Carbon Express Arrows
Colorado scouting service
Mule Deer
Contributors to this thread:
LKH 05-Dec-17
LKH 05-Dec-17
cnelk 05-Dec-17
Jaquomo 05-Dec-17
brettpsu 05-Dec-17
longspeak74 05-Dec-17
LKH 05-Dec-17
South Farm 06-Dec-17
LKH 06-Dec-17
cnelk 06-Dec-17
APauls 06-Dec-17
Branden 06-Dec-17
LKH 06-Dec-17
OFFHNTN 07-Dec-17
Branden 07-Dec-17
LKH 07-Dec-17
South Farm 07-Dec-17
Jahvada 08-Dec-17
mathewshooter 08-Dec-17
wkochevar 08-Dec-17
Quinn @work 08-Dec-17
LUNG$HOT 08-Dec-17
OFFHNTN 08-Dec-17
Quinn @work 08-Dec-17
Buglmin 08-Dec-17
Ucsdryder 08-Dec-17
LKH 08-Dec-17
Buglmin 08-Dec-17
txhunter58 09-Dec-17
Manager 09-Dec-17
Buglmin 09-Dec-17
Brun 09-Dec-17
Jaquomo 09-Dec-17
IdyllwildArcher 09-Dec-17
Brun 09-Dec-17
txhunter58 09-Dec-17
Jahvada 12-Dec-17
APauls 12-Dec-17
Grasshopper 12-Dec-17
Ollie 12-Dec-17
IdyllwildArcher 12-Dec-17
Grasshopper 12-Dec-17
00rowe 12-Dec-17
Branden 13-Dec-17
Mule Power 13-Dec-17
wkochevar 13-Dec-17
Mule Power 13-Dec-17
Jahvada 13-Dec-17
00rowe 13-Dec-17
Inshart 13-Dec-17
txhunter58 13-Dec-17
Branden 13-Dec-17
Mule Power 14-Dec-17
Jahvada 14-Dec-17
Orion 14-Dec-17
txhunter58 14-Dec-17
Grasshopper 15-Dec-17
Jaquomo 15-Dec-17
BOHNTR 15-Dec-17
Orion 15-Dec-17
Mule Power 15-Dec-17
Michael 15-Dec-17
Jaquomo 15-Dec-17
Jahvada 17-Dec-17
Jaquomo 17-Dec-17
Ucsdryder 17-Dec-17
Missouribreaks 17-Dec-17
Jaquomo 17-Dec-17
txhunter58 17-Dec-17
txhunter58 17-Dec-17
txhunter58 17-Dec-17
Drummond Lindsey 19-Dec-17
Orion 19-Dec-17
elkstabber 20-Dec-17
OFFHNTN 20-Dec-17
LKH 20-Dec-17
OFFHNTN 21-Dec-17
Jaquomo 21-Dec-17
OFFHNTN 21-Dec-17
Jahvada 27-Dec-17
OFFHNTN 27-Dec-17
Orion 27-Dec-17
Jahvada 27-Dec-17
OFFHNTN 27-Dec-17
Orion 27-Dec-17
Well-Strung 27-Dec-17
Quinn @work 28-Dec-17
Well-Strung 28-Dec-17
Quinn @work 28-Dec-17
txhunter58 28-Dec-17
BOHNTR 28-Dec-17
Orion 28-Dec-17
BOHNTR 28-Dec-17
Orion 28-Dec-17
Killinstuff 28-Dec-17
BOHNTR 28-Dec-17
Orion 28-Dec-17
Orion 28-Dec-17
txhunter58 28-Dec-17
Orion 28-Dec-17
Mule Power 28-Dec-17
txhunter58 28-Dec-17
Jahvada 02-Jan-18
From: LKH
05-Dec-17
I have lost my contact information for the fellow who does hunt scouting for pay. Anyone know who does this???

From: LKH
05-Dec-17

From: cnelk
05-Dec-17
Hey Lou Jaquomo....

Sounds like a retirement opportunity... :)

From: Jaquomo
05-Dec-17
Last time I scouted for big muleys I ended up killing a big whitetail... So Larry would probably want his money back!

From: brettpsu
05-Dec-17
Does Robby Denning do Colorado? What about Brian Latturner?

From: longspeak74
05-Dec-17
There's a couple guys on Wapititalk.com that you might be thinking of.

From: LKH
05-Dec-17
I've got the right people. Thanks

From: South Farm
06-Dec-17
That would be me. I charge a nominal $500/day plus expenses, 50% down deposit up front or I won't even lace up my boots.

In all seriousness, if you don't find the guy you're really looking for my offer stands!

From: LKH
06-Dec-17
Why would I want a guy from Minniesnowtah to guide me.

From: cnelk
06-Dec-17
Im from Colorado but my prices are higher than South Farm's

From: APauls
06-Dec-17
I'm in the wrong business...

From: Branden
06-Dec-17
There was a guy on here last year that used a Colorado scouting service. He killed a nice buck with the velvet torn up if I remember right. I would look back through the posts from last year and ask him who he used.

From: LKH
06-Dec-17
Thanks to all, but I found the contact info.

From: OFFHNTN
07-Dec-17

OFFHNTN's embedded Photo
OFFHNTN's embedded Photo
Branden, that was me.

LKH - Let me know if you still need another contact for this.

From: Branden
07-Dec-17
Yep that’s the pic I was thinking of. Great looking buck.

LKH who are you looking at using?

From: LKH
07-Dec-17

LKH's embedded Photo
LKH's embedded Photo
Antler Quest. I want a good hunt with a chance of killing an old buck. I'll be just short of 71 when I go. I've killed a couple of very good muleys with rifle and a few decent ones with my longbow. I have 18 NR points which means my choices are almost unlimited. I don't have the time or inclination to make the trip to CO to scout a bunch of units.

Jeff Caldwell comes highly recommend, I don't want to leave the kids any money, so his fees aren't an issue for me.

There are a lot of you guys who would help me make choices and I appreciate it, but I've given my word to Jeff and I'll honor that.

Mostly I just want to have a good trip. If I kill an old buck, size optional, I'll consider that a bonus.

Larry

From: South Farm
07-Dec-17
LKH, I thought you were looking for someone to simply scout...You didn't say you wanted me to guide you...that's extra! ;)

From: Jahvada
08-Dec-17
I will just leave this here... Kinda amazing how antler size will make folks support a convicted poacher. Hey what every it takes right boys??! Below is the press release about it from the CPW. Good luck on your hunt...

Jeff Coldwell 43, of Firestone Colorado, of Antler Quest, has pleaded guilty to poaching charges as well as leaving the poached deer to rot.

Jeff Coldwell pleaded guilty to illegal possession of 3 or more in Weld county. In addition to the foritfiture of the illigally taken wildlife he forfeited his muzzleloader and the court fined him $7,500 with 36 months probation. Coldwell also pled guilty to abuse of public records in Adams County and received a 2 year deferred sentence for false statements made regarding a bear license. The courts donated a portion of his fine to Operation Game Thief.

The abuses also led the Colorado Wildlife Commission to suspend Coldwell’s privilege of applying for, purchasing, or exercising the benefits conferred by all DOW licenses for 20 years. His license privileges are also suspended in 22 Wildlife Violator Compact states.

It all began with a hunch. Wildlife Officer Windi Padia contacted Jeff Coldwell while on ATV patrol in Game Management Unit 20 during the 2005 muzzleloader season. Coldwell had a muzzleloader, but no hunting license in his possession. Noticing a clump of deer hair near his truck, Padia inquired further, but Coldwell denied taking a deer. Coldwell was visibly nervous throughout the contact and told Padia he had been hunting with a family member who had a deer license for GMU 18, about seven miles to the west and over the Continental Divide. After checking the records for Coldwell’s license, Officer Padia found that it was valid for GMU 20 only.

Additional Wildlife Officers, Aimee Ryel and John Koehler, were engaged to conduct interviews in Coldwell’s hometown, whereupon he admitted he had taken a large mule deer buck illegally in GMU 18 and had already transported the cape out of the unit by backpack. Another deer was shot by the licensed family member and both animals were left to rot. Officers hiked to the kill site and located the trophy-quality skinned buck, as well as a quartered buck. The meat was only salvageable on one of the animals.

Now, the full arm of the law reached in--a search warrant was obtained for Coldwell’s residence yielding evidence that Coldwell used another family member's license to tag a buck in 2000. Padia seized Coldwell’s computer and found further evidence of a wildlife violation--emails from Coldwell showed that he had gone bear hunting in 2005 and finding that people were camped near his hunting spot, promptly told a representative from the DOW that he was not able to go on his bear hunt due to medical issues. Six bear preference points were reinstated to Coldwell based on his statements. This fraudulent activity led Officer Padia to charge him with abuse of public records. After disposition of the case in Adams County, his bear preference points were revoked.

