Dropping out of WY Elk?
Elk
Did not want to hi-jack the Moose thread.
Just wondering how many non-residents have decided to drop out of WY elk system due to the "overall price increase" OR "principle of the increase".
My 3 partners decided to drop out due to both, the overall price increase and the principle of the increase.
Just a fact of life...inflationary pressures...supply and demand. If you want to do anything, it will be cheaper today than it will be in the future. I'll buy another point for 2018 for a future hunt. Gotta pay if you want to play!
The price isn't forcing me to drop out as much as the point creep.
I told them I'm staying the course until my body makes that decision for me!
Love it when I hear people say they are dropping out because they can't be very dedicated to the sport when the last fee increase was way back in 2008 and now they are griping that the price is too high! For cripes sake, save just $10 a week and it will more than cover the PP and fee increase for the year and quit your griping! The G&F has a lot of things that they are mandated to do by the Legislature and they can't do it on a shoestring.
Agree with Inshart. I don't like price increases that are unreasonable, but the point creep is the main concern.
Paid 1355 for elk, with a voluntary donation to access yes so everyone can have spots to hunt. It is pricey when I can pay 45 for a Colorado tag. It is worth it to me, but I reserve the right to change my mind when the wind is blowing with hurricane force or I am stuck in the middle of a torrential downpour or September blizzard
The last non-resident elk tag I bought was $625 or something close to that. What is it now?
It’s got to get a lot worse for me to drop out. I doubt I will build much for points though. I don’t need more then 2 points to have a good hunt.
Inshart so what will your friends do? Walk away or dump what they have on a general license?
I dropped out. Last hunt was 2016 and I didn't buy a 2017 point, nor do I plan to do so in the near future. Guess I'm not a dedicated hunter.
I will tell you this, I don't need to save money to do the hunt, it is just a matter of principle for me. They are knowingly increasing the PP costs (don't think they've actually raised elk YET), when they know point creep is getting worse. This isn't really supportive of the NA Model if you ask me, just like a purely supply and demand model isn't. If it's okay to simply maximize revenue, then just auction everything to the highest bidder and be done with it.
The principal is lost on many....
They may be able to pay the price, odds are their kids won't.
I don't like the price increases that I'm seeing across the board and no I won't be dropping out. Yes there are lots of selfish guys that love see folks drop out.. To me this is the beginning of the end to hunting every time you hear a guy is dropping out.
If this was the year 2055 and you can get two bull tag because hunter numbers are down 85% from the year 2018 there will be lot of happy hunters if the non-hunting public will allow hunting at all.
Ed
I would guess that most on here are fairly conservative and capitalists. Wyoming has a product for which there is more demand than product. The are trying to get the maximum price for their product while keeping shareholders (residents) happy.
I find the idea that you would drop out because of the "principle" more than a little entertaining.
I guess I can't think of too many things that haven't gone up in the last 8 years. My tax break should more than cover the increase. :-)
LKH,
Do you understand why You have a legal right to hunt "Wildlife" today?
Product, shareholders, maximum price.... Please learn your history on Wildlife management.
LKH, re-read my post. Wildlife is not a product, unless you are against the NA Model. I am not. In that case, tags should be sold or auctioned to the highest bidder, like I stated. Then we can just speed up the process and stop pretending. Based on your post, I'm not sure you know what the word "principle" means.
Well I didn’t drop out but I applied this yea for in the special draw. The unit I wanted I was at least three points shy...so paying for the special and then I am done. No more wY points for me. In two years I will be cash in deer and lope. Dumping moose and sheep this year. I am done with them.
I understand "principle". What I don't get is how it can be applied to a license/fee increase by Wyoming. The U.S. Congress has passed a law that allows western states the complete control of the wildlife (endangered species aside) within their boundaries.
Wildlife management is primarily dominated by the agencies having to manage people. I do understand not wanting to pay more but I don't understand why you feel they should not do so. The wildlife we hunt belong to the state and they want more money for it.
Mule, we all have 2 points and we always hunt general draw - normally takes 2 points, so we ( I am ) are almost a sure bet to draw. Personally, I would be VERY, VERY (as my wife puts it) "grumpy" if I couldn't go elk hunting every year.... there choice not to go.
For those who say this is no big deal - go back and read the reasoning behind why Teddy Roosevelt thought is was so important to preserve so much property for the rights of the "COMMON MAN". His ideal was to keep the cost down to afford EVERYONE a place to hunt. This keeps up and hunting will be like Europe where only the elite will be able to hunt, if (as others have pointed out) we even have the ability to hunt due to our government and/or anti hunters putting an end to hunting all together....
And yeah, I've heard it all MANY times .... it's a capitalist society, quit whining ..... bla, bla, bla. Not whining, just stating facts.
Last month I priced it out and to hunt WY this year, including the PP's it came to like $935.00 - to me that's not the end of the world and as stated - I'll keep at it until my body gives out. Bottom line - I'm going somewhere, if not WY then OTC in CO.
Ouch that is high but I’ll be playing again
1300 plus for the special draw... the price is insane.
I look at my hunts for what they are....vacations. Basically, for $1300 and gas money, I can set up elk camp for 2-3 weeks and have a blast (I don't count food, because I have to eat regardless). Yeah, the cost keeps going up, but it is still ALOT cheaper than spending one week at a vacation resort. (Alot more fun too!)
LKH,
Based on your response, it appears that you do not understand the principle.
If you want to understand, please read up on the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.
http://wildlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/North-American-model-of-Wildlife-Conservation.pdf
I'm dropping out of the moose race because of the cost increase with terrible odds. At least with elk, you can still draw. There is some point creep for the general tag, but there's also units out there that you can put in for that are quality hunts and hope for a tag in the random round and the odds for a general tag in the random round this year will still be over 1 in 10. That's not bad. I'll continue to play the WY elk game, but I also burn my points as often as I can. Chasing the top units in southern WY is crazy - many of these units are still around 10% odds for max points. Even running 7-8 points right now those units are a pipe dream.
The way things are going, I would venture to say that within the next 5 or so years, if you want to hunt elk anywhere in the US, