broadhead observation
Equipment
The last couple of years I have noticed something that I did not expect. I switched back to a fixed blade head (Montec CS) because I lowered my draw weight. I had been using Rage. Although the blood trails with the Rage were heavy, the deer and turkey ran farther than they did after being shot with the Montec. I have shot 5 bucks with the Montec and none have passed 20 yards. I am watching them fall. The blood trails may not be as heavy as they were with the rage, but they are not going anywhere. I don't know if it does not scare them as much or what, but even the turkey I have shot are taking 3 steps and falling over dead. Have any of you noticed anything like this? It could be that I am just hitting the right spot, but it seems like there may be more to it.
did you get pass through with the Montec vs not with the Rage? Having two holes VS one hole might be the difference if that was the case.
I got pass-through will all. The blood with the Montecs is quite good too. The observation more being that they just don't run as far. The last one I shot went about 20 feet and dropped dead....
I read somewhere about this exact scenario of animals running further following hits with mechanical broad heads. They thought the animal felt a harder hit with the larger cut mechanicals. I shot a mountain goat slightly quartering away this year at 12 yds with slick trick standard (1inch). The arrow blew through the goat which took two or three short hops and then stood there looking around as if he had no idea what had happened. In about 8-10 seconds he fell dead right there. I have shot a bunch of animals with spitfires (1 1/2 inch) and never had one stand around like that.
I have shot several dozen deer with a recurve and COC fixed heads and some didn't even react to being hit. Several fed until they fell over. Then recently tried a compound with a mechanical and that deer ran like it was possessed. So my single experience with mechanicals lines up with Ty's experience.
Something else too: when shooting with a fixed COC head there is very little noise, whereas the mechanical makes noise when it hits.
I have seen the same thing as well. When shooting animals with fixed blade heads like ST's and VPA's I've had them not even react to getting shot. The few I've shot with a mechanical head have definitely reacted. They all end up dead but it seems to me that the fixed head has less shock value and causes a reduced "death sprint" reaction unless you encounter heavy bone.
I shot a lot of deer with Bear Super Razorheads and I noticed this on a few of the deer I shot. A quick pass through shot through the lungs usually. It was more rare than the norm though. I've not had this reaction since switching to Steelheads, but I've had some of my shortest bloodtrails with Steelheads.
Nvgoat hit it on the head
Most animals I shoot with a steelhead go under 40. Shot 1 deer with a rage, he went about 40. Shot a buck with a Slick Trick that went 120. It's all about shot placement. If you hit bone, they run further. If your cutting diameter is larger chances are higher that you will hit bone. Steelhead is more compact, so as far as mechs go less chance of hitting bone. It's not going be the "slap" of a mech that the animal is going to feel. It's the blades hitting bone. If the head is larger, better chance of hitting bone. Hitting the bone is what they'll feel.
The blade angle on regular rages is terrible, I use a snyper, like a rage but better blade angle, I've watched dozens of animals drop within sight
Some of these situations depend on whether you get complete penetration, or not. If the arrow is hanging from an animals side it thinks something is still attacking it and runs like heck trying to get away.
Mt goats aren't wired up quite like deer, antelope, elk, etc. They generally won't run much if at all when shot in the chest with an arrow. Mine have definitely stood around and lived more like a minute on a good shot (sharp 3 and 4 blade fixed blade heads), versus the 8-10 second dash that most other well hit bowshot critters do. Seems like they have the ability to use oxygen slower, or maybe its their muscle grain that seems to run "both ways" compared to deer or elk that partially seals the hole into and out of the chest cavity and allow the lungs to provide oxygen a bit longer.
That's exactly what I noticed going from compounds and Spitfires to traditional and two blade heads 1" wide. They seem to die just as fast as well.
I noticed it years ago when I quit using Zwickey Eskimos. Those type of heads enter with very little resistance, and with a quiet bow, many times animals don't quite know what happened. They might jump a couple of times and slow to a walk, sometimes they ran. Sometimes they even jumped then stood there and went down.
