Summit Treestands
A question on shot placement
Whitetail Deer
Contributors to this thread:
GLP 07-Dec-17
Scrappy 07-Dec-17
Kodiak 07-Dec-17
GLP 07-Dec-17
drycreek 07-Dec-17
Charlie Rehor 07-Dec-17
Ironbow 07-Dec-17
smarba 07-Dec-17
Scoot 07-Dec-17
Beendare 07-Dec-17
WapitiBob 07-Dec-17
T Mac 07-Dec-17
GLP 07-Dec-17
tradmt 07-Dec-17
Michael 07-Dec-17
Genesis 07-Dec-17
GLP 07-Dec-17
APauls 07-Dec-17
elk yinzer 07-Dec-17
x-man 07-Dec-17
greg simon 07-Dec-17
GF 07-Dec-17
drycreek 07-Dec-17
Bou'bound 07-Dec-17
GF 07-Dec-17
t-roy 07-Dec-17
Ironbow 08-Dec-17
M.Pauls 08-Dec-17
Lee 08-Dec-17
greg simon 08-Dec-17
12yards 08-Dec-17
Hawkeye 08-Dec-17
Scoot 08-Dec-17
GLP 08-Dec-17
t-roy 08-Dec-17
Ned 08-Dec-17
carcus 08-Dec-17
12yards 08-Dec-17
greenmountain 09-Dec-17
bud 09-Dec-17
splitlimb13 10-Dec-17
Bou'bound 10-Dec-17
GF 10-Dec-17
Muskrat 10-Dec-17
splitlimb13 10-Dec-17
The last savage 10-Dec-17
Glunker 10-Dec-17
GF 11-Dec-17
deerhunter72 11-Dec-17
From: GLP
07-Dec-17
On Midwest Whitetail's website they have a video entitled An Amazing Story of a Legendary buck . First , I hope someone can post a link to this. Then I would like to hear some discussion on the shot placement and the results that ended up. To me it looked perfect as far as the shot, but how far and how long it took to die does not match in my mind. So let's hear from all of you. Greg

From: Scrappy
07-Dec-17

Scrappy's Link
Here is the link to the video. I have no idea how that buck survived til the next day with that shot.

From: Kodiak
07-Dec-17
Musta hit a void...

From: GLP
07-Dec-17
Thanks Scrappy! My thoughts also. I do believe that you can hit lungs and just get the small air sacks and capillaries , but this does not seem right in my head. On guy I worked w/ rolled a dozer (before roll cages) crushed both lungs and lived. Just goes to show nothing is certain. Greg

From: drycreek
07-Dec-17
I think this topic will fall into the unexplainable category. No two shots are exactly alike. A couple years ago my friend shot a pronghorn through both lungs with a Spitfire head, devastating damage to the lungs. That goat ran 300 yd. How ? I shot a doe earlier this year with a ST Mag and got back of lungs and liver. She went 40/50 yd. You can’t tell how an animal is gonna react.

07-Dec-17
Pound for pound one of the toughest animals of the NA 29. After 37 years and many 100's of blood trails it's never over until it's over.

From: Ironbow
07-Dec-17
My only question would be how sharp were his heads? Shot placement was good, but broadheads can never be too sharp. Animals die by blood loss.

From: smarba
07-Dec-17
The shot is at 14:00. Looked good to me but buck dropped and looks like the arrow may have hit either leg bone or lower shoulder blade.

From: Scoot
07-Dec-17
It's tough for me to tell, but did he get good penetration? Obviously it wasn't a pass through, but it looked like there might be plenty of arrow sticking out of the entry side of the deer. I'm not sure why as it didn't look like it would have hit shoulder/leg bone. Could he only have gotten one lung as a result? I thought the placement of the shot looked really good...

From: Beendare
07-Dec-17
GLP, I've pondered this essential question for 30 years in many different archery setups for years. I just had this discussion with a good bowhunter that his avg shot on an elk goes 300 yds.....mine is about 40 yds. Its rare for me to have a long blood trail...in fact most animals die in sight.

What I've learned is this; The choice and tuning of your Bow/Arrow/BH matters.

