P&Y Members
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
'Ike' 27-Jan-18
Zackman 27-Jan-18
'Ike' (Phone) 27-Jan-18
Ned mobile 27-Jan-18
No Mercy 27-Jan-18
Trial153 27-Jan-18
Oryx35 27-Jan-18
Jaquomo 28-Jan-18
'Ike' (Phone) 28-Jan-18
W8N4RUT 28-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 28-Jan-18
Oryx35 28-Jan-18
Jaquomo 28-Jan-18
ground hunter 28-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 28-Jan-18
Treeline 28-Jan-18
Native Okie 28-Jan-18
Jaquomo 28-Jan-18
Bou'bound 28-Jan-18
Charlie Rehor 28-Jan-18
Jaquomo 28-Jan-18
Native Okie 28-Jan-18
ground hunter 28-Jan-18
Trial153 28-Jan-18
Buffalo1 28-Jan-18
JSW 29-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 29-Jan-18
Bou'bound 29-Jan-18
expeditiontraders 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
ground hunter 29-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
EmbryOklahoma 29-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 29-Jan-18
Franzen 29-Jan-18
Missouribreaks 29-Jan-18
Florida Mike 29-Jan-18
SBH 29-Jan-18
Jaquomo 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
jdee 29-Jan-18
Ambush 29-Jan-18
Matt Palmquist 29-Jan-18
LONEBULL 29-Jan-18
Ambush 29-Jan-18
6x6 bull 29-Jan-18
Franzen 29-Jan-18
W8N4RUT 29-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 29-Jan-18
Brotsky 29-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 29-Jan-18
Bigdan 29-Jan-18
Orion 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
Bigdan 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 29-Jan-18
Orion 29-Jan-18
kota-man 29-Jan-18
Genesis 29-Jan-18
TD 29-Jan-18
Zackman 29-Jan-18
Jaquomo 29-Jan-18
6x6 bull 29-Jan-18
Jaquomo 29-Jan-18
Antlers22 29-Jan-18
Buffalo1 29-Jan-18
EmbryOklahoma 29-Jan-18
SBH 29-Jan-18
Native Okie 29-Jan-18
HeadHunter® 30-Jan-18
TD 30-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 30-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 30-Jan-18
Mad Trapper 30-Jan-18
sticksender 30-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 30-Jan-18
Brotsky 30-Jan-18
Matt Palmquist 30-Jan-18
Ollie 30-Jan-18
mnbwhtr 30-Jan-18
Hamer's Ma 30-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 30-Jan-18
Trial153 30-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 30-Jan-18
Jaquomo 30-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 30-Jan-18
Brotsky 30-Jan-18
Franzen 30-Jan-18
Orion 30-Jan-18
GhostBird 30-Jan-18
'Ike' (Phone) 30-Jan-18
Doug C. 30-Jan-18
darralld 30-Jan-18
Jaquomo 30-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 30-Jan-18
Owl 30-Jan-18
Kurt 30-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 30-Jan-18
Jaquomo 30-Jan-18
Treeline 30-Jan-18
Karla 30-Jan-18
Jaquomo 30-Jan-18
mnbwhtr 30-Jan-18
wildlifex 30-Jan-18
Predeter 30-Jan-18
lawdy 30-Jan-18
StickFlicker 30-Jan-18
Doug C. 30-Jan-18
Zackman 30-Jan-18
Native Okie 30-Jan-18
loesshillsarcher 31-Jan-18
INDBowhunter2 31-Jan-18
No Mercy 31-Jan-18
Trial153 31-Jan-18
Deone H 31-Jan-18
darralld 31-Jan-18
jdee 31-Jan-18
darralld 31-Jan-18
mnbwhtr 31-Jan-18
Shrewski 31-Jan-18
Shrewski 31-Jan-18
Shrewski 31-Jan-18
Shrewski 31-Jan-18
Ambush 31-Jan-18
Starfire 31-Jan-18
HeadHunter® 31-Jan-18
Trial153 31-Jan-18
No Mercy 31-Jan-18
Ramhunter 31-Jan-18
Jaquomo 31-Jan-18
LONEBULL 31-Jan-18
Brotsky 31-Jan-18
HeadHunter® 31-Jan-18
Ramhunter 31-Jan-18
Buffalo1 31-Jan-18
Jaquomo 31-Jan-18
Buffalo1 01-Feb-18
rooselk 01-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 01-Feb-18
rooselk 01-Feb-18
Buffalo1 01-Feb-18
Jaquomo 01-Feb-18
Jaquomo 01-Feb-18
Bou'bound 02-Feb-18
jstephens61 02-Feb-18
Charlie Rehor 02-Feb-18
rooselk 02-Feb-18
Trial153 02-Feb-18
GhostBird 02-Feb-18
Rut Nut 02-Feb-18
Franzen 02-Feb-18
Jaquomo 02-Feb-18
Charlie Rehor 02-Feb-18
Owl 02-Feb-18
rooselk 02-Feb-18
Jaquomo 02-Feb-18
Ambush 02-Feb-18
Matt Palmquist 02-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 02-Feb-18
keepemsharp 02-Feb-18
Owl 02-Feb-18
Owl 02-Feb-18
Owl 02-Feb-18
Buffalo1 02-Feb-18
Ambush 02-Feb-18
bentshaft 02-Feb-18
Doug C. 03-Feb-18
Buffalo1 03-Feb-18
GhostBird 03-Feb-18
Buffalo1 03-Feb-18
Glunt@work 03-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 03-Feb-18
Jaquomo 03-Feb-18
JSW 03-Feb-18
Dotman 04-Feb-18
Dotman 04-Feb-18
Glunt@work 04-Feb-18
Owl 04-Feb-18
jstephens61 04-Feb-18
Franzen 04-Feb-18
Bou'bound 04-Feb-18
jstephens61 04-Feb-18
Missouribreaks 04-Feb-18
Franzen 04-Feb-18
Glunker 04-Feb-18
Missouribreaks 04-Feb-18
Dotman 04-Feb-18
Trial153 04-Feb-18
Buffalo1 04-Feb-18
wildlifex 05-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 05-Feb-18
Mad Trapper 05-Feb-18
TD 06-Feb-18
Mark Watkins 06-Feb-18
Shug 06-Feb-18
Shug 06-Feb-18
Trial153 06-Feb-18
Eric Vaillancourt 06-Feb-18
Boreal 06-Feb-18
Dotman 06-Feb-18
Dotman 06-Feb-18
Eric Vaillancourt 07-Feb-18
Biker 07-Feb-18
Missouribreaks 07-Feb-18
otcWill 07-Feb-18
SBH 07-Feb-18
pav 07-Feb-18
Eric Vaillancourt 07-Feb-18
Ollie 07-Feb-18
Biker 07-Feb-18
Ambush 07-Feb-18
Boreal 07-Feb-18
Dotman 07-Feb-18
hogthief 07-Feb-18
Trial153 07-Feb-18
Charlie Rehor 07-Feb-18
Dotman 07-Feb-18
Rock 07-Feb-18
loesshillsarcher 07-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 07-Feb-18
Ollie 07-Feb-18
Matt Palmquist 07-Feb-18
MuleyBum 10-Feb-18
Jaquomo 10-Feb-18
Trial153 10-Feb-18
Buffalo1 10-Feb-18
Trial153 10-Feb-18
JSW 10-Feb-18
MuleyBum 10-Feb-18
Jaquomo 10-Feb-18
MuleyBum 10-Feb-18
JSW 10-Feb-18
Dotman 10-Feb-18
MuleyBum 11-Feb-18
moon 11-Feb-18
Treeline 11-Feb-18
Kurt 11-Feb-18
Jaquomo 11-Feb-18
Trial153 11-Feb-18
Trial153 11-Feb-18
Trial153 11-Feb-18
Boreal 11-Feb-18
Jaquomo 11-Feb-18
MuleyBum 11-Feb-18
JSW 11-Feb-18
Jaquomo 11-Feb-18
MuleyBum 11-Feb-18
Bill Obeid 11-Feb-18
Jaquomo 11-Feb-18
MuleyBum 11-Feb-18
Buffalo1 11-Feb-18
Ambush 11-Feb-18
JSW 11-Feb-18
JSW 11-Feb-18
Treeline 11-Feb-18
Ned mobile 11-Feb-18
Bigdan 11-Feb-18
Ned mobile 11-Feb-18
MuleyBum 11-Feb-18
Jaquomo 11-Feb-18
TD 11-Feb-18
MuleyBum 12-Feb-18
pav 12-Feb-18
jstephens61 12-Feb-18
deerhaven 12-Feb-18
No Mercy 12-Feb-18
EmbryOklahoma 12-Feb-18
MuleyBum 12-Feb-18
Brotsky 12-Feb-18
MuleyBum 12-Feb-18
Bill Obeid 12-Feb-18
Jaquomo 12-Feb-18
Jaquomo 12-Feb-18
buzz mc 12-Feb-18
jdee 12-Feb-18
bigeasygator 12-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 12-Feb-18
TD 13-Feb-18
bigeasygator 13-Feb-18
Missouribreaks 13-Feb-18
SBH 22-Feb-18
EmbryOklahoma 22-Feb-18
Trial153 22-Feb-18
otcWill 22-Feb-18
Matt Palmquist 22-Feb-18
Mark Watkins 22-Feb-18
Jim D 23-Feb-18
StickFlicker 02-Mar-18
Eric Vaillancourt 02-Mar-18
ground hunter 02-Mar-18
MuleyBum 05-Mar-18
Kurt 05-Mar-18
Jaquomo 05-Mar-18
Boreal 05-Mar-18
From: 'Ike'
27-Jan-18
Who's your pick for 2nd VP, don't recognize either of them....?

From: Zackman
27-Jan-18
I personally like Ricky. He has been very involved for years

27-Jan-18
Thanks Zack...

27-Jan-18
Ricky

From: No Mercy
27-Jan-18
Ricky

From: Trial153
27-Jan-18
I was hoping for more information via the website. Alas the site is still in 2001 mode. guess i am rereading the ballots that came in the mail

From: Oryx35
27-Jan-18
Bump. I've read Ricky's articles the last couple of years, but had a similar question.

From: Jaquomo
28-Jan-18
I just wrote a lengthy email to one of the candidates running for president, who is clearly WAY out of touch. Great man and great contributor to the club, but who doesn't get it. I told him he was still envisioning a 1960's club in the 21st century, dreaming of days long gone. He essentially agreed with my assessment in his polite reply.

I'm a regular member so don't vote for 2nd VP, but I would urge everyone to consider forward-thinking candidates rather than well-meaning gentlemen who want to turn back the clock to bygone days that aren't coming back.

28-Jan-18
Good point Lou...

From: W8N4RUT
28-Jan-18
Agree Lou.

Scott

28-Jan-18
What are the values for a forward thinking club, one that can grow in membership over the next 20 years? Any thoughts?

From: Oryx35
28-Jan-18
Lou, thanks for the input. You confirmed my suspicion with one 2nd VP's tie to a candidate for President.

From: Jaquomo
28-Jan-18
I don't believe it's possible for the club to grow membership over the next 20 years, even with inclusion of crossbows (I know that's where you're heading, MB. You need to work on your nuance skills a bit..)

When 25% of hunters drop out, and with the average age of P&Y members now approaching 50, and considering millennials are not "joiners", the club will be lucky to maintain current levels. Same for B&C and SCI.

I predict that those three clubs will eventually merge and have separate records categories. That's the only realistic path for survival, considering the realities and demographic trends.

Meantime, as I've advised candidates I've corresponded with, the club needs to recruit officers or hire staff who understand communications technology, are in touch with millennial values and habits, and can develop ways to show real value to address the reasons for the membership churn. The fact that candidates are still sending out paper letters to all members via snail mail, each with .47 postage, in this era of instant virtual communication, illustrates just how far removed the club is from reality. Thousands of dollars wasted on 19th century technology...

28-Jan-18
jaquomo =1

28-Jan-18
I do not disagree, no solitary path forward. Advanced technology has robbed bowhunting and the P&Y Club of culture, and members.

From: Treeline
28-Jan-18
Jaquomo +1

From: Native Okie
28-Jan-18
Jaq +1. You either evolve or become extinct. Sad to say but I feel the club keeps creeping towards the latter.

From: Jaquomo
28-Jan-18
The changes in demographics and instant gratification expectations of younger bowhunters is what's robbing the club of members. The conventions are like a 50th high school reunion. Hunting technology has nothing to do with it because millennial hunters readily adopt technology. Resistance to technology has hurt the club over the years. Social media technology and fantastic resources like the Bowsite (free) are major contributors to lack of interest in paying for a club that offers...what? There is limited value to millennials besides getting a name in the book. They can pay to get their name listed in small print in a book published every few years that nobody reads, or they can post the animal on FB and Instagram and instantly have thousands of views and likes, and some short-term notoriety - for free.

Otherwise, what value does it provide? Make a special trip to the spithole backwater village of Chatfield to visit the museum? Whenever I've been there it has been empty. There is huge turnover after two years (following entry of an animal), and club officers can't figure out why? Hello...

I often wonder if my $150 annual dues would be better spent by giving directly to organizations like RMEF, WSF, etc..

From: Bou'bound
28-Jan-18
Finally a realist surfaces.

28-Jan-18

Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Here you go Lou! Glad you are a Member! Every little bit helps promote current and future Bow Hunting.

From: Jaquomo
28-Jan-18
No doubt, Charlie, which is why I support the club and was proud to be voted in as a Regular member so I could pay 5x annual dues. Its why I'm working with them right now to be in included in my will.

But show that list to anyone under about 35 years old and they'll shrug and check their phone for Instagram, FB, or texts from friends. That's the problem. Wonderful organization that isn't relevant to the younger folks who aren't joining. And the $60,000 budget for grants is pretty weak for as much as P&Y purports to do. For comparison, the little local fishing program of which I'm president, which promotes kids fishing and wounded veterans fishing, has an annual revenue/budget of around $85,000.

I'm sorry if my rant offends some. But some of the letters I'm getting from candidates now have made me question the relevance and future of the club. As I told a couple of them with whom I've corresponded, I would get involved but I am already on three boards and two other volunteer organizations, none of which have ugly internal infighting, and which have direct, demonstrable results.

From: Native Okie
28-Jan-18
I don’t think any one member (nor anyone on this thread) not proud of support and donations the club gives. You can hang your hat on past accomplishments, but if your not evolving with technology and general industry you will be left behind from a recruitment standpoint, period. Private companies , non-profits, etc. doesn’t matter. I’ve had the chance in my career to take what would appear to be better jobs (pay, benefits, etc). Problem is those opportunities would have been like going back in time from an evolution standpoint which make them far less attractive. I see member recruitment for PNY no different.

28-Jan-18
I will say one thing, they will host another huge rendezvous archery shoot in Wisconsin again this June,,,, last years it was packed, and mostly with kids and young adults,,,, there is a place, for the club, to sign up members etc,,,,,, its a great shoot, its on my calendar

From: Trial153
28-Jan-18
I agree Lou. My perspective is coming from being a younger member I often struggle with a connection to the club. I am pretty seasoned and lucky to bowhunt more then probably 90% of today’s bowhunters. If I struggle with the clubs relevance to my own bowhunting then I can’t imange how little connection it holds to the average bowhunter that isn’t a member.

From: Buffalo1
28-Jan-18
P&Y had a booth at the DSC Convention. I visited the booth a couple of times and worked in the booth a couple of hrs on Saturday AM. Many people visited the booth and several people joined. I saw much positive. The greatest thing needed is members to help staff booth in these types of events. It's a mighty long day for 1 or 2 people to work a booth a full day with limited breaks.

If Jim Willem is lurking this thread, he may want to comment as to P&Y booth activity and results at DSC.

From: JSW
29-Jan-18
Lurking? How about monitoring. P&Y uses twitter, facebook and instagram to inform and promote bowhunting on a daily basis. We can always do better and we are always looking for ways to connect. WSF, REMF and MDF are all very successful today because they have a specific, almost singular cause that individual hunters can wrap their minds around. Don't forget that P&Y also has a singular cause, BOWHUNTING. If you don't support the only national organization defending and protecting bowhunting, who will? Yes, we could be more effective but we are working on some very exciting projects that will result in more members and more influence. We are gaining momentum and what we need most is support from all serious bowhunters. I understand that there have been issues in the past that caused people to turn away from the Club but that is behind us. Now, more than ever, we need all bowhunters to unite and get behind the only national organization who's main goal is to ensure the future of bowhunting. If we don't do it, who will?

29-Jan-18
P&Y is a club. It's a group of like-minded folks who come together due to a common passion. It is the premier bowhunting club in the world. If you're passionate about bowhunting, you can be a Club member or you can choose not to. Either way, the Club is a group of passionate bowhunters whose focus is bowhunting big game animals in North America.

We're not going to change the world. There are groups like RMEF, another group I'm a member of, that take dollars with the express purpose of putting them to use for elk habitat. That's not why the P&Y Club was formed and it's not its purpose. The P&Y Club was formed to bring passionate bowhunters together and promote bowhunting in North America, which is what P&Y has been doing since it's inception. It's a club, not a foundation.

As far as the millennials, you old guys need to stop worrying about them. When you're all dead, we'll bring the millennials in just as us Gen X guys have been brought in and believe me, we'll have a lot more leeway to do it too! The millennials will be different people once they grow up and hit 40. And BTW, the youngest Fred Bear Society inductee ever is not from the greatest generation, not a Baby Boomer, he's not from Gen X, he's a Millennial. So so much for them being disconnected from the Club.

Lou makes a lot of good points as far as moving the Club into the 21st century. This will all happen.

As far as the future of the Club, I don't share the gloom and doom. As long as there is freedom in America and Canada, there will be hunting. As long as there are wild lands where wild animals roam, there will be men and women chasing them with stick and string. And as long as there's bowhunting, there will be a P&Y Club.

From: Bou'bound
29-Jan-18
What is the current membership count.

29-Jan-18
I don’t care a bit about the record book. Personally, I believe it does more harm than good.

I agree mostly with Lou's comments.

I believe the largest issue currently is a fractured board. We don’t have any chance of moving Bowhunting forward until we can unite behind leadership. Everyone speaks of unity but there doesn’t appear to be any room for compromise.

I will continue to support the club and recruit new members. I believe it would be relatively easy to double our membership if we united behind this purpose. All we have to do is recruit one new member each.

If you PM me I will pay for 10 new members to join as a first step.

Please signup one member each and then vote. It is our club.

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
Yes let’s look at member count vs total bowhunters. Should give us an idea of where we stand.

29-Jan-18
It is a great organization, but what I see is a separation, from the average joe, to the elite, at least that is what some people think of them selves,,,, I really do, its like the PBS, and the lists go on and on,,,,,,,, an organization can do what it wants, but when it loses the average person, it looses effectiveness,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It does great things for conservation, and that is what it should be,,,,, we have to get back to remembering, the books are for honoring the animal, not the hunter,,,,,,,

I like all groups that are for habitat improvement, conservation, and keeping public land public,,,,,,,,,,

I dislike the many groups who behind close doors, argue about what weapon was used, the pettiness of traditional shooters vs compound shooters,,, I never will understand that

29-Jan-18
I would like to vote for Jim but cannot because of my lower membership classification. Cannot attend some meetings even. Ugh.

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
Members 4,949 Lifetime General Members 539 Regular Members 198 Senior Members 359 Youth Members 152 Supporting Members 44

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
^ this is as of 2017 taken from the members section of the website. If anyone of us thinks the pope and young club has any relevance on a national scale amount bowhunters they are delusional.

We are looking at 6k members ....how many bowhunters are in North America? we don’t even need the real number, because it doesn’t matter. Six thound members probably represents a fraction of 1 percent. If P&Y is the face of bowhunting then we need to take a long hard look at ourselves in the mirror, because we obviously aren’t effectly at getting our message out. We have little to no commonality with the average bowhunter.

29-Jan-18
One of the main questions that always comes up in conversation while hanging out during conventions is, how do we recruit more members? Wish I had the answers. Seems I hear we are making waves towards recruitment and then flatline. Hmmm?

My state organization lost my interest because there was a lack of leadership. Plus it was leaning towards traditional bow elitism. I don't care for that and will not give my money to an organization that even sniffs of elitism.

I will openly admit that the conventions are priced a bit rich for my liking. My wife and I have to pick and choose between which banquets/dinners we attend and the amount of nights we stay. I do love the camaraderie and the friends I've met through P&Y. I'll support it as long as it doesn't dip into my families way of life.

Again... I think recruitment is the biggest hurdle and always struggle with this. By the way...most people these days love the convenience of paying with a card online. Can this be reinstated?

29-Jan-18
Vertical bow use and interest is on the decline in many states. P&Y only accepts entries for vertical bow use. It does not take a rocket scientist to see their future is in jeopardy.

One question, if P&Y entry is honoring the animal and NOT the hunter, why does the choice of archery weapon even matter? The dead animal could care less? As some may ask "what difference does it make ? "

From: Franzen
29-Jan-18
Remember the P&Y Club is also about ethical hunting. Unfortunately, that eliminates a large percentage of the "common" bowhunter from my experience. Sure, we've all made mistakes somewhere along the way, but a big part of having ethics is recognizing mistakes and learning to do better.

29-Jan-18
Excellent point Franzen.

From: Florida Mike
29-Jan-18
Lou makes some valid and good points. The P&Y club has a very archaic member structure that disenfranchises many. ( Members, Lifetime General Members, Regular Members, Senior Members, Youth Members, Supporting Members) I know that's the way we've always done it but times change.... The club must change or it will fall further down the abyss of irrelevance. FM

From: SBH
29-Jan-18
Interesting thread. I have been considering joining the pope and young club based on feeling it was "the right thing to do". I am 36 years old, not a millennial but also not in the over 50 class. About 4 years back I joined our local bow hunters association for the same reason. I was somewhat recruited by an older mentor who has helped me along the way. I began attending the convention every year and am getting a little more involved each year. I did not see the value of it at first and NONE of my hunting buddies who are my age are members of either groups. I now see a HUGE value in our local association and have been working hard to recruit my buddies, unsuccessfully albeit. I personally believe lack of membership (locally and it sounds like in py) is due in part to two reasons 1. divisive issues 2. Intitled mentality of my generation and the one behind it. We have no clue of the hard work and effort that a few put in years ago on our behalf to save our seasons and make them what they are. NO CLUE. NO appreciation. We just hop in and enjoy the results without realizing they are not a right and can be taken from us. My generation does not know and neither did I, what the association has done for bowhunting in the past and doing for it's future. There will always be issues we don't agree on but I believe we owe it to our past and our future to look past those and be part of the solution. My generation seems to be where the "gap" is between the 50 year old group and the under 30s. We need to step up and be involved rather then just take advantage of what was done and not pass it on. Sorry if this is off topic, just got me thinking seeing all the comments about the division in members of Pope and Young club as it sounds a lot like local associations.

From: Jaquomo
29-Jan-18
I will add that I fully supported the "changing of the guard" in the last couple of elections. I believe Jim and others have some great ideas and are pointing the club in the right direction. This angered some of the old timers who resist change. Normal in any evolving organization. Change doesn't come overnight and we've seen some movement in a positive direction. Getting the museum moved someplace where hunters can actually visit it, immerse themselves in bowhunting history and see how important the club is, will only help recruitment of new members.

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
Franz point is a perfect illustration of the problem we have with our message and it’s delivery. A potential member reads his post and their take away is the reason they haven’t joined is their not interested in ethical bowhunting..at best at worst they feel like he questions their ethics. Show me how this helps our cause. It doesn’t.

From: jdee
29-Jan-18
Most young average bow hunters have never heard of the P&Y club. You can tell your kids about it but where is any other young hunter going to find any thing about the club ? I know it comes up here but this is about the only place I ever see anything about P&Y . No TV show, no sponsorship or promoting that I have ever seen on any of the hunting channels that a lot of young guys watch. I don’t even remember anything in any bowshops. The RMEF wears my mailbox out .....never have received a single thing from P&Y. I wish the P&Y club all the best. I’m not a member, I arrow some pretty nice critters but have only measured one . I don’t care what it scores, I figure if I shot it it’s a trophy. Maybe they think if they stay quite they won’t ever have to change ???

From: Ambush
29-Jan-18
Quote Missouribreaks: "One question, if P&Y entry is honoring the animal and NOT the hunter,.....".

I'll take a stab at that from a personal perspective. It is about honoring the animal. BUT it is also about honoring the hunters skills, dedication or maybe even luck in taking that animal. And I'm good with that. Actually I'm happy about that!! Because that means we have not lost that connection to our distant fore-bearers that had to succeed or die along with their families and villages. Hunting with success was vital and was celebrated. And the hunter was celebrated!

With their bellies full of meat they would watch and listen as the one being honored would take a burning stick from the roasting fire and start to draw out the hunt on the stone wall. The bigger the pile of meat the more the accolades. Trophy hunting!!

Move ahead and you have the same scenes played out on tepee coverings. Did Ishi or his family paint the celebration on stone walls. Did they publicly display the results of their personal success on their clothing.

Can you imagine the MVP at the Superbowl being announced with no face and no name?!

Sorry, but recognition is hardwired into us. It pushes us to be better. Now, you can get all philosophical and introspective and claim to be hunting for only yourself out of the pure joy of it and there can be truth to it. But then why are you on here? Even posting on this thread demonstrates a desire to have your opinion (and therefore self) recognized.

I have no problem recognizing people for their accomplishments. The detractors are often those that have not accomplished much to be recognized for. They have the "everybody should get a ribbon" mindset. Celebrating mediocrity.

Que the indignation.

29-Jan-18
Back to the OP's original question. I feel Ricky has done a good job in this capacity and he will get my support. He is a hard working man that seemed to have his hand in many facets of the last convention, and the way I understand it did a the last rendezvous as well. No disrespect to Julie as I am sure she could do a good job as well and anyone that steps up to run for board positions should be commended in my opinion.

Some great discussion on the challenges P&Y faces moving forward.

Matt

From: LONEBULL
29-Jan-18
I've looked into joining in the past and really dislike the different member levels so I quit right there. Hope that changes someday.

From: Ambush
29-Jan-18
I think the membership levels are a check point to keep the org from being hijacked by a large influx of new members, particularly with an agenda.

You know, to keep the membership from doing what the membership wants. That has pitfalls and plus’s.

The perfect government is a wise and compassionate dictator. Cheap, efficient and fair, benefiting everyone.

From: 6x6 bull
29-Jan-18
When I got my letter I asked myself the same question. At first I thought I just wouldn't vote because I didn't know either candidate, but then I thought why not go to their facebook account and try to get a better view which might represent P&Y better. After a little snooping I saw one candidate that in my mind that has been a lifelong archer that has a sincere respect for the sport and another that just might have an axe to grind with the club!

From: Franzen
29-Jan-18
Trial, I disagree with your post. Those with ethics will not have any reason to defend themselves and would know they are welcome with the Club. If anyone is questioning their own ethics then maybe that is a bigger problem. Ethics is part of the Club foundation (or supposed to be); if that goes away, I for one don't want to be a part. Some people seem to lose sight and feel the Club should grow, regardless of the cost. Personally, I'm all for growth, as long as the promotion and general adherence to ethical hunting is maintained.

From: W8N4RUT
29-Jan-18
seems like many are looking for an excuse not to join. No one will ever agree 100% with an organizations rules, etc but this one really is about bowhunting and bowhunters! the membership fees seem to make it a no-brainer. its a simple one to join and one to be proud of.

Scott

29-Jan-18
That's right. Anyone who's got up in a tree a plugged the first white tail that came along, doesn't poach, and has a few dollars can join. And all the sudden their vote is the same as someone who's been in the Club for 30 years and has shown through their hunting to be an avid bowhunter? Naw, I support the the current structure, at least in retaining voting rights. I think people look into it too much. It's not like the regular members are looking down on anyone - it doesn't work like that. When you're walking around at the conference, it's just a bunch of people talking about bowhunting. It's not like you have regular and senior members sitting in a corner talking all hush-hush.

And I'd bet that if we could get more people to come to the biannual conferences, we'd have a ton more members. If you're a fence sitter about joining, come to a conference and see for yourself.

From: Brotsky
29-Jan-18
I've been a member and will continue to be a member as long as I'm able. My kids are youth members and I'll continue to pay for their memberships as long as they bowhunt. Here's where the club goes wrong IMO based upon recruiting new, younger members:

1. The club is viewed by far too many as the record keeping organization only. If people aren't interested in trophies or keeping score they dismiss the club right off the bat. The club needs to rebrand itself as the defender and spokesmen of ethical fair chase archery hunting and move away from being seen as solely a record keeping entity.

2. The membership structure is archaic and outdated. The club should be driven by a board which is elected by the membership. No presidents and vice presidents, etc. A board of accomplished and well spoken bowhunters selected by their peers.

3. The club has a terrible social media presence. Me and the same other 50 guys are the only ones sharing/liking/etc their posts. You have people on instagram and other platforms that are reaching 100's of thousands. We need to modernize and promote the club more vigorously through social media channels to spark interest in the younger hunters.

I could come up with a few more but this is a good start. We all want what is best for bowhunting and the PY Club is ultimately good for bowhunting. We just need to keep promoting it and start heading in the right direction.

29-Jan-18
A bowhunter and club member that has hunted 30 years for whitetails only and has more intellect than most cannot vote for anything but Second Vice President. So I don't agree with you Ike. And then said bowhunter has to get news of club doings second hand mostly due to be not being included in any important matters so to speak. What is said and what is actually going on internally is being kept from the "minority" members. I don't like this at all. It is not that upper tiered members are looking down on lower tiered members. As you mentioned, this rarely occurs.

From: Bigdan
29-Jan-18
I'm a senior member and I like the changes in the club. The club has changed a lot sense the membership change there use to be 100 member regular limit. It took twenty years to move into the regular membership ranks . Some one had to die before a new guy could come in. Then they made the senior membership with no limit on senior members Then they changed and put a 200 regular membership max. When the old guard was voted out they made in unlimited so there has been a change in the membership. When I die I will be a P&Y Member its a group of Bowhunters

From: Orion
29-Jan-18
Brotsky nailed it. Is there not a board that oversees financials and other dealings associated with a non-profit?

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
Exactly ^^ Brotsky

Without a doubt the club needs to find a way to build on the commonality of as many bowhunters as possible. The question is how do we bring more bowhunters Into the fold and then how to we retain them? Bringing new members in will only happen if bowhunter see value in membership, that’s the first step. They have to value the membership more the the money it takes to join. After that first step then the hard part ensues. we need to foster an sense of belonging, ownership and personal identification as club member. They Will only stay a member if they feel like a member. The current membership structure doesn’t accomplish that. A perfect illustration is the gap between 200 reg members an 5000 general members. How many of those general members are qualified to be regular members under the current rules structure? I am sure many. And why haven’t they taken the time and effort to become regular members, simply because they don’t value their membership more then the time an effort it take to become a regular member. We need to look at this as a club failure and own up to it. Only then can we address it when can find solutions and grow.

From: Bigdan
29-Jan-18
Trial 153 there is no limit of 200 any more its unlimited

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
Dan I understand that, however you still don’t see general members beating down the doors to become regular member. The question is why? Till we address that we aren’t moving forward.

29-Jan-18
Can buy a lifetime member general membership. If you advance that is thrown out and you pay more per year. This is true if you just pay annually also. Most of the people that have done it don't mind I would imagine. Lots probably scratch their head and think WTF. No need to do that is their reasoning most likely.

From: Orion
29-Jan-18
The pope and young instagram page has 6100 followers. There are "fake" hunters that have 100k plus. They are definitely not reaching the masses especially on the social media platform. They do need to be more involved than just the record book. Heck Jim Willems lives not two hours from me, yet hardly any schools in our area have the archery for schools program they constantly brag about.

From: kota-man
29-Jan-18
I bought the Lifetime General Membership before realizing that if I wanted to advance, it would do me no good. So...I just choose not to advance.

Ned...Did you ever leave your room at GSCO? ;)

From: Genesis
29-Jan-18
PY moves slow.....and that's a good thing.Associate Member for 16 years.

From: TD
29-Jan-18
Has there ever been a time when P&Y members were the majority of bowhunters? Like Ike said, it's a club, not a foundation. It's mission is to promote bowhunting. They support conservation and wildlife programs but that is not their mission. The focus is bowhunters. Specifically passionate and dedicated bowhunters. I'm not sure there is much to offer the general "bowhunter" who hunts with a bow only a few days a year, but to possibly expand his bowhunting horizons. It has a strong social and networking aspect to it. Those hunters likely make up 80% or more or the total "bowhuunters" in those numbers above. Of those (using the 80/20 rule) say 20% are passionate about the sport. (IMO closer to 10%) So instead of 1 of a 100, it's honestly closer to 1 in 20 or one in 10 are members. That's not "elitist" it's simply reality.

The general population likely only join to enter an animal. There is that aspect, the draw to enter your name in the record book. Nothing wrong with that. It's not a bad recruitment tool as those folks would not likely even consider being a member otherwise. Hopefully once exposed they can be retained. Otherwise the focus on recruitment likely should be on that 10-20% of the dedicated and passionate that will join, stay and hopefully become active.

Alot of good ideas being floated around here. Change is needed in any healthy org, and can be slow. But it is changing, adapting. When I went to the AZ convention one of the big changes was expanding the "outfitter" section to include other archery vendors. Nearly to a member I heard positive comments to that expansion. Those are the kinds of things that make the club stronger, get some excitement generated. Other changes as well seem to be moving in the right direction.

I don't agree with some of the gloom and doom, not at all. The convention I went to was literally to capacity and the excitement and attitudes were very positive, I don't recall much if any gloom or doom. WRT the demographics..... I also don't recall being to many conventions that weren't what you might call an older crowd. They tend to have more time and able to afford the expenses better. That's not an indicator of decline..... it again is simply reality.

From: Zackman
29-Jan-18
There are many reasons to be negative when it comes to any organization. I have enough negativity in my professional life that I try to focus on only the positives when it comes to things like P&Y. Do I wish we were more like Wild Sheep? Of course I do. However, we never will be because of the records program—which I find to be extremely important. But it does limit us with the masses because of the stigma of maintaining a records program.

I will continue to help in any way I can because I find P&Y to be the most important bowhunting organization in NA. And this is coming from someone that will have to wait longer to advance from regular to senior member than anyone in the recent history. For any faults, P&Y is very important.

As I wrote in an article for The Ethic, “Not every Bowhunter is for Pope & Young, but Pope & Young is for every Bowhunter.”

From: Jaquomo
29-Jan-18
TD, you're right about older people having the time and means to attend conventions. But P&Y's own data shows that the age of the average member is growing older at a relatively alarming rate.

Just like the Game and Fish departments on a national scale, I don't have an answer about how to recruit younger folks into the fold. Nothing they've tried has worked. They openly admit that. But while the P&Y club is a great "club", There are some steps that could be taken to be more welcoming to younger folks. For instance, I don't know of any organization that has open elections which only allows a small fraction of the members to vote, and those members are mostly going to be "old timers" by virtue of the regular and senior membership rules. Inclusion vs. exclusion. An "Associate member" is a "member", but not really.

On the flip-side, that structure ensures that only SERIOUS members are allowed to vote, not the Johnny-Come-Lately who just entered a whitetail and will drop out after the second year, as is too common now. I can say that as an Associate Member I felt like I was on the outside looking in. Voting privilege was the primary reason why I became a Regular Member (following the nasty internal strife of the past few years), and we pay a premium for that privilege.

The concern I expressed in my post was referencing some long-time influential members and candidates for office who openly want to turn back the clock, and in doing so will alienate those whom we need to recruit.

From: 6x6 bull
29-Jan-18
Could someone please explain to myself being a fairly new member what it takes to climb the ladder from general member to regular member to senior member? Are there any other levels I have left out, handshakes, or songs I need to learn before I can move up?

From: Jaquomo
29-Jan-18
6x6, one requirement to be put on the "waiting list" is to send a bottle of good single malt Scotch to the first regular member who requests it. So my favorite is the Glendronach, and I'll make sure you get on the list.

From: Antlers22
29-Jan-18
To move up to regular; 1: Applicant must've taken with a bow and arrow under rules of Fairchase at least one animal of three of the various species of North American big game. one of these animals must qualify for the minimum requirements for a trophy class animal and must be entered in the pope and young records 2: applicant must have been a general member in good standings for a period of at least 10 consecutive years 3: an applicant will be required to attend at least one convention or have strong club participation as determined by the membership committee and chair and be demonstrate participation in two of the following categories club involvement state and local bowhunting organizations mentoring conservation activities 4: applicant must in addition demonstrate to the satisfaction of the board that he or she possesses those characteristics of a good sportsmanship and character consistent with the mission and purpose of the club 5: applicant shall upon request of the club provide any and all documentation to substantiate said application. To advance to senior membership 1: has been a regular member for at least eight years and has taken with a bow and arrow under the rules of Fairchase at least one animal of each of four of the various species of North American big game three of these animals must qualify for the minimum requirements for a trophy class animal and must be entered into the records 2: must have attended at least two biennial conventions 3: must demonstrate strong club involvement as determined by the board 4: must demonstrate participation in two of the following categories state local bowhunting organizations mentoring conservation activities. Always things can be found on the website in the membership area under the bylaws

From: Buffalo1
29-Jan-18
I have been a member of P&Y for 26 years. I was a member of P&Y before I ever had an animal that “made the book and my name was beside it”. I joined P&Y because I loved bowhunting and wanted to be a member of an organization that supported bowhunting. I supported the values and mission of the organization. I still do today.

I have attended 6 conventions, made contributions to the trust fund, made donations to the museum and have donated time at some of the events. I have given my time and money because I am passionate about bowhunting. When I attended my first convention and went to my first member meeting I was “an associate” member. It that Associate meeting room was Pete Shepley, Michelle Eicher and Larry D. Jones. When I looked at these bow hunters/bow huntress and knew of all the animals they had taken with a bow and the wealth of bowhunting experience that had, I knew then that that the “echelon level” membership was not for me. To celebrate my 25th year of membership I became a Life General Member.

Membership ranking in a hunting organization to me is BS.! I did not join a bowhunting organization to compare notches on my bow limbs with another bowhunter bow limbs. I know some Regular members and Senior members who have absolutely done nothing for the organization. They met their “kill” requirement of 1 record animal/3 kills or 3 record animals/5 kills and put some membership time in gained passage to Regular or Senior membership, respectively.

With my length of time of membership, I know and have known many of the current and present officers, Senior members and Regular members and I have never been knowingly be looked down on and sneered because of my membership level. If I were, I have enough savvy to handle the situation and would not hesitate “explaining how a cow eats cabbage” with that individual(s).

I agree with others that I have to get “the scuttle butt” of what’s happening in P&Y via second hand or gossip instead of direct through club news or meeting . At the last convention in St. Louis, the Regular and Senior membership got updates on what was going on with the club organization and the prior elections. I guess the leadership didn’t think the General (old Associate Member) “couldn’t handle truth” as they were denied the information that was shared in the Regular/Senior meeting.

Interestingly, the General membership makes up the bulk of the membership. I understand about having vested interest, this can and has become a sticking point and somewhat of an obstacle for many. I can see how a potential member could be turned off with possible never being able to vote for leadership, especially when being raised in a democratic society. The P&Y election system makes the Electoral College for president of the United States look appealing.

I could go “maybe” go along with a minimum of 5 yr. membership requirement before being able to vote for officers such as president or vice president or an officer to show a commitment to the organization, but because of an “echelon membership levels” if a person elects to never pursue Regular membership, he/she will never have the opportunity. I for one am not willing to “pay” for that privilege via Regular member status to vote for leadership.

