Moultrie Products
Dropping out of the WY moose race
Moose
Contributors to this thread:
IdyllwildArcher 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
Wishedhead 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
Glunt@work 29-Jan-18
newfi1946moose 29-Jan-18
BOWUNTR 29-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 29-Jan-18
Genesis 29-Jan-18
cnelk 29-Jan-18
Steve H. 29-Jan-18
sticksender 29-Jan-18
Charlie Rehor 29-Jan-18
standswittaknife 29-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 29-Jan-18
kota-man 29-Jan-18
Southern draw 29-Jan-18
Buskill 29-Jan-18
Franzen 29-Jan-18
HULLHEAVER 29-Jan-18
Bake 29-Jan-18
Nick Muche 29-Jan-18
kentuckbowhnter 29-Jan-18
TreeWalker 29-Jan-18
mathewshooter 29-Jan-18
Nesser 29-Jan-18
BOWUNTR 29-Jan-18
Treeline 29-Jan-18
Trial153 29-Jan-18
nvgoat 29-Jan-18
Shrewski 29-Jan-18
midwest 29-Jan-18
Yellowjacket 29-Jan-18
Stekewood 29-Jan-18
jstephens61 29-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 29-Jan-18
MichaelArnette 29-Jan-18
SBH 29-Jan-18
wyliecoyote 29-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 29-Jan-18
antlerless 29-Jan-18
Tjw 29-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 29-Jan-18
walking buffalo 29-Jan-18
Stekewood 29-Jan-18
Medicinemann 30-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 30-Jan-18
Huntcell 30-Jan-18
marktm250 30-Jan-18
Deertick 30-Jan-18
cnelk 30-Jan-18
gobbler 30-Jan-18
cnelk 30-Jan-18
cnelk 30-Jan-18
South Farm 30-Jan-18
Mint 30-Jan-18
duvall 30-Jan-18
gobbler 30-Jan-18
Kurt 30-Jan-18
pav 30-Jan-18
Mad Trapper 30-Jan-18
DEMO-Bowhunter 30-Jan-18
walking buffalo 30-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 30-Jan-18
TreeWalker 30-Jan-18
'Ike' (Phone) 30-Jan-18
Mike-TN 30-Jan-18
Willieboat 30-Jan-18
TXHunter 30-Jan-18
Quinn @work 31-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 31-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 31-Jan-18
Stekewood 31-Jan-18
TXHunter 31-Jan-18
Franzen 31-Jan-18
Trial153 31-Jan-18
Trial153 31-Jan-18
Michael 31-Jan-18
Lost Arra 31-Jan-18
IdyllwildArcher 31-Jan-18
Irishman 01-Feb-18
BULELK1 01-Feb-18
sticksender 01-Feb-18
TreeWalker 01-Feb-18
MathewsMan 01-Feb-18
WapitiBob 01-Feb-18
wildwilderness 01-Feb-18
BULELK1 20-Feb-18
29-Jan-18
I really wanted to hunt moose in Wyoming. I've hunted elk there 5 times and love the state.

But I'm dropping out of the WY moose race. Not out of necessity, but rather in protest. I could have stomached the tag price increase from around $1400 to around $2000 as I apply for moose tags in other states with similar tag prices. It's the preference point system and preference point cost that gets me.

A NR WY moose PP now costs $150 and you have to buy it to enter the race. And that's besides the application fee, just to play the game.

Here's the kicker: Most moose units in WY take 15-20 points to draw, with most of them being in the 17-19 range. I'm a younger guy. I wasn't around for the introduction of the system - I have 4 points. There are 5000 NRs with between 5 and 14 points, nearly 7000 people have 5 or more points, and WY currently gives out 57 NR moose tags per year and that number continues to drop as moose numbers drop.

At the current rate of tag allocation, that's an 87-122 year back log. If you're just getting into the game now, the picture is even worse as there's nearly 12,000 people with more points than you - so you're looking at close to a 200 year wait. Now of course, people drop out and no one lives to 200, so that number is ridiculous, but it goes to show that my only chance of drawing comes when I'm very old, if ever. And probably never.

I could hang on till I'm very old, but at $150/yr for "maybe," I'm insulted enough to vote with my wallet. Even if they didn't raise PP fees ever again in my lifetime, I'm still looking at paying 5 grand over my lifetime in just PP fees and I'm not guaranteed a tag so I'm gambling that 5 grand.

There are the 5 units with 6 random tags between them and that's where I and most everyone else with lower points puts in: Units 5, 24, 25, 26, and 38. But the odds in these units is dropping and tag numbers have been dropping in 5, 24, 25, and 26 due to wolves and I only see that continuing till the number of tags in these units drops below the needed amount to have a tag in the random pool and 24 will most likely lose one of its two soon. IMO, the random tag numbers will go from 6 to 2 in the next several years with overall WY 57 NR tags dropping along with moose numbers as they have, which only makes the preference point problem worse and diminishes the attractiveness of applying with a lower amount of points. Moose quality and numbers are going down in WY, but the costs to apply are going up.

Even if you have 10 points right now, there's still over 4000 people with more points than you.

In all honesty, if I didn't have to pay the PP cost, I'd keep applying, hoping to get a random tag even though the odds are ridiculous (one in 600 in 38, 1 in 100 in the other units), but I refuse to continue to pay for the turd that is the WY moose PP. When it was $75 or $100 or whatever it was, I looked at it as the cost of playing the game. But raising the price for something that has no value is just insulting.

I feel like if more people saw these numbers, that more people would drop out. Part of it is that you send in the tag cost + PP fee + application fee and just get less back when you don't draw, so it softens the blow.

But I don't think I'm the only one. I don't think it'll be enough people for WY to not see a net increase in revenue from the increase in cost, but I hope more people will see the reality of this ridiculous system and drop out.

And I won't be back till the fee is decreased or the asinine preference point system is either scrapped or changed to a bonus point system, which is the only solution to a system that creates an eventuality where only 80 year olds are the ones that draw a tag.

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
I agree, dropping out of wy moose and sheep as well. At this point I throwing good money after bad.

From: Wishedhead
29-Jan-18
I have figured out these numbers as well and you are spot on. I am sitting at 9 points and have not made a decision as to what i am going to do. Very frustrating to see them gash the nr even more. Well have to see what the result of this is. My personal feeling is that thier will be a couple thosand less pp purchased this year. People are not dumb. You can by alot of state lottery tickets for $150

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
Even it the rate of point purchases drops by 50% your pretty much still doomed if your under 10-12 points. At 150 a point plus fees is beyond silly. And there is no one even addressing the issues of unsustainable system. Their answer is to take more money.

From: Glunt@work
29-Jan-18
I have basically dropped out of all NR points races and most of my home state. Finding a lot of fun and satisfaction focusing on Otc and guaranteed draw hunts. I have a bunch of deer points to burn and I'm looking forward to being done banking those as well.

29-Jan-18
Friends of mine applied for Maine for over 20 years...I never did. Retired and for 7 of the last 8 years have hunted moose in NL and have taken a moose each year. Nothing to brag about except the mince and steaks!

From: BOWUNTR
29-Jan-18
I quit a while ago for those reasons. Tag and application costs will never go down. Save your money, shoot a Canadian and call it a Shiras... Ed F

29-Jan-18
I think you're right Wishedhead, but the problem is, I bet there won't be a lot of people with 10+ points drop out.

For WY to see a net loss of money from this, more than 1/2 of people would have to drop out. I think the old PP cost was $75 and now it's $150. It's crazy. They made almost a million bucks just last year from NR moose PPs. Many states don't even get a million bucks in NR license fees.

Again, the cost is one thing. The bigger problem is that it has no value. Even at $75, it's still a $75 turd.

From: Genesis
29-Jan-18
My odds were better than yours and dropped out 5 years ago....glad I did.As Ed said.....go to Canada

From: cnelk
29-Jan-18
Idyl

I’m not familiar w Wyoming moose draw, but can you put in for cow moose w the PPs you have?

That way you not out everything

From: Steve H.
29-Jan-18
"...but can you put in for cow moose w the PPs" Yes, but as f this year there were almost no NR cow tags.

I wouldn't be surprised if WY scraps the current system so someone that "thinks" they may be on a collision course with a tag in 15 years, might not be.

From: sticksender
29-Jan-18
I'm in the Moose point Dead Zone with 12 points. Most guys in that point range, plus or minus, will probably stay in the game because we've been in it so long and hate to admit defeat. And some will stay in, believing their odds are bound to increase because of the NR fee hike. For that reason, the draw odds probably won't improve in any meaningful way. History has already proven this to be the case in Wyoming in the aftermath of huge fee hikes. As when a decade ago the NR sheep points were increased from 7.00 to 100.00. The bulk of NR's held off dropping out at that time, thinking their odds would get a boost. But it never happened. Making it worse, the for-pay app services have continued shouting "apply, apply, apply" and people do follow. And thus the point pools skyrocket in size. Someday, someway, the whole thing is bound to implode!