When I switched to replaceable blade heads, I noticed immediately a deer's reaction to running when the arrow hit. The nose on most of those heads punches in instead of cutting like a fixed blade. Almost all of these take off running a ways, then either fall over or slow down and then fall over.
Mechanical heads add just that much more "whack" when it hits. I don't use them but have watched buddies using them and the animals I have watched have turned themselves inside out getting out of there.
Blood vessels are cut either way, and the animal is going to die, but there is definitely a reaction difference to the hit.
I just kinda thought..smaller hole, longer bloodtrail, but i was wrong from what i have noticed. I did think that the rage may be scaring them as it cracks two ribs on each side, so that could be too.
My experience has been the same as Elk stabber----love those coc BH's from a quiet bow.
Heck I shot one elk in Co years ago through both scapulas [downhill shot] and he somehow didn't feel it...stood there for a few seconds...and lunged as he fell over right there 15 yds from me.
Ty, the larger hole, better blood trail theory is better for selling broadheads than actually killing critters. Maximizing penetration and sharpness is what kills quick AND leaves blood on the ground.
It's all in the punch vs slice and blade angle. I used to shoot ST 125 Mags and they would go a good distance, mule kick, death run, etc. I loved them, told everyone how much I loved them. Still think they are awesome. However, I didn't like the hiss and started looking for an unvented head. Switched to VPA 125 unvented last year and what a difference. Blood trails shortened up with a muted reaction at the shot. You'll get a little bit of the mule kick, but it's more like a bunny hop, they'll run or even walk a little ways before looking back like "wtf" was that then tip over. Buck I shot last year came in nose to the ground, stopped him for the shot, once hit he continued on nose to the ground and airplaned 30 yards later. I don't think he even new I was there. Doe I shot last year, quartering away, got liver and far lung. She trotted maybe 20 yards, stopped and looked back for her fawn which ran to catch up with her then she tipped over. Good stuff.
Once I belly crawled 40 yards out across a pasture,there was an ever so slight rise to flat area,I mean I had to be so flat I had to crawl with my head side ways...55# recurve,,montec g5,,wood shaft,,,I got to where I need to be,,lifted up to peek...he's there feeding on grass,,,as he fed quartering away,,I rose up and put an arrow right thru the vitals,,,I dropped back Down to laying flat on my stomach....eased back up to take a look ,,,WTF he's still feeding,,,???I missed?? No way...feeding,,easing along feeding,,,then he just closed his eyes and collapsed dead....never twitched,.he simply never felt the hit or knew anything had hit him ..it was an epic moment for me...
Here's one thread from about a week ago. I offered the same thought and got several responses corroborating the finding... About 1/2-way down on the 1st...
http://forums2.bowsite.com/tf/bgforums/thread.cfm?threadid=467945&messages=37&forum=2
Last deer I got with a bow, I shot too high - over the spine, single lung on the off side. Arrow stopped abut half-way through, and the deer just blew up like a bucking horse... body slammed herself down onto her back 3-4 times 'til the shaft snapped and fell out... Then she got up and walked away. It was getting late in the day and I didn't have the OK to hunt the next day, so I took the follow-up when offered.
A big mech wouldn't have passed through between the spinous processes the way that the HellRazor did.. MAYBE I would have gotten the knockdown but I was only shooting #50 (compound) and I wouldn't bank on it.
Odd thing...
A lot of guys like mechs for "massive blood trails", but if you hunt the burbs, aren't you better off if the animal A) doesn't run off too far and B) doesn't run off waving an antenna?
Generally I agree with the consensus. You get less reaction from COC heads. Most of the deer I have shot with mechanicals run like they are on fire but for less than elk sized animals I think mechanicals are a better option than fixed. On perfect shots, they are both going to work fast. On forward shots, the fixed will be better and on shots that are back, the mechanical is better. There is much more area back than forward so I think that is an advantage for the mechanical.
I can get Killzones relatively cheap, I can resharpen them numerous times and their flight is superior at long distance vs any fixed head. With these factors it is hard for me not to use them just to keep a deer from running fast after a hit.
