I know that deer do not see color, but for some reason they see blues. Their eyes see primarily shades of B&W.

I took photos of the two KUIU patterns the other day and converted them to B&W. One photo is the green pattern and the other is a combo of green/ large pattern. I found it interesting how the two patterns look when worn together. Very distinctive broken up outline pattern.

From: Bowboy
01-Dec-17
Yep get an ASAT Leafy suit and you'll be good to go. Also I like KUIU Vias. Haven't been seen in a tree yet.

From: Scoot
01-Dec-17
Brotsky based on that logic any chance you could wear twice as much camo? :)

From: drycreek
01-Dec-17
I guess I'm lucky to just hunt from ground blinds in a climate less severe than y'all's. Camo or black Wranglers and a black shirt or jacket fixes me right up. I do wear some Bass Pro fleece when it gets in the 20's though, every two or three years.......

From: Ironbow
01-Dec-17
I have been around long enough to remember when you could barely buy camo. Then Jim Crumley came along with Trebark and started a revolution.

I used a lot of the tree camos over the years, and deer would come up, stop and look at me, sometimes get nervous, but eventually go on. I convinced myself my camo was working.

Then I tried Predator. Deer quit looking up at me. I rarely got picked off on the ground unless I was moving. Turkeys ignored me. I felt invisible much of the time. That is when I realized my camo was actually working! Instead of being spotted then eventually ignored, I feel like camo should keep you from being spotted in the first place!

I have also used ASAT with decent results, although not quite as good as Predator. I rattled in a P&Y buck this year sitting in a lone, skinny tree in a ladder stand I hated because it put me too far out from the tree, I couldn't lean against the tree. He knew exactly where the sounds came from, even looked up at me several times but never "locked on". Unfortunately he came in on the wrong side for a shot, which turned out to be a blessing because I shot a bigger buck 20 minutes later :-)

Would love to try Sitka, but hated the original pattern and am not much of a fan of the current pattern either.

02-Dec-17
I happen to agree with most posts here. I love my sitka. By that u mean the functionality and fit. This was my first year of wearing it and I was very impressed this the usefulness and comfort. But, like most I’m really not into the pattern much. Once you buy it, being so expensive and the fit is amazing, it’s hard to get rid of anything. I would no almost anything to see the old Fall Brown predator on a sitka garment.

From: Bowriter
02-Dec-17

Bowriter's embedded Photo
Bowriter's embedded Photo
I could well be wrong, I was once before. I believe, when it came to hunting camouflage, the first pattern that ever had actual science and research in terms of how an animal sees it was ASAT. All other patterns up to that time, were designed with how humans see it. The two are vastly different. To this day, most hunters buy camo based on how it looks to them, not how it looks to the animal. They want it to blend in with how they, the human, sees the background. And still, how does an elk or bobcat or deer, completely vanish in cover or habitat that is completely different from their color?

Simply ask yourself this. What color are all the warm blooded animals that depend on camouflage to hunt or hide? They all have the same colors, i.e. tan background with splotches of dark brown, black and white. Yet, they can vanish in a solid green habitat, dark timber or even snow. Were I to have to buy new camo, today, given it was good quality and fit well, I would look at only two things-color and pattern design. If the colors are right, (by my estimation,) the only thing I would look at is simply, "will it blob out at a distance?" The vast majority of today's camo, to an animal, is nothing but a dark blob at 50-yards. Looks great to a human, though. And...there are only two patterns that I would even consider.

That said, truth is, it doesn't matter a whole lot. If you move, they see you. If you don't move, no matter what you are wearing, usually, they don't see you. I have been wearing ASAT since 1983, I was on the original field testing team. Fortunately, I have a lifetime supply and unless some company pays me to wear something else, that is all I wear. Does it work? I have no idea. I know it doesn't work if you are trying to hide from a human. Seems to do okay with animals.

From: 4araquiver
02-Dec-17
kuiu + asat = winning

From: AndyJ
02-Dec-17
Predator camo has served me well since the day it came out. It is the only camo that I feel like animals just look right through me. I also have an ASAT leafy suit as per Bowboy’s recommendation. It’s awesome. Hunting in the plains, animals just can’t seem to figure out what you are if they notice you at all.