From: WapitiBob
07-Dec-17
I'd say the shot is in the front of the lungs and thru the scapula. Minimal penetration (one lung) and no major arteries. A long day in the woods with that combination.

From: T Mac
07-Dec-17
Whitetail bloodtrails never cease to amaze me.

From: GLP
07-Dec-17
In the end of the video it showed an exit. Did remind me of a one lung hit. Just with the exit it would seem impossible to have not got both. Could it be possible to go through both but one not collapse? (in that spot) And yes Beendare I to ponder this stuff! Greg

From: tradmt
07-Dec-17
Shot placement looked fine but that exit seemed higher than it should have been. Maybe not at that range though?

I don't know what head he was using but maybe it didn't operate properly.

From: Michael
07-Dec-17
At the 27 minute mark he talks about the entrance and exit hole. I know he used to shoot a mechanical. Not sure if he still does. The entry hole looks to be good sized. So I doubt there is an argument to say the broadhead didn’t open.

It is strange he didn’t have rapid blood loss that would lead to him passing out quickly.

I learned a lot from Ike this year while elk hunting on what a body does with blood loss. Hopefully he will see this thread and reply rather then have me try and butcher his helpful knowledge.

From: Genesis
07-Dec-17
Brown Bears better be glad Whitetails can't get to them....they are a Bad Man

From: GLP
07-Dec-17
"I learned a lot from Ike this year while elk hunting on what a body does with blood loss. Hopefully he will see this thread and reply rather then have me try and butcher his helpful knowledge." I would LOVE to hear his opinion! Greg

From: APauls
07-Dec-17

APauls's embedded Photo
APauls's embedded Photo
Here is a pic of the impact. Look for the glowing green nock.

There are always exceptions to every rule it seems with whitetails. I actually hit one a week ago approx exactly 3" right of where this one was hit. Facing same direction, same angle as far as broadside etc. goes. I made very sure of the angle. Got 9" of penetration shooting a rocket steelhead. Left him 30 mins. Tracked for 175 yards backed out overnight. Well below freezing. Tracked for 650 yards the next morning to a bed. Tracked another 200 yards after that and lost the trail. There was never good blood and the last 600 yards or so there was only a few pin drops of blood every 5-10 yards in the snow. Was tracking by tracks more than anything. My mistake was not shooting lower third. I was higher than I would have liked, but concluded that I hit spine, but didn't "spine" him. The spine dips low in the front. I knew the shot was higher than I would have liked, but still thought this was a buck I would recover. By his tracks etc, he almost didn't seem wounded. Never acted like wounded deer do. Bedded once, large normal piles of poop etc. Couldn't believe it.

From: elk yinzer
07-Dec-17
Too far forward, not by much at all, but only got that right lung or just barely nicked the lungs, not enough to collapse both. Very tough critters. Good lesson on shot placement with a bow too. That's about absolutely perfect shot with a rifle. 1-6" farther back and he lives 30 seconds.

From: x-man
07-Dec-17
About an inch or two too far forward for that angle, but more importantly that shot is about 4"-6" too high.

Pat hit an elk that high once. We all know how that turned out.

From: greg simon
07-Dec-17
I question his autopsy results. No way that deer was double lunged like he said. Shot is to high and to far forward. He hit only the right lung. Entrance and exit holes in the hide on a dead deer can be very deceiving, that skin moves around a lot on a live animal!

From: GF
07-Dec-17
"A couple years ago my friend shot a pronghorn through both lungs with a Spitfire head, devastating damage to the lungs. That goat ran 300 yd. How ? "

How? Math.

1 mile is 5280 feet = 1760 yards. Goats can run > 50 mph, so 1760 X 50 = 88,000 yards/hour = 1467 yards/minute = 24 yards/second = 300 yards in under 13 seconds goin' full-tilt boogie.

Not saying they can run at absolute top speed as the lights are going out, but sprinting is an anaerobic sport, so not having lungs doesn't figure that prominently. Even a pokey old whitetail can cover a LOT of ground in 30-40 seconds if you scare 'em bad enough.

"Shot placement looked fine but that exit seemed higher than it should have been. "

I agree with Greg except for which side of the deer we're talking about... The deer was rolling to its right, dropping the right shoulder; I think he topped the near-side (left) lung and the shaft passed over the spine, missing the right lung entirely or grazing it at best... That's a marginal hit, so it would take a good while for the lungs to fill - very low blood pressure in the fringes like that.