In connection with the case, two members of Jeff Coldwell’s family have received citations for wildlife violations and have chosen to pay their fines.

One poaching leads to proof of another

Evidence also seized from Coldwell’s computer revealed information from a 2003 Trophy Hunter magazine article depicting Coldwell in Fox Park, also in GMU 18, with a harvested buck. This evidence prompted Officer Padia to obtain another search warrant for his residence. The buck in question was seized and it was determined that Coldwell poached it in 2003 in GMU 18 during muzzleloader season. He did not have a license for GMU 18 that year.

“Transferring licenses, a form of ‘party hunting’, has severely negative impacts on our wildlife,” said Officer Windi Padia. “Hunting opportunities are regulated for a reason—any additional opportunity created by a poacher is one less opportunity for an ethical hunter. Everyone who values our wildlife should know that poaching doesn’t pay.”

You can help stop poaching. If you see a poaching incident, report it. Poaching is a crime against you, your neighbor, and everyone else in the state of Colorado. Call 1-877-COLO-OGT toll-free or Verizon cell phone users can just dial #OGT. If you'd like, you can e-mail us at game.thief@state.co.us .

08-Dec-17
What a scumbag!! He should not be allowed to step in the woods!!!

From: wkochevar
08-Dec-17
I thought that name sounded familiar....buyer be ware and good luck!

From: Quinn @work
08-Dec-17
Jeff can’t step in the woods with his hunters. Probably part of his sentence? He specifically states he is not a guide and won’t be with his clients

Was surprised to see at least 1 pope and young member , self proclaimed DIY public land, bowsite hero on Jeff’s “bragging board” a couple times.

From: LUNG$HOT
08-Dec-17
Yeah that’s no good! He’d be the last guy I ever used for anything hunting related.

From: OFFHNTN
08-Dec-17
This was 12 years ago. I hope people don't hang me out to dry for some of the things I did 12 years ago. I talked to Jeff about this years ago, he fully admits to wrong doing, feels extremely bad and embarrassed by it, and says he got in over his head with the thrill of big antlers. He lost his hunting license for 20 years in CO, and was suspended from hunting in 22 others through the Wildlife Violator Compact States. He all but dropped off the map except for his love of photography and wanting to help others out through his scouting service. No, he does not go afield with hunters. He sends you maps, pictures, info, etc. and sends you on your way.

From: Quinn @work
08-Dec-17
OFFHNTN- Of course he feels that way. He was one of the ones who got caught. Doesn't matter how long ago he was a poacher. He's still a convicted poacher. At least he didn't come out after the charges saying he found Jesus so everything is good now. I wouldn't give him a dime.

From: Buglmin
08-Dec-17
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if the guy is providing you with a service and collecting money, he needs to be a registered outfitter in the state of Colorado....

From: Ucsdryder
08-Dec-17
I hope after seeing this nobody would go close to this guy.

From: LKH
08-Dec-17
You all can quit flogging this. I'll do what I do. Glad to see there is still forgiveness and understanding that once a person pays their debt, they get a second chance.

Just in case you miss it, that's sarcasm.

From: Buglmin
08-Dec-17
I'm not flogging nothing, just stated that if someone is providing a service and getting paid for it, then according to Fish and Game, he has to be a registered outfitter in Colorado. And if he was convicted, then he can't be a registered outfitter.

From: txhunter58
09-Dec-17
You don't have to be a licensed/registered outfitter to provide scouting services in Colorado. If he were doing anything illegal with his scouting business, he would have been stopped years ago

From: Manager
09-Dec-17
I agree with Buglmin. If providing any hunting; fishing; float trips; scouting; etc services (that are not on your own private land) for compensation in Colorado. You must be registered; insured; bonded as an outfitter with the State of Colorado.

From: Buglmin
09-Dec-17
You need to read the status of an outfitter in the state of Colorado and new Mexico. Because he is providing services and getting paid, he must be a licensed outfitter. And, because he is on the national forest, he must a permit area or use day permits. Basically, anyone that uses his services are considered clients. As for being stopped for offering his services, the Colorado State Board of Outfitters didn't know what he was doing. Because of his prior convictions, he can never be a licensed outfitter in Colorado again.

From: Brun
09-Dec-17
This is an interesting topic, but I'm not sure if the answer is as clear cut as it seems. It seems to me that he is selling information, which is not necessarily a service, and that may be legal without an outfitting license. The point that has been made about operating on National Forest or BLM is however, in my opinion a different matter. As I understand it, any activity done for profit on these lands requires a special use permit. That might include taking pictures and selling them to clients. Having said that however, it does seem like a lot of photographers take pictures on public lands and sell them individually, or in books, calendars, etc. I wonder if they all have special use permits? It's also possible for someone to get a use permit if they are not a licensed outfitter. In order to get a use permit you have to show proof of insurance that indemnifies the federal government. You may also need to be bonded, which could be a problem for this guy with his convictions, but I'm not sure it's a requirement. It's also possible that another person could be a partner and they could be the one who is bonded. So even if this guy might be considered an undesirable character it's possible that what he is doing is legal. I'd be interested to hear other interpretations of this.

From: Jaquomo
09-Dec-17
What Buglemin said. My game warden friend just told me if Coldwell is contracting with hunters and scouting for animals on National Forest and accepting money for the service he needs to have an outfitter license. He said with his prior record he likely won't be licensed, so he is probably "circumventing the law" (his words)..

So if you use him, be careful and check everything out. You could end up being charged with hiring an illegal outfitter.

09-Dec-17
If someone who has a tag and asks him to go to this drainage and that drainage and take pictures of all the wildlife he sees, then I think that you could make a case for saying he’s a payed scout/photographer and he’d just need the Ntl Forest permit. But if he’s just seeking out big bucks and selling the coordinates, I mean, that’s exactly what guides do...

As far as his past sins, I have to say, at 39 years old, if I could travel back in time 15-20 yrs, I would whoop my own ass for some of the crap I knowingly did that I deeply regret and would never repeat. But I don’t blame anyone for steering clear of him for what he did.

From: Brun
09-Dec-17
Sounds like that's a pretty definitive answer. I just checked his website and he is certainly offering to make contracts with hunters to scout for animals. I can't believe he would be able to get an outfitting license when he has lost hunting privileges for 20 years. Unless he's found some kind of loophole[someone else holds the license and he is working for them?] then it should be really easy for CPW to check on this. Jacquomo, I hope your friend will look into this, I'm really curious how a convicted game law offender has been able to openly get away with this so long.

From: txhunter58
09-Dec-17
You may not like it or agree with it, but I guarantee you that the people at the CPW are aware of his business and if he were doing anything illegal, they would shut him down.

Check this one out: http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID6/26791.html#57

Post of people ragging on "Founder" the owner of Monstermulies website for doing the same thing antlerquest is doing. Check out his responses # 50 and #57. And FYI, the bill introduced in Wyoming to stop this kind of thing: HOUSE BILL NO. HB0229 passed the house, but that is as far as it got

From: Jahvada
12-Dec-17
Scouting packages is a dirty, slippery loop hole the type of arena a ex poacher who has not served his debt to socity can flourish... Something that the CPW needs to look at IMO.

Tex is right as it is dirty as all get up, unethical in most folks eyes, but not totally illegal depending on the angle you take to look at it. So the CPW needs to take a long look at it from all angles and in the end could get some much needed $ from regulating scouters the same way as outfitters.

More than a few folks I talk with feel it is time a well written citizens petition should be presented to the CPW on a much needed change. Time for DIY hunters who actually work for their animal to support limiting "scouting" packages.. Best way would be to get with a couple of well connected outfitters and get some language we all can support to put in place to curtail what is yea not quite legal but not quite illegal deal - just dirty... If the state feels a few in certain units are needed fine regulate them on par with outfitters. That way hunters know they are not financing the trips of a convicted poacher.

I also believe any change will not effect any hard working hunters as lets call a spade a spade once you have a big deer found 90% of the work is done and the deer is basically handed to the hunter. Even more the case with these high country rifle hunts cater to this "lazy" crowd as with a gun that shoots 1000yds and a dot on a map it is a sure thing to kill that buck. Anyone could get the buck with the odds tilted so much in favor of them but that is what some DIY hunters need to get it done I guess.