Have you gut shot animals with both ? I haven't but I have serious doubts a mechanical is any advantage.
Even if there is some advantage, how much? An hour ? Two?.......the disadvantages out weighs any supposed advantage.
I've went back and forth on mechancials and fixed blades... In fact the last 5ish years I've carried a 6 arrow quiver with 3 fixed and 3 mechanicals in it. My feeling is that the main advantage with the mech's is on the more marginal hits - if I happen to hit back - I'd rather have a mech on... Last elk I shot was with a trophy taker terminal t-loc - fixed blade... Complete pass through at 45 yds - elk went like 10 yards, stood there for 10-15 seconds and then just fell over. Elk kill before that was with a 1.5" ulmer edge - wasn't a perfect hit but decent. Not a complete pass through so blood was horrible. Bull went 1/2 a mile. Knock on wood, I haven't lost a deer with a mech in the last 5ish years - usually a buck a year and a doe here or there so around 10 deer, zero lost - most were complete pass throughs but not all - only problem with no pass through is of course sparser blood trails are often the result... My thoughts are both fixed and mech will get the job done, make the best shot you can, use a good quality broadhead, make sure they are sharp/unused and went in doubt on shot - stand down and back out to give the animal time and not bump...
This was probably never mentioned but I feel if your going to make a bad hit I’d rather the head be a small one so the animal can recover and not die two days later by a 2+ inch gash.
There’s always exceptions to the rules and definitely when talking animal reactions to being shot, ..all with a grain of salt. But I’ve almost always had very short recoveries under 100 yards. COC fixer blades. The one experience I had with feeding till death was 50# recurve and 250gr two blade. I now shoot Magnus stingers pretty religiously out of my tall tines all have been under 50 yard recoveries and a moose about 100. Made a bad hit on a Whitetail this year and that was a 800 yard recovery but nothing but shot placement would have changed that. I did kill one buck with a mechanical out of my Elite and that thing did run like the dickens until he caught his rack in a tree and back flipped himself
I hit a buck this year with a slick trick at 15 yards a little far back. Caught 1 lung and liver (after doing my autopsy). He ran 20 yards, stood there for about a 45 seconds with no idea what happened. I was contemplating trying to put another arrow in him at around 30 yards when he started to wobble and went down. I have seen almost every animal I've hit fall within sight since switching to slick tricks about 10 years ago (1 elk, 1 moose, and probably 8 deer). I'm a big believer.
I have observed the same. Shot a buck earlier this year be 6 yds with Montec he ran maybe 10 yds and stopped and looked back trying to figure out what happened. Legs went out at 25 yds and laid down and died.
Shot 2nd buck with nap killzone at maybe 10 quartering to with exit past last rib, he ran 200 yds as hard as he could. The killzone actually did more damage taking both lungs.
"Have you gut shot animals with both ? I haven't but I have serious doubts a mechanical is any advantage. Even if there is some advantage, how much? An hour ? Two?.......the disadvantages out weighs any supposed advantage."
Never done it, but have it all figured out - gotta love the Bowsite.
Having actually experienced both and having gut shot more than a few animals with 2" - 2 1/2" MBH's, I can attest that the difference between intestines plugging up a small entrance/exit hole and not leaving a blood trail and intestines spilling out of a large entrance/exit hole onto the ground is considerable.
“Have you gut shot animals with both ? I haven't but I have serious doubts a mechanical is any advantage. Even if there is some advantage, how much? An hour ? Two?.......the disadvantages out weighs any supposed advantage”
+1... if you hit the wrong stuff, hitting twice as much of it ain’t going to save you.
But an exit hole is kind of a big deal. Especially from a tree stand, but also in general.
GF, how many animals have you gut shot with mechanical broadheads? If memory serves, the last time I posed a similar question to you, the volume of your posts fell off...like off a cliff...
But then again, there is not much place for actual experience on the internet, just muddies the waters.