I shot a deer high over the spine and only topped the off-side lung. Similar blood, though a bit lighter. Lucky for me, she stopped where I could get a good follow up. That shot was less than 2" away from the first, but because of the angle, the head passed tight under the spine and she tipped over a yard and a half from where she stood at the time of the second hit; just barked, lunged forward and died.

Not a fan of attracting the animal's attention to my position right before making a sharp, unnatural sound. I wouldn't have attempted that shot with any of my bows; the walking animal, yes, but not at that range.

From: drycreek
07-Dec-17
GF, I understand that, but similar shots on antelope have had all of mine falling at less than 100 yards, several of them. The only thing that I could say was different, was the goat was very aware that something wasn't kosher in the blind. Adrenaline boost ? Maybe. That's my best explanation, coupled with the fact that prairie running ain't the same as dodging through the brush.

From: Bou'bound
07-Dec-17
The second lung was not destroyed with the shot if it was truly collapsed as he described it may have happened due to secondary cutting

it may not have occurred until just before it died so it was living on one lung overnight.

What we absolutely know that thing didn’t live 20 hours with two fully collapsed lungs regardless of what someone may think about the shot or what should’ve happened the physiology tells you what didn’t happen

From: GF
07-Dec-17
@drycreek - agreed. A goat on a bee-line and a Mission can cover some ground!

And if she was amped & ramped ahead of time, yeah... Epi is amazing stuff.

@BouBound - yeah... the guy may be a good hunter (I don’t know enough to have an opinion) but methinks he’s a poor or careless anatomist.

But it’s probsbly better for the Rep to say that you made a “great” shot on an “incredibly tough” animal than to admit that you made a marginal-to-lousy hit that was even worse than you thought.

I do credit the guy for recognizing that he had a situation on his hands and giving it overnight, but I think he knew it was worse than he made it sound.

I just hope that if I ever end up in the same spot, it works out as well for me. I came real close on the last one and don't want to do it again!

From: t-roy
07-Dec-17

t-roy's embedded Photo
t-roy's embedded Photo
Here is the proper shot placement........just in time for Christmas!

From: Ironbow
08-Dec-17
t-roy, that is great!

From: M.Pauls
08-Dec-17
Love it t-roy!

From: Lee
08-Dec-17

Lee's embedded Photo
Entrance hole
Lee's embedded Photo
Entrance hole
Lee's embedded Photo
Exit hole
Lee's embedded Photo
Exit hole
Sometimes they can't be explained! My daughter shot a doe a few years back with a 50 caliber muzzleloader at 40 yards. The blood trail was great and I had her doing the tracking. About a 100 yards in we jump a deer. Figure it can't be her - of course it was. Long story short we come back later that night and can't find her. Come back in the morning and find her fully 600 yards from the hit! Autopsy showed double lung hit! The exit hole picture is upside down for some reason - won't let me rotate it. At any rate they can be really tough to say the least. Lee

From: greg simon
08-Dec-17
t-roy I'm worried about the position of the front shoulder on that deer.... maybe you should send me a couple dozen to sample, I mean evaluate, that shot placement!

From: 12yards
08-Dec-17
I agree, too fat forward and too high. He caught probably one lung good but the other one probably not. If he did hit the off lung, like Bou said, it didn't collapse. He also must have missed all the heart plumbing that rises up in that area. Maybe he was forward of that too. Regardless, cool buck, and good for them for making the right decisions on the recovery. Many even good hunters would not have found that buck IMVHO.

From: Hawkeye
08-Dec-17
One lung is my best guess-whitetails are as tough as they come.

From: Scoot
08-Dec-17
APauls screen capture is very helpful/telling. Even after watching it a few times I thought the shot was great. But it obviously wasn't where I thought it was! If this happens to me watching and rewatching the video imagine how often we are wrong in the real world with no video.

A related anecdotal finding I've settled on is that confidence of shot location is pretty poorly correlated with actual shot location.

From: GLP
08-Dec-17
I agree Scoot! Would like Ike to respond.