My belief is you should find your own deer or use a outfitter licensed by the state as these "scouting" services" are just a way for the lazy to buy a deer then take the credit then claim DIY - that is laughable. In my eyes guys who buy scouting packages is on par with a Jon who buys a escort service to look cool at dinner.. Flat out EGO PERIOD...... I mean why not just go buy a mount and tell the neighbor you killed it kinda the same thing dont ya think?

Tx - how many unchecked, unlicensed, uninsured, "scouters" is too many in any given unit? 2,10,100?? I mean with no oversight, insurance, and in unlimited scope/number what could go wrong lol!

Best part is that anyone would cite mm site thanks for the laugh Tex! I believe the convicted poacher was quite popular over there and pry still is...

From: APauls
12-Dec-17
Don't break your leg falling off that horse Jahvada.

Not everyone is all about EGO PERIOD. I've never used such a service, but I can imagine it being a useful one to take. It is WAY different than a guided service. You run with a guide and you have someone you don't know doing all the work for you AND a guy who walks along with you every step of the way throughout the hunt and tells you to do this and that.

For a person who likes to hunt their own way, but is burning a pile of points and wants to ensure a good hunt, this seems like a great option. You get fastracked into a good area, but get to hunt your own way, do your own camp, make your own mistakes your own way. Very different than an outfitted hunt and "the same as buying a mount?" Camman. It's a legitimate option for people to take, if it needs to be regulated differently than so be it, whatever, but if I wanted to hunt an animal outfitted I've always felt that it would essentially be so that I could have access to an animal I cannot hunt otherwise, and I would love it if I could forego the rest of the help.

No it isn't "DIY" in a pure sense of the word, but neither is it if you get a tip from your buddy that he seen something good over in the next drain. If you get your panties in a wad about something other people claim, you're in for a long ride. Who cares if some guy claims DIY when it isn't. Liars are everywhere can't let it bug you. This type of service sounds like a legitimate option.

From: Grasshopper
12-Dec-17
If you look at the MODEL of how state LICENSING for real estate brokerage is regulated in Colorado, there are full service brokers, and discount brokerages that at one time tried to offer "limited services". After the "limited service" brokerage houses started popping up across the state, and complaints from the public started, the real estate commission, whose role is to protect the public at large, stepped in with regulations stating the minimum service level duty expectations shall not change regardless of the fee charged.

Seems like if guys are now entering the "limited service" outfitting industry, the regulatory body could perhaps step in much like the real estate commission did for brokers. Perhaps all "limited service" outfitters (scouting services) should have licensing requirements, meet a regulatory threshold including education, testing on the law at hand, background checks, and have regulatory remedies for complaints from the public. You can't be a convicted felon, and hold a real estate license in Colorado, it is done so to protect the public at large.

Those are solely my own opinions, based on being licensed by the state as a real estate broker, complying with regulations like an FBI background check, passing a test on the law, and annually meeting continuing education requirements to better serve the public.

From: Ollie
12-Dec-17
We all don't live in Colorado like you so we don't always have time to research and scout game lands. While I have never used a scouting service per se, I have gone on quite a few outfitted hunts where the guides/outfitter are responsible for locating the most productive places to hunt. Nothing wrong with wanting to spend your limited vacation time in an area where there is game rather than stumbling about your entire hunt without seeing anything.

12-Dec-17
I don't see any problem with the practice either, although I'm not sure that it's right to charge two different groups of people differently for doing the same thing...

In some states, it's no small thing to become a guide. It costs money, there are bonds and whatnot... To be a guide in AK, you have to have hunted in the state for 5 yrs, have taken a course, been along with and assisted a certain number of hunts/stalks, besides paying money to the state.

From: Grasshopper
12-Dec-17
CRS 12.55.5-102 states:

"Outfitter" means a person soliciting to provide or providing, for compensation, outfitting services for the purpose of hunting or fishing on land that the person does not own.

(5.5) "Outfitting services" means providing transportation of individuals, equipment, supplies, or wildlife by means of vehicle, vessel, or pack animal, facilities including but not limited to tents, cabins, camp gear, food, or similar supplies, equipment, or accommodations, and guiding, leading, packing, protecting, supervising, instructing, or training persons or groups of persons in the take or attempted take of wildlife.

I would think both AntlerQuest and Monstermulies "Founder" should be licensed Colorado outfitters to provide "scouting services" since they are providing supplies, wildlife, and instructing. Just my personal opinion.

From: 00rowe
12-Dec-17
I guess I have to "admit" to using Antlerquest. I live 14 hours away from Colorado, I had accumulated 14 preference points and wanted a little help as to where to start. So I got a map and some pictures as to a proven area to begin looking.

I hiked in, on my own, used my own gear, spotted my own deer, stalked the deer that I found, shot that deer, processed that deer on my own and hiked it out 6 miles to my truck.

Definitely not guided, not defending Jeff, but I think its a service that fills the "void" between guided and DIY when its not possible for some of us to scout like we should.

I guess I should now be licensed also because I have shared some of the information from that hunt with a few guys that may also be hunting that same area? Fishing hot spots are all over the internet, assuming this also happens in Colorado, do those guys need to be licensed?

If hunters are harvesting at too high of success rate then states to to further limit the tags available.

Mike

From: Branden
13-Dec-17
Some of these posts are laughable. As long as antler quest has been around I doubt it is illegal or he would be shut down by now.

Who cares if someone that uses a scouting service claims it was a diy hunt? Does that hurt anyone else if they aren’t telling the truth about it?

Jahvada why is a scouting package dirtier then using an outfitter? One of them holds your hand completely. Basically is all you have to do is pull the trigger with a good outfitter. A scouting package only supply’s info on an area. You have to actually get yourself there. Spot your own animal etc.

Jahvada so a guy that uses a scouting package is lazy? Some people would call them smart. It probably costs less money to use a scouting package then to fly, rent a car, use 2 days vacation so you can scout for an entire weekend. Idk what the package costs but I’m sure it’s a wash money wise plus it saves you a couple vacation days that you can use for family time or more hunting time. Also most guys that are in the type of shape that OFFHNTN is in I would not call lazy.

Are you calling bohuntr part of this lazy crowd? I know he has used Jeff before?

You guys need to get off your high horses. Why aren’t you bashing outfitters that do way more for a hunter then any scouting package does?

I’m sure everyone that is against scouting packages is against using an outfitter with hounds to shoot a mountain lion right? Because after the outfitter drives you around, let’s the dogs out on the tracks, and trees the cat, is all you do is walk up and shoot it. Doesn’t seem like it would even take a hunter to make that kill? More like a shooter is all you need. How bout outfitted bear hunts with bait. Outfitter has multiple locations pre baited. You show up, get driven to your stand, and shoot yogi when he walks in to eat a donut. Again doesn’t take much of a hunter. More like a shooter.

Buying a scouting package and killing an animal isn’t easier then shooting a cat out of a tree or shooting a bear over bait. So are we going to start calling these hunters lazy also?

I just can’t wrap my head around the fact most people against scouting packages are fine with fully outfitted hunts where the guide does everything for you. Crazy world we live in.

From: Mule Power
13-Dec-17
If passing on information in any form is a crime something is very wrong. Wtf!

From: wkochevar
13-Dec-17
00rowe, I think the difference people are talking about is you didn't get paid for sharing the info with whomever...at least you didn't indicate you did. therein lies the difference and subsequent requirements. K

From: Mule Power
13-Dec-17
What's the difference??? The way the outfitting laws and Forest Service regs read the line is drawn when you receive any key nd of compensation for providing a service ON PUBLIC LANDS such as national forest as well as accompanying a hunter while afield.

What if you stay at a hotel or rent a cabin and ask the owner if he can point you in the right direction? Who would consider that unethical or illegal? Ridiculous

From: Jahvada
13-Dec-17
Seems the good folks up in Wyoming feel pretty strong about open abuse that happens when "scouters" sell the GPS coordinates of big bucks... So strong that they introduced a bill about a week ago to stop it....

Great idea, bill, and step in the right direction. Colorado looks to follow suit soon and I am in full support of the Wyoming bill.

They sent it out via email about a week ago.. The web link went live yesterday and is below. Great to hear a similar movement is afoot in Colorado!

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2018/Introduced/HB0005.pdf

From: 00rowe
13-Dec-17
wkochevar, I kind of rambled there, but the earlier posts about MonsterMuleys Founder was what I was referring to as far as "sharing information" without being compensated.

From: Inshart
13-Dec-17
I think the bottom line here is that this guy is a poacher and should NOT be able to assist anyone "IN ANY WAY" with anything that has to do with hunting!

"Done your time" - "paid your debt to society" - now drift off and hunt on your own.

