Cheating the System AZ & NV
General Topic
I got this from another site. People are using there points to help people draw and then charging them. This is not right! If caught they should take their points!
In states like AZ and NV where preference points are in use and party tags are allowed guys are putting in for party tags and cheating the system and making a lot of money doing so. A guy with say 15 points will put in for a party tag with a guy that has 3 points. The guy with 15 has max points and will split his points with the guy that only has 3. When they draw the tags the guy with 15 points turns his tag in and keeps his points while the guy with 3 gets to hunt a unit he would have had to wait for max points to draw. I?ve heard the guy with max points can charge the other guy $1000.00 for this!
Not sure that is cheating the system, more like taking advantage of the system. Guys with a lot of years in the application game have a lot of money tied up in it.
Sounds like a good way to get a little bit back for the years of persistence. The state still gets its money.
If a guy with lots of points can find someone to pay them to have the privilege to move up in the drawing sequence, more power to them!
I see both sides of it but it is what it is. Time for the States to decide if they want to make a change.
Boy, I’d gladly pay Travis for a few of his Wyoming sheep points. Lots of folks being ingenious, I’m not that smart.
They can only do that once and its if they buy the point guard. If they use it up doing that, its their deal. Once they draw, and they need to cancel for real....they won't be able to. For what it's worth.
I disagree Treeline. Hunting on the west is becoming too much of a rich man's game. This hurts the little guy that is scraping together what he can just to be able to go. Points are a way to help a guy eventually get a costed tag, not a money making scheme. People do apply as groups and average their points - no problem with that. But if the high point holder turns his tag back in he shouldn't be reinstated back to his original level with the low point holder able to keep a tag he wouldn't have qualified for.
Heck, I wouldn’t mind being able to sell points straight up to the highest bidder for about half the states and points I have accumulated!
Then, I could use that money to buy points from someone for the few critters out there that I really want to hunt...
Hell, I would have sold off most of my 22 elk points for Colorado last year! Still have 20 for antelope and 10 for deer that I really would love to sell off!
Being able to turn in a tag after drawing is a big mistake and I knew stuff like this would happen.
Just another shred if evidence it's time to dump these failed points models.
I really wish Colorado would average points for groups. I would have gone with buddies long ago rather than buying so many points.
Sitting one or two points below the level required to get a tag you want for many years gets really frustrating - and expensive! Been in that boat for a lot of years in a lot of states and have too much invested to quit now. Just hope to be able to use those points before I am too old to do the hunts or dead.
i think i should be able to sell, trade, average, give, and buy points, as long as there is landowner, auction, raffle and convention tags. i'm one of the little guys that have been in the game and fish screwing system for 20+ years. $1000 is way to cheap. i'll have to pay for a license, elk tag that wont be refunded, application fee, point guard and deal with another hunter to maybe make $200. crazy! whats would a 9 point elk tag be if i wanted to buy a tag in nm, co, nv, and ut? i have 22 points for elk in az. whats that worth. i would of already drawn the tag in az if they didnt change their screwing system. i would also sell every point i have and would buy landowner tags if i could. the game and fish departments dont deserve the money i spend on points to not produce any more animals.
Wow....God bless America.
So how do you find these high point holders anyway? grin
Points are kind of like personal property that you buy, but cannot sell...
Sucks to keep paying for an “opportunity” that may never happen.
Really sucks to put so many dollars into something and not have normal property rights to the “asset”...
1st Nevada has Bonus Points...15 points is not Max in either state....15 +3=9 so the party application would go into the draw with 9 points, NOT 15 points...Arizona only allows a person to turn back a tag 1 time so people can't be doing this year after year.....What really great elk unit in Arizona would 9 points get you?...9 points doesn't guarantee anything in Nevada since their draw system is a Bonus Point system.
The problem started in Utah with everyone using "Grandma's" points every year. Utah changed the rule on party apps to where the whole group had to turn in tags if you wanted points back. I'm sure AZ was aware of this with point guard but still saw it as away for the state to make more money, and give some freedom to hunters drawing a tag...
If you don't think this is a problem, you are naive.
It happens frequently in Nevada with guys repeatedly drawing hard to get tags while the honest people end up not drawing. The "point cow" is more often a family member or friend who doesn't hunt. After drawing the tag, the "point cow" returns his tag and gets his full points reinstated for next years draw. What should happen is the person returning the tag should get the group average reinstated (in this case 15 +3= 18, 18/2=9, so should get 9 points not 15 reinstated). This would decrease the effect. A better solution would be the one Arizona has where you can only turn it in once.
This is a huge problem here especially in units with limited tags. I know guys who draw difficult to get muzzleloader deer tags every year. Check the draw stats and you will see this is not by chance.
Think this is bad? I heard in Colorado if you own the right land we will give you a premium elk tag for free and you can sell it for around $10,000 every year.
Not a fan of the group point system. Sign up every non hunter you know. Pay them nominal fee and then split points every few years. You get enough friends and family you could hunt with 4-5 points every year and just rotate. Talk about point creep!!!
Elk-smelk Glunt! There are sheep tags getting given to landowners here!
Does NV allow you to return tags multiple times?
MIDWEST- yes can return as many as you want. Fix that and the problem will for the most part go away shortly
I'm a NM resident and think this state has the best system. Yes,yes,I know %6 of tags to NR IS NOT A LOT! At least everyone has the same chance year after year! The e plus system is truly the issue in our state! Landowners selling ranch only tags and hunting on the public land that is locked by their own!! In gila regions bull tags are going from 10-15 thousand dollars in the truly good units!! It really makes my blood boil!
My comment to the AZ dept when this was considered was to make the whole party return the tags. Do that and the problem doesn't exist. There will always be party apps and rightfully so. A small tweak is all that's needed.
I was just about to post what WapitiBob wrote. Change it so if one person turns their tag in, they both have to. Problem solved.
I don't like it as a lower point holder in AZ, but there's nothing illegal about it.
I personally do not believe the problem is so widespread that it makes sense to force a change to the regulation such that all party applicants are required to return their tags if one individual in the party has a legitimate reason to return theirs.
Why would Arizona want to end this behavior? If someone turns their tag in and has their points reinstated, they get to keep the money from the tag and then resell it again to a second person. They knew this would cause this affect when they created the rule, everyone told them. It was already happening before you could turn in your tag, this just allows everyone to use someone else' points one extra time. Game and Fish doesn't care what it does to point creep. They make more money with all the non-hunters applying each year (licenses and application fees) and then turning in their tags for resell a second time.
This was talked about in a popular podcast this last year and promoted........
I am glad i have never got into the points race. Some land owner tags yes but do not keep any points.
AZ may have fixed the party tag issue. When I applied online, I could only buy point guard for one of us.
Castle Oak does the second person have a portal account, if not they cannot have point guard.
Terry
Ditto what Coyote 65 wrote, an applicant has to have an online account to get point guard.
Yes, they do have a portal account. I plan to call AZ Monday for an explanation.
The e-mail addresses between the portal account and the applicant profile need to match as well.
The state G&Fs are on board with this practice as it brings in more money.
No reason is needed for a tag return in AZ.
In this era of out-of-control point creep and extremely high demand for western hunting permits, IMO it is very difficult to justify allowing point averaging in any western state. I prefer the policy that group points always be set to those of the lowest applicant, as is done in Colorado.
Have to agree with the one free turn in pass..... there are legit circumstances where someone has to bail out on a hunt and it should not have to screw up the others hunts.
Also agree the points reinstated should be equal to the point average in the application. That is the level of points they drew the tag with they are turning in.
I think that bonus/preference points have damaged recruitment of new hunters in the states that rely heavily on them. It used to be that friends just hunted together, and it might be different friends each year. Now, if your friends don't have as many points as you, it makes it much more unlikely that you would apply with them. As hunting friendships and groups decline, I would think the number of new hunters entering the sport would decline as well.
As for this comment: "I prefer the policy that group points always be set to those of the lowest applicant, as is done in Colorado.", I would think that would have the same negative affect so as to discourage the experienced hunters from applying with new hunters that want to try the sport.
Like a lot of you guys I hated this from the start but many bitched and complained when they drew a cow tag or late bull tag on accident and wanted to turn them in so this is what we get! I only see it getting worse from here.
Does Arizona still allow you to draw a tag and give it to a family member? Several years ago I know a grandpa who didn't hunt anymore drew a desert bighorn sheep tag and gave it to his 15 year old grandson.
The states have no incentive to change this behavior. I do think though that a person who gets ill or passes on should be able to will their points to another person.
In Alberta, if I put in a group application to hunt with multiple people (max of 4) for a draw tag, the lowest priority member is the priority assigned to the group for that draw. If your group doesn't get drawn everyone gets their 1 point and retains their own priority.
SteveB.."I do think that a person who gets ill or passes on should be able to will their points to another person." As a resident of Arizona with the lifelong dream of one day hunting Desert Bighorn sheep with 27 bonus points I would take exception with your statement. I am 67 years of age and wonder if I will ever have a Sheep tag in my future, while the system allows someone with money to buy points for a parent or grand parent who does not even hunt to pile up bonus points or draw a tag and give it to the next of kin. That is not only cheating the system but it is also cheating fellow hunters. SteveB, how would you feel if you waited over 25 years to draw a tag while some 15 year old rich kid gets to do the hunt cause his non hunting grandma was in the system and drew the tag and gave it to him. Think about it ! The system is tainted under the current rules. When points get shifted from one person to another somebody gets screwed.
Yup. It's crap. People do it in WY too. They buy points for several family members and put in for themselves with one other person yearly, pay for two tags, and hunt every year and eat the 2nd tag.
It seems underhanded, but what is the alternative though Ike? Not allow people to party draw at all?
I like that system better than ones like CO where it discourages ever hunting with a buddy unless he started applying the same year as you.
The alternative is to get rid of point systems and go back to how it is currently in New Mexico, where everyone is equal and there is no incentive to put non-hunters in for drawings. Allow those with points now to keep them, but don't issue anymore points going forward.
I had an acquaintance from AZ call me when the Point Guard went in to affect. He was thrilled about it because he's building points for 7 family members (residents), who do not hunt, with the goal of using their points to draw elk tags. He now got to use each of their points twice. I think he said most of them have about 10-12 points right now. It's not right and Game and Fish need to get ahead of this. Don't think guides aren't doing the same thing to get clients drawn. I guarantee they are.
Trevor, I don't like CO's system either. People hunt together and should be allowed to do so. The solution is to not allow people to turn tags back in, make it so the entire group has to, or even disallow the person with the most points from turning the tag back in. I know people like the ability to turn tags back in, but it's creating a huge problem that is only going to make point creep that much worse.
In WY, the only thing that could be done would be for G&F to make it illegal. At least some people would be dissuaded if they knew they were breaking the law. There could be a button on the electronic application that was an affidavit stating that under penalty of law, each applicant fully intended to hunt the tag that was being applied for. I think some people would not want to use family and family would not want to be used as point mules if they knew what they were doing was illegal.
And a few random post-season phone calls to group applicants by F&G asking if everyone in the party hunted and/or intended to hunt, could put the fear of God into enough people to dent the practice.
As it stands, without a rule/law, there is nothing to dissuade people from doing this and the F&G depts are essentially turning a blind eye to the practice unless they forbid it.
Waiting periods for certain tags are also an option, but it does nothing for the person who uses other's points one time.
stickflicker; thats not going to happen. nowiser; how was the guy able to use each of their points twice so far. did u mean to say he used 2 family members points the last 2 years?
dmandoes, I worded that poorly. He was excited because going forward he will be able to use each relative's points twice.
u just blew my mind. ur acquaintance has pretty much guaranteed himself an archery rut elk tag for the rest of his life.
It really is a problem that most don’t realize is happening. The AZ Game and fish needs to disclose exactly how many tags are turned back in I bet the numbers would surprise you. I try to draw a mid tier tag, I have drawn in 2002,2006,2010,2015and hopefully in 2018. This is as a non resident,the group that I hunt with has certain resident members that draw every year using points from non hunting family members. This has been going on for a long time but was made twice as easy with the new system as the point mules can be recycled. The fact that 80% of the tags are allocated “random pool” camouflages what is really happening but if you watch it is pretty obvious that some people are luckier than most. The other problem is in a drought or other weather issue the number of tags returned will be high