From: t-roy
08-Dec-17
greg simon ............I was limited on tags, so, unfortunately I don’t have any to spare. Been a tough year!

From: Ned
08-Dec-17
He hit the shoulder blade and the arrow only penetrated one lung, it takes longer for them to die with a one lung hit. I shot a big buck in Missouri, 8 yards sharp angle downward through the lung cavity. deer layed in field, appeared dead for 15 or 20 minutes, got up and walked away at dark. Didn't find it until 1pm the next day, it went all the way across a huge bean field and expired next to a creek. I'm assuming I only caught one lung due to the angle of the shot?

From: carcus
08-Dec-17
I shot a doe on video that went way too far, perfect shot, then later that September sbot a huge moose, shot looked perfect, i was celebrating as he ran away with the arrow buried up the fletching behind his shoulder, never found him??? Common denominator was the BH, and it was the same one used in this video, im thinking the blades dull rubbing on the ferrel?

From: 12yards
08-Dec-17
Ned, he had an exit wound. So he got enough penetration to get both lungs or he missed one of them. That is the only explanation. Penetration was not an issue.

09-Dec-17
I have seen both ends of the spectrum. Deer have folded with what I thought was a superficial hit and I have tracked deer with what looked perfect for over 600 yards. no two hits are the same.

From: bud
09-Dec-17
elk yinzer....x-man...I'm with you.

From: splitlimb13
10-Dec-17
There are tons of things that could have happened. First of all not ola fan of those broadheads at all! The slight movement of the buck may have created a temporary void internally , just the combination of those two things is a bad deal. This past September a hunter looked like he pin wheeled a giant bull at 12 yards with a great broadheads (ramcat) and just before the shot the wind swirled so the bull began to side pass away just as the shot went off, found him a week later bugling and pushing cows. Hard to say ..

From: Bou'bound
10-Dec-17
The on,y thing more intimidating Than the void is the dreaded temporary void.

From: GF
10-Dec-17
“The slight movement of the buck may have created a temporary void internally”

The ONLY part of the inside of an animal’s chest that is not completely filled with important organs, blood vessels or blood within the vessels is the air spaces WITHIN the lungs.

The only “void” anywhere in the animal kingdom exists between the ears of certain humans.

From: Muskrat
10-Dec-17
This is the first i've heard of the 'temporary void' . Fascinating stuff. Possibly the deer have evolved , due to excessive archery hunting pressure, to the point that they can intentionally move their internal vital organs out of the way of an arrow, triggered by the initial sensation of the broadhead breaking the skin. End result, an entry hole and an exit hole, but no internal damage! This would certainly explain the loss of a lot of deer that were observed receiving a perfect hit.

From: splitlimb13
10-Dec-17
Another thing that exist only amongst humans are arrogant ass#$*$ like gf here.

10-Dec-17
That's T.V for you boys that aren't up on modern double speak....

From: Glunker
10-Dec-17
Some of the speculation here is comic relief. Shot over the spine?

11-Dec-17
I am just curious as to why he was wearing his safety harness?? Surely he wasn't hunting after making what he thought was a fatal shot, without exhausting a recovery attempt?

From: GF
11-Dec-17
I noticed the harness, too, but figured maybe it’s better that he’s setting a good example??

Of course some of those things are such a hassle to get in and out of that maybe he just leaves the harness on his coveralls all of the time so that he can just step into his clothing and not worry about getting any of the straps twisted or otherwise out-of-place.

The only full-body harness I own is such a piece of crap that I should probably just stitch it in place on a cheap pair of overalls so I’ll never again have to figure it out in the dark.

But man, would I NOT enjoy hiking around in one all morning....

From: deerhunter72
11-Dec-17
Based on APauls pic I'd say too far forward and 1 lung. You never know with WT's, extremely tough animals. I shot a buck once that on recovery couldn't have had a better shot placement, but because of the angle only got one lung. Tracked the deer for over a half mile and watched him fall over dead on his feet. Week before last my daughter shot a young doe with a 20 gauge shotgun, double lung thru and thru, and she just fell over dead, no kicking, no nothing. Baffled me and my dad, have never seen that before in nearly 80 years combined hunting.

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