If you love the outdoors and photographing so much (as was stated), but PLEASE don't give anyone the BS that you are providing this service simply because of your love of the outdoors - if it was that darn important to you - do it for free then.

Simply put - He's doing this to for profit, because it's PROFITABLE!

Paid his debt to society - really - so then a convicted sexual predator that had raped 3 boy scouts gets out of prison after 15 years (paid his debt - as you put it) - now its okay for him to go back and be a troop leader simply because he loves to show the boys how to tie knots. REALLY!

From: txhunter58
13-Dec-17
Jahvada: I am no lawyer, but that "law" seems to me to be not worth the paper is it written on.

"a) No person shall advertise or provide to a hunter for remuneration the location and identification information of any previously scouted big or trophy game animal for the purpose of aiding the hunter in the taking of that specific previously scouted big or trophy game animal."

Talk about a law with a loopholes. So you don't sell location of a specific trophy animal, but a location where "you have seen some nice bucks". Wink, wink. If they want to pass a law that these people have to have some sort of an outfitters license, so be it, but this law will do nothing

From: Branden
13-Dec-17
Jahvada I see you posted again but never answered any of my questions. Why not?

From: Mule Power
14-Dec-17
TXHunter..... exactly!

From: Jahvada
14-Dec-17
Branden - you obviously know very little about outfitting in Colorado. Outfitters are regulated to a given area in a given unit, most report harvest to cpw, have insurance, have evacuation plans ect in place for clients, and are bonded...

They have to hold a outfitters license with the state and have actually quite a bit of over site from the CPW. There is 0, zip, nada oversight as to area or scope of "scouters". Or for example with no oversight a convicted poacher can be making a ton of $$$ on the wildlife of the state... So basically over site, accountability, and integrity are 3 big differences between outfitters and some of these "scouters"

I guess I believe what Officer Windi Padia said or “Hunting opportunities are regulated for a reason—any additional opportunity created by a poacher is one less opportunity for an ethical hunter. " Yep that sums it up for me.

Your tirade about lions/outfitters/bears not sure what you are getting at yea outfitters use dogs and get the quota every year around here and that is a good thing in my eyes.. I dont know either of the people you speak of above.

But now some of you guys have me thinking... Or I am seriously thinking about starting a web site with pictures of animals (mainly large mule deer) listed unit by unit where a hunter can bid and the highest bidder (with a reserve) wins the location on a given date. Landowners could post their tags for sale right along pics of the animals and get the most $$ out of the LO tag they were allocated. Great idea kinda a giant clearing house of animals where anyone could post a pic (for a 25% fee) and get paid big $$$. Me and a group of friends would add animals we find. Hunters could then watch in real time as pics would be updated and pick the animal they wanted with out leaving the comfort of their lazy boy recliner - that is if they could bid enough. I mean how much for a 160" buck, 170", at 180" the real money comes out - if you find a 200" put it up and get paid some real money!! Maybe just maybe we could sell every buck in a lot of basins and again make some great $$... Hows that sound Branden??

When it comes down to it the pimping of wildlife and bringing money into hunting is something most hunters despise but is unavoidable. Outfitters fill a needed roll in the process for some and are tightly regulated. Getting a giant muley is not supposed to be a easy task and many hunters as you say would rather spend money than do their own work and there is where I see the problem...

Or IMO it is getting to the time where Colorado needs to follow Wyoming's and put some regulations in place to regulate what is currently a wild wild west type of thing going on out there..

Tx good to see you are still chugging that mm kool-aid lol...

From: Orion
14-Dec-17
is bohntr going to comment on using a convicted poacher for information? Doesn't seem like someone so associated with pope and young should be involved in. I also can't believe how many guys are defending a convicted poacher

From: txhunter58
14-Dec-17
Jahv: You are drinking the cool aid if you think that law will do anything. What that does is pass something so the legislators can pat themselves on the back and say "we did something" but in reality, it doesn't stop what they are trying to stop. Surely you have to see how easy it would be to get around that law.

Good to know you are above all the riff raff over at MM. It is a damn good website but you are also drinking the cool aid if you think anyone tells me what to think. I posted the MM thread to back up the FACT that what is being done is not illegal. Nothing more, nothing less. And If you think that Jeff is welcome at MM still, you need to get your facts straight. He was "run out of town" over there when he got into trouble. The only person over there that tries to defend poachers is Tristate, and I will let you draw your own conclusions about him.

From: Grasshopper
15-Dec-17
I hope you guys give some thought to where this is headed. At some point, you have to defend what hunters do to both anti-hunters, and non hunters. THEY VOTE, and outnumber us by 9 to 1. They see us as killers who don't care about the animal, just self centered self glorification morons who only care about the antler on the wall.

Not sure how you defend the act of hunting when it gets to the point Jahvada is describing, I learned today we are already there. Not only can we sit on the couch, look at the pictures until we find the object of our desire, we can auction bid for the location of the trophy you want, and we can also participate on the back end of the equation by finding animals, getting photos, and uploading to the webmaster for our cut of the pie. Soon, instead of " I buy houses" signs posted on street corners, we will find "I buy big bucks and bulls" signs with www.prehunt.com on them so we can all turn in that buck or bull we found.

Try to defend that against HSUS ads making us all look like selfish slobs who forgot about fair chase, putting the animal ahead above our own self centered goals, and conservation. What do we say when the Sierra club, defender of wildlife, earth justice, rocky mountain wolf project and others run the next ballot initiative to ban hunting in Colorado? This thread is about Colorado, we have 5.5 million people here, and well over 5 million of them don't hunt, and don't care if you get to or not.

Those are solely my own opinions, and this does not bode well for the future.

From: Jaquomo
15-Dec-17
The way I look at it, there are whores in this world, and there are those willing to pay whores for a shortcut to a good time.

OTOH, most are willing to pay someone who has the time and skills to do what they do not. Truck repairs and plumbing come to mind, as does hiring a hunting guide for a species one isn't familiar with or has the time/ability to hunt on their own.

In not sure where "scouting services" rank on the scale. Selling info on an area is different than selling the location of a specific buck a guy has been watching all summer, but even then its up to the hunter who buys the info to close the deal. Suppose its all about what you want out of the whole hunting experience.

From: BOHNTR
15-Dec-17
Well, finally someone let me know about this post, as I don't get too involved in this rhetoric too often and haven't seen it. I will say there's A LOT of misinformation and armchair attorneys on here that have limited to no experience on this subject matter. Far too many inaccuracies that would consume far too much of my time to elaborate here........not that it would help with some here.

However, there a few things I will comment on. I knew Jeff LONG before (2000) his troubles with CDOW, as did MANY on several of these boards. In fact, I exchanged information with him (prior to his charges) on certain units and states. I provided him with information in states I was very familiar with and he for me in CO. He never charged me anything for that information. Two of the deer he apparently uses were from areas we exchanged information on that I still hunt at times.....I'm guessing that's why he uses them? However, all of this was prior to 2007 when he was held to answer for his violations. I refuse to call them mistakes, as he knowingly made the decisions to do what he did and ultimately paid the price, which I agree with. It was disappointing for many (including me), but it is what it is and nothing anyone else (including family and friends) could do about it. You can't in-ring a bell. I will say that when he was caught he called many of his friends and outdoors acquaintances and laid out exactly what he did......and blamed only himself. I was shocked and very disappointed and let him know that. I also spoke to the female investigator who was on the case to verify what he relayed to me was accurate. It was. While I still didn't approve of what he did and will NEVER condone it, I did respect that he called folks and let them know directly. I'm not sure where his misdemeanor convictions and probation terms are at this point in his life and what he is/is not allowed to do. That is his business. Enough on that.

Another point I wanted to lay to rest was the legality of his scouting service. I called the CDOW director of law enforcement around 2003 to ask that very question, as my hunting partner wanted to use him (which he did)? After looking into it, I was told that his type of service did NOT require a permit or license so "buyer beware" should be used if someone wanted to utilize his service. I'm not sure if the state has changed that law since then, but if not, then I believe he would still be able to operate provided it did not violate the terms and conditions of his probation? So many of you here need to understand that.....and know that real estate law has absolutely nothing to do with this statute.

As for the 'one strike and you're out' mentality, my personal and professional opinion is that IF he has paid his dues for the crimes committed and truly is rehabilitated (no longer a violator) and becomes a steward of wildlife and a productive member of society, then the justice system worked. That IS our objective. I hope that will be the case with him. Time will tell once he has fully paid for his crimes. To try and compare those violations to ANY type of sexual assault is asinine., IMO. Enough on that.