29-Jan-18
Yep, it’s all becoming a mirage. I think we need to evaluate these decisions in each state and do what’s smart based on our age, goals and budget. I hit a similar conclusion with Utah where the number of Non-Residents with 10 elk points went from 749 in 2010 to 1358 in 2017. In those 7 years the available number of tags declined and basically the only way to draw is by luck of the random draw.

29-Jan-18
I had 17 points and bailed on a lesser unit than I had hoped, but had a blast. Glad I'm out of the game. I consider myself very lucky.

29-Jan-18
Brad, last year there were 6 NR cow moose tags in WY. 5 went in the PP draw and were drawn by people with 13, 9, 8, 7, and 5 points. One tag went in the random pool.

From: kota-man
29-Jan-18
About 5 years ago, I bailed on just about every State (I had quite a few points in all of them) and decided to go hunting. I was easily spending $2500 a year in draws. That's a dall sheep hunt every 10 years! Or a lesser species hunt like deer every year! I still take the long shot on Montana Bighorns, I didn't give up my Az. elk points and I have about 10 points for all species in Utah. I let everything else go. True...someone has to draw, but at some point the risk is not worth the reward IMO. Plus, just keeping up on every state's rules was insane. I'm much happier now...

29-Jan-18
I am on the fence with 10 pp points. Guess its decision making time soon ??

From: Buskill
29-Jan-18
I’ll stick with Idaho for a chance at a Shiras

From: Franzen
29-Jan-18
Yep. Dropped it last year. You're welcome for the small donation WY. Hope to be out of deer this year. I wanted G, but it isn't worth chasing any more, so I didn't even buy a point last year. No more elk points for me right now either. If I go it will be WY random or another state OTC.

From: HULLHEAVER
29-Jan-18
I had decided to burn my 3 points for Moose in WY in 2013 on a Cow tag. Turned out to be a wise move. Had a great hunt and ate Moose that fall. One day I will draw a bull tag here in CO but sitting on 3+14 and still waiting. Buddy's and I are hoping to burn our WY Elk points this year and then just go general every couple of years. My philosophy is you can't win if you don't play, but glad to hopefully be getting out of the point game in some states.

From: Bake
29-Jan-18
I’m glad I never started. I began the point game about 11 years ago. Fortunately, WY sheep and moose never drew me. I’ll gladly drop $15 for a never-to-draw Utah moose or sheep tag, but the cost and the preference aspect has kept me out of the Wyoming sheep and moose game

From: Nick Muche
29-Jan-18
I think you'll find that you'll be dropping out of sevaral more species in other states as well over the next few years...as long as your rational for leaving WY Moose holds true to other states/species.

29-Jan-18
I have 12 moose points in wyoming at i dont think i will ever draw a tag unless i get one in the random draw. there are still about 2500 people ahead of me at that point level. i am thinking of giving up too.

From: TreeWalker
29-Jan-18
If are dropping out and will have around $200 sitting there and want to hunt moose, do not apply for the Super Tag in WY. F&G is still rewarded for the screw job. Spend that money in ID on a moose tag with 1 in 25 odds or chase a moose raffle outside of WY. Good luck.

29-Jan-18
My decision to drop out when they increased the price from $7 seems a lot better now. I only had 4 pts then.

From: Nesser
29-Jan-18

Nesser's embedded Photo
Nesser's embedded Photo
I did this yesterday and took a screenshot because I couldn't believe I was spending that on basically an OTC tag. I have a plan and want to see it through but I bet Wyoming sees a pretty good drop in apps.

From: BOWUNTR
29-Jan-18
I'm still in for elk as well... when I draw in the next couple years, I'm done. Ed F

From: Treeline
29-Jan-18
Ouch, Nesser!

From: Trial153
29-Jan-18
I am in the special draw for elk as well. When I add the spread for three more years wait and the cost of the points I figure I might has well pull the tag and get out. My plan is draw a deer tag and lope tag in the nesxt three years and be totally out of WY.

From: nvgoat
29-Jan-18
I dropped out of moose three years ago and I had more than double the points you had. Already drew my sheep and several elk tags in Wy.