More WRT the original post. Camo isn’t rocket science they just want you to think it is. The closest I’ve ever come to a deer was when I was wearing a blaze orange vest over a solid black down parka during a 4th season rifle hunt. Two mule deer actually bumped into as they walked past me. Go figure.

From: Bowriter
02-Dec-17
ASAT 3-D, Leafy is the best I have used. Thankfully, I have four of them.

From: Woods Walker
02-Dec-17
Just make sure that while hunting you don't.......

1. Create noise. 2. Stink 3. Shine 4. MOVE

If you follow this you will get close to game regardless of what you're wearing. Camo is more for the hunter's mindset than anything else. If you THINK you're invisible, then you ACT invisible.

From: Vids
02-Dec-17
I've believed for a long time that camouflage patterns were too dark, and turn you into a dark blob at a distance. I like ASAT, but have been wearing mostly Sitka Optifade Open Country because I love the way it performs and the pattern is lighter.

That said, I've been switching to solid colors so I can wear them while hiking too. I'm 2/3 on my hunts this year while wearing solid colors, including an 8 point whitetail at 20 yards, so I don't think it matters that much. What Woods Walker said is right on.

From: Bowriter
03-Dec-17
What good camo does is this. It may allow you to get away with some movement. Everything in the woods moves-to some degree. Even on calm days, there is some movement, leaves fall, squirrels scamper, birds flit, etc. If you can blend in and do it correctly, you can get away with a little movement. Sometimes. However, just as it is with scent products or rubber boots, if it gives you confidence, then it makes you hunt better. Besides, for sure, if you don't have him on your game camera, no way he is there, anyway. :)

From: Thornton
03-Dec-17
My results of hunting in blue jeans or carhartts with the wind in my face is nothing short of phenomenal. Shot my biggest rifle kill and biggest bowkill with them both downwind anyway so go figure. When the rut is on anything can happen

From: JTV
03-Dec-17

JTV's embedded Photo
JTV's embedded Photo
Oh hell... just get Predator Fall Gray and be done with it ....

From: CAS_HNTR
03-Dec-17
Alot of variables go into it but for late season stand hunting in a "thin" canopy, anything dark is terrible.

From: Shrewski
03-Dec-17
I’ve had excellent and consistently positive experiences with the new SubAlpine this fall hunting elk, Open Country, and both elevated patterns over the years using the patterns as advertised. If you research it and look into the science behind it rather than just going with your own “theory” you might find it works as advertised. I choose to go with the science and research behind Optifade along with my experiences in the field. I’m a firm believer in the science of nothing. I am a non believer in scent loc and ozonics :-)

03-Dec-17
"From the title, I thought this was going to be another bowriter thread!"

t-Roy... I thought the same thing! lol

From: RTJ1980
03-Dec-17
Can't beat Predator Fall Gray. Been wearing it for 20+ years. I love Sitka for western hunting, but for sitting in a tree waiting for whitetails back in the midwest it is Predator fleece for me.

04-Dec-17
I average 75 days each year Hunting whitetails so if any of you have questions about specific Sitka items you’re interested in buying send me a pm and I’m happy to share my experiences with that item.

From: PECO
04-Dec-17
Natgear is a great "pattern" also.

From: Ollie
04-Dec-17
Plenty of satisfied Sitka Gear users. Count me as one of them.

From: APauls
04-Dec-17
Bowriter everything you say makes perfect sense...if something is on the ground. Put a deer in a tree and I guarantee you it will stick out.

Being in the treetops I think is the one time where camo really becomes important. The guys that say they don't need camo I would like to see whether you are hunting on the ground or in the trees, and how sparce the canopy is where you are. As I mention, the times I was getting picked off I was 100% motionless and they see you. But in the thin trees it's like trying to hide on your lawn. I did sit twice, moving my stand lower to approx 10-12 feet off the ground with positive results. I had a better backdrop there.

Only problem with Predator fleeces, is they simply are not warm enough for the Canadian cold in mid-late November. Never mind when there is some wind. I have some Kuiu product as well which I love, but once again, they don't make stuff for late November Canada sitting type clothing.

From: ohiohunter
04-Dec-17
Apauls, have you ever experimented with Vertigo camo?

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