As for true "do it yourself" type hunts.......from what I know of his service years ago, his information was specific drainages and/or basins, different trailheads to go into, and where water sources were above timberline......the rest was up to you. It surprises me that some on here call that a foul? I find it ironic, as some who have posted on THIS THREAD have asked and RECEIVED that same type of information from ME.......in fact, the information I provided was MUCH more detailed than many scouting services provide (where to camp, glass from, which hill-side to watch, etc.). Hhhhmmmm, I'll take the high road and leave it at that, but maybe they'll think twice when they form an opinion on something without looking in the mirror first. Additionally, how many on here have called a warden or biologist for information on areas to concentrate for their upcoming hunt or for the next years draw? I guess the warden should have a permit as well if you are successful, right? After all it's not DIY if you are successful? I don't think so. How about posting on this board asking for help and you receive a PM with good info......then kill a buck. Was it DIY? I believe so. Enough on that.

Scouting services have been around since the 80's folks.....it's not new. Robby Denning has been doing it a while in Idaho and there are several in CO and Arizona as well. It's not "dirty" unless it's abused in some manner. SOME are already outfitters that offer that service as well........however, there are a few that only offer scouting services. Should they be regulated? I'm not sure, yet. Regulations would not have prevented what Mr. Coldwell did, as it had nothing to do with his service and more about greed.....and seeing some greenies, aka CO folks otherwise known as the next CA, wanting more regulations doesn't surprise me at all. To even mention Wyoming is true hypocrisy since their G&F is in bed with the outfitters. Remember you can hike in the wilderness to fish and enjoy the scenery all you want......but if you hunt your are REQUIRED to hire a guide or have a credited resident accompany you. Yeah, they're a good example. (roll eyes)

Lastly, folks that only provide scouting services don't traditionally do it for the money, IMO, as they would starve. So for the poster who believes they are 'getting rich' on wildlife you should do more research and understand and deal with facts.

I've spent too much time on this already. For LKH, if you want to utilize his service, just know the background of the owner, check with CDOW and ensure the requirements have not changed and it's legal, and make YOUR decision based on all that you know. It's YOUR decision.

From: Orion
15-Dec-17
I'm sorry but anyone convicted of poaching should not be allowed to profit no matter how small the amount from wildlife. Whether it is guiding, outfitting, or a scouting service

From: Mule Power
15-Dec-17
I agree. But to make laws beyond the revocation of hunting privileges is giving the government too much power. It pushes the boundaries of freedom of speech and dissemination of information. Maybe I'm just speaking from the heart of a guy who isn't a big fan of government.

From: Michael
15-Dec-17
I cringe every time someone brings up we need more regulation. In my humble opinion we have to much regulation.

As for scouting services. I once thought of using one. I choose not to and happily won’t look back on that decision.

The research and scouting before the actual hunt is half the fun.

If I ever draw a coveted tag I will put everything I can personally to make the most of that tag On my own.

As for the OP and his future hunt and scouting efforts I say good luck and hope for the best.

From: Jaquomo
15-Dec-17
Roy, great post and valid points. As I said in my last post, something like his service is very helpful for someone who has neither the time or ability to scout on their own for a species in an unfamiliar place. Where I have a problem is with those who specifically sell the location of a big buck that they know some other DIY hunter has been scouting all summer, etc.. Especially someone who finds out about that buck from someone else or by following that hunter, then proceeds to profit from that information. Thats the "whore" business I referred to. I once had an "outfitter" (who turned out to be illegal and was busted hard) follow me to where I was hunting a big bull - another guy in our camp told him about it - then took a "client" in there after the season to shoot it illegally with a rifle.

As far as Jeff and his character, I don't know him personally. He's from my area so I know people who have had both good and bad experiences with him. I have not heard any rumblings within our local hunting community about him crossing the line again and my LEO friend has not either, so hopefully he did learn his lesson and has found a legit way to continue to make of his passion and knowledge. I believe in forgiveness for those who learn lessons. Just because someone had a DUI 15 years ago doesn't make them a perpetual drunk driver if they don't continue to do it.

Where his operation falls within the licensing law I don't know - I only relayed what my local game warden told me. I advised Larry (OP) to do his due diligence and if everything checks out and it suits his needs, then go for it.

Like you, I help people all the time with the kind of information you provided to me. That's what hunters do to help other hunters. I never ask for anything in return and would never send someone to a place where someone I knew was hunting or planned to hunt. I don't know how Jeff operates but from my limited knowledge most scouting services don't adhere to that same ethical level. Money tends to bend ethics sometimes. But not always.

From: Jahvada
17-Dec-17
Man you sure get some interesting pm's, email's and texts commenting on a thread like this..

I did not know some of the things that folks say Jeff continues to do are not very above board at all. Since he has NOT served his time it is a moot point to if he is rehabilitated as it seems guys above seem he should get a break BEFORE his time is up. He has not served his time so ENOUGH ON THAT.. I am sure he files every penny he makes with the tax man come tax day lol..

These same guys pry support things like selling the GPS coordinates pulled off unsuspecting trophy pics the net . Or another fool proof way is as Jaq put it following certain hunters and selling the bucks they found.. Pretty shitty dark stuff but hey what ever it takes for folks who dont want to put in the work to get a buck just want to pay for it..

I told a by acquaintance I respect and a fellow DIY and hard working hunter that I should cut and paste this so I did - "he trolls the internet and looks for trophy shots...even the most innocuous background he can find the exact location you are on by using google earth and then he sells the information...if that is not slime ball I don't know what it is...a guy get a great animal wants some terrain to make a good picture and he trolls in and find the location and sells it...most of his scouting is getting info from unsuspecting hunters who are just sharing their photos...beware..."

Another shining review of this "service"... That is not the only complaint I have learned of in the past week since this thread started - so yea buyer beware or maybe CPW beware as this is not what hunting is.

A couple of things - in another call a spade a spade moment - I am sure any kill pics on any web site would be removed if the hunter did not approve. Interesting but I wonder if you guys think he got caught for EVERYTHING he did wrong or just half of it? Seems some guys were buddy buddy WHEN this was happening but saw nothing. Interesting...

What someone else said rings true to me or putting a undeserving hunter on a buck/bull that a diy hunter patterned all summer is another just flat out wrong practice that only put $$$ in a convinced poachers pocket who has yet to serve his sentence .. It does not help either hunter creates a big conflict in the field and makes all hunters look like asses.

Another great point - maybe the best point - is how non hunters see the selling of a animal just for size as that is what is going on here. Crazy how mad they get about it gives all us hunters a black eye. They see it for what it is as they dont have to defend a "friend" or a buck they killed with out working for it... If we as hunters dont police ourselves it is our falt when at a time like this we all look like asses or like we only worried about the size of antlers we can buy..

Many many reasons above where these grey area's have turned to dark black as that is where these scouting service chooses to operate and that is where my service will be much different and a on much much larger scale.

Already am starting to get the photo's and the web site will be up soon. Folks seem to think elk will be a big $$ pusher so we will focus on elk mainly in OTC units as well. Since you can buy a licence right up until starting day and the market is giant with new folks looking for info almost daily. Our goal is set to sell 55 animals off on the first year with no outfitter permitting, insurance, or rules of any kind and I think we will hit it. One guy has even offered up several of the "packages" he bought over the years and we are going to take a look and these spots then re sell this info. Again this will be pics of exact animals, the date, and unit they are in complete with trailead/camping info. To get the gps as well as full package you will have to bid enough to be the winner of the auction. I believe the selling of the best OTC elk spots we know will be a big producer.

So dont be afraid to shoot me a pm if you want to move to the top of the list as I will direct message the first folks to participate - there will no doubt be 350+ bulls and 200" bucks we will sell to the highest bidder come fall.

Going to be exciting as hey if you can beat um join um right?

Tx I was not talking about everyone over on the monster lots of good guys over there my comments are directed at just one guy who's smack in the middle of this controversial "scouting" activity and I believe his handle rhymes with "owner".

From: Jaquomo
17-Dec-17
For those who don't know, a cell phone photo posted on the interweb has metadata that gives the GPS location unless the GPS functionality has been manually turned off.. I don't know how to pull it up but many do.

From: Ucsdryder
17-Dec-17
Jaq it’s easy to turn off. Google it if you haven’t turned it off. When that feature first came out and people didn’t know it....ohhhh boy!!! Some spots were burned!

17-Dec-17
Grasshopper has a good grasp of reality!!!

From: Jaquomo
17-Dec-17
Ucsd, sorry for the confusion - I know-how to turn it off. I meant most don't know how to pull the metadata up from a photo posted on the web. Guys doing hunt recaps are unwittingly giving up their spots if they use cell phone photos in it.