From: Shrewski
29-Jan-18
Never saw the point in killing a tiny Shiras Moose when one can go to Alaska and shoot a full size moose. I do have some Utah moose points though as it is so minor an expense and I’m already putting in for everything else there.

I’m in for the long haul on WY sheep and the “lesser” elk, deer, antelope.

From: midwest
29-Jan-18
I had been buying a few points so I could get a cow tag one day. I'm guessing those will become out of reach with the reduction in tags and others dumping their points to get some moose meat. That, along with the tag and PP price increase puts me out of that game.

From: Yellowjacket
29-Jan-18
The Sunk Cost Fallacy. The Misconception: You make rational decisions based on the future value of objects, investments and experiences. The Truth: Your decisions are tainted by the emotional investments you accumulate, and the more you invest in something the harder it becomes to abandon it.

I'm not in the Wyoming moose madness but here's something to think about to help some of you make your decision. :)

From: Stekewood
29-Jan-18
I dropped out of the sheep draw for exactly the same reasons after they bumped the price up the last time. All I can say is that eventually you will deeply regret your decision. ;-)

From: jstephens61
29-Jan-18
Started the moose point game last year. Ended the moose point game this year. I’ll save my money and head to Alaska. Wife told me I could last night while I was complaining about Wyoming.

29-Jan-18
"Never saw the point in killing a tiny Shiras Moose when one can go to Alaska and shoot a full size moose."

I'm of the mindset that I'd like the experience. I want to kill everything everywhere :)

I'd also like to kill a moose in Maine and put I in there. Maine, WY, and AK are completely different hunts and I'd like to do all 3 hunts.

"All I can say is that eventually you will deeply regret your decision. ;-)"

It's possible. But I think I won't. If I ever settle/retire in WY, I know I will. But the more I look at things, I'll be retiring in either AK or NM. If I thought I had a chance at a tag before the age of 70, I'd stick with it. But there's too much uncertainty that I won't when I crunch the numbers.

Plus, a big part of it is not the actual money but the idea. It's as much protest as anything else. I think it's BS for a govt agency to sell a turd, especially when you charge so much for it. If they're hard up for money, find a way to trim costs. All govt agencies have room for efficiency and cost-cutting IMO.

29-Jan-18
Well I think you can thank extra high populations of wolves and grizzlies for the rising prices and drop in tag numbers issued?

From: SBH
29-Jan-18
This is an eye opener of a post. THANK YOU.

From: wyliecoyote
29-Jan-18

wyliecoyote's embedded Photo
wyliecoyote's embedded Photo
I drew a Wyoming Unit 23 bull moose tag in 2013 with 12 PPs....and I knew I would draw then....I can see that I was fortunate to be a few years ahead of a lot of you...I am looking at my 40 1/2" bull on the wall right now thinking how different it is now...I suggested my son with 4 PPs to drop out this year....

Joe

29-Jan-18
MichaelArnette, yes. I really think it's the wolves as plummeting moose numbers correspond with the range and numbers of wolves. Moose numbers are stable in NE and SE WY where there are few wolves.

wyliecoyote, grats on your moose, I think I remember the pictures from 4.5 years ago when you got him. You'd be going into this year's draw with 17 points which would put you in a good position to draw a tag. I see not much has changed in the past 5 years.

From: antlerless
29-Jan-18
I’m sitting on 16 moose points in WY. I’ve been reading draw odds and feel I’m a few years out still from my top picks. I could probably draw a less known unit or one with lots of wilderness this year. Not really looking to go the outfitter route though. Don’t think I’ll ever draw the top units(Bighorns or 38) in this lifetime.

If I was sitting on less points I would probably drop out of the WY moose game. l’m all ears if someone has a suggestion on where to cash in my points.

From: Tjw
29-Jan-18
F#$!%$$$&@!!!!!k please people drop out. 11pts......

29-Jan-18
anterless, I'm a DIY hunter too. If I had 16 points, I'd put in for unit 3 and just keep doing it till I drew. You won't draw this year, but you should within the next 5-7 years and you will eventually and there's plenty of moose and few wolves/grizz in elk area 97 near Pinedale where you could hunt DIY.

29-Jan-18
Isn't the real issue here about policy and whether the wildlife is held in Trust for the public or if the Government owns the wildlife and has made a decision to turn access to what was the Public's wildlife into a cash cow?

Pricing people out of access to wildlife is what Roosevelt warned about, and took measures for future generations through the creation of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

Stop looking at your credit cards....

The real threat here is hunters allowing governments to put these kind of prices on wildlife.

Take the blinders off and realize what the future will be if hunters don't demand a change.

From: Stekewood
29-Jan-18
My intention when I started with both the moose and sheep points was to just hang in there for the long haul. After bailing on the sheep points when the fees bumped up, I stuck with the moose points intending to hold out for one of the premium areas. Once wolves put a hurtin on the NW areas and demand in general increased, I pulled the trigger on an area 25 tag and took a great bull. Don’t overlook the “lesser” units, especially at the cost of hanging in there for those areas that everyone wants to put in for.

From: Medicinemann
30-Jan-18
BOWUNTR, PM sent.

30-Jan-18
walking buffalo, I agree.

Stekewood, the problem is that unit 25 is still a ridiculous pipe dream for anyone with 10 points or less and it now costs $160/yr to just apply. I'm glad you got your bull.

From: Huntcell
30-Jan-18
Gone are the days of drawing with zero points 2000 for me and 2001 for two hunting buddies. All three took archery bulls DIY . A lot changed in 18 years. Met an old Bowsiters out there and he reminisces about drawing 3-4 Wy moose tags now that’s going back aways.

If didn’t have that mandatory five year wait I would be back in the game by now.

From: marktm250
30-Jan-18
Real eye opener here. Thankfully there are still some OTC tags but those may also get tossed into limited draws as demand increases or more revenue needs generated? At this point, I will never experience applying 15 years or spending 20,000 for the tag. In my case at least, I would think it would put a lot of pressure on the hunt and make it a touch less enjoyable since if you eat the tag, there would be a long wait for the next one.

From: Deertick
30-Jan-18
If the "real problem" of pricing were fixed, and the cost were more "reasonable", there would be exponentially more people in the game.

From: cnelk
30-Jan-18
I applied for my moose tag here in Colorado for 18 years before I finally drew in 2009.

At that time I was even considering 'dumping' my PPs on a cow to get out of the point game - and was that only Resident odds!

Luckily, I drew and happened to shoot one of those 'tiny' Shiras moose.

I havent applied for any moose PPs since then, but now that CPW changed up its system, I will apply for cow PPs and should hunt again in 3-4 years

Here's my 'tiny' B&C Shiras :)

View post on imgur.com

From: gobbler
30-Jan-18

gobbler's embedded Photo
gobbler's embedded Photo
I’m glad I got my Wyoming Shiras in 2000

From: cnelk
30-Jan-18
Moose hunting was so much fun, I researched and saved up some $$$ and in 2016 I went up to Alaska and shot a 'full sized' moose

View post on imgur.com

From: cnelk
30-Jan-18
For reference, here are my 'tiny' Shiras and my 'full size' Alaska moose

If you want to go moose hunting, you should go

View post on imgur.com

From: South Farm
30-Jan-18
No such thing as a "tiny" moose. I think he meant "mouse"..

From: Mint
30-Jan-18
After reading this thread I'm glad I never played the game except for moose in Maine, VT & NH. Gave up on those when I found out they were basically rigged for the residents.

From: duvall
30-Jan-18
"they were basically rigged for the residents".....as well it should be. For the life of me, I don't get why people who don't live a certain state and support it with taxes have a problem with the people who do live there getting preferential treatment. I just don't get it. Are there animals that I would like to hunt outside Pennsylvania? you bet there are...but I know i'll never get to being a NR and I'm fine with that. I'm not going to sit and complain about it. I can always move if it means that much to me.

From: gobbler
30-Jan-18
Unfortunately for a lot of people it just came down to when you were born and able to start accumulating points. I was able to get in early and draw some great tags. I got in during the beginning in WY and drew moose and sheep in early 2000s. I feel bad for people just getting started

From: Kurt
30-Jan-18
I drew WY Shiras in 1991 after applying 10 or 12 years. Don’t think there was even preference points yet but don’t remember. Glad I was on the front end of these hunts. Never did draw CO moose in 25 years of applying or UT in about 12. I don’t apply in any state’s drawings anymore, just in BC for special hunts. May get a CO deer preference point this year to keep the account active, or may let it go.....haven’t decided.