Take a look at the entrance wound after you cape the critter. You will notice that there is some blood shot muscle similar to a gun shot wound when you use a mechanical. Not nearly as severe, but still there. Using a cut on contact blade, there is none to almost non existent. No doubt a mechanical hits with a "whack" that the animal feels. An elk will go down faster with an arrow than with a rifle. The impact of the bullet gets the adrenaline going and they seem to run for ever. I have seen bow shot elk go back to feeding and then drop. Back in the day when replaceable blade broad heads were first introduced, the manufacturers tried to convince the public that using replaceable blade broad heads with conical tips took 27 lbs of energy or more to penetrate a green hide where as a cut on contact blade took 9 lbs or less. Then chisel tips were introduced which reduced the amount of pressure it takes to penetrate a green hide. The manufacturers were trying to sell us on the idea that a cut on contact blade would out penetrate by 3 times the penetration. That add campaign lasted less than a year and was proven seller hype. I bring this up to illustrate that mechanicals do indeed cut bigger holes, but gets the animals adrenaline going due to the animal feeling the "whack" where as many times with a cut on contact blade, they really feel very little. I too have left the mechanical group and have been shooting Magnus Broad Heads the last several years.
Sorry Matt, I thought I was clear about my doubt, never said I knew for sure and was why I posed the question.
So Matt, how much quicker did the animals expire with a gut shot by mech vs fixed? If the guts are spilling out I bet that would really help.
I shoot both fixed and mechanicals and from my observation I would disagree with the basic premise. My recovery rate on average size pigs went up significantly with mechanicals. shorter track jobs, better blood trail, and recovered more marginally hit animals. I use fixed on big boars, Midwest whitetails and elk for better penetration and hopefully a pass through. I use Magnus exclusively now but have used slick tricks, and shuttle Ts. All with excellent success but I shoot the Magnus with bleeder blades for better penetration due to light bow weight.
I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I have no more desire to shoot a mechanical than I have to gut-shoot an animal in the first place.
So I’ve avoided both. Entirely.
Sort of like how I don’t pee on a fence to see if it’s electrified; I know the anatomy pretty well, and if you screw the pooch... well, you’ve screwed the pooch.
Use what you like. I’d have to be a complete dumbass to shoot a mechanical out of any of my bows, so I don’t and I won’t. Happy?
I have observed the exact opposite. I shoot between 5 and 8 animals a year with my setup and a Rage 2 blade, and I honestly haven't had to track and animal since 2013. (Bull went about 90 yards) And can't remember how long before that it was that I had to track another. Six so far this year and watched every single one of them drop. I hunt with plenty of guys that shoot conventional heads and I would say we blood trail over 90% of their animals over 100 yards.
I wonder if it's because they stop to look back at that Hoyt shirt and/or the Rage hat? :)
Elkman, I agree. I shoot fixed COC strictly for penetration.
Wondering if the effect from hitting a animal with a blazer type fletching will have some effect as how scared it reacts.
First off the thread started with an illogical bias based one person observation. Second well hit animals will die quickly as as blades are sharp and head doesn’t come apart. Bottom line for me is that I have seen a bunch of marginally hit animals. Everyone questions the mechanicals effectiveness on questionable shots but much of this based on elk which I have always used fixed heads when hunting. On deer and other game mechanicals could recover more animals depending on hit location. As for blazer vanes I prefer standard fletching.
GF,
The only way you avoid gut shots is by not shooting. You are kidding yourself if you think you will never make a bad hit.
For those of you with an open mind, try a mechanical. I am pretty sure if you try one that has a great track record you will be impressed.
The ignorance never ceases to amaze me with regard to mechanical heads.
How is it possible to miss by enough to hit shoulders but never guts or marginal lung/liver?!? How is it possible that ALL shots hit forward and none back?
I shot a whitetail a few weeks ago. He ran fifteen yards, stopped for several seconds, flicked his tail a bit then walked twenty yards, collapsed and died in a few more seconds. Spitfire mechanical. So that proves a mechanical is better???
Don't make me resurrect the "mechanical advantage" thread! I got crossed off a few Christmas card lists from that one.