From: txhunter58
17-Dec-17
See if you can get the gps coordinates off here. I haven't turned mine off

From: txhunter58
17-Dec-17

txhunter58's embedded Photo
txhunter58's embedded Photo

From: txhunter58
17-Dec-17

txhunter58's embedded Photo
txhunter58's embedded Photo

19-Dec-17
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that some people get upset at others for paying for information from a scouting service but have no problems asking for free help on forums or social media? DIY is such an interesting topic to me as it seems we all have some help at some point or another.

From: Orion
19-Dec-17
I think it is more about who is doing the scouting then the service itself

From: elkstabber
20-Dec-17
Jahvada: thank you for letting us know about the crimes committed by Jeff Coldwell. He admitted to those crimes after the evidence was collected and he was charged. There is no way to know how many similar wildlife crimes were committed before he was actually charged. Wildlife crimes are especially difficult to enforce.

This is important because if a hunter is trying to decide between two scouting services this information that you alerted us to would help to make the decision.

From: OFFHNTN
20-Dec-17

OFFHNTN's embedded Photo
OFFHNTN's embedded Photo
Wow...........some of you........(Jahvada)..........such high horses you are on. Branden, BOHNTR, and Drummond Lindsey pretty much stated how I feel. But since this thread hasn't died.............

Here is an elk I killed in CO a few years ago. 1,200 miles away. I got a tip from an acquaintance, he gave me some directions on how to navigate through some confusing mountain roads and get to a trail head. Then basically told me to camp there and head west. I hunted solo, sunrise to sunset for 5 days till I got a shot. Was it DIY? I would say yes.......not sure how anyone can argue that. As others have said, EVERY ONE of us has had some sort of intel passed on to lead us to a spot. Saw it on the internet, talked to a buddy, read it on a forum, saw success stats posted, intercepted it from the CIA, martians told you..........SOMETHING led you to that area. According to some of you.........if you are guilty of any of the above.......your hunts have not been DIY. Ridiculous.

By the way, the acquaintance that gave me directions to the trailhead on this elk hunt, was Jeff. Don't like him, don't use him, but don't pass judgement on anyone unless your hands are clean and you are perfect. By the sounds of some of you........(Jahvada)......clearly you are.

From: LKH
20-Dec-17

From: OFFHNTN
21-Dec-17

OFFHNTN's embedded Photo
OFFHNTN's embedded Photo
Good post and pm/letter Larry. Did you get a response?

Congrats on earning that goat as well as your other animals! Total gut check for you and you toughed it out and did it. This is what my heels looked like when I got home from the elk hunt I posted above. But like your hunt(s)..........I guess we took the easy way out didn't we? (enter sarcasm)

From: Jaquomo
21-Dec-17
OFFHNTN, looks like you should have spent some of that scouting service money on a better-fitting pair of boots! ;-)

I've never had a heel blister, even after elk hunting hard for 30 days straight. Still don't understand how something like that can happen.

From: OFFHNTN
21-Dec-17
Lou, this is a common result from many who have used this certain brand of boot......I'm sure you can guess what it is. ;) I no longer own them or have ever wore that brand again and haven't had anymore issues. I'm happy you have such flawless feet. :)

From: Jahvada
27-Dec-17
Yea the photo stuff is crazy even with the meta data in off mode - there are still ways if you have the right program/knowledge that just about any phone pic or pic with a gps even on the camera is flat out not hidden. I wonder how much a map with actual kill sites would be worth? Off would you buy one?

I still think the best way to find game will be with a infra red drone at night with a non hunter (like jeff) flying. As the scouting/drone rules are written if the pilot it taking pics of the night sky/scenery and tell me where the happen to run into game = grey area yes but illegal no.. If the pilot is not a hunter just like Jeff so no harm no foul. Believe me that the infra red setting on these new cameras is amazing as a good pilot can knock out a easy 6-8 basins in a single night. Just another tool in the box to find animals and put folks on em. Only rule I can find is a elevation rule while over wilderness areas.

For you guys who dont think it gives you a advantage there is another scouting service advertising it gives you a 4000% better chance. I am one of the anomalies on this thread as I found my last buck, bull, and even one 350" bull for my wife - so not sure or not if it does it help 4000%? Either way seemed to work for ya congrats on a bull glad your total of 5 days out was not too hard. I get it jeff is your buddy that is ok but myself as well as many others dont agree with the practice and dont agree with a poacher making a living off the wildlife of the state of Co. That is the bottom line. You see it different fair enough...

But dude in all seriousness not sure why we need to see your unprepared nasty ass feet tho? Only thing it proves is you cant find good boots or dont know to prepare enough for your hunt to break them in? Maybe pay your scouter to break them in for ya next time lol. Either way good work your blisters prove you dont know how a boot should fit. Just a idea but if you do your own scouting you find things like that out before the season starts....

Glad to see the discussion continuing with points on both sides and also interesting to hear that this link is going to see some use as relates to scouting services. http://cpw.state.co.us/aboutus/Pages/Citizen-Petition.aspx

So (off) this is not going away for a bit. A couple of outfitters have voiced support for regulation of scouters as a couple simple regulations would solve a lot of the very big problems that come up with the unregulated selling of trophy animals for profit.

From: OFFHNTN
27-Dec-17
Jahvada - The only thing you got right in that last post is that your are an anomaly.

Once again getting on your high horse. Finding a buck, bull, one of our wife and blah blah blah....... Good for you, but..........umm........YOU LIVE IN COLORADO! You are obviously missing the point, so I will have a more logical conversation with my coffee cup this morning than with someone who looks down their nose because they can find game a couple hours away............in their own state.

From: Orion
27-Dec-17
says the guy who hires a poacher to help him

From: Jahvada
27-Dec-17
No worries man.. I know where you are coming from it is hard to find a big animal with limited time but that is how it should be. Next time I hunt Wyo (I live in Co) I will pick some basins make the commitment of both time/energy needed to scout them a few times and give it a go once the season opens. Pry come home empty handed just like my archery deer hunt this year - that is ok - not sure how it makes my horse taller than the others?? Would $1500 or so make my chance 4000% better at strapping some antlers to the tuck and shrink that horse a bit? Maybe.. When the total quest for antlers takes over this changes the hunt - just how I see it..

It is too bad that this discussion was centered on antler quest as it should not be about them/him other than one example but rather about the scouting services and large growth that we are seeing not only in the scouting services information/industry if you can call it that. I am sure from where you sit you dont see this other than your one hunt but some of us do from living around here..

I also do see a big difference is talking hunting with life long friends/family and selling x buck, in y basin, for z dollars.. Again just a difference between how folks see it I guess.

From: OFFHNTN
27-Dec-17
Jahvada - Understood, and I agree on the difference in perspective. Best of luck to you.

From: Orion
27-Dec-17
Yep the laziness of some people is hilarious. Like you couldn't take one long weekend and do some scouting. Also like how bohuntr didn't answer the question especially since he eludes in his articles that he is diy and does it all on his own. Maybe his next story should start, "well I paid some guy to find me some deer to speed up my learning curve because I didn't want to scout."

From: Well-Strung
27-Dec-17
"Am I the only one that finds it ironic that some people get upset at others for paying for information from a scouting service but have no problems asking for free help on forums or social media?"

.

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that some people get upset at others for paying for "sex" from a "woman" but have no problems asking for free "sex" from a woman.

Do you still find it "ironic" or does it sound different to you now?

From: Quinn @work
28-Dec-17
Well-Strung,

What happens if you ask for Free Sex and when they say no you offer Money? Is this "ironic" or "different"?

From: Well-Strung
28-Dec-17
I don't think you offer you just leave a donation. I'm not sure they accept summer sausage.

From: Quinn @work
28-Dec-17
LOL Well-Strung. Winter Sausage in the spirit of this thread!

From: txhunter58
28-Dec-17
Be careful what you wish for. That citizens initiative is how non-hunters in Colorado got the spring bear season banned. Non-hunters use this tool more than hunters.

From: BOHNTR
28-Dec-17
Onion:

I'm not sure why you have a personal attack on me, but I'll be your huckleberry if it makes you feel better. I thought I answered your question in my post, but apparently not to your satisfaction.