From: pav
30-Jan-18
My WY moose history mirrors Stekewood for the most part. I bailed on my sheep points when the fees jumped from $7 to $100. Did the math and didn't like what I saw. Same math was applied for the moose points, which jumped from $7 to $75. Figured I could draw a bull moose tag in 5-6 years...and that's exactly what happened. I did change my area choice from Area 26 to Area 5 for better draw odds. Killed a good representative bull and saw an absolute azz kicker after filling my tag (of course!). I burned 13 moose points in 2013, no regrets. That said, if I would have been a couple years behind....those moose points would have likely gone down the drain with my sheep points.

From: Mad Trapper
30-Jan-18
Duvall you would agree with me then that it is preposterous that a NR has the same chance as a resident of PA in drawing a PA elk tag. PA should treat NR's the same as other states treat NR's.

30-Jan-18

DEMO-Bowhunter's embedded Photo
DEMO-Bowhunter's embedded Photo
I applied with points for the first couple years and then once I realized that the points didn't give me any advantage as Ike illustrates, I just started applying for a unit with a random tag the past few years.

Last year was the lucky year, I drew random and shot what I believe was a good bull for the unit on the second day. Had a great time in WY!

30-Jan-18
"If the "real problem" of pricing were fixed, and the cost were more "reasonable", there would be exponentially more people in the game."

Of course.

That is the crux of the issue. Do we advocate for Public wildlife where everyone has an equal chance to access the resource or do we advocate where access is only available to those that can afford to.

If the later is chosen, in time 99% of the hunting community will be excluded from the limited tags. Chances are that will include you, and your children.

And then where does that leave the hunting Public's interest in protecting hunting opportunities for species they can never afford to hunt?

The only reason we have a chance to hunt these animals today is because our Elders knew of these concerns, they knew what happens when the system is centered around exclusionary practices based on finances, and they took measures to not let this happen.

And here we are now.... allowing our inheritance to be sold.

30-Jan-18
If you really really really want to hunt WY moose, then a lot of people can afford the $160/year to apply. If it were $160/yr to apply and all NR tags were in a lottery or a BP system, I'd keep applying. The problem is that the $150 preference point is a complete sham. You're paying for a turd. It worked to get you a tag 15+ years ago, but it no longer works. The system is broken as every PP system gets when demand greatly outstrips supply.

From: TreeWalker
30-Jan-18
Quote: "they were basically rigged for the residents".....as well it should be. For the life of me, I don't get why people who don't live a certain state and support it with taxes have a problem with the people who do live there getting preferential treatment. I just don't get it. Are there animals that I would like to hunt outside Pennsylvania? you bet there are...but I know i'll never get to being a NR and I'm fine with that. I'm not going to sit and complain about it. I can always move if it means that much to me.

My perspective on the above opinion. Same could be said of parks and beaches and Universities and state roads and a bunch of other stuff primarily paid for by the locals. The Amish like to be insular and keep outsiders outside, too.

Residents should get the lion's share of tags. Setting aside up to 20% for NR will help the economy of your state as NR will spend more on average.

Also, in some states over half the NR with tags were previously residents of that state or now have family in that state that try to return to hunt while visiting family and friends.

You can hunt as NR in lots of places for various big game by buying OTC tags prior to start of season for whitetail deer in MO, elk in CO, archery Coues deer in AZ, mule deer and elk in ID (I think). You can hunt Rocky bighorns in MT. Every year, you can hunt deer, elk and sheep, guaranteed. WY pronghorn is not OTC but are good units you can draw each year as a first time applicant.

30-Jan-18
Dang Ike, don't like to hear this, as there are some 'random' tags to be had...

Luck of the draw! I'm kind of going Kota's route myself...After looking at app fees in several states, when I could just be hunting instead...

That, or just concentrating on a few states I really enjoy hunting...Tough call either way...

From: Mike-TN
30-Jan-18

Mike-TN's embedded Photo
Mike-TN's embedded Photo
I dropped out of WY in 2015 with 13 points.....right after I drew a CO tag with 4 weighted points. I figured 2 shirts moose (drew MT in 2008) and 1 AK Yukon was enough for me. :). I have been lucky on the moose draws.

Mike

From: Willieboat
30-Jan-18
With the new fee increase i sure hope my 18 points will be enough to get me out of this mess ;)

From: TXHunter
30-Jan-18

TXHunter's embedded Photo
TXHunter's embedded Photo
I drew the only Area 1 NR random draw tag back in 2005. My first high-end tag. So glad I did.

WY moose have been a losing game ever since. You can blame the WG&F if you want, but the real blame lies with the wolves.

From: Quinn @work
31-Jan-18
Huge Bull Txhunter.

It's not "blaming WG&F"

The real issue is Wyoming knows the wolve's affect on the WY moose population but still choose to rape the NR"s by increasing tag and preference point costs next to a rapidly declining population and draw odds because they can.

I'm too far into it to drop out now. WY got me.

31-Jan-18
Moose numbers are dropping because of wolves, there's no arguing that. But even with the pre-wolf tag numbers and demand, the preference point system was broken from the get-go, it was just a matter of time. It worked for the first 5-7 years worth of people who got in and excludes everyone who comes after except for people who get in very early in life and draw when very old.

A preference point system where a tag has somewhere around 25-30% or more point creep per year, will eventually become unsustainable, whereas the only people drawing the tag are the people who got in at an early age and draw when they were very old (no point system has been around long enough for this to have been observed yet; a preference point system would have had to have been around for around 50 years for this to be observed and the oldest preference point systems are now in their 3rd decades).

Some of these tags have point creep exceeding 90%. In CA's sheep draw, if you didn't get in year 1, you have no chance in the PP round going forward from year one all the way till all of those thousands of guys die, so you're talking 50-60 years before guys that got started year 2, start to pull PP round tags. Immediately, the system created, gave 1 group of people far better odds of drawing their entire lives and then ensured that everyone else would be drawing sheep tags in their 80s till the system is scrapped. Wyoming is headed that way, just not as quickly as CA because they have more tags.

31-Jan-18
To give an example on point creep %, CO unit 61 elk consistently has around 80-85% point creep. Around every 5-6 years, the point creep doesn't bump a year (an example of a 20% point creep unit would be where the points needed to draw are one point more every 5 years. 25% point creep, you'd need one more point every 4 years).

If you catch up a year every 5-6 years and you're 5 points behind what it takes to draw in a given year, then you're looking at 25-30 years before you catch being in the draw. If the unit takes 21 points as CO 61 archery does, and you have 16 points, you're looking at needing 41-46 points to draw at current rate of creep. If you have 10 points, it'll take you 65-76 points or 55-66 years from now. Hope you're not 40 years old with 10 points chasing 61 because you will be pushing daisies before you will draw.

Now, one might say that the baby-boomers will start dying and that will free up the upper echelons of point holders and decrease the higher end point creep and this is absolutely true. But it again matters the % of point creep. There will be guys who hold out and draw late in life and there will be guys who got in early and eventually what you have is a system that only rewards people who get in very early and draw late in life. Eventually, a guy who gets in at age 35 has no chance of surviving long enough to draw the tag. Point creep will slow, but it'll keep going up till the guys who got in early are drawing at an old age.

Is what we want as a group (hunters), is that only 70-80 year olds are drawing the most coveted tags? I guess it's easy as a 39 year old for me to say no, but I decided to work 1/2 time now in exchange for working later in life. And I did that because I can do these hunts now and just looking at the hunts I've done in the last few years and my knowledge of the abilities of even fit men in their 70s and 80s, I won't be able to do in my 70s and 80s what I'm doing now, no matter my fitness level.

Preference point systems are broken. They are broken if the unit creeps past 20 or so points before the very old are drawing them. And they've been broken since they were created. It's simple math.

From: Stekewood
31-Jan-18
Thats an excellent explanation Ike. There’s also the wildcard of permit numbers as influenced by predators, disease, habitat loss etc..... even a slight reduction in permits will dramatically effect point creep.

From: TXHunter
31-Jan-18
You guys are unfortunately correct in your analysis. WY is killing two birds with one stone in its price increases: 1)trying to weed out the # of folks in the draws for sheep/moose and 2)making less work itself for the same (or more) $$$.

I’m thinking that if lots of folks don’t drop out that WY’s next move will be to convert to a bonus point system.

From: Franzen
31-Jan-18
Of course Ike is right, just like he has been on this issue. I actually only got in the moose game to begin with because I thought I'd put in for a few years hoping to get lucky on a random tag. Even when I started not too long ago, there were a couple Areas that had a decent shot at a random tag. It was much like a raffle as far as I'm concerned, because I never expected to draw a PP license (Edit: I thought it was a remote possibility late in life, but definitely not expected). Then the cost of the raffle got too high, so for now I'll only pay Wyoming to apply and if they actually give me a license to hunt.

From: Trial153
31-Jan-18
What most of us is looking at is 165$ yearly cost for a less than 1% random chance , plus floating the the tag cost which is insane. So let’s be stupidly optimistic as say you will draw 1 of 100 Times your looking at 16500 in fees alone because the current points awarded will never be enough to overcome the rate of creep. The answer is book a freaking moose hunt in Canada or Alaska and stop flushing your money down the shitter.

From: Trial153
31-Jan-18
Even worse odds are the super raffle that WY is running, if you look at the total amounts they taking in on it it’s easy to guesstimate the amount of tickets sold. WY is my no fly list, I will draw my elk tag this year and in the nest two or three years schedule permitting I will dump my deer and lope points as well. Can’t wait to out of that money pit.

From: Michael
31-Jan-18
In 2014 I was contemplating putting in for a cow tag since I knew I would never draw a bull tag. Today I sure am glad I never did. One day I will hunt moose and it will be in Alaska.

From: Lost Arra
31-Jan-18
The Super Tag raffle seems like a harmless fund raiser to me. It reminds me of an article I read by a math scholar on the Powerball lottery. The odds of winning are awful, absolutely worse than terrible but if you buy one ticket your odds are not zero. And the purpose of both is to raise money, not to make people rich or plan hunts.

31-Jan-18
Franzen, same here. 4-5 years ago, there was actually 3.5% odds in 5 and 24-26 weren't far behind that. I figured at those odds I'd just put in for 30 years and hope for one in the random with zero expectation of ever catching the PP tags. But now the odds are dropping and the cost to apply doubled. Again, I fully suspect that within 5 years that there will only be two random tags left, unit 38 and 1 in 25. The random odds continue to drop yearly along with total tags. There'll probably be a bump this year as people drop out, but I don't think it'll be enough to make it worth it.

From: Irishman
01-Feb-18
Years ago, I bought a preference point in Wyoming for elk. Then I looked at how point creep worked and decided I was too cheap to keep paying for preference points. It seems that Wyoming has created kind of a monster, in that once you have put so much money in, that you don't want to quit entering no matter what they decide to charge you. I think there should be a point when you have paid enough and they should stop charging so much. Maybe something like after your 10th year of buying preference points, you should only be charged $50/year.

From: BULELK1
01-Feb-18
Dang Iddy-------kinda sad to see ya pull out of the Moose game.

I drew mine when it was 'only' $750.00 and I thought that was pricey!

Good luck, Robb

From: sticksender
01-Feb-18
The next change WY makes in response to point creep may be to increase the random portion of the tag allocation to 50%. That very proposal was on an opinion survey they mailed out a few years back. Of course that'd make point creep worse, but it would allow for more random draw opps.

From: TreeWalker
01-Feb-18
The random tags for bull moose for NR in WY are dwindling. Once WY cuts allocation down to 10% for NR then WY has two choices to prevent killing the cash cow that is sustained by point creep: Convert Preference system to Bonus System most likely with squaring (see NV et al) or to bump up Random pool so the 10% is not by unit but by species (see ID moose draw). Or a combo of conversion and expansion of random bucket.

WY F&G is so focused on accumulating the most $$ per NR tag issued that game management is not about how to manage wildlife but rather how to manage cash inflow per tag issued. Increasing app fees, bonus fees, archery permit and tags is easier than growing herds as a way to grow revenues.

Presumably, a mandatory license purchase to apply is in the works. That will get Rudd Pittman funds, too, so a leveraged cash infusion is launched.

Luckily for WY, MT or CO or another state will find a way to shift our focus so will hate on them just like no one complains about the MT combo increase anymore.

From: MathewsMan
01-Feb-18
I bailed the year PP's went from $7 to $75 and I had max points. Probably would have drawn for certain by now had I stayed in it.

From: WapitiBob
01-Feb-18
I can kill 3 Elk, 6 Antelope, and 6 Deer in 30+ day seasons, Elk ratios at 30/100 or more, and above objective most everywhere.

I'm pretty sure they know what they're doing when it comes to Game Management.

01-Feb-18
I'm unfortunately in it for the long haul. I have 13 PP. I am kicking myself for missing a year or two over that time. Each point really adds up to years as pointed out. Maybe I can draw Moose in 10 more years?

I dropped WY sheep back when it went went to $100. that worked out since I got a Colorado ram ;)

From: BULELK1
20-Feb-18
I have drawn a couple Rocky Ram tags so I quit applying for Sheep in Wyo to maybe give some one else a chance at a tag.

Every little bit helps---------->

Good luck, Robb

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