When I was in college I was in a fraternity. When I joined the fraternity, I understood that I would have to serve time as a “pledge” but when I fulfilled the membership requirements I became an “active.” At that point my vote as a “new active” member had the same value and weight as an active who had more “active time” than me. I was an active member! Thankfully the P&Y leadership wised up to limiting Regular and Senior membership limitations, hopefully in time the leadership will wise up to the ridiculous “echelon level” voting privileges system.

I am passionate about hunting, conservation and the right to bear arms. I hold life memberships in the MS Bowhunters Association, Dallas Safari Club and the National Rifle Association. There are no “echelon levels” to vote for leadership. I am a member of SCI and there are no “echelon levels” to vote for membership. I am working toward life membership in that organization, not because of voting privileges, but for what the organization stands for and does for hunters and wildlife conservation.

I understand about the cost of attending conventions that has been mentioned. A young member and especially one with a family, the related convention costs and time away from work could be prohibited. I can also remember when I was young; the cost of a convention vs. the cost of going on a hunt was a no-brainer, I could care less about a convention- I was going hunting. Now that I am retired, my biggest decision is how many days do I go before the convention starts and where do I travel to after the convention on vacation before returning home. Financial and family matters can change over time.

Hopefully, the leadership will share information with all of the members, not just a select few. I honestly think the General members, who comprise the bulk of the membership, can “handle the truth.” This measure would greatly improve leadership image, allow for transparency within the organization, which will in turn improve trust and dispel gossip and laundering of organization problems on social media outlets.

I concur that every communication mechanism available should be used with communications for all aged members and potential members.

I agree with Bigdan,. When I die I will probably not be known as member of P&Y. I certainly will not be known as a “General” or “Regular” or “Senior” of P&Y. I will simply be known as hunter who loved to bow hunt, who loved to be around other bowhunters and loved to spend time in God’s blessing of the outdoors.

29-Jan-18
Good read, Greg! I see where you are coming from, smaller level albeit, but I do get your reasoning for being a part of the club.

From: SBH
29-Jan-18
Well said Buffalo 1

From: Native Okie
29-Jan-18
Well said, Greg. Glad you chimed in.

From: HeadHunter®
30-Jan-18
* also, someone don't have to 'join' to enter a qualifying animal in The Record Book! Just have it scored & qualify by a P&Y Measurer and Pay The Fee and submit it to The P&Y Headquarters.

From: TD
30-Jan-18
Herm, you are absolutely correct, my bad to infer otherwise. I was just assuming a person would have the moral compulsion to join the org he was entering his records into...... and we all know that little thing about ass-u-me-ing..... =D

30-Jan-18
Good post Greg. I hope to end up as level-headed as you are.

30-Jan-18
Buffalo1 states what I feel mostly. Good post! I feel like I have been preaching to the choir when it comes to this subject of membership levels. Nice to know others feel likewise. If some ranking system has to remain intact, so be it, but do not deprive the majority of membership information and ability to vote for presidency etc. Have a level of recognition and ranking within the club honored and earned similar to the boy scouts. Right now I am a weeblo with no desire to advance. Sure I could volunteer at the conventions and such but I find myself opposing such effort just because of the tiered structure. Having to have a person kill stuff to advance, come on, that is ridiculous. Rambling on here. I will remain a member despite my difference with this subject but think a huge improvement can be made with just this one matter.

From: Mad Trapper
30-Jan-18
Greg x 2!

From: sticksender
30-Jan-18
I've always assumed that the purpose of the tiered membership system was not to glorify or honor certain selected members, but rather simply a practical way to prevent the club from being taken over by coup. Being a private club, it seems logical to want to prevent a special interest group or a commercial entity, from taking over and changing the mission of the club for financial gain, or other reasons. So far, in the history of the club, it seems to have worked well for that purpose.

30-Jan-18
Yes it has but the question of growth of the club and more involvement suggest something different needs to be done. If content, remain the same. Personally I will ride with it but it is inhibitory to growth and involvement no doubt.

From: Brotsky
30-Jan-18
I think it speaks volumes to our passion about bowhunting that so many of us ARE members in spite of our differences or concerns with the club. How many of the posts in this thread say something like "I'll be a lifelong member BUT......"? That is not something to be taken lightly by the powers that be within the upper echelon of PY. Imagine how impactful we could be if we could turn those but's into candy and nuts?

30-Jan-18
Glad I took time to read that Greg...Excellent post!!!

From: Ollie
30-Jan-18
So an organization should sell out its principles just to attract the younger bowhunters who are alienated by things like "ethics"?

From: mnbwhtr
30-Jan-18
I have to wonder how many members actually read the new bylaws when they came up for a vote. I've never seen anything as un American in my life! The section on running for office tells me the coup has already taken place. The club is now a business. Been a senior member since 2001. Membership has remained at about 6k for at least the last 8-10 yrs. Social media gets a lot of attention but not memberships. I don't know what will.

From: Hamer's Ma
30-Jan-18
Ike, thank you for asking who I'd vote for for 2nd Vice President. There's been several on this thread that have chimed in for Ricky, but I'd like to make a plug for Julie Cordes, the other candidate.

Julie understands the Club from the inside out. She knows more about the Club and has spent more hours involved in the Club, than any candidate (for any position), other than Glenn Hisey. Approximately 30,000 hours. You see, she worked full-time for the Pope & Young Club for 14 years. She stopped working for the Club in 2014, when she was pregnant with her second child, due to wanting to be at home more with the children. For the last 8 years of her time at the Club, she commuted just over an hour to work each way. That's dedication, and love of the job - cause I can promise you, it wasn't about the pay. She is the candidate for 2nd VP that for 14 years answered your questions, helped solve your problems, made sure your materials arrived to you in a timely manner, and assisted you on the phone, at conventions, and at the office.

I find it odd that people are pointing out that millennials aren't joiners and that the average age of members is 50 years old, and yet they are campaigning for a soon to be 50 year old man. Julie is an actual millennial woman, according to wikipedia (she was born in 1980). This woman is in tune with social media. As a matter of fact, this woman is the one who originally started the Club's social media presence a couple of years prior to the Club hiring Rick Mowery as Communications and Marketing Manager. She championed the use the of social media, and saw the Club's facebook page through it's early days.

I'm not sure where anyone is getting the idea that Julie would have archaic ideas, be out of touch with current events in the bowhunting world, or just be running because she has an axe to grind. I can tell you the week following Julie's first bow harvest 6 1/2 years ago, she asked how soon could she run for 2nd VP. This has been her goal for many years, and others are just making up reasons to discredit her.

Please read her resume, and make your own decision, based upon who you think would be the best candidate.

Jaquomo, I highly doubt that a presidential candidate agreed with you saying he was out of touch. I think you misread something. I just asked Glenn, and he said that I could share his exact reply to you. "Thank you for your response. I think that you are correct in your assessment of younger bowhunters. Old differs like me will soon die off so we need to be thinking how to attract the next bunch. The Club needs you and other forward thinking people to get involved. Thanks." I don't read anywhere in here that he is agreeing he is out of touch.

I'm surprised no one else has pointed out that the new bylaws dictates that the only way the Regular/Senior candidates are allowed to contact the membership during the election is by USPS mailing, and only one time, or by individual phone calls. They are not allowed to send mass emails. Also, this mailing is at their own expense, and they are not wasting the Club's money.

I take a lot of offense at your derogatory comment about the backwater spithole village that I grew up in. It's so nice of you to offer your knowledgeable opinion when you have clearly spent a lot of time in my hometown, met its population, visited its schools, and attended its churches. I wonder if I spent a day in your town once every few years, if you would think I could pass fair judgement? I wonder if I spent an hour once every few years watching a building, if I could make an accurate estimation of the number of visitors in a year? Lastly, perhaps you weren't a member back then, but the members are the ones who voted to purchase the property in Chatfield and to move the museum there. This is no one person's fault or agenda. This is something the majority of voting members chose. Please remember the facts before you spread your hate. Karla Hamersma

30-Jan-18
Spreading hate? Gee wiz. Just offering suggestions to grow and or sustain is what I interpreted his post to be.

From: Trial153
30-Jan-18
Ollie and Fraz illustrate perfectly the disconnect. The holier then thou attitude that if you don’t aline with our ideas then you must be unrefined and ethically challenged is a total deal breaker for most potential new members. Bowhunters both young an old aren’t joining not because they lack ethics but because the club has done a poor job selling their ideas and the value of membership. The eliteist membership structure doesn’t even get to factor into their decisions because the don’t even get that far in entertaining the idea to begin with. Less then 6000 members? We are supposed to be the premier and defining voice for Bowhunters in North America but it looks like we have buried our heads in the sand while irrelevance bites our asses. Until we place a premium on bringing new members into the fold, understanding the value of what they bring to the table and building on all of our commonality we will never see an measurable difference in the clubs influence on a national scale.

30-Jan-18
Ok, so the tiered membership goes away and it doesn't do a thing for membership. Then what?

From: Jaquomo
30-Jan-18
Karla, thank you for your thoughtful post. Chatfield may be the most wonderful town in the country. But nobody ever goes there. It is Nowhere, America. Let's remember that the "members" did not vote to purchase the property in Chatfield. A few hundred members voted to do it, many of them "old timers" because that was when the Regular membership was limited, if I remember correctly. If "members" were allowed to vote, I can assure you the museum would be in a place where people could actually see and experience it.

Since you took the liberty of posting the response to a private email I sent in confidence to Glenn, I will post my entire letter to him. I believe what you (and Glenn) did in deciding to make it public without my permission is the epitome of unethical behavior, and solidifies my opposition to Glenn for president. Here you go:

Dear Glenn:

First of all, I want to thank you for your many years of dedicated service to the Pope and Young Club. You and Kevin were huge contributors to the growth of the club, and it is much appreciated. I was very sorry for your loss of Kevin, and grateful for his huge contributions to bowhunting as well. Losing my wife unexpectedly this past November just as I was leaving for a deer hunt changed my entire perspective on life.

I read with objective interest your letter seeking the position of president. I wanted to share some thoughts with you. First of all, some background. I’m a regular member and have been a strong supporter of the club. I’m a bowhunting writer and speaker, have shot a bow for 55 years, have bowhunted big game for 47 years with longbows, recurves, and occasionally a compound. I will be 64 years old in May.

I’ve been studying the demographics and trends in hunting and bowhunting for several years, and give banquet speeches to bowhunting clubs on the topic. From the thoughts expressed in your letter, I don’t believe you understand the nature of today’s bowhunters. My primary question to you is, what is the value of the club to Millennial bowhunters? They represent the future of bowhunting, but they are inherently not “joiners” of any organization that is not virtual. They don’t subscribe to magazines, they don’t pay dues, and with rare exceptions, they don’t volunteer. If they do spend money, they need to recognize instant value. When the “Boomer Bubble” finally drops out of hunting over the next 15 years, the total number of hunters overall is projected to decrease by 25-30%. Bowhunting trends parallel this. P&Y member demographics mirror this as well. To attract new members the club needs to show value besides simply putting someone’s name in a record book next to an animal. That is a goal for many, but once the novelty wears off, there’s no reason to continue paying dues. It’s why we see people leave the club after two years. There’s no “there” there.

Millennials are “connected”. Constantly connected. Where is the P&Y app that gives them links to current weather and wind where they are, allows them to interact live during their hunt, gives them articles from past Ethics to read on stand, allows them to post live hunts that are promoted on the website main page? The current leadership has made an effort to become more engaged through FB, Twitter and Instagram, but that’s not enough. The club following on those vehicles is just too small to hold much interest, when they can instantly interact with tens of thousands of bowhunters through other apps like the Bowsite mobile app. They can ask a question while on stand and instantly get answers from some of the best bowhunters in the world. And it doesn’t cost $35 a year. This is the teaser for the youth site: “There are tons of reasons why you should team up with Pope and Young Club - including to advance your bowhunting skills and interact with other youth bowhunters like yourself from all over North America. “ They can already do that for free now, on a multitude of forums.

Pope and Young Club has wallowed in the past while modern venues like the Bowsite become the resources for bowhunters. There are roughly 23,000 different individuals on the Bowsite every single day, with three million registered users. Almost every bowhunter I know checks in on the Bowsite nearly every day. How many people visit the P&Y website each day? Maybe 23?

How would anyone besides members know anything about the conservation efforts and contributions of the club? They have to hunt for it. It needs to be proactively pushed to them. Even so, supporting conservations organizations is way down the list of priorities for millennials. They would pay $35 to get 5,000 “likes” on a social media site, but not to help promote “Archery In The Schools” or WSF.

Honestly, when I joined the first time I just wanted to have an animal listed in the “book”, which sort of meant something to me back then. Then I dropped out after a couple years. I saw no reason to continue paying dues until I killed another qualifying animal. Now I may or may not enter a qualifying animal, depending upon whether I want to go through the hassle of finding and pinning-down a measurer.

Last week I attended the International Sportsman’s Expo in Denver. Huge event full of hunters, current and prospective bowhunters. The Colorado Bowhunters Association had a big booth, with bows and instruction offered. There was a giant indoor archery range right in the middle with pop-up 3-D competitions going on all four days. Big crowds watched and tried bows, many for the first time. Where was the Pope and Young Club booth to recruit and spread the message?

The Pope and Young Club is trying to cling 1960’s style image in 2018. That won’t work. I’ve been to a number of conventions and it’s like a geriatric social. Silverbacks and Gray-hairs hobbling around who all seem to know each other. You said you want to make it into more like a “club”. The perception among millennials is exactly that – a “Good Old Boy’s Club”. Most non-members perceive the Pope and Young Club is made up of a bunch of old rich “Good Old Boys” who are closed-minded, against technology, and only care about one-upping each other with bigger animals that they “buy” on expensive guided hunts. I attend the conventions for several reasons – to reconnect with friends I’ve met through social media, to see the trophy displays, and for the Bowsite social. many folks I talk to believe the club is all about promoting "horn porn", which they see as a negative in hunting.

Millennials can kill an animal and pay $35 to have it listed in small print in a book that comes out every few years, that nobody reads. Or they can post it on Bowsite and Facebook and Instagram and within a few hours it will be seen by tens of thousands of peers, maybe by hundreds of thousands if it takes off and is shared. That costs nothing and gives them instant gratification, with some short-term notoriety. They can have real-time discussions with other hunters about the animal and the hunt. What does the Pope and Young Club offer that can compete with this? Not much. Only a name in a book along with thousands of other small-print names. And a certificate. Yes, of course the club supports many worthwhile conservation and bowhunting causes. But how would anyone know this outside the club? Again, what value does that $35 a year bring (in my case, $150) vs. sending $35 directly to RMEF, for instance?

Your proposed focus on getting the records program organized and insignificant goals like getting the Ethic out on time will do nothing to increase the membership or address retention. It’s like putting new drive belts on the Buggy Whip machine while race cars are zooming past the buggy whip factory. A real world understanding of today’s bowhunters seems to be missing from the club, overall. You mention that you don’t hear much about the club. You must not be engaged beyond Chatfield. Do a Bowsite search on Pope and Young Club or P&Y and you’ll find all sorts of discussions about it, and will hopefully learn why people don’t see any value in entering animals or belonging to the club. It is discussed all the time on social media, bowhunting forums, online discussion groups. I hear about the club a lot – usually in negative context. When I try to educate people one-on-one, or in my banquet talks and seminars, I get glazed looks and people start looking at their phones. Most think it only exists to keep records, and most will never kill an animal that qualifies.

Speaking of the real world, I’ve been to Chatfield, the HQ and the museum twice. One day you were kind enough to give me a personal tour, and I appreciated it. It is a wonderful testament to bowhunting, but on both of my visits there it was empty. So why was it relocated to a remote farm town like Chatfield, where absolutely nobody ever goes? (I do know why, and I’ll leave it at that....). The museum needs to be located close to a big destination place – like, say, adjacent to Bass Pro in Springfield MO, or Cabelas in Denver, or a Scheels, or anywhere where people can see it, enjoy it, learn from it, and appreciate the heritage of our pursuit. Having it located in Chatfield is a terrific waste of money and a waste of a precious resource.

The Pope and Young Club is, unfortunately, a dusty old relic trying to cling to the 1960s, while bowhunters are charging ahead into the 21st century. It’s the cracked old leather back quiver hanging on the wall in the corner of the shiny modern bow shop. This makes me very sad. The current leadership has tried very hard to move it forward, to the chagrin of many old donkeys who resent change. I predict that within 15 years the club will see a greater than 50% decrease in membership unless the club recruits innovative young leaders, adopts communication and engagement technology, and hires people with a track record of success in connecting with millennials to proactively market the value. I respect the hell out of you for all you’ve done for bowhunting, but it is clear from your letter that you don’t seem understand bowhunters today and their interests and priorities, don’t understand the trends of social media and how it has overtaken messaging, don’t understand what is happening with the club, want to “save” it but don’t have a clear idea about how to do that.

I would run for a Board position except that I’m already on three Boards now. I personally think you’re a great man and a great contributor to bowhunting and the club, and I hope you’ll get involved again as a Director or with the museum. But unfortunately I can’t support you as president based upon your position letter.

Sincerely,

Lou Phillippe

R2004091302

30-Jan-18
Then you have members that are more informed as to the goings on and that can vote for positions other than just 2nd Vice President.

From: Brotsky
30-Jan-18
Very well written letter Lou and expresses many of the feelings I have had regarding the club.

I live only a few hours from Chatfield and have been there a few times to the museum and have often wondered why it is where it is. It is a great resource to the club, if only we could get that resource in front of more people.

From: Franzen
30-Jan-18
Trial, I'm not sure where you're getting holier than thou from my posts, so take your attack elsewhere. If you want to start a club that is for anyone who picks up a device that launches an arrow, regardless of ethics, then go for it. It is sad to watch you attack other members because they believe in what P&Y stands for.

From: Orion
30-Jan-18
great letter lou, too bad it falls on deaf ears

From: GhostBird
30-Jan-18
I am a member and agree with most of what has been stated... thanks Greg & Lou for your opinions. I will continue to be a member and support P&Y regardless of any changes the club makes or doesn't.

30-Jan-18
Whoa, easy now...We're all bowhunters, was a simple question about the candidates...

From: Doug C.
30-Jan-18
There were two comments regarding P&Y's recently revised by-laws that need a response. First, Randy Doyle (mnbwhtr) wrote he'd "...never seen anything so un-American in my life!" I guess that makes the two lawyers (both longtime P&Y members) plus P&Y's Board of Directors all un-American. Many of the changes were necessary to make P&Y compliant with non-profit laws and to incorporate changes that had already been member approved but not actually written into the by-laws. The final revision passed the scrutiny of the two lawyers and then was unanimously approved by the Board of Directors that voted (one Board member did not vote). The revised by-laws overwhelming passed by 90% of those that voted! I guess all those members that voted "yes" are also unAmerican.

The second comment concerns the code of conduct for any candidate running for a P&Y Board position. Randy made the comment "The section on running for office tells me the coup has already taken place." Hamer's Ma (Karla Hamersma) wrote "...the new bylaws dictates the only way the Regular/Senior candidates are allowed to contact the membership during the election is by USPS mailing, and only one time, or by individual phone calls. They are not allowed to send mass emails."

P&Y members know the previous two elections, and especially the previous one, were not something to be proud of. The Board heard it from both sides saying enough is enough. Trying to return civility to the election was the reason behind the creation of an Ethics Comittee and to create rules of conduct during an election.

As for the Museum being in Chatfield. Yes, there is current discussion about it moving. Any dialogue along these lines is very personal for Hamer's Ma and a few other people. Those that put the time and effort into building what is now on display are to be commended as it's top notch. No one can dispute that. But as for visitor numbers, they are very small. Chatfield's population is around 3000. Roughly 20 miles away is Rochester (pop. 114,000), which is home to the Mayo Clinic. Compare that to Springfield, MO, (pop 167,000) and home of Bass Pro. Johnny Morris' Wonders of Wildlife was just voted the #1 new attraction in America. Throw in the Fred Bear Museum, B&C's Heads and Horns collection, Archery Hall of Fame and the NRA exhibit that are also at BP. Every year over 1 million people visit BP and the associated museums there. Granted, each museum doesn't get all the visitors but even if a miniscule 5% visit, that's 50,000 people exposed to P&Y's history of bowhunting, conservation ethic and Fair Chase. It's a no-brainer to consider moving the museum. It's a win-win for both the Club's message and financial coffers.

From: darralld
30-Jan-18
Lou, Great letter! Love the club. My dad was the president for many years back in the 80's. Back then it was great & had a purpose. It still does, but needs to get with the times as you addressed. Never been to the museum. Would really like to see it. We will probably donate some of dad's stuff to it. But I agree, something in Springfield tied in with Bass Pro & the Archer Hall of Fame would have been much better. I haven't been a member for years. My dad probably just rolled over in his grave....

Darrall Dougherty

From: Jaquomo
30-Jan-18
Adding to the offer above, I will pay the first year dues for five new members who would like to join the Pope and young Club. PM me if interested, or email at elklou1244@gmail.com

EDIT: Now the offer is for four because I'm signing up a young fella, avid bowhunter, who thought the club was only for record animals and he only dreams of achieving that.

30-Jan-18
I really like Lou's idea of a P&Y app with weather, access to records and forms, ability to have an interactive section for live hunts and be able to share kill pics, etc. If it was done right, it could be really cool. A section for who's hunting where could be done easily by county or state, you could make it as specific or non-specific as you liked. Imagine November with a chat section on your phone reading about everyone's success. Sounds like a great idea for a club.

From: Owl
30-Jan-18
Based on the quality of the postings herein I'd like to lock TD and Lou in a room for a few hours and see what they conjure. Both have very reasoned perspectives.

From: Kurt
30-Jan-18
As I remember I was the only "Regular" member to vote against moving the museum to Chatfield.......at the Salt Lake City Banquet Regular and Sr Member meeting in 2001 if memory serves me correctly. It was my first Regular Member meeting after applying (and having waited about 15 years to be a regular member). As soon as the meeting was over I was informed my vote wouldn't count as I wasn't officially a Regular member yet.....although invited to the meeting and awaiting some kind of stamp of final approval to be considered one later in the meeting. (Makes you feel really valued as a member for sure....NOT). Some of the members asked me why I voted against moving to Chatfield........which were basically the same as the LOCATION/LOCATION/LOCATION concerns listed above by Lou, plus concerns about the cost estimate for the project.

Anyway, I've continued to be a member of P&Y (now a Senior member....old), but agree we need to continue to shorten the time it takes to be a voting member. 15 years was too long, 10 years is too long to kick around as an associate.....even 5 years is quite a while if we want to grow the club and get new blood engaged. I didn't know any more about bowhunting and the club after 15 years than I did after 5, and had a lot less time and interest in participating due to career obligations. The original club members in the 1960s and maybe the 1970s were able to move up to leadership roles very quickly, but that changed in the 80s and 90s. Some positive changes have been made in that regard but overall it holds the club back to keep the majority of the members without a vote.

I agree the museum should be moved to a location with exposure to a lot of traffic.

Good luck to Jim Willems and any candidates that are interested in moving the club forward in the upcoming election. I haven't seen all the resumes since they come by snail mail and the Canadian border really ensures P&Y mail often arrives post election, especially voting for advancing member to Regular and Sr status. We need to modernize and ship everything via email, including all the voting.

Kurt, 32 year P&Y member

30-Jan-18
Good post Doug. Thanks.

From: Jaquomo
30-Jan-18
Thanks, Ike. The app could even have photos of what a qualifying animal looks like (I know there are lots of variables, but still..) so when somebody sees an animal or gets a photo on a trail cam they don't have to come to the Bowsite to ask what a 125" buck looks like, for instance. I realize an app would do no good on the rotary-dial phones of the same old Luddites in Minnesota who require everyone to use snail-mail, but it would be good for everyone else.

Then again, the Bowsite is 1000x more valuable than the P&Y website, so maybe better off coming here......

From: Treeline
30-Jan-18
Lou, that was a very well written letter. You hit on many points that are spot on for the advancement and how to carry us on into the future. Thank you.

Kurt, I would have voted with you in SL if I could have... Was shut out as an Associate Member and had to hang with Uncle Ted... Finally made regular member after that Convention. Seems like a lifetime ago when you, Rock and I went to that Convention in Omaha.

From: Karla
30-Jan-18
I found an error in something I said, and need to correct it. The new bylaws, Appendix A, Article III, section 3.7 states "Mass emails and letters concerning candidates and platforms can only be sent by those running for office." So I think mass emails from candidates are allowed, if screened by the Ethics Committee. It is in the Election Rules of the Pope and Young Club where it says candidates will be afforded the opportunity to access one set of address labels for the full voting membership. There was no offer for candidates to receive the email list. I apologize for my mistake. I was only pointing this out to share that the candidates are not being archaic by following the rules. They are simply following the NEW rules created in 2017.

I also just want to say that I don't have any problem with the discussion of the museum. I have a problem with my hometown being called a spithole backwater village and Nowhere, America.

Lou, I'm sorry you found my post to be unethical. I did not think it was in any way.

Thank you, Karla

From: Jaquomo
30-Jan-18
Karla, I understand your offense at my choice of words and I meant it figuratively, not literally. I'm sorry that you took it personally. I apologize for offending you and the fine people of Chatfield.

FYI, it is considered bad form to publish private correspondences on public forums without permission from both parties, especially by a third party. I didn't mention Glenn anywhere on this thread, only that I was disturbed by "one candidate's" perceived detachment from reality. I would have preferred it stayed that way since the huge majority of P&Y members have no idea who is even running for president. And I have a huge amount of respect for Glenn. But now it's out there...

From: mnbwhtr
30-Jan-18
Doug, I asked how many members actually read the bylaws before voting on them, I don't think many, it's like Nancy Pelosi's "sign and then read later" comments. Having to be approved to run and then having everything you write be approved by a committee picked by people in office sounds like something you would see from Russia!

From: wildlifex
30-Jan-18
Pope and Young members need to be aware of the expense of our wonderful museum. Because of the museum being in Olmsted county ( same as Mayo Clinic ) the taxes are ridiculously high. Taxes , insurance and maintenance are in excess of $70,000. This is only one of the many reasons we should explore more viable location.

Darrall , I had the honor and pleasure of hunting with your father in Kansas his last year . We had discussions about relocating the museum and as I recall he was in favor of it. Good luck to Jim , Jack , Ricky , Jack and Merritt

From: Predeter
30-Jan-18
Jaquomo, excellent letter and I am in agreement with many of your points but I do have a comment on your position that the younger generation aren't "joiners". If you look at hunting social media everyone is wearing flat bills and t-shirts with some companies logo. Check out Mtn Ops, Tines Up, Hushin, etc. These "companies" have built brands that are extremely popular! Everyone is sporting their logo' s in an effort to be associated with their brand. I think this is the way the younger generation "joins" something.

I have been a member of the club for just a couple years now and I'm 31. I joined because I loved what the club stood for and always thought of it as an elite organization in a good way. I think the club's message is great and would attract a lot if younger members but I think their "brand" sucks (if that makes any sense)! With the ease of messaging and content creation via social media these days there is really no excuse for how little presence the club has. It's boggled my mind ever since I joined and started paying attention.

From: lawdy
30-Jan-18
Bowhunting doesn't need clubs that require a trophy animal or the taking of 3 species to be a regular member. Bowhunting needs a "voice" that unites and is willing to draw lines as to what bowhunting consists of. The majority of us bowhunters are middle-class people. Few can afford trips, leases, and are relegated to public land only, if that. Just reading the numbers in P+Y and its fees leads me to believe that it is a very exclusive club but not the voice bowhunting needs to survive. A nice club that records trophies but not for the average bowhunter. Gun owners have the NRA. Bowhunters need a national unifying organization, if that is possible. One that doesn't cost a working stiff $150.

From: StickFlicker
30-Jan-18
Greg, great post! YOU should run for 2nd Vice President!! Can we write you in?

From: Doug C.
30-Jan-18
Randy, I'm not sure where your "Russia" comment comes from.

You wrote "I have to wonder how many members actually read the new bylaws when they came up for a vote. I've never seen anything as unAmerican in my life!" In your second post regarding how many read them you said "...I don't think many...". Then you ended your post by saying the new rules that state having a member first be approved to run and then having what they write be approved "...sounds like something you would see from Russia!

I can't say how many read it word for word. It was given to them along with an explanation of the changes. If they didn't read it, who's fault is that? Personally, as one of a couple of Board members who helped proofread all the revisions, and there were more than enough, I was seeing double and then some. We offered a couple of suggestions but the main work was done by the by-laws committee.

That committee was selected at the April 2017 Board meeting. Jim (Pres) was on it and two people from both "camps" were also selected to ensure an unbiased look at them. The "other camp" consisted of a long-time Senior member who, along with his wife, was in attendence at the meeting, the other person was a sitting Board member. The two people from that "camp" contributed absolutely nothing. One never even had the courtesy to reply to emails from Jim asking for his input. He was replaced by another Senior member who was a significant contributor. The other person's only contribution was the reply "I'll look at it when it's done." Some of that is in the Board minutes you, and any Regular/Senior member, can find posted on the website.

The "having to be approved to run" came from some that didn't like what occurred with one member several decades ago, so this approval process came from them. As for approval of what a candidate writes, that is to ensure everything is factual, not taken out of context, and doesn't defame/slam another candidate. That was brought on by what took place in the last election.

From: Zackman
30-Jan-18
If there is one thing to take away from all of this, I hope people--members and non-members--realize how much passion surrounds the Pope & Young Club. I never see topics as heated about the Elk or Mule deer foundations, or NFAA, or Wild Sheep...

I think that most people can realize that P&Y has its place in the world .

From: Native Okie
30-Jan-18
“I wonder if I spent a day in your town once every few years, if you would think I could pass fair judgement? ”

I bet you would agree the beer is good there. Trust me.

31-Jan-18
Do the majority of the members know things such as what Doug is describing and explaining? My guess would be not at all. Therein lies the problem of the tiered structure in my opinion. Ugh.

31-Jan-18
Just a thought from 33 year old that has only been a member for maybe 4 years..... Has anyone at PY reached out to the big time media guys? Examples: Cameron Hanes, Levi Morgan, the Lakosky's, the Drury's, heck SCI has a commercial with Jim Shockey. What about the podcasts that seem to be exploding in interest over the last couple years? Joe Rogan literally touches millions of listeners on a weekly basis and he literally said bowhunting changed he life on a recent MeatEater podcast. How about the YouTube guys? Born and Raised did Land of the Free for 50 days straight, was a huge hit with a lot of bowhunters watching that haven't ever been elk hunting. I didn't watch the entire thing, but I'm pretty sure PY was never mentioned. Anyways, seems like PY could get their name out there pretty easily by partnering with a few of the these type of programs. It would reach way more people than a little advertisement in a bowhunting magazine. Anyways just a thought about how to reach out to the younger generation who love bowhunting but may not have even knew what PY stand for.....

From: No Mercy
31-Jan-18
Yes-they have Raised Hunting and Donnie Vincent.

From: Trial153
31-Jan-18
How about add banners on sites like this, arechery talk, Bowhunting.com, Hunttalk forums, and Rokslide

From: Deone H
31-Jan-18
I love the P&Y Club and what it represents. I just wish it did not ask for and publicize specific location/county of kill. I personal feel and maybe I’m wrong, that there is too advertising already. I may have weird opinions and worry too much....otherwise I have several I’d enter

From: darralld
31-Jan-18
Wildlifex, don't think it was last year unless he came down from the clouds. He passed away in September of 2015.

From: jdee
31-Jan-18
Darralld you must have misread his post it says he ......hunted in Kansas with your father his “last “ year.

From: darralld
31-Jan-18
Yep, looks like I did.

From: mnbwhtr
31-Jan-18
In Russia you can say whatever you like, as long as the government approves, kind of like running for office for P&Y. Out of here, going on vacation.

From: Shrewski
31-Jan-18

Shrewski's embedded Photo
Shrewski's embedded Photo
I’m a life member of P&Y. I have a few animals entered as well.

I go to the P&Y and B&C website every Monday to look at the “photo of the week” page to look at the fine animals and see if any of my friends are highlighted. There are three new photos on B&C’s website EVERY week...it does not matter if it is Christmas Day. The P&Y single photo is rarely updated. Look here is the only one for the entire year and it Is February tomorrow:

From: Shrewski
31-Jan-18

Shrewski's embedded Photo
Photo of the Week? Let’s just change the title.
Shrewski's embedded Photo
Photo of the Week? Let’s just change the title.

From: Shrewski
31-Jan-18

From: Shrewski
31-Jan-18
My point to the “weekly” photo hardly ever being updated in a timely manner?

I’m going to be 50 this year so I’m not even close to a millennial. The ONLY thing on the P&Y website that is “current” is hardly ever updated. There is no other reason to go there :-(

From: Ambush
31-Jan-18
I didn’t even know that page existed after being s member for about ten years.

Ironic that my hardcore bow hunting partner sends me up dated pics from the B&C Trophy Watch Page.

From: Starfire
31-Jan-18
I am a long time regular member. I joined after I shot my first animal. As I see it (and it is apparent just by looking at this thread) the Club has always had an identity crisis. There are those that want to keep it steeped in tradition and those that want to make it more relevant to todays bowhunter. The first question that needs to be asked "is that possible" or are the two mutually exclusive?

From: HeadHunter®
31-Jan-18
One can always start 'their own club' if they don't like 'the old P & Y Club' ..... why destroy what 'was' / is the best bow hunting club in North America? ..... (Change for the sake of 'technology' is a poor poor excuse!) ...... jmho ...... and, * Julie Cordes is The Perfect Choice for 2nd VP * ....... Julie lived & breathed The P & Y Club ...... and bow hunting and 'The Club' is still her passion! She knows how 'the club' works and what it needs to survive even today .... (Change isn't always good .... we've seen this the past 8 years or so .... and "that" isn't working!) ....... as for moving The P & Y Museum, why not Ferguson, Mo. then (Lol) ..... 'we' don't need B-Pro Shop in our lives .... I'll never set foot in another one as long as I live .... they are a "business" first & foremost and only care about "profit & loss" ..... Nothing More! .....

From: Trial153
31-Jan-18
So I will ask this ...of the two candidates which do you feel will move the club in direction that reflects growth vs the status quo? Because the more comments I read like the above and some others in this thread the more I believe the status quo will hav sour club die a slow death into further irrelevance.

From: No Mercy
31-Jan-18
Herm-while you are certainly entitled to your opinions, you are in the Bowsite minority just by reading what is above your post. It's probably time that the "old guard" look at what is actually going on in the world, and step aside to let some new blood run the club, or it's going to end up being a club that is no longer relevant at all. Lou said it best above: "The Pope and Young Club is, unfortunately, a dusty old relic trying to cling to the 1960s, while bowhunters are charging ahead into the 21st century. It’s the cracked old leather back quiver hanging on the wall in the corner of the shiny modern bow shop."

From: Ramhunter
31-Jan-18
Thank you all for your comments, idea, criticisms and suggestions on this thread. As a Board member for the past 4 years, I have a greater appreciation for the realities in getting things accomplished within an organization like Pope & Young, which is certainly not unique to P&Y.

As many of you probably know the past 4 years have been challenging with unexpected obstacles resulting in Board Members having to do more than serving in an advisory capacity. The time demands have been significant, and I'm thankful for my fellow Board members that were able to give more time than I could afford.

This thread has certainly highlighted a number of opportunities, that I don't think any Board member would disagree with in concept. As an organization the biggest challenge we face are the resources to focus on the most important strategic items. We need more members to increase revenue to invest in many of these ideas listed above, and yet we need the ideas implemented to grow the membership. It is a classic chicken vs. egg scenario.

Unfortunately you don't build a forum like Bowsite without resources. You don't create significant social media presences without either resources or a dynamic personality (or cute girl) that people want to follow. A new website was built 5 years ago and cost a fortune, and even with that upgrade it doesn't have all the functionality we desire. But those are all just obstacles, the key is to find ways to overcome them. We've done a better job over the past few years managing the budget and our expenses, but even so we still have significant overhead.

As was mentioned eariler, our museum is fantastic, and the building is paid for, but the property taxes and insurance expense is significant. If we can find a home with more exposure than today and shift those fixed costs to another that would be a huge win/win for the Club, and I believe that will happen.

Someone mentioned the mailers from RMEF and such. Direct mail marketing works, but also comes with a cost. MDF used, and maybe still does, a marketing firm based in Minneapolis - MCA (Membership Corporation of America), and has grown amazingly quickly over the past 15 years. The founder of MCA was the original marketer of the North American Hunting Club - an organization he and the partner sold about 20 years ago for over $55 million dollars. Because of a Board Member relationship with MCA, we were able to bring them in for consultation which was very helpful, but also highlighted the resource constraints we face. Marketing is expensive, no matter how you do it, if you do it even remotely well.

Celebrity endorsements and great, but they also are not free. That is their business and they pitch themselves at a cost. 6 years ago we spent big money (for a Club of our size) for advertising on the Outdoor Channel. Does anyone remember? The return wasn't there, it wasn't free, and when you say yes to one path you are automatically saying no to another.

But again, all said these are just obstacles and it is up to the Club, the Board, and the members to find ways to overcome them. Everyone has their idea on how to make this happen, and there likely is more than one path to success.

I guess my point with all of this is to first thank you all for your comments and to acknowledge them and at least reply that the Board is not filled with a bunch of old stick in the mud people like is portrayed from time to time. I have great respect for all my fellow Board members and those I served with in the past. All have different strengths, but collectively the group has always been a pretty intelligent brain trust. I'm also thankful to those that are choosing to step forward and serve by running for election. The hours suck and the pay is even worse, but they all do it out of a deep rooted passion for bowhunting and the P&Y Club and for that I sincerely thank you!

At the end of the day, growth in business is hard, and the same holds true related to growth in non-profits, organizations, associations, clubs, or any other entity. So we just have to keep working hard to move forward and make good strategic decisions as to where to invest our limited time and financial resources for the greatest ROI.

Remember, we are all either part of the problem or part of the solution. By having conversations like this with ideas and suggestions and a committment to not giving up, I'm optimistic that our Club will not only survive, but thrive into the future.

Thank you all for your support of the P&Y Club, and if you are not yet a member I sincerely invite you to join the cause and become part of the solution.

Todd

From: Jaquomo
31-Jan-18
Great perspecitives, Todd. Hopefully we can talk at the CBA event. Thanks so much for your great effort.

So Herm, many of us who want to see the club grow, prosper, and survive beyond the next 10-15 years have offered some constructive suggestions. What are your ideas - beyond contentment with stagnation of a dusty old relic run by octogenarian officers who still use rotary dial phones? Julie excepted, since she probably understands and may even have email. However, she would represent the majority of the membership and they can't vote for bylaws, policy changes, or the most important positions.

From: LONEBULL
31-Jan-18
Pretty quiet all of a sudden.

From: Brotsky
31-Jan-18
Can anyone tell me why the club doesn't have local chapters? Similar to RMEF, MDF, WSF, etc? You could base these out of existing archery clubs a an example for fundraising and local awareness. Local presence and grassroots growth can often be had for little to nothing with volunteers pushing the club.

From: HeadHunter®
31-Jan-18
Well Lou, believe it or not we did get rid of our 'rotary dial phone' a few years back (I wish we still had it) .... "octogenarian" ? What exactly is "that" ? ..... so what are my ideas? ..... well, I said IF one didn't like The Club then why destroy it (or change it) when 'they' could just start their own club! ......... ????

The reason I think is 'the new club' needed The Record Book (and somewhat the museum) because those are The Pope & Young Club! It is just sad and very nauseating to see Glen St.Charle's club nurturing and growth "die" ..... but all things do die at some point in time ..... The P & Y Club did mean a lot to a lot of people and they were dedicated to its survival .... and The Club was doing just fine ..... it wasn't a 'business' for sales & profit ..... The Club was more 'than that'! ..... It was (to me anyway) something sacred ..... BUT, the young dark haired whipper-snappers squeezing their cell phones and living 'on the web' had "A Vision" ..... (I know, some may be blond and or have no hair too) .... I just never was a big fan of 'change' ..... and The 'old' P & Y Club is really gone .... I accept that, but I don't have to like it!

From: Ramhunter
31-Jan-18
I'll see you at the CBA Banquet for sure Lou! Take care, Todd

From: Buffalo1
31-Jan-18
In my early years of being an "Associate" member (is that an oxymoron? Either you are a member or your not a member) the leadership was opposed to any commercialization in P&Y. I mean they bitterly opposed it. The leadership (Officers, Senior & Regular members) thought they were well funded like the Masters Tournament and they could finance their endeavors themselves.

Then P&Y began to have financial problems. Capital was needed to keep things afloat. Commercialization was the only solution. Senior and Regular membership levels had ceilings and Associate membership flucutuation turnover wasn't generating the needed capital. P&Y were forced to changed their mindset and way of operating. The archery related industry was invited to be organizational sponsors. This influx of capital helped keep things generate needed capital. The sponsor participation program has steadily grown and has become a vital part of P&Y and all the membership. I think for the most part, the majority of membership has embraced and enjoyed the relationship between the archery industry and P&Y.

A few years later, the idea of vendor booths at conventions was conceived,introduced and has obviously been well received by the convention attendees. The required vendor space of booth requirements has grown over the last couple of conventions. The vendors and the P&Y convention attendees seem to enjoy this aspect and the vendors obviously see it as profitable for their businesses or they would not be trying to secure a booth. This has provided another source of needed income for P&Y.

Hear is the bottom line point- P&Y had to change in order to survive. I don't think these changes have ever compromised the ethics, the values or the mission of P&Y.

In order for P&Y to continue to be viable, it must change some of it's policies, by-laws and procedures in order to move forward the times. This can be done without effecting its ethics, values or mission. If P&Y doesn't change -it will become stagnant, weak, irrelevant and then die.

The only places i know that thrive on death are flower shops, funeral homes and cemeteries. They are looking forward and welcome your business.

P&Y has proven it can change in the past and it can do it again. Change can and is often times difficult- but we can do it.

From: Jaquomo
31-Jan-18
Herm, thanks for your honest response. What exactly was "the old P&Y club"? And why was it "better"?

If you mean pre-internet, pre-computer, pre-cell phone, pre-email, pre-compound bow and carbon arrow, pre-Rage, pre-fast flite strings, pre-AIDS, pre-Bowhunter magazine, pre-hunting videos, pre-Viagra, back when men were Real Men and the club was a few hundred members and the leaders met in a smoky room to decide policy behind closed doors, then yes those days are gone (thankfully, mostly, except for Rage, AIDS, and maybe hunting TV shows).

But maybe it means something else that us young guys in our '60s don't recognize?

From: Buffalo1
01-Feb-18
In reviewing the comments on this thread, there has certainly been a lot of offered suggestions for issues that confront the incoming officers and board. Hopefully, they will glean from the remarks and take positive steps for the good of P&Y and the future of the organization.

From: rooselk
01-Feb-18
One of the barriers to regular membership is the requirement that one harvest an animal that meets the minimum requirement for entry entry into the record book. I actually have no problem with this requirement. But where I differ is in the matter of voting for leadership of the organization. I would reward longevity or consecutive years of membership. Perhaps voting for the president could be limited to regular or senior members but I would like to see the remaining board members be voted for by any member who has held consecutive membership for seven or ten years (the NRA has a similar requirement). The regular and senior members rightfully deserve the recognition they have earned. But excluding the general membership from having a real role in the governance of the organization makes no sense in this modern era.

01-Feb-18
Good point rooselk

From: rooselk
01-Feb-18
BTW, it's simply not true that millennials aren't joiners. Take a look at Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. BHA had doubled its membership in the past year. And, more importantly, most of these members are young. There are even BHA chapters on college campuses. Maybe P&Y would do well to take a cue from what BHA is apparently doing right.

From: Buffalo1
01-Feb-18
Is the office of president, the president of just the Senior & Regular members of P&Y or president of ALL of the members of P&Y?

Am I confused?

From: Jaquomo
01-Feb-18
Millennials are joiners of organizations dedicated to "causes". BHA represents a "cause". I'll bet if you ask 10 younger bowhunters what P&Y represents, 9 of them will say something about the record book. That's not a cause that will raise blood pressure and trigger action (or writing a check and filling out an application) with younger folks looking for meaning. They will also pay to join something that shows demonstrable value. Ask those same 10 young bowhunters about the value of P&Y and again, I'll bet it is something referencing the record book.

You don't see millennials joining the Elks club or the Moose club or the Masons, Shriners, Rotary clubs either.

P&Y clearly and admittedly has a messaging problem that some of the new leaders like Jim Willems are trying to address.

From: Jaquomo
01-Feb-18
BHA is also outspoken and highly visible on purpose. They've latched onto the "threatened wilderness" mantra that resonates with younger outdoors folks who don't even hunt, but do fish, backpack, etc..

You're correct that P&Y could learn much from studying BHA's success. Honestly, as a Regular member, I can't definitively say what the P&Y club has overtly done to try to promote and grow bowhunting, besides granting $60K a year to worthy organizations, holding a rendezvous, and maintaining the museum. Perhaps so, but the profile is so low as to not be noticeable, unlike BHA, which is a great example of getting OUT THERE as the face of the cause.

It's difficult to generate enthusiasm when the large majority of members have no say, no vote, no visibility into the machinations of the organization. Friends who have dropped their memberships are like, "why bother".

From: Bou'bound
02-Feb-18
if the club went away in a "poof" gone moment how would it change anything and how would it impact the 3,000,000 bowhunters in the US tomorrow or in the future.?

From: jstephens61
02-Feb-18
I joined P&Y last year, not sure why I waited so long other the the membership structure. The wife and I drove to St Louis for the convention. She is not a hunter , but enjoys going to conventions and banquets. Her comment was, we drove 3 hours for this? We have been to Elk Camps, SCI and several other shows and conventions, I’ve never felt more like an outsider than I did at P&Y. Everyone looked at us like “Who are you and why are you in my living room”. To me, the lack of venders and displays was shocking. The mounts on display were nice, but I’ve seen more on display at local deer shows. I’m not that tech savvy, so the web site is awkward to navigate. Will I continue to be a member? You bet. I may not agree with some of the decisions made, but the core principles are solid. Besides, you can only push for change from the inside, not standing on the sidelines.

02-Feb-18
What is RMEF, NRA, SCI, MDF, BHA and QDMA’s stance on Crossbows in archery season? Answer, no stance.

These organizations are chartered for other reasons but P&Y Club is chartered for the Future of Bow Hunting and does not believe Crossbows should be in archery seasons for able bodied hunters.

If you believe this too for your kids and grandkids future opportunities please join. $40 bucks a year is the cost of a pack of broadheads.

I can’t help but think when the Crossbow/airbow guys marketing team reads a thread like this they are smiling. No P&Y and their products get approved a heck of a lot faster!

From: rooselk
02-Feb-18
BHA is indeed visible and outspoken. Moreover, BHA events are fun. For instance, BHA holds pint nights at local breweries in various cities across the country. At these events the organization is promoted, stories are told, tickets are drawn for a handful of raffle items, and people meet like minded people. I have attended several of these events and I'm usually the oldest person in the room. It's primarily young people who attend these events. Thing is, there's no reason whatsoever that P&Y can't do something similar.

Maybe it's time to start activating the membership on the state and local level. For instance, why not annual state P&Y banquets to promote the club and to make it visible?

From: Trial153
02-Feb-18
Bou, absolutely nothing. And that is a crying shame.

The club has a stance on crossbows. Fantastic. And how have they used that stance in a concerted effective manner? We haven’t. Show me any substantial influence our club has in anything except a record book. There isn’t any.

From: GhostBird
02-Feb-18
Received my ballot package yesterday. From what I read in it and from the discussion here, I will cast my vote for Julie.

From: Rut Nut
02-Feb-18
I can't speak for other states, but I don't remember P&Y Club doing anything to keep crossbows out of Archery Seasons in PA.

From: Franzen
02-Feb-18
jstephens, what shows are you seeing more/better mounts at? I was downright blown away by the display of mounts. I don't go to other shows, but I can't imagine having several world record level species at any show around here. Curious if you actually put yourself out there and attempted to talk to people. As a younger guy that had never been to a P&Y event, I was out of place as anyone at St. Louis, and I can't say I actually felt that way. I was really only at convention for like 24 hours, but talked to numerous Bowsiters and other individuals. If you want to have the best opportunity, attending the Bowsite event might be it, because the banquets are a little more formal making it a bit tough to just run around to other tables where you don't know the other people.

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-18
Charlie, with all due respect, what has the club done to fight crossbows besides take a quiet position ? When we had the last flareup here in CO, it was the CBA at the forefront. P&Y, as an organization, was essentially invisible, although many CBA members are also P&Y members. Thankfully the CBA is a strong organization lobbying legislators and the CPW for our archery seasons.

Because of my love of the club and my passion for bowhunting, it's very possible I'm hoping the P&Y club will become something it never has been, and never will be under the current structure. That's likely the root of my frustration.

02-Feb-18
Colorado approved lighted nocks ONLY after P&Y did. You can’t tell me DOW does not look to P&Y for direction. I wish more states did. I would think the CBA used P&Y Clubs stance on Crossbows in archery season to help with DOW?

I am not saying P&Y can do it all but I’ll be darned if I see any other organization even trying to protect our bow hunting seasons and heritage.

From: Owl
02-Feb-18
The Pope and Young Club is poorly formed to represent or attract bowhunters as a whole demographic. Yoking membership rights to record keeping assured that. That is just the way it is. It clearly does not function well primarily in that respect. However, when viewed as a historical society or stewardship group, it functions very well, imo. Top notch, in fact. The Pope & Young Club has long been a touchstone of bowhunting. And that's good. We need fixed points to navigate life both physically and ideologically speaking. But, unfortunately, for the lighthouse, it ain't sexy.

Given the cumulative experience and credentials of its members, P&Y is well positioned to provide content that would make them more relevant, imo. And, in this age of viral (first hand) content, it would be great for the club if folks were eagerly looking to P&Y for a regular podcast, etc. That would drive recruitment and the mission better than any other method I could imagine.

As it is, viewed in the grander social context, P&Y is hiding its light under a bushel basket.

From: rooselk
02-Feb-18
Owl, a P&Y podcast that came out on a regular basis is an outstanding idea! I'd love to see this happen!

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-18
Charlie, the CBA recommends P&Y rules because the CBA folks respect P&Y and understand that what they do is valuable, and wants to maintain consistency for record-keeping purposes. But P&Y was not involved in any way with the lighted nock effort, nor with the crossbow effort (to my knowledge - someone correct me if I'm mistaken). CPW doesn't give a hoot about P&Y because P&Y has no presence or visibility with them. CBA is the voice of bowhunters, speaks out at the meetings, attends Sportsman's Roundtables, fights for our seasons and methods, and fought crossbows here. At the most recent Sportsman's Roundtable with top CPW folks, I looked at the sign-in sheet and no one represented P&Y. I have never heard anyone who stated they represented P&Y speak out at any season structure public hearing. So I'm not sure what P&Y does to "protect our bowhunting seasons". If you know of some specific examples, please enlighten because I'm honestly interested to know.

From: Ambush
02-Feb-18
There has been several mentions that the record keeping aspect of P&Y is a definite inhibiter to maintaining or increasing membership and to becoming more relevant. Can someone explain why?

Lot's of fodder here for the leadership to chew on at meetings, for sure.

02-Feb-18
I'm with Rod. I hear that all the time and have even said it myself, but Why? Nearly everyone talks about score, especially in the whitetail world. Why is the record keeping and Net score especially, such a turnoff??

02-Feb-18
Owl, your second point and explanation are spot on.

From: keepemsharp
02-Feb-18
The P&Y could have helped us here in KS in our LOOONG battle with crossguns but they did not.

From: Owl
02-Feb-18
Speaking for myself, requiring me to enter a record book goes against values I hold much more dearly than P&Y structural morays. I'm speaking of modesty and humility. So, when I see I have to enter animals to get full voting, P&Y is giving me a stiff-arm. Frankly, it was a non-starter for a long time. It also loudly signals to the "average bowhunter" that filling their freezer using a bow is nothing more than plebeian. That's a horribly offensive and counterproductive by-law for a purported advocacy group and, yet, it's undeniably built into the structure of the club.

Now, I understand the rationalization presented: the record requirement is meant to be aspirational and the multi-species requirement is meant to direct people to seek bowhunting adventures (that's a significant aspect of our heritage) but the multitude of folks won't engage on that level initially. And so, they are summarily lost and P&Y is relegated to boundaries defined by its own discretion.

From: Owl
02-Feb-18
I'll follow that I don't believe P&Y is meant to include all bowhunters. And that has its benefits. TD hit that point dead nuts. I also happen to believe the club could recruit on that basis. After all, humans are psychologically built to seek tribes and exclude.

From: Owl
02-Feb-18
Ike, given the popularity and veracity of viral content, that would be my priority #1. P&Y is uniquely positioned to give amazing value to bowhunters and, in turn, itself.

From: Buffalo1
02-Feb-18
Many years ago when crossbows were beginning to take a toehold in the bowhunting arena there was a move to incorporate crossbows into the archery only season in Mississippi. The use of crossbows would be for those hunters outside of physical disabilities requirements. The Mississippi Bowhunters Association took on to battle to prevent this legislation from passing and was successful for a couple of legislative years.

As time passed, the battle grew fiercer and fiercer. The Mississippi Bowhunters Association continued to counter the attempt. The crossbow industry began to court the legislature and hired lobbyist companies.

As a member of the Mississippi Bowhunter Association I was involved in the inclusion of the crossbow in the archery only season. As a member of P&Y, I contacted the P&Y headquarters and cried out for supportive help to battle crossbows being included in the archery season. Since the P&Y was very vocal in being anti-crossbow and had a position statement concerning the use of crossbows, I felt sure they would surely help the Mississippi bow hunters.

The P&Y corporate office told me that P&Y did not really get involved in political issues. It was almost like my request for help had been misunderstood. Being persistent, I called BS and challenged the response I received. I finally got a letter from P&Y stating that P&Y did not support crossbows. The P&Y letter was included in Mississippi Bowhunters Association opposition package. I was thankful to get the letter, but at the same time, I question why P&Y’s was apprehensive in joining in a battle of something the P&Y stated in writing they were against. Fortunately, the crossbow inclusion in the archery season failed that legislative term.

The next legislative year the Mississippi Bowhunters Association again faced the same battle of opposing the crossbow in archery season. I called P&Y headquarters and heard the same response that P&Y does not get involved in political activities. I again call BS and reminded P&Y headquarters that P&Y had provided a position statement the year prior and we needed another statement from them. I received the requested letter without as much resistance. Unfortunately, the opposition ramped up more courting of the legislature and more lobbying efforts and was successful with their efforts. Crossbows were thereafter included unrestricted in archery season.

I have provided the above background information to make this point- talking a good game is one thing, but actually getting involved in the game is another thing. When the situation was real, P&Y did not want really to get involved and really did little to help in the situation.

I appreciate what other hunting organizations are do in keeping it’s membership informed of anti-hunting activity and anti-conservation measures. I receive organization email blasts almost weekly of challenges, victories and defeats in these measures.

I would love to see P&Y’s get serious and get involved in all bowhunting and conservation matters, legislative or otherwise that are opposed to the positions and stances that P&Y. What do anti-bow hunters organizations and/or equipment manufacturers producing equipment that is in opposition to P&Y’s position have to fear of P&Y? Would seeing evidence that P&Y is actually doing something in fighting anti-hunting and other areas that are in opposition to P&Y positions help to encourage membership retention and growth?

From: Ambush
02-Feb-18
Would people be more at ease if you could have voting privileges if you had one certified bow kill. Any big game species of any sex. I realize that a good number of hunters live where whitetail and turkey may be the only huntable species and a P&Y buck only a dream. But the “kill rule” does serve to keep anti hunters or even anti trophy hunting hunters out of the mix. One or two strategically placed anti’s posing as hunters can create a lot of turmoil. Just look at the crap we can kick up on here amongst like minded real hunters!

Maybe P&Y needs to have a venue to accept and “honor” first timers with their kill.

I don’t care who you are or what you say, people like to be recognized. People are hard wired to “display” and to me that’s a good thing. Because if it’s something we want to be acknowledged for it’s usually something that is widely accepted as “good”. Even the geek that eats vegan, watches no sports and seldom leaves the mall displays “trophyism” by standing in line for forty eight hours so he can run out of the store with the first IPhone 10 waving in his soft, little white hands.

Maybe instead of treating the Record Book like the embarrassing family member everybody cringes around, we should find its strengths and put them to work.

From: bentshaft
02-Feb-18
We're fighting a gun that shots an arrow (airbow) being included in Virginia's archery season. It would be nice if P&Y would help in that. If they don't get involved in political issues, how do they do anything for bowhunting? Hunting is legislated, a political process. I'm a first year member of Pope and Young and this will be my last year. I joined to support a club that supports bowhunting...I don't see any relevance. My money is best spent somewhere else.

From: Doug C.
03-Feb-18
Being a 501(c)3 non-profit organization is the short answer as to why P&Y doesn't actively engage in political issues. That is a prohibited action.

P&Y was the driving force behind the creation of the NABC (North American Bowhunting Coalition), and for the several years, though it also wasn't "active", it was a vehicle for all state bowhunting orgs to communicate with each other over common issues. They held a national meeting at the conclusion of the P&Y convention as many members were already present. That way, instead of having to reinvent the wheel as it were on an issue, one state could contact another on how they dealt with a topic. NY state bowhunters had a very strong anti-cross bow program that they freely shared with other states.

Unfortunately the NABC faltered and no longer is in existence.

From: Buffalo1
03-Feb-18
Great point Doug. That is why organizations, institutions and entities chose to operate under different umbrellas of incorporation to accomplish their goals, objectives and missions.

This is why the guidance and direction of good tax lawyers and accountants come into play in setting up different incorporations under a parent umbrella.

From: GhostBird
03-Feb-18
Thanks for pointing that out Doug. Never thought about the restrictions of a non-profit org. Makes a lot of sense in the context of these ongoing discussions.

From: Buffalo1
03-Feb-18

Buffalo1's embedded Photo
NRA Voting Eligibility Requirements.
Buffalo1's embedded Photo
NRA Voting Eligibility Requirements.
So hunting season is over and I'm on my annual "house arrest" till all needed inside and outside job assignments are completed.

It was cold and windy today, so I decided to take on some inside chores. One of the chores was to go through my magazine stack and throw out read and non-keepers. As I was thumbing through my Feb 2018 edition of American Hunter magazine, I discover a NRA ballot and rules for voting. The ballot is for the board of directors candidates which is the governing body for the NRA. Found the member voting requirements to be interesting:

1. Must be a NRA member five or more consecutive years

2. Must be at least 18 yrs. old or by 50 days prior to the annual meeting

3. Must be a citizen of the US

Each eligible member is entitled to can a ballot for each vacancy on the board.

I found these simple requirements to be in stark contrast to P&Y voting requirements. Wondering what are others thoughts?

From: Glunt@work
03-Feb-18
I'm not a lawyer or tax pro but 501c3 are allowed to weigh in on political issues and lobby for issues I believe. The restriction is on supporting candidates in elections.

03-Feb-18
I think Glunt is right on that.

Owl, I'm a P&Y member and enter my qualifying animals into the record book and I my hunting is not based off of self-aggrandizing. I kill 4-5 animals a year and usually the majority are female or 1 year olds for the freezer.

From: Jaquomo
03-Feb-18
I don't understand how testifying in a public meeting on behalf of the premier national bowhunting organization to a state wildlife commission about crossbows, season structures, etc.. would be considered "political"?

From: JSW
03-Feb-18
This has been an interesting exercise with some good ideas but plenty of misconceptions. First off, all you enjoy today, in the way of preferred timeframes, special tags and lengthy seasons are a direct result of the bowhunting wing of NFAA, which morphed into P&Y and joint efforts from state and local organizations. All of which was accomplished by the same people who supported all of the above. These organizations worked hard from the 1950’s to the 1990’s to create what you have today. Our Records Program was established to show bowhunting could be an effective management tool and it has worked as expected. Sometime over the last decade or so, bowhunters have forgotten what it takes to maintain what these bowhunting pioneers gave their heart and soul to create. A 501 C3 charitable organization is not allowed to lobby, support or oppose legislation or influence elections. To do so would result in loss of charitable status, which means donations are not tax deductable. It can also cause the loss of nonprofit status, which would require the organization to pay taxes, that would be devastating. There are some gray areas that allow us to present policy statements or provide testimony that might influence certain things and we are very careful on how we approach these issues. Because of this rule, P&Y established the NABC, like Doug mentioned, similar to what NRA does with their ILA or SCI does with their SCI Foundation. NABC fought diligently alongside state organizations fighting against allowing crossbows in bow seasons and was very effective until our partners (and probably a few of us) got complacent and mostly just gave up. The whole concept fizzled do to lack of participation. Coincidentally, when the NABC fizzled, the crossbow lobby stepped in and took over. All of us, including each of you on bowsite are responsible for crossbows being legal in many bow seasons. (I apologize to the 10 or so people who actually tried to stop it but I’m trying to make a point). We simply didn’t work hard enough to keep it from happening. There is no better example of why we all need to support and work with local, state and national organizations that support our cause. If we had had the support of just 10% of bowhunters nationwide, maybe we could have made a difference. What did P&Y do to stop the airbow issue in Virginia. Nothing. I didn’t hear about the legislation until I saw it on bowsite. Aside from not being asked to help, we don’t have enough support of the bowhunting community to have the resources to do what needs to be done. If we had been asked to help, we would have done something. Probably not enough under the circumstances, but we would have acted. I accept that over the years P&Y may have lost its way; gotten too concerned with equipment issues and alienated people. We could have done better. Today, we are trying to do better and need as much support as we can to get this done. We have to get past the “they pissed me off once” mind set and all come together to work toward a common goal. NRA pisses me off regularly but I’m still a rabid supporter. If they don’t do it, who will? If P&Y can’t do it, who will? Don’t like the membership structure? Become a member and lobby for change. Just because you don’t have an instant vote on Club issues doesn’t mean your voice isn’t heard. Every single idea brought to me by any member is presented to the Board with the exception of allowing crossbows. Crossbow hunting is not bowhunting. People use BHA as an example. I’m very suspect of an organization that is obviously more preservationist than conservationist. We need more access and more opportunity, not less. We need to keep a very close eye on what they promote. I wonder, does the average BHA member have any say on policy? Does the average RMEF member have any say? You only have influence when you are willing to get involved.

From: Dotman
04-Feb-18
Longtime bowsite lurker here but this thread pushed me to join. I’m 37 and ave hunted all of my life, had a 4 year run as the chairman of the Kansas City RMEF chapter. Life member of RMEF, BHA, NRA and general member of WSF. Was a nonresident member of the CBA for a few years and considered P&Y at one point.

I personally was turned off by the elitist application system when I looked into it and I stopped being a member of CBA as I didn’t feel it really grasped what the membership voiced. What I’m getting at is that I’ll probably never join the P&Y, our hunting heritage has never in our history needed all hunters to work together to fight for our continued right to hunt, with threats to public land and closing of hunting (griz in BC), we have never needed a larger voice then we need now. For me P&Y does nothing to support retaining our hunting heritage and public lands, it is caught up on stick and string only and seems like a vast majority of those that actually run the group believe they are more ethical then other groups using legal means to hunt.

But the largest reason I will not join, it’s too small of an org to provide any actual difference, at 6000 members it is nothing more to me then a boys club, so my money will continue to go to organizations that support my overall desire, protecting our rights to hunt (all forms), wildlife conservation and retention of public lands for future generations to actually hunt on.

Back in the 1960’s any kid could just hunt on a neighbors property or any farmers property, today the largest hinderance to getting millennial lbs and our youth into hunting is access to land and cost of participation. Any organization that doesn’t understand this will slowly fade away with time as their older members die out.

I agree with Lou, in 15 ears there will probably not be a P&Y club but a larger organization will probably own their record books and Johnny Morris the museum pieces. Maybe it’s not too late for P&Y to recognize it’s failing Bowhunting and turn around it’s overall mission of being an inclusive group fighting for Bowhunters, access to land to hunt and stop believing that 30 year members are more important then 1st war members. Until then it’ll always be considered a good old boys club that others see zero value in and that their money is better spent else where.

Sorry for any misspelling or incoherent rants, I’m posting this from my phone as I rarely use a computer when not at work, it’s the times we live in ??

From: Dotman
04-Feb-18
Oh and I also find it funny, Karla a ranking member I would gather, doesn’t understand how unethical and inappropriate it was to post anything sent in confidence by another, especially when not sent to her directly.

If this is how “ethical” senior or high ranking members of P&an act that well, disappointing.

Todd posted a very well thought out reply but it also seemed to lack understanding of a d sure to find a way without paying a consultant to do anything. Where are the wed developers members that can donate time to improve an out dated website? My 7 year old can create and send a mass email, why can’t this org do the same? Maybe in a desire to look down on hunting technology, like my father, they also look down on technology used in daily life, again like my parents ??

From: Glunt@work
04-Feb-18
The Humane Society of the United States is a 501c3. They have a legislative action segment on their web site for State and Federal issues.

I read up a bit on it. My understanding is there is a somewhat gray area as to how much a 501c3 can lobby. It can't be a "substantial" part of its activities. On legislation, they can educate, distribute informative materials, or testify if asked by the legislative body. Basically, advocating is ok and unlimited, lobbying specifically on a piece of legislation is limited. Rule or regulation changes not tied directly to legislative process are fair game.

From: Owl
04-Feb-18
"Owl, I'm a P&Y member and enter my qualifying animals into the record book and I my hunting is not based off of self-aggrandizing."

Ike, I have no doubt that is the case. I am going to send you a PM.

From: jstephens61
04-Feb-18
This thread, IMO, is a perfect example of why managing a national organization is an impossible task. Each and every person has an opinion on what the most important issue is based on their personal experience. There isn’t a organization or club out there that is a catch all. Pope & Young covers my bowhunting. RMEF protects hunting land and habitat. NRA is the watchdog for the Second Amendment. To expect one club to do it all is unrealistic. I don’t always agree with everything that the organizations I belong to do, but I continue my membership because I believe in the core mission. Everyone has an excuse for why they don’t join an organization, until it’s too late. Let’s keep quibbling amongst ourselves, the antis love it.

From: Franzen
04-Feb-18
I find it odd that someone would "join" Bowsite just to post a rant on how they don't want to join P&Y, and maybe a little childish. Hunting with one weapon or another doesn't mean a person is more a less "ethical", and I highly doubt the vast majority of members believe they are more ethical simply for hunting with a bow. Do members hunt with a bow because they feel it presents a bigger challenge than other methods? Yes, some do I imagine, but the beauty of it is that everyone has their own reason for doing so. Are there some members that are pretty "proud" of themselves? I am certain there are, just as there are in all walks of life, clubs, sports, etc., but I haven't noticed it being any more prevalent with P&Y based on my interactions (which admittedly are limited). I will tell you that there are some members that are also more humble than I could imagine being.

Quick story. I was walking the vendor display at the Convention in St. Louis. I don't have any plans to do any guided hunts any time soon, but was walking by one of the outfitters' booth and happened to to start up a conversation with the guy. We stood there and chatted about a number of different things; some bowhunting some not. After about 10 minutes or so another gentleman walked up. It was a guy some of you may have heard of. His name... Chuck Adams.

Did I feel a little out place standing there. Actually I did, but it wasn't because of anything Chuck did. I wouldn't say that I was star struck or anything, because I don't feel like I'm that type of person, but I just remember thinking to myself "That is Chuck Adams right there and this is pretty darn cool." He sure as hell didn't tell me to go take a hike or anything.

I swear sometimes people are just looking for a reason to be offended.

From: Bou'bound
04-Feb-18
I swear sometimes people are just looking for a reason to be offended.

..............or a reason to offend someone

From: jstephens61
04-Feb-18
Franzen, if you’re alluding to me, thinking I was offended, then you missed the point. I made it to St Louis on Sunday morning and the place was almost deserted. Was not looking to be star struck. Have met most of the people in Archery that I’ve wanted to meet. Have a great day.

04-Feb-18
Sounds like P&Y's original mission was to establish bows and bowhunting as a valid wildlife management tool....... they were very successful I would say. There is no need to beat that drum any longer, so now what is the best way to reinvent the mission?

I am not a member but have visited them in Chatfield and made direct financial contributions to their kitty. I have followed the posts closely, looking for a reason to join. I do not like complexity, with one check I and two of my children became life members of the NRA.

From: Franzen
04-Feb-18
No that was not in reference to you jstephens.

From: Glunker
04-Feb-18
I read lots of excuses and rationalizing. A particular situation that is a specific example is how the NRA lobbied for crossbow inclusion into the WI archery season and where was my P & Y Club? Crossbows won in a landslide.

04-Feb-18
Many here Glunker do not care if crossbows are included in your states archery season, they just do not want them in their states archery season. Makes it tough for a National organization to have an opinion.

From: Dotman
04-Feb-18
Franzen, it’s not odd, I have lurked here for 5 years, was a member at the beginning of that period but lost my pin and just decided to lurk.

Many of the guys posting here know my user name from other forums. I just wanted to post my thought as a nonmember, but I can tell the old guard of P&Y such as you could careless about seeing the org succeed.

From: Trial153
04-Feb-18
Tim, good to have you join in.

From: Buffalo1
04-Feb-18
Thanks Jim for your comments, honesty and openness.

I agree with you- you can't win by quitting or never joining. A log is not split on first chop.

From: wildlifex
05-Feb-18
Lou , forgive me for being late to the table. I was at the CTAS banquet this weekend , good times. I was appointed by the governor to the HPP committee many years ago. ( HPP-we oversee sportsman's dollars on habitat projects and assist with game management objectives. cpw.state/hpp ) I was appointed to represent CBA and P/Y on HPP committee. Over the last 28 years of being on the board I have attended dozens of meeting a year. Yes , I was at the meeting last week. Many times it is my responsibility to report and not to react. Pat and I have exchanged emails after the meeting.

On my two terms as 2nd VP on the Pope and Young I had many goals , one was to pass the lighted knock issue . Why you ask , good question . There is a lady in my town with an archery shop that would not join CBA because we did not support lighted knock at that time. I knew if P/Y changed it's view so would the CBA, the rest is history.

The second task was to change the time to become a regular member from 14 years to 10. I petitioned for 5 years and had to compromise at 10. The P/Y board sometimes moves slow but you need to know that everyone of the board members are very dedicated and truly believe in the club. It is a lot of time and commitment being on the board and I encourage anyone that wishes to make changes to get off their soapbox and run for office. Someone made the comment that the board was old traditional shooters .My time on the board it was 50/50 traditional vs compound and we had some great young minds on the team . By the way,the club is 90% compound shooters and it does not matter, we are brothers n arms and we better learn to stick together. Proud Member of Pope and Young John Gardner

05-Feb-18
It always amazes me that non-members project this "high-and-mighty" arrogance onto the club and its members. I've been a member for about 5 years now and have been to two conferences and my experience has been that everyone from the board down have been nothing but down-to-earth guys that are passionate about bowhunting. I've spoken with just about everyone who's recognizable as a "name" in bowhunting and they've all been gracious and the humility I've seen has been notable. In Arizona, I happened to get seated between a Fred Bear Society member who is also famous in the non-hunting world and on the other side, was a new WR holder. These guys couldn't have been any nicer.

From: Mad Trapper
05-Feb-18
Ike x 2

From: TD
06-Feb-18
x3.

From: Mark Watkins
06-Feb-18
Ike nailed it perfectly!

thank you!

Mark

From: Shug
06-Feb-18
https://www.facebook.com/tom.miranda.370/videos/1767854573520329/

From: Shug
06-Feb-18

Shug's Link

From: Trial153
06-Feb-18
I agree, all bowhunters step up to plate and be members.

06-Feb-18
I offered to pay for 10 new people to join and I have not had one PM yet. The offer is still good. Join and be heard.

From: Boreal
06-Feb-18
I've been a member for 5 years. I received my renewal notice in the mail yesterday. This morning I renewed online for 3 years.

From: Dotman
06-Feb-18
I guess maybe I’m still confused as to what my money would help? I also don’t see how someone paying for my membership attracts me to the club? Personally I think that money is better spent donating directly, it still seems to me that the P&Y club doesn’t do anything other the record keep and hold an annual banquet. As was stated above they don’t do anything to fight for Bowhunting rights so as to not lose their nonprofit status.

Maybe this was already cleared up and I just missed it. How is it that BHA, RMEF, WSF, SCI etc all have the ability to fight for their causes and P&Y doesn’t?

I would have loved to see P&Y stand up to the KS crossbow initiative, which to me was just a change in legal weapons not politics. I enjoy shooting trad and compound but just because I do that I don’t see why support an org that also likes it and only sets guidelines on manner of take for a record book yet doesn’t directly do anything to keep Bowhunting alive and well in any legal aspect.

From: Dotman
06-Feb-18
Maybe this will help, when I google the club all I get are guidelines for record book acceptance.

https://pope-young.org/bowhunting/position_statement.asp

07-Feb-18
My point is join and use your voice. Personally, I would simply like more people involved. It is our club. If we don’t like the direction, join, vote, and influence the direction of the club.

It is up to us.

The club could use the passion on this forum to make it better for all of us.

From: Biker
07-Feb-18
SAD u cant even give away the memberships these days , To be honest NOT one person above including myself would be a member IF OUR NAMES WERE NOT INCLUDED IN THE RECORD BOOKS! LETS stop the NONSENSE BULL CRAP , that we do it to Honor the animal. WE enter animals we have killed with archery gear cause it gives the hunter a satisfaction of being successful. Would today's bow hunting survive without PY l YES !!!! Years ago the club was instrumental in getting a archery season for us . PY club today has no pull no weight its just about the animal entries , The club has not stopped one xbox season in our archery seaason , And funny how the PY accepts support from companies that sell xbox gear in there archery catalog. Were are the PY lobbyist trying to help today's bow hunters ..There are no PY lobbyist , the club does very little for the millions of bow hunters . Years ago the club had a very hi and mighty look about themselves , this never attracted the avg bow hunter across America. If you spoke to most bow hunters they were under the impression you needed to have a animal in the books to be a member, The PY failed the Avg bow hunter many years ago with its approach towards bow hunting. The PY club only honors a certain size animal this for many avg bow hunters does not exist in there area. The club itself pushed away the common bow hunter in choice of finding a few that trophy hunters . PY club has less then 6000 members . Only 6000 members among the millions. How can a club like this do anything for the avg bow hunter. Take the PY club for what it really is a way to show off our trophy kills among the few that care about this stuff. Strange how today's hunters only care about a score yet dont even bother to become members ??? Strange how so many hunters enter a animal join for a year and then disappear .

07-Feb-18
Yes they are honoring the hunters, not the animals. The animals have no emotion, no comprehension, and in fact are dead, there is no honor for them to seek value from. The hunters on the other hand get their name printed and recognized by all who care. The more entries, the more discussions and recognition. I have no issue with that concept but it is important to be truthful and face reality.

How many hunting celebrities routinely post the number of P&Y animals they have killed in their ads? That honors the individual hunter, not the individual animals. Myles Keller was a master at it.

From: otcWill
07-Feb-18
"To be honest NOT one person above including myself would be a member IF OUR NAMES WERE NOT INCLUDED IN THE RECORD BOOKS! LETS stop the NONSENSE BULL CRAP"

You couldn't be more wrong about that one sir. I support the club and always will. I shoot at least 1 if not a handful of critters that would make PnY minimums every season and I've never entered anything. I'm not a huge fan of the records keeping side of things but I am a huge fan of bowhunting.

From: SBH
07-Feb-18
Eric- That is a cool and generous offer. I will take you up on it. PM sent. Thanks Matt

From: pav
07-Feb-18
"To be honest NOT one person above including myself would be a member IF OUR NAMES WERE NOT INCLUDED IN THE RECORD BOOKS! LETS stop the NONSENSE BULL CRAP"

Yeah, I'm absolutely calling bunk on that one too! Killed my first P&Y whitetail in 1991, entered it in the book...but did not actually join the P&Y Club until more than a decade later. Been a member ever since. Today, I regret not joining earlier in life....but having an animal in the record book had zero influence on my decision to join the Club.

07-Feb-18
I have personally only entered one animal and have taken over 30 that will qualify. I am not a fan of record books in general because it drives some behaviors that I do not like. I measured a caribou hunt for a gentleman in Newfoundland. It was smaller than he thought it was. He was thrilled with his hunt until the animal was scored. After I gave him the score he kicked the animal and walked away disgusted. All of a sudden a great hunt was now terrible, even the food.

I wanted to kick him.

In any event, I do understand the money the record book brings in helps other causes.

To each his own when it comes to record books.

From: Ollie
07-Feb-18
Why do some of you expect the Pope and Young club, along with other national organizations, to fight YOUR local battles? What are you doing? If you don't care enough to be leading the fight then why should others do the fighting for you when they don't live or hunt in your state? Pope and Young fought long and hard to keep crossbows out of archery-only hunting seasons. Pope and Young does a lot more than register bow kills. Those of you who think otherwise are just plain ignorant of the organization and what it has done in the past.

From: Biker
07-Feb-18
Eric u could not be more correct with that last post !! OTCwill I respect that but in reality u are what i call a 1%er . But I myself have been guilty of what i posted. Example send a kill pic of a large critter to friends most come back Whats it score !!!! send a pic of a avg or sub trophy critter and most wont even acknowledge it . We live in a world were its become Look at Me ! Like i said im guilty of this also , Killing big PY critters exhibits were as bow hunters are at the top of our game ! This is all fine but please lets not hide behind the facts ... Also OTCWILL why not enter your animals and honor it pay the 35 dollars AND NOT ENTER YOUR NAME AS THE HUNTER???

From: Ambush
07-Feb-18
It's a bit ironic that people that claim that scores mean nothing often try to prove it by saying they have "P&Y" class animals but don't enter them. You're still measuring and comparing to a "trophy" standard set by P&Y. How do you know it qualifies unless you measured it and used the criteria set out by P&Y? How often do you hear someone say they got a "Book" buck or bull? That's just another way of keeping score.

Everybody committed and passionate about any activity, be it hunting, football or chess, keeps scores and measures success by numbers. As a person becomes better at an activity that they are passionate about, they start measuring their proficiency against those that are "farther along". Milestones are important points in our lives that we look back at for inspiration for the future. Many people who accomplish (relatively) great things were inspired by others that have gone before them and left a legacy of achievement.

But the plain truth is, everything in life is measured!! From bank rolls to bass.

From: Boreal
07-Feb-18
Good to see you posting again Louis.

From: Dotman
07-Feb-18
Ollie, that’s just more vague information. If you want people to actually learn more about P&Y why call them ignorant when al they see is a recording keeping org, why not back up your vague response with actual facts as to what P&Y is doing for archers today. Whenever this org is questioned I just see members get upset, name call or just ignore the question.

It really would be nice to know what the org does for today’s archers. If the record book disappeared tomorrow how many current members would remain?

SBH I hope you honor Eric and remain a member and don’t just take a free one year membership.

From: hogthief
07-Feb-18
I just grew out of my membership. I have my name in the book, and that was cool 30 years ago. I was a member since 86 and enjoyed my time with the club, but I really don't care anything about going to Greenland and hunting Muskox, or spending a couple months salary on an elk trip. I just like chasing whitetails with my sharp stick on my own little piece of property. The club started to make me feel like since I wasn't BIG in the world of bowhunting my opinions didn't mean too much. I tried to get an exemption to move up to regular status due to longevity, but that would have required a by-laws change. I'm not going to go kill a pronghorn or a bear just so I can "improve" my status with the club. I wish them all the luck in the world, but I didn't renew my membership last year. I'm taking that time and money and volunteering my abilities with kids that are interested. If they get the hankerin' to be a BIG bowhunter - great! I hope P&Y is a good fit for them.

From: Trial153
07-Feb-18
Well it’s Sure seems that our club developed an identity problem since we as members seem to having a hard time defining. If we can’t explain it amongst ourselves how can we explain it to potentially new members. I think the leadership in the last few years that have taken a more progressive and foward thinking stance needs to be supported.

07-Feb-18

Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Charlie Rehor's embedded Photo
Dotman: I posted this above but I’ll add it again. With more members we could do more of this!

If any of you spent 10 minutes at the Bowsite “Meet & Greet” at the bi-annual P&Y Convention your position would likely change. Join us in Omaha in April 2019.

From: Dotman
07-Feb-18
Since I live in KC I may consider attending in Omaha, do you have to be a member to attend?

From: Rock
07-Feb-18
Dotman, membership is not required to attend the convention and you will be welcomed with open arms. If while attending you decide to join then that will be greatly appreciated and you will again be welcomed with open arm. It really is a great time hanging out with like minded people and talking Bowhunting, there will be great seminars along with the Bowsite meet and greet..

07-Feb-18
Excited about it being in Omaha again as it is just across the river for me. yeehaw. Time goes by so fast during those conventions. Geesh. Lots of fun. I hope that this next convention will be the most well attended ever. I think the last time it was in Omaha it obtained that achievement. But think it was beat by the convention in Minnesota? Anyway, can't wait. Another 14 months. lol

07-Feb-18
Again, it's a club. P&Y is not RMEF which was formed specifically for the advancement of elk species through habitat preservation and improvement. P&Y is the premier bowhunting club in the US. An important part of P&Y's history was advocating for archery seasons, but we have them now. Sure, I do believe that the club could be more active in advocating for protecting those seasons, but it's still a club. If you want to join with other like-minded individuals who are passionate about bowhunting, then P&Y is a great club to join. That's why I joined. I had no knowledge of P&Y's charity work and it had nothing to do with my wanting to join. I joined because I wanted to be in a club with people just like me. The advancement of the sport is a bonus.

From: Ollie
07-Feb-18
"If you want people to actually learn more about P&Y why call them ignorant when al they see is a recording keeping org, why not back up your vague response with actual facts as to what P&Y is doing for archers today." Why should I do your homework for you? Some people don't want to learn anything and expect to be spoon fed by others. They only want to hear stuff which helps support their ill-informed opinion. I am not a P&Y member but am aware of the good work they have done over the years. You don't have to look long or hard to find out the good stuff they have done.

07-Feb-18
To those of you who are supportive members but don't enter your animals because it isn't your thing I get that, but I look at entering my animals as another way of supporting P&Y since the record book is still a large part of the organization as has been pointed out both positively and negatively. Does it matter to me or anyone else if I enter the 20000th whitetail that scores 125 1/8", absolutely not, but every entry generates more revenue for the club which in turn could eventually equate to more paid positions to work towards achieving some of the many great suggestions that have been brought up on this thread.

Reality though is there are very few paid positions within the organization. Rick Mowery has his hands in many facets of day to day operation and promotion of the club through Social Media, etc, but one guy trying to do multiple jobs gets spread too thin. And regardless of how dedicated you are to something if it is on a volunteer basis there is only so much time in the day.

This thread has been mostly positive imo and has had some great discussion. I have been involved with the membership committee for several years and honestly can't give a great answer to some of the concerns/questions that have been brought forth. For me I support P&Y because bowhunting is what I love, it is what I live for, and the people that I have met simply because I have attended and participated in P&Y conventions is invaluable to me so I will continue to support them even when I don't agree with everything. I am sure I am not the only one that appreciates the passion that has ensured on this thread regardless of if you are Pro P&Y or think the ship has sunk, so thank you to everyone that has taken time to comment.

Matt

From: MuleyBum
10-Feb-18
"People use BHA as an example. I’m very suspect of an organization that is obviously more preservationist than conservationist. We need more access and more opportunity, not less. We need to keep a very close eye on what they promote."

Our public lands are under assault and the president of P&Y comes to this forum and spews nonsense like this. In my opinion, a statement like this is a symptom that partially explains as to why P&Y finds itself ailing today. BHA is at the forefront of the fight to defend our public lands. As a result BHA has doubled its membership in the past year. Moreover, BHA attracts young members. Here in Montana, for example, BHA has student chapters at both state universities. By contrast the average P&Y member is much older and its membership rolls remain stagnant. P&Y certainly put out a statement claiming to defend our public lands. But that so far has been the extent of the organization's involvement with the issue. Could P&Y do more on this and other issues even with it's limited resources? Absolutely! For one, it could mobilize it's membership on any number of issues. This is something in which BHA excells and P&Y would certainly do well to learn from them. But for whatever reason P&Y instead chooses to issue nice sounding statements and then sit on it's hands and do nothing.

I have been a P&Y associate / general member since 2006. But that will end later this year when my membership comes up for renewal. I simply see no useful purpose in remaining in an organization that does virtually nothing to address the critical issues of our day while at the same time raising doubts about those who are on the front lines engaged in those issues. The post by the P&Y president has been a moment of clarity of clarity for me, and for that I am grateful. I will now make a $40 donation to BHA that would have otherwise been used for my P&Y membership renewal.

From: Jaquomo
10-Feb-18
BHA and P&Y have different agendas. Both worthy. I don't see BHA with a position on the crossbow issue or advocating for longer and more liberal hunting seasons. BHA is appealing to an entirely different demographic, including a large segment who don't hunt and some who may be closet anti-hunters.

As far as Jim's statement about BHA, let's take a step back. Our Colorado Parks and Wildlife folks cite accessibility to animals by aging hunters as one big contributor to attrition of older hunters. BHA promotes more roadless areas, which is great when you're 28 years old, but not so much when you're 63 with joints that have trekked thousands of mountain miles carrying a pack since you were that idealistic young pup. I know - I was like that too at 28.

So yes, roadless is critical, preservation in the face of transfer threats is critical, but BHA doesn't have bowhunting on the radar screen except to recruit bowhunters into the fold (although there are many bowhunters who are members, including Ivan James, just as there are many backpackers who are P&Y members). P&Y and BHA are not an either-or choice. Important, but different goals.

From: Trial153
10-Feb-18
I agree the comments on BHA is troubling.

From: Buffalo1
10-Feb-18
What is BHA an abbreviation for?

From: Trial153
10-Feb-18

Trial153's Link
Backcountry Hunters and Anglers.

From: JSW
10-Feb-18
My comments about BHA were my personal opinions and have nothing to do with P&Y. My concerns revolve around their very beginnings. Some people I respect greatly thought that some of their founders were more closely aligned with anti hunters than with us. That has clouded my opinion from day one. I didn't research this personally but I would be interested if someone did. I hope I will be proved wrong.

When it's all said and done, BHA might be the best thing to ever happen. Aside from my personal reservations I can say that there have been conversations to do something jointly between BHA and P&Y. We have plenty in common.

Public access is a huge concern to all of us. I don't discount that for a minute but I didn't like the way BHA aligned themselves with every other anti hunting entity with the recent monument decisions. Every bowhunter I know from Utah was against the National Monument designations in their state and how it effects hunting. They claimed it decreased access and decreased opportunities and had the potential of cutting us out of the picture in some areas. That's why the preservation comment.

BHA thinks changing the designation of these lands from monument back to BLM was a disaster. Right now I see some of BHA's policies more aligned with Sierra Club than with bowhunters. This is what I see today and has nothing to do with P&Y. I'm not opposed to BHA but I don't agree with everything they do.

You can make your own decision on which organizations you join but I'm fairly certain BHA won't do anything to keep crossbows out of our western bow seasons. Mark my word, that will happen if we don't do what we can to stop it. P&Y used to be very effective at doing this but because of our own internal problems and complacency in all of us, we are losing ground. It's time to take back the conversation and whether you agree or not, P&Y is ready to lead that effort. Stay tuned.

From: MuleyBum
10-Feb-18
JSW, Whether or not it is your intention, you continue to spread untruths about BHA. The truth is that BHA was founded by a small group of dedicated hunters in Oregon. The primary founder was a Republican who was a member of a conservation organization that focused on retaining and preserving the GOP's conservation legacy that dated back back to the time of Theodore Roosevelt. The nonsense you're repeating is just a rehash of the "Green Decoy" smear spread by an AstroTurf organization aligned and funded by the extraction industry. As to Utah, it can't have escaped your attention that it is the politicians in that state that are heavily aligned with the efforts to ultimately privatize our public lands. By your remarks you have shown hand and revealed where you stand on the issue of public lands. Here is my P&Y membership number: A2006092603. I request that my name be removed from the P&Y membership roll effective immediately. I cannot in good conscience remain a member of an organization who's president slanders those who are working tirelessly on behalf of our public lands. But not to worry: perhaps you can recruit Cliven Bundy or one of his cohorts to take my place since your sympathies obviously lie closer to them than members of BHA.

From: Jaquomo
10-Feb-18

Jaquomo's Link
In case you're interested in where BHA's funding comes from, and where their alliances lie. The same organizations that fund Greenpeace, Sierra Club, and other far-left eco groups that would just as soon see public lands closed to ALL hunters, not just bowhunters.

From: MuleyBum
10-Feb-18
Jaquomo, I was wondering when that "Green Decoys" link was going to show up. Although this attack was answered long ago, let me suggest that you might want to continue your research, starting with looking into the funding behind the AstroTurf organization that made this accusation.

From: JSW
10-Feb-18
"By your remarks you have shown hand and revealed where you stand on the issue of public lands." Rich, Take a chill pill. You couldn't be more wrong about me. I think Bundy should be in jail for steeling from all of us. The feds had every right to confiscate his cattle to pay his debts. Those who showed up to protect his interests should have been jailed for obstruction. I also think every acre of public land should remain public. Just because I questions the words and actions of certain organizations doesn't mean I'm aligned with anyone else. There was a time when many of us disagreed with RMEF's stance on wolves, yet we all worked through it. I stand by my previous statement. Preservation isn't necessarily conservation and constructive disagreement can lead to good things. Not once did I say don't support BHA. I just said I question what they do and I personally didn't agree with their stance on the monuments. How is disagreement slander? In my position, I see requests from many conservation organizations for support of their latest causes. Many of our AWCP partners are so concerned about preservation, I personally think they lose sight of our interests as hunters. Even though that is my concern, we almost always support the stances of our partners. Unless the cause is harmful to bowhunting, we support it. You admit to controversy with the origins of BHA's funding and you say it's not true. How are we supposed to know the truth? Like I said, prove my suspicions wrong.

From: Dotman
10-Feb-18
Interesting that the president of P&Y will state so much about BHA yet openly state he really hasn’t verified or looked into anything, made me chuckle as he has the same problem with getting new members to really research more into his org.

BHA is a great org, I’m a life member.

No org will align 100% with our views but BHA has the larger picture of hunter interests in mind. Where will all the P&Y members hunt without public land? How will P&Y grow without public land? Not everyone that is concerned with preserving public land hunts but hunters always lead the charge in conservation and public land retention.

From: MuleyBum
11-Feb-18
JSW, Instead of spreading false narratives about the organization I would suggest that you might first get on the phone and talk to the folks at BHA. I'm certain your position as president of the P&Y Club would gain you easy access to the leadership of BHA.

You made it clear you disagree with BHA on the monuments issue and side with those in Utah who supported rescinding monument status for public lands in that state. I'm sorry, but your stance it shortsighted and posses a threat to our public lands. If this is allowed to stand what's to stop this president or any future president from rescinding the status of monuments going all the way back to Theodore Roosevelt? This sets a dangerous precedent which you seem to favor. Moreover, the politicians in Utah are the leading actors in scheme to privatize our public lands and are aligned with the anti-public lands organization, the American Lands Council. Recently the president of the ALC, Montana State Senator Jennifer Fielder, appeared at an anti-public lands rally here in Montana with Cliven and Ryan Bundy. She treated the Bundy's as heroes, stating that they should be pardoned. (BTW, instead of sitting on their hands and doing nothing, BHA members attended that rally to peacefully confront the Bundy's and call them on their b.s.) So you can make all the denials you want but you are in fact siding with those very politicians in Utah who back the American Lands Council's stance on Monuments and are sympathetic to the Bundy's. So, no, I will not take a chill pill while you spread false narratives about BHA and slander them. In my book to make the claim, without providing a shred of evidence, that some members of BHA are "closet anti-hunters" does indeed fit under my definition of slander.

Finally, last week I drove 125 miles to buy a ticket to a bowhunters banquet where you are scheduled to speak. Now, reading what you have written in this thread, I wouldn't think of attending that event. Moreover, I have cancelled my plans to attend the June P&Y rendezvous in Wisconsin which was also to include a visit to the P&Y museum in Chatfield, Minnesota. As I stated in my previous post, given your stance I no longer wish to be in any manner associated with the P&Y Club.

From: moon
11-Feb-18
Jaqumo's if you think only the hunters will be banned from the public lands read up on The WildLands Project. You can find it on google.

From: Treeline
11-Feb-18
Wow, Rich, you really are wound up tight.

I am a life member of Pope and Young and a regular member of BHA.

I am sorry to hear your comments toward an organization and a person that I hold in the highest of regard.

Many Pope and Young members (including Jim) hunt public lands primarily/regularly and absolutely do not agree with loss of those public lands to private or State control. Pope and Young is an organization focused on preserving bow hunting and not public lands. Two very different concepts.

We also do not agree with unnecessary designation of already public lands (BLM, USFS, etc.) as National Monuments where hunting and access can be revoked very easily. Designation of areas as National Monuments closes down historical access and does not allow for any activities that were formerly revenue generating mechanisms (grazing, logging, mining, petroleum production, etc). There is no state or federal tax base for those activities for those lands after designation.

State and Federal taxpayers have to foot the bills for holding these lands designated as National Monuments.

Not a good deal in the long run and, with less potential for revenue generation over time to the DOI and USFS, it will drive decisions in the future to sell or turn over public lands to private or state entities.

I was unaware until recently that National Monument designation did not automatically preclude hunting as all of the National Monuments that I am familiar with in Colorado don't allow it. Interestingly, there are private inholdings in several that I know of that continue to allow hunting and it is very good, but you will pay for it!

There were a number of National Monument designations that were made by the previous administration that definitely were over the top with the amount of land that they included.

I applaud Mr. Zinke's decision to reduce and remove National Monument designation and return those lands to multi-use BLM and USFS activities. Doing this will make it more difficult to sell off or transfer these public lands in the future so that we and future generations will be allowed to hunt and fish there as we have in the past.

BHA's stance on the National Monument issue was very irrational and did not look at the big picture. It also seemed to assume that hunting, fishing, and public access was enhanced in some way by the designation of lands as National Monuments. I actually questioned a number of people in upper levels of the organization about their stance and did not get a good answer as to why they were taking this position when it had the potential to reduce public lands for hunting and angling.

I had been considering a life membership to BHA and had been fairly active in the organization but will need to reconsider after this.

I will say that you are missing a golden opportunity to speak with Jim about the issues that trouble you about Pope and Young by not meeting with him face to face at that banquet.

From: Kurt
11-Feb-18
Treeline x 2.

I look at National Monuments about like National Parks from a hunter’s perspective...based on my years in Colorado.

From: Jaquomo
11-Feb-18
Some alarmist organizations and individuals seem to think that removing Monument status is essentially the same as privatization. On the contrary, in many cases it OPENS THEM UP to hunting and public use. There are huge areas in CO closed to hunting for no reason other than "the other side of the fence" has the designation.

.I get the sense that groups like Sierra Club would just as soon see all federal public land placed under Monument-like status where they are protected from all uses except theirs - backpacking - of course.

Muleybum, just as you can disagree with the private opinion of Jim, at least he has the nuts to express it. I'll guarantee you'll find some in leadership roles in BHA who are against hunting. They co-opt hunters into the cause, just as Sierra Club tried to do some years ago by adopting a softer stance toward hunting. They don't openly admit it of course, but I know hard core fishermen (all catch-release) who are anti-hunting and are pissed that they have to share "their" backcountry with hunters in the fall.

From: Trial153
11-Feb-18

Trial153's Link
Show me the leadership in BHA that are antihunting...

From: Trial153
11-Feb-18

Trial153's Link
Again... show me....

From: Trial153
11-Feb-18
One thing is abundantly clear with some of the so called “ friends” have we sure don’t need enemies.

From: Boreal
11-Feb-18
That's great! If you don't agree with me 100 % on every issue, not only will I quit your organization BUT I also won't attend a function that would put me in the same room as you even though I've already paid good money to attend!

Logical thought process....

From: Jaquomo
11-Feb-18
Trial, I'm not going to dissect everyone on the Board and I'm sure they are all good people, just as the P&Y leadership is comprised of good people with whom we may have some policy disagreements. But Bulis, Hutchinson, (Edit - Kelly does mention hunting) and McGraw mention nothing about hunting in their profiles. Can you confirm that they are all strong hunting advocates? Like I said, I know hard core fly fishermen who are quietly against hunting and if push came to shove would side against it.

One thing I do believe is that advocating closing off public lands to hunting is not "pro-hunting"...

From: MuleyBum
11-Feb-18
Treeline, One of my favorite hunting places here in Montana happens to be a designated National Monument. But I stand by every word I've written in the above posts - which is more than I can say about JSW who has since edited his posts to remove some of the more outrageous and slanderous statements he made about BHA.

From: JSW
11-Feb-18
All right guys this is getting out of hand and too personal. We all have our sacred cows and I apologize if I peed on one. Let me try to better explain my position. P&Y is a member of the American Wildlife Conservation Partners. There are 46 members and the organization brings all of us together to support or oppose issues that affect wildlife, hunting and conservation. It's a powerful and important partnership. Seeing what the various partners promote and oppose can be eye opening to say the least. I've become concerned that some of our partners have become way more "green" than I'm comfortable with. Even so, we almost always support our partners. What I mean by "green" is anti business, anti human and yes sometimes anti hunting. Before you get all upset about that, there are plenty of hunters who are anti hunting to some extent. If you oppose lion, bear and other predator hunting, you are anti hunting in my opinion. Considering one cougar can kill 10,300 pounds of biomass in one year, not controlling them is extremely detrimental to our cause. If a so called hunting organization is getting too green I'm going to question their motives. Sometimes their stance is warranted but sometimes it's harmful to us as a whole.

The reason I weighed in to begin with is I don't think organizations like RMEF, Wild Sheep and BHA are all that concerned with ensuring the future of bowhunting. Hunting, sure but specifically bowhunting, no. They all do good things but bowhunters need to unite. We've lost our way and we've given up our power. It's time to take that back.

From: Jaquomo
11-Feb-18
Trial, you know what I'm about. Calm your emotions down and let your blood pressure return to normal. You don't need to personally attack me.

Here's what I believe: BHA leadership tends to be left-leaning, politically, as evidenced by some individual leaders' political efforts. That, in itself is not necessarily a bad thing for public lands considering where some right-leaning politicians are with respect to public land transfers. But public lands are not the only issues facing our country. On important issues like immigration, taxes, energy self-reliance, Second Amendment, growth of government control over our daily lives, left-leaning beliefs deeply conflict with my own. I'm not a "single issue" guy.

BHA has accepted large amounts of funding from organizations that are inherently anti-hunting, which does raise some red flags. BHA tries to spin it but it's on the tax returns.

I agree with their position on keeping public lands public. I also agree that not all public land is suitable for timber harvest and energy development, but at the same time we don't need to close off EVERYTHING to those uses if they are appropriate and managed carefully. Same goes for roadless areas. They are critical for many obvious reasons. But with the average age of hunters now over 50 and growing older by about one year every two years, many hunters are dropping out of big game hunting because access to their hunting areas is now behind locked gates. In my NF they are closing off access roads left and right. Great for those still able to access them on foot or however, not so much for the old guys who've had hunting camps back in there all their lives. Is this a bad thing? Depends on who you talk to. Some closure advocates come off with a "Let them eat cake" attitude.