Funny you mention articles......hmmmmm. Here's an excerpt from an article I wrote in 2013 under researching areas: "After reviewing all this data, I usually start making phone calls to guides I may know in the business, scouting services, taxidermists, fellow P&Y members, and game managers of the area." I guess you missed it? Nothing hiding there.....it's in black and white print. But, according to you, if someone (mainly me) get any tips from any of these folks, it's no longer DIY??? Maybe that's your definition, but not mine (or many others based on the PM's I've received). But then again, you probably 'killed yourself a bear when you were only three'. :)

As for scouting, I don't even want to count the amount of bonsai scouting trips I've done out-of-state over the years. Arizona and Nevada are easy for me, but some states are simply not feasible for 'a long weekend' when you're 16 hours or more away. Look I get it, you don't approve of the person in your state still doing business after a serious wildlife conviction.....and to stop him, you want legislation. While I'm not convinced that's the answer yet, I do understand your frustration. Most would assume that while serving his penalty (probation), he should not be able to continue this service. Is that a legislative issue, or one that the CDOW and district attorney failed to stipulate with the terms and conditions of his probation?

I will only add this.....and then I'm really done with this thread. :) Juhvada has brought up a few points that I didn't think of that make me question a few things (deciphering photos). IF that's occurring, and someone is making money off of that, then perhaps there is reason for scrutiny and I understand his feeling of 'dirty'. I tend to agree, IF that's occurring.

Hope you have a great winter!

From: Orion
28-Dec-17
Roy I just find it odd that someone associated with pope and young and their strong stance on ethics used a poacher to help gain intel. You can't tell me he wasn't doing illegal things when he was helping you.

From: BOHNTR
28-Dec-17
Actually, I don't know if he was or not.....especially in the year 2000-04 Do you? If so, why didn't you report him? If he was, I guess I should have fired up my crystal ball and knew that beforehand? There are plenty on that list as well, my friend.

Ryan, think about what you're typing. Do you HONESTLY believe that anyone who have either used (paid) or exchanged information (me) with him PRIOR to his poaching incident has an ethical issue? If so, then ANYONE who bought Kirt Darner's book on "How to Find Giant Bucks" is equally unethical. Guess you can remove half of the B&C Board.

From: Orion
28-Dec-17
A quick call to CPW and I'm sure they would have told you he was on there radar. Lots of people reported that guy, as well as others it just takes CPW a while to gather actual evidence to prosecute these folks and even after all that work the punishment rarely fits the crime. It's all good, guys on here chastise and say how the book should be thrown at poachers until they need or get something from them, then its oh well he did his time or he learned his lesson. It's a means to an end for some folks. My dad and I have animals in B&C and we didn't read Darners' book so we are safe. Again a little research would have told people that guy was up to no good as well. I can't tell you the number of people that reported Darner to the DOW. It was common knowledge to see that guy glassing hillsides from his boat and then hear a single shot early the next morning.

From: Killinstuff
28-Dec-17
This thread goes to show that opinions are indeed just like buttholes. The guys who think theirs don't stink.......guess what, they stink the most.

And for the guys who compare the death of a dumb deer to child rape, you are truly stupid.

From: BOHNTR
28-Dec-17
I believe he SHOULD have got hammered for what he did....and from all indications, he did and is still paying for it....justifiably so.

As for making a "quick call to CPW and I'm sure they would have told you"......again, you are incorrect. Please review my first post on this thread. I DID call the them and spoke to the director of law enforcement to see if his business was was okay and if he needed a permit to offer the service. It would have been a great time for them to say something, right? They didn't. It may have been because they were building a case years before his incident OR it could have been they had no indication of wrong doing at that time (like many).

You sure operate on A LOT of ASSumptions without factual data to support it. But I get it.....you and your dad are the PILLARS of the hunting community, you can tell who's naughty or nice, and a statue should be erected in your honor. Seems silly to me.....but I now understand your true motive, as I'm sure many others do by now.

From: Orion
28-Dec-17
no pillar needed. You and others hired a poacher I'm just calling it like it is. Sorry if you are getting offended, but hey you killed a nice buck so I'm sure it was worth it. Last time I checked im not out publishing hundreds of articles to show how great of a hunter I am. How many articles about yourself are you up to Roy?

From: Orion
28-Dec-17
Here you guys go only one of many articles. Keep defending yourselves because you used a great scouting service

Post by Woody Williams on Mar 11, 2007 at 7:04pm

ANTLER FEVER’ DROVE COLORADO RESIDENT TO POACHING

Jeff Coldwell, 43, of Firestone, Colorado recently pled guilty to poaching charges

In May of 2006, Jeff Coldwell pleaded guilty to illegal possession of three or more deer in Weld County. In addition to the loss of the illegally taken wildlife, he forfeited his muzzleloader and the court fined him $7,500 with 36 months probation. Coldwell also pled guilty to abuse of public records in Adams County and received a 2 year deferred sentence for false statements made regarding a bear license. The courts donated a portion of his fine to Operation Game Thief.

The abuses also led the Colorado Wildlife Commission to suspend Coldwell’s privilege of applying for, purchasing, or exercising the benefits conferred by all DOW licenses for 20 years. His license privileges are also suspended in 22 Wildlife Violator Compact states.

It all began with a hunch. Wildlife Officer Windi Padia contacted Jeff Coldwell while on ATV patrol in Game Management Unit 20 during the 2005 muzzleloader season. Coldwell had a muzzleloader, but no hunting license in his possession. Noticing a clump of deer hair near his truck, Padia inquired further, but Coldwell denied taking a deer. Coldwell was visibly nervous throughout the contact and told Padia he had been hunting with a family member who had a deer license for GMU 18, about seven miles to the west and over the Continental Divide. After checking the records for Coldwell’s license, Officer Padia found that it was valid for GMU 20 only.

Additional Wildlife Officers, Aimee Ryel and John Koehler, were engaged to conduct interviews in Coldwell’s hometown, whereupon he admitted he had taken a large mule deer buck illegally in GMU 18 and had already transported the cape out of the unit by backpack. Another deer was shot by the licensed family member and both animals were left to rot. Officers hiked to the kill site and located the trophy-quality skinned buck, as well as a quartered buck. The meat was only salvageable on one of the animals.

Now, the full arm of the law reached in--a search warrant was obtained for Coldwell’s residence yielding evidence that Coldwell used another family member's license to tag a buck in 2000. Padia seized Coldwell’s computer and found further evidence of a wildlife violation--emails from Coldwell showed that he had gone bear hunting in 2005 and finding that people were camped near his hunting spot, promptly told a representative from the DOW that he was not able to go on his bear hunt due to medical issues. Six bear preference points were reinstated to Coldwell based on his statements. This fraudulent activity led Officer Padia to charge him with abuse of public records. After disposition of the case in Adams County, his bear preference points were revoked.

In connection with the case, two members of Jeff Coldwell’s family have received citations for wildlife violations and have chosen to pay their fines.

One poaching leads to proof of another

Evidence also seized from Coldwell’s computer revealed information from a 2003 Trophy Hunter magazine article depicting Coldwell in Fox Park, also in GMU 18, with a harvested buck. This evidence prompted Officer Padia to obtain another search warrant for his residence. The buck in question was seized and it was determined that Coldwell poached it in 2003 in GMU 18 during muzzleloader season. He did not have a license for GMU 18 that year.

“Transferring licenses, a form of ‘party hunting’, has severely negative impacts on our wildlife,” said Officer Windi Padia. “Hunting opportunities are regulated for a reason—any additional opportunity created by a poacher is one less opportunity for an ethical hunter. Everyone who values our wildlife should know that poaching doesn’t pay.”

You can help stop poaching. If you see a poaching incident, report it. Poaching is a crime against you, your neighbor, and everyone else in the state of Colorado. Call 1-877-COLO-OGT toll-free or Verizon cell phone users can just dial #OGT. If you'd like, you can e-mail us at game.thief@state.co.us.

The Colorado Division of Wildlife is the state agency responsible for managing wildlife and its habitat, as well as providing wildlife related recreation. The Division is funded through hunting and fishing license fees, federal grants and Colorado Lottery proceeds through Great Outdoors Colorado.

For more information about Division of Wildlife go to: wildlife.state.co.us.

From: txhunter58
28-Dec-17
We can't tell for sure that anyone on this thread is not at this moment doing something Illegal.

Orion, where you crossed the line is by attacking Bohnter personally. Attack his ideas all you want but when you attack the person making them, you lower our opinion of your thoughts. I understand you are passionate about your beliefs on this issue, and you make some good arguments, but don't stoop to personal attack tactics.

From: Orion
28-Dec-17
your right my bad, but anyone who fakes cancer to get back their bear points is beyond despicable and should not be defended. Coming from someone who has lost two family members and had a best friends 12 year old daughter pass away from cancer I can't for the life of me see why people would use and defend such a waste of a human being. If he was willing to do that for some stupid bear points what would he do for a 200" buck? Txhunter I see where you are coming from and I apologize.

From: Mule Power
28-Dec-17
Orion... not sure where you live but did it ever occur to you that some people can barely drive one way to their hunting area in a long weekend?

I’ve barely paid attention to this thread but figured I’d have a peek since it keeps making it’s way back to the top.

I have no idea what the alleged criminal did.

But paying for GENERAL information should not be a crime. I’m not into the type of stuff that Mossback does and I can’t imagine being able to gives exact coordinates of where a bull is peeing as we speak. I also don’t know why anyone would want to take so much of the hunt out of their hunt. But I have a few words to live by and some of them are “To each his own” As long as it doesn’t affect me or break the laws that the rest of us live by.

My 2 cents for the week on this subject.

From: txhunter58
28-Dec-17
Good form Orion. I can also see where you are coming from too

From: Jahvada
02-Jan-18
Another take on scouting services and scouting apps.. Gohunt put this out there on Dec 31st. Interesting to read the comments at the end. Link to full article below and I cut and pasted it as well.

https://www.gohunt.com/read/life/social-media-modern-technology-and-the-commercialization-our-wildlife#gs.plgzBsw

It’s no complicated fact that without social media much of our hunting community or companionship wouldn’t be where it is at today. Heck, without social media 90% of you would likely have never even been exposed to this article. No matter what your own personal participation level is, it is undeniable that social media is here to stay. While the use of social media platforms can be a great way to share our adventures with loved ones and friends, it can also be a feeding ground for anti-hunting organizations. Self-policing on our own personal level is a given, but what about when a business or organization begins pushing ideas that paint hunters in a negative light?

If you’ve spent any time on social media in the past month you may have seen the latest “insta-scandal” of companies now using phone apps to sell the location of trophy animals on public land. If not, here’s a basic rundown: Within these phone apps anyone who locates an animal, sign of an animal, or otherwise any indicator that a trophy animal may be present in an area can actually sell the GPS coordinates of the location to other users! What's more, it’s impossible to police this information, which leaves the opportunity for purchasers to be strung into a wild goose chase as they search for their next “wall hanger.” I'm sure I’m not alone in saying that this is incredibly alarming, infuriating, and downright wrong on many levels.

YOUR WILDLIFE FOR SALE While the legality of these apps is even questionable to begin with it’s hard to stomach that anyone would be willing to give up any hard-won information and/or be so caught up in the killing of an animal that they would bypass the actual hunt in favor of swiping a card and punching a tag. It’s sickening, really.

The bottom line here is that anyone using this app is profiting off something that is a public resource and domain. That is to say, these profits are leveraged off of animals that are publicly owned by each and every citizen of the US! I know some of you will likely toss out the guides’ and outfitters’ arguments here, but it is important to remember that outfitters and guides pay their dues through licensing and permits to the states—not to mention the money they bring into local communities. At the other end of the spectrum, the creators of these apps are merely making a quick buck while not bringing anything to the table for the benefit of the wildlife and land. They are stealing from you, from your kids, and from your wallet.

The biggest gray area here is the exchange of money for information potentially leading to an animal being shot. This has gone on for years with finders fees made common in governor’s and auction tags. I have my opinions on the subject, but feel those should best be sorted through for yourself.

Wyoming taking a stand Wyoming prohibiting sale of wildlife locations

Wyoming has recently taken a stand against this with House Bill No. HB0005 Sale of wildlife information-prohibition that was pushed the 2018 Budge Session. According to The Sheridan Press, Wyoming Game and Fish Department chief game warden Brian Nesvik said the issue arose because individuals locate trophy class animals, taken photos of them, collected their GPS locations and sold the locations to scouting services, which also provide additional services to help hunters find the animals during hunting season. Back in 2016 Wyoming also banned the use of aerial scouting during the hunting season.

According to the bill:

"No person shall advertise or provide to a hunter for remuneration the location and identification information of any previously scouted big or trophy game animal for the purpose of aiding the hunter in the taking of that specific previously scouted big or trophy game animal. For purposes of this subsection, "location and identification information" means: (i) The geographical coordinates of the location of the animal or any maps, drawings, illustrations or other documents which show the location of the animal; and (ii) Photographs, drawings, descriptions or other information which identify the animal."

KILLING THE EXPERIENCE Watching my daughter, who is now just over a year old, grow up in this world has been nothing short of spectacular. While I have to keep reminding myself to slow down and enjoy what we have now, I’d be lying if I wasn’t secretly waiting for her to turn 10 so she can participate in Montana’s mentored hunting program. I want her to come to love, appreciate, and embrace the hard work and dedication that comes with chasing animals on public lands and consistently filling tags. Apps like these seek only to cheapen the experience that is the hunt and cater to this new world where instant satisfaction is the motto of the day. This is not the hunting that I want my daughter to know. In fact, this is not hunting at all.

Gear Shop - Shop Now

It kills me to think that anyone can stumble into a mature animal and sell its location while effectively robbing someone the opportunity to earn that animal through sweat equity and a pack out that is carried out well after the sun has gone down. While my style of hunting may not be favored by everyone, I do feel that animals of a given maturity level deserve a certain level of physical and/or mental commitment before a shot should be presented. The bottomline is this: It’s not my prerogative to decipher what hunting means to anyone, but I would wager to bet that the majority of you reading this would have no qualms with concluding that purchasing an animal’s locations is far from it.

FAIR CHASE OR NOT? Here is another one of the gray area arguments. When it comes to fair chase, where do we draw the line? In an environment where tools such as Google Earth, trail cameras, and even research tools, where do we draw the line when discussing fair chase? Obviously, this is a subject that is up to individual interpretation, but here is how I see it: I see nothing wrong with using available published data, aerial imagery, or following a hot lead when it comes to researching a hunt. Heck, there’s a reason why I shoot a compound bow over traditional gear. In this modern era, I can choose to hunt as primitive or as tech savvy as I want with the limit falling comfortably into the lap of my consciousness.

Screenshot from social media page comment against selling wildlife

Scouring harvest data or buck to doe ratios has never told me where animals inhabit a unit. Sure, combining that information with wildlife studies and aerial maps can narrow down good deer and elk habitat, but all of these areas still need to be ground verified. After finding a few good looking spots, I still have to hike into my favorite high country basins to glass or set trail cameras before learning a mature bull is in the area. I could save an awful lot of gas and time away from my family if I just purchased the location of a buck or bull the night before a hunt, but at what cost? I did absolutely nothing to earn that animal.

PUBLIC PERCEPTION Perhaps the greatest issue I see with the apps is the public image they are creating for hunters. Think back to any anti-hunting posts where a hunter is at the center of attention. Common words you’ll run across will range from “murderer” to “psychopath” as well as a whole slew of other obscenities. It’s as important now as it ever has been to promote a positive image of hunters and how this lifestyle is so much more than simply killing animals. To put it into perspective, put yourself in the shoes of anyone in the non-hunting public and imagine how you might feel when you see hunters putting a price on an animal's head and selling it to the highest bidder. It makes it pretty easy to see why some have the strong opinions that they do.

Screenshot from social media page against selling wildlife

For the most part, this is where hunting has arrived. Social media has driven the desire to kill a trophy to such an extent that people are willing to sell and buy animals in hopes that it leads to hashtag stardom. This is a pathetic fact and something that is quickly leading us down a road of irreversible damage. It’s time for a change. Fortunately, judging by a few of these companies Facebook pages, it’s fairly apparent that the hunting community has come together in force and let its voices be heard that the commercialization of our wildlife will not be tolerated.

COMING TOGETHER FOR THE GREATER GOOD If you haven’t figured it out yet I hold a lot of merit in the power of social media and truly believe that it will ultimately go down in history as one of the biggest proponents or opponents for our future. This fact was never more apparent than after Utah Congressman Jason Chaffetz introduced a bill that called for the disposal of 3.3 million acres of federal land across 10 western states. H.R. 621, as it was called, was withdrawn after just over a week after hunters across the country united under the hashtag #KeepItPublic and definitely stood up against the loss of protection for our public lands. If we can accomplish something as profound as that in a week we are capable of much more.

While I’m not saying we need to stage a protest because I haven’t drawn my bighorn sheep tag yet (I won't argue if you want to), we need to realize that while hunters occupy less than 10% of the total population of the United States, social media can serve as a megaphone. What we post on social media everyday will be open to interpretation by people from all walks of life. We need to think of ourselves as stewards of the sport and act accordingly. At the end of the day, we all need to learn to come together and fight for the greater good. Spreading positivity among our community and through the non-hunting public should be held in the highest regards.

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