I also believe that the idea that BHA and P&Y are an either-or proposition is asinine. One promotes bowhunting and preserving the heritage, while the other is all about public lands. Bowhunters are all about public land conservation, but not all "preservationists" are in favor of bowhunting. But we can belong to both organizations at the same time without agreeing with each and every position of each and every leader. These are not religious issues (though some bowhunters and backcountry advocates try to make it seem so).

From: MuleyBum
11-Feb-18
"...I don't think organizations like RMEF, Wild Sheep and BHA are all that concerned with ensuring the future of bowhunting."

On this I am in full agreement with JSW. But preserving the future of bowhunting is not the mission of RMEF, BHA, WSF, BCC, or any number of hunting and conservation organizations. This should be the mission of P&Y. That's the sole reason why I had been a member these past dozen years. We need a NATIONAL organization that stands for bowhunting and bowhunters. But what we do not need is the president of a national organization that intends to speak for bowhunters to publicly bash a pro-hunting and pro-conservation group like BHA. We are all entitled to our personal views, including JSW. But it also must be remembered that when the president of an organization speaks it is a reflection on the organization which he/she represents.

From: Bill Obeid
11-Feb-18
Muleybum,

Really? JSW has every right to express his opinions separately from his position with P&Y. Unless he states it’s “ P&Y ‘s position “ ..... I cant see why he shouldn’t be allowed to express his personal views and be able to separate himself from the organization he represents.

You’re right ... he is entitled to his personal view... but he should also be entitled to his personal views without being handcuffed to the presidency of P&Y.

It’s not fun being a president, it’s a lot of hard work and sacrifice. What I like about our P&Y president is that when others disagree with him , he doesn’t resort to personal attack . Sometimes..... when a president of an organization DOESNT speak it is a reflection of the organization which he/ she represents.

Finally a healthy discussion that can benefit everyone here on Bowsite. There’s a reason this thread will approach 300 posts..... because it’s an important discussion

If you are out there reading this post and you care about the future of the sport you love...... you have the opportunity to have your voice heard by the president of P&Y. Speak up ...... Bowsite , once again , has given us a unique opportunity.

From: Jaquomo
11-Feb-18
Back to P&Y and candidates, which is where this thread began... My biggest concern is that all members of P&Y (not just voting members) should be able to read the resumes and position statements of the candidates for office. This, alone might spur more general members to apply for regular membership, for voting privileges if nothing else.

I understand why "general" members feel left out in the cold. I felt that way too, which is why I applied for regular membership. I wanted to at least have a small voice. Anyone who read Jim Willems' letter to voting members and his position paper would understand where his intentions lie. And I believe they are pointed in the right direction. So if any changes can be considered in the future without changing the basic membership/voting structure, that's one place where I believe it would help very much. Transparency is key in any organization.

From: MuleyBum
11-Feb-18
Bill, Perhaps so. But, like it or not, as president his views ARE a reflection of the organization he heads. How would he have been elected to lead the organization if his views did not reflect the views of it's membership? And so long as he feels comfortable pissing on other conservation organizations, spreading misinformation, I want no part of the Pope and Young Club. He made the unfounded claim, since edited, that BHA had members who are "closet anti-hunters". Sorry, but as president of P&Y that is a reflection on the organization he heads. Now he doesn't even have the decency to apologize for that slanderous remark. And that's the rub: either back that claim with evidence or apologize. He has done neither. I will continue to support my state bowhunter organization but I want nothing more to do with the P&Y Club with JSM at it's helm.

From: Buffalo1
11-Feb-18
Lou,

I am 100% in agreement with you. I have no idea who is running other offices other than 2nd Vice President which is the only position I can vote for as a Life General/General member.

From: Ambush
11-Feb-18
There are no winners when the discussion spirals down like this.

Well, not quite true. The real anti’s get good return on no effort.

From: JSW
11-Feb-18
Rich, I think everyone else who has read my posts understands that I didn't bash anyone. I gave an honest opinion and plenty of people agree with me. We are concerned with the politics of the organization. It's that simple.

Like I said, there have been discussions about P&Y and BHA doing some sort of joint event. We do have common goals and we will likely work together in the future. I think your outrage is out of place.

P&Y just did a joint event with SCI. I think SCI's stance on so called "estate hunting" is a disgrace and needs to stop. I'm very vocal about that and I bring it up every time I talk to them. SCI still does a lot of good and I'm not going to quit them because I disagree with one issue even one as big as that.

We're not getting anywhere with this so feel free to have the final word. I'm tired of wrestling in the mud.

From: JSW
11-Feb-18
Lou and Greg, Good idea about getting more information to the general members. I'll bring it up and see what we can do about it.

From: Treeline
11-Feb-18
Rich,

Based on information from several sources regarding funding sources of BHA, ties of BHA leadership to organizations that are anti-hunting, as well as the recent stance by BHA on National Monuments that does not enhance access for hunting and fishing perhaps there is something to Jim's remarks. It is not slander. Jim was simply pointing out claims that have been made by others questioning the funding and leadership of BHA.

Is there a rebuttal to those claims or any clarification by BHA?

Those issues have certainly caused me to pause and reflect on what BHA's real goals are, what direction they are going, and whether I want to continue to support them.

Unfortunately, you have stated that you will not speak with Jim face to face and that you are cancelling your membership in the Pope and Young Club over his one remark based on claims that appear very truthful about BHA. Honestly, that is very rash behavior.

I am certain that Jim would be very attentive to your concerns and would address them in a positive way.

Would it not be preferable to sit down and rationally discuss your issues with Jim and the Club?

11-Feb-18
Hence my complaint about membership structure. It’s total crap. It should be revamped. To say I just need to be more involved to be heard is a bunch of crap also. I have voiced my opinion to Second Vice Presidents and to positions on the membership committee. Although my thoughts have been heard, it most likely seems it’s been shrugged off. There are problems with it. It is blatantly obvious and has been shared by others posting here. Offering a lifetime associate membership or whatever It’s called and then asking to pay more for an advancement in membership is questionable. Personably, I am at peace with it and don’t want to try to advance because of its absurdity. Most of the membership has no clue what is goin on with the club. most have no idea whom is even running for positions or anything about those said individuals. It’s laughable. It can be improved. The membership structure should be in the recently discredited NFL’s bit of “Come on man?!”

From: Bigdan
11-Feb-18
BHA goal is to take away access for older hunters we have to much wilderness now taking away Wilderness study areas or Monuments is not taking away public lands there still public it just makes it so more people can use it. I don't know why this has got into a P&Y thread As far as the membership it has changed it unlimited if you meet the requirements. Its not an everyone gets a trophy club.

11-Feb-18
Us insignificants may not want a trophy but would like to know info about possible leaders of the club? Lol.

From: MuleyBum
11-Feb-18
* Post deleted by MuleyBum *

From: Jaquomo
11-Feb-18
So that must mean that Land Tawney's left-leaning views are a reflection of the organization he heads? No wonder big lefty donors like WCF and Wilburforce are so anxious to write big checks to them...

From: TD
11-Feb-18
" But preserving the future of bowhunting is not the mission of RMEF, BHA, WSF, BCC, or any number of hunting and conservation organizations." Huh..... who'da thunk..... P&Y is a BOWHUNTING CLUB. A group of and for BOWHUNTERS.

It's the right of anyone who is even CONSIDERING joining an org to research and determine who and what that org really is. OR has become.

Have to say personally..... if anyone in the higher ups (including financial support) have any connections with anti-hunting..... I'm not only not joining.... I will actively oppose them. I don't support wolves in sheeps clothing.... so to speak.....

Mr Smith has stated several times he is "leaving P&Y"...... well, sorry to hear that. But not once have you addressed the concerns here about the org you are leaving them over. You seem comfortable with some "diversity" in the org you are so passionate about. Yet inflexible toward anyone who would question you or the org you seem so passionate about. Have to say to me that raises more questions as to why than it lays to rest. Not helping your cause much at all if this is the attitude of the membership.

From: MuleyBum
12-Feb-18
It was brought to my attention that it was another poster, not JSW, who said that BHA "closet anti-hunters". I checked and the person who brought this to my attention is correct. The error was entirely mine and I take full responsibility my mistake. I also offer JSM my sincere apology without reservation or qualification. I will also make a public apology on Twitter and remove the tweet.

That said, there were other things that were said that I find objectionable, including the remark that BHA is "obviously more preservationist than conservationist." I take strong exception to JSW's views on this and other issues. Since as a general member I am not permitted to vote for the position of president, I have no other avenue open to me to raise my strong objections to JSM's views but to resign my membership. I therefore stand by my position that I do not want to be in any manner associated with the Pope and Young Club.

From: pav
12-Feb-18
" I therefore stand by my position that I do not want to be in any manner associated with the Pope and Young Club."

Entirely your call, but heard you the FIRST time...and the SECOND....now a THIRD. Get a grip man. You put yourself in quicksand here. JSW extended the olive branch more than once , but you just keeping flailing about while sinking deeper and deeper.

From: jstephens61
12-Feb-18
Dang, anyone want to talk about Rage broadheads? This has turned out to be the ugliest thread I’ve ever seen. It’s your money, spend it where and how you want and don’t bitch about how I spend mine.

From: deerhaven
12-Feb-18
Perhaps this thread shows more clearly than other threads, why P&Y should continue to insist that their members put in sufficient time to be fully vetted before we allow them voting privileges and the ability to hold leadership positions. Something to think about.

Deerhaven

From: No Mercy
12-Feb-18
Wow. Incredible butt hurt here. Opinions are objectionable. Pope and young does more for bow hunting than any other organization and if you can’t support that, then that’s your prerogative. It’s time for all of us to move on and get back to suggestions on different ways the club can improve

12-Feb-18
JSM = JSW

Personally... I just want to be around like minded individuals/bowhunters. That, in a nutshell, is why I'm a member of the P&Y club. Is that the simpleton reasoning? Oh well. The P&Y club is not perfect and never will be. Unless this club just goes left of center and does things that are totally against some of my personal beliefs/ethics, I'll always be a member and support as much as I can. To me, thats supporting my brothers and sisters that have that same passion. Have a great week everyone!

From: MuleyBum
12-Feb-18
Jaquomo, it may come as a surprise to you but not all hunters and passionate outdoors men and women are right wing Republicans. I spent my entire working career as a union member actively involved in the labor movement. I can tell you with certainty that over the decades I've met a very large number of union members who were dedicated hunters and/or fishers but not political conservatives. And given my background, perhaps that's all the more reason for me not to be a member of an organization that acts as a bowhunting auxiliary of the Republican party.

From: Brotsky
12-Feb-18
It's amazing how far down the rabbit hole you can go when you reason with emotion instead of facts and evidence.

From: MuleyBum
12-Feb-18
Brotsky, What I was specifically referring to was the National Monument issue which has been mentioned several times in this thread. Sorry, I should have made myself clearer than I did.

From: Bill Obeid
12-Feb-18
If you want to leave the world a better place than you found it..... you have to give back a little more than you take.

Since I was a little boy I’ve enjoyed shooting my bows and latter bow hunting. The bow and arrow has given me infinite enjoyment. I’d like to pass that opportunity on to the next wave of youngsters in coming generations!

Best way I know how to preserve that opportunity for those behind me is to invest in and support Pope & Young. I see P&Y shortcomings..... but show me a better alternative !

From: Jaquomo
12-Feb-18
MuleyBum, just as every hunter is not a Republican or conservative, not every P&Y member agrees with every personal position of it's officers. I disagree with positions of some officers of RMEF, NRA, CBA, TU (another liberal advocacy org) but support them for the greater good they do. You implied that Jim's personal beliefs are a reflection of the club, then decided to go public with a character attack. Bad form. So I turned it around to BHA leadership. Evidently your emotions were so inflamed that you missed that.

I was considering joining BHA until this thread. Now I have little interested in joining an organization that acts as the conservation auxiliary of the Socialist Workers Party. (There, I did it again. Let's see if you pick up on it..)

From: Jaquomo
12-Feb-18
I probably should have instead suggested BHA is the "hunting and fishing auxiliary of the Sierra Club" which would be more accurate.

From: buzz mc
12-Feb-18
Pat,

Something must be wrong with the forum. I opened the P&Y Members thread and think I was just directed to the Community Forum.

Good grief. It's going to be a long time until September.

Carry on gentlemen.

From: jdee
12-Feb-18
Sounds like an Obama liberal now......in one ear and out the other !! What’s next, Nancy Palosi for P&Y president ?

From: bigeasygator
12-Feb-18
BHA's alignment with the left is simple. They are the political party that is supporting mission of ensuring "North America's outdoor heritage of hunting and fishing in a natural setting, through education and work on behalf of wild public lands and waters" particularly the public lands and waters piece, which is, in many ways, the most core to BHA's mission and purpose.

Fine if you want to not like them cause they align with the left on public lands. Fine if you don't like them because you believe we should be opening up access to motorized vehicles and development on our public lands. But anyone harboring the notion that the BHA leadership is anti-hunting clearly hasn't met folks like Land Tawney, Ty Stubblefield, Ryan Callaghan, or Ryan Busse and I'm guessing they haven't spent any time with any of the staff or board members. These guys are as passionate an outdoors-people as they come, and the thought that they are somehow secretly pursuing an anti-hunting agenda is laughable.

12-Feb-18
BEG is right. Not wanting America's natural lands to have unlimited ATV access and limit oil/gas exploration naturally makes them more left leaning, than say, SCI, etc, but they are not anti-hunting. The piece sited above was nothing more than an extraction industry hit piece payed for by people with a financial stake, formed in much the same way that the Trump Dossier was. It's fake news. BHA is a group of sportsman.

From: TD
13-Feb-18
Probably should start another thread critiquing the BHA as this is a P&Y thread and dealing with improvements to that club. But hard to leave misleading statements go unchallenged.

The left is "ensuring" North America's hunting heritage? Guess "ensuring" is different than "supporting". But words mean things. If you look at all the dozens and dozens of orgs that are anti-hunting, anti-2nd amendment, etc. they are ALL leftist oriented. A good deal of the left are actively ANTI-HUNTING. Offhand I see NO anti-hunting conservative orgs. None. If there were such orgs they would certainly be an anomaly. But yeah..... the left as a rule is a stanch ally of hunters and hunting rights.... good grief....

You'd have to have had a gallon of koolaid not to be at least suspicious of a liberal/leftist claims of supporting hunting in and of itself. They may have the same short term goals and align themselves towards that. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Changing the management of an area to restrict it can also be the camel's nose under the tent. Hunters will get tossed under the bus and not even know it has happened until it has.

And I don't believe folks are supporting opening up roads as was stated and improve access where there is none now. I believe there are those who support KEEPING the access they CURRENTLY have. Opening access is very different than blocking current access. There is some word play going on as well as some misleading of how Obama put the "monument status" on vast swaths of land locking out access as well as any local non-bureaucratic control over use as required prior. They can and have eliminated hunting on monument land with the wave of a hand. It's the first step to creating national park land. How many national parks can you hunt in?

A good many folks involved would give up hunting access in favor of expanding national parks. That is a far cry from supporting hunting. P&Y supports hunting. Period.

WRT the support and funding..... well I guess politics make strange bedfellows.... the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing...... but leftist orgs created to support hunting???? Sure... maybe lobby for some unicorn tags too.....

I'm old enough to remember similar words coming from the beginnings of the Sierra Club. Many clubs start out as one thing and morph into something else. Everything changes, inevitable..... but to what aim.... and what direction. Thus back in a round about way to what changes should and shouldn't take place withing P&Y?

From: bigeasygator
13-Feb-18
BHA is not a “leftist” org, TD. There is nothing in the BHA mission that relates to being leftist or aligning with any political party and the causes they support aren’t an effort to deliver a plank on a political platform.

They are a conservation group made up of hunters and anglers whose primary mission is to advocate for public lands and waters. If the Republican Party didn’t have a platform plank explicitly speaking to transferring of federal lands and they weren’t actively trying to do so, I’m sure you’d see BHA align with them on more occasions. It just so happens that the Dems are the party of most ardently advocating for retaining federal lands. When it comes to other aspects of our hunting heritage, they obviously are not. As sportsmen, we are often put in a difficult spot - support one party and we won’t have guns to hunt with, support the other side we won’t have lands to hunt on.

Every monument decision needs to be looked at on its own. Yes, there are monuments that restrict hunting. That was not the case in the GS-E. The move was one entirely made with the aim of opening up access and removing protections against development.

13-Feb-18
You have to be careful. The APR, (American Prairie Reserve) learned how to play the game. When the APR entices landowners to sell land tracts to them, they generally allow hunting for a period, usually 20 years, and grazing to the previous landowner too. This makes the deal palatable.... What do you think is going to happen when the 20 years is up? Hard to believe how many hunters fall for this and support the APR, and do not read the fine print. The ranchers do it because it takes care of them for their lifetime, they do not care beyond if they have no interested heirs.

I do wonder how many active hunters also utilize National Parks for their families other recreation such as camping, sight seeing, fishing, hiking, skiing etc. I do not think most hunters are necessarily against National Parks, or their expansion. They just do not want them in their area.

As far as the P&Y Club, they have work to do.

From: SBH
22-Feb-18
Just wanted to Publicly say Thank you to Eric V for paying for my Pope and Young club membership. He offered to pay for up to 10 new guys to join and I took him up on it. I'm excited to be part of it and looking forward to being a supporter of our sport in the future. Thanks Eric.

22-Feb-18
Congrats, Matt. Welcome aboard. Great gesture, Eric!

From: Trial153
22-Feb-18
Nice work Eric.

From: otcWill
22-Feb-18
Good deal! You'll be glad you joined

22-Feb-18
Nice work Eric and welcome to P&Y Matt! When people are passionate about something drama can follow, but overall PY is a great organization full of great people. Hope to meet you at a convention somewhere down the line!!

Matt

From: Mark Watkins
22-Feb-18
Congrats Eric and Matt!

Welcome to the P&Y!

We all play for the same team!

Mark

From: Jim D
23-Feb-18
Thank you Eric. He also paid for my membership.

From: StickFlicker
02-Mar-18

StickFlicker's embedded Photo
StickFlicker's embedded Photo
Here are the election results, which I believe were the topic when this discussion began!

02-Mar-18
I hope the elected officials will review this thread. I personally we need to do everything possible to expand our membership. It starts with leadership and unity. A board divided doesn’t serve anyone well.

Thanks to all the that voted, volunteer, and serve.

02-Mar-18
I met BHA type individuals, that are anti trapping,,, hard to believe,,,not saying it is in their mission statement, but you can get that "air" about them, when you meet them,,,,

we all want and need wild country, trouble is we have those, who want the inclusion on who can use it, to be selective,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think the BHA has a sound concern, they have to be careful how they deliver their message.....

Pope and Young Club, good conservation organization,,,,,,,

From: MuleyBum
05-Mar-18
Having let emotion get the best of me, and having placed my foot firmly in my mouth earlier in this thread, I want to add a positive about P&Y that hasn't yet been mentioned: the magazine. If you haven't seen P&Y Ethic it's worth the read. What I particularly like is that each issue has a focus on a different big game animal. For instance, the current issue has articles about Canadian Moose. Some membership magazines are hardly worth reading. But that's not the case with P&Y Ethic. I put P&Y's magazine right behind the RMEF's Bugle as one of the better membership publications.

Finally, I hope P&Y will give serious consideration to an earlier suggestion to develop a podcast.

From: Kurt
05-Mar-18
Congratulations to Jim Willems and Jack Frost plus the rest of the board. Happy to see they are leading the club.

From: Jaquomo
05-Mar-18
^^^^^^^ Yep!

Another vote for the Ethic as among the very best of organizational publications. No politics, no incessant global warming alarmism, just great stuff about bowhunting and the animals we hunt.

From: Boreal
05-Mar-18
The Ethic is a great read and I look forward to every issue. Unfortunately, I fear that eventually it will only be offered in the digital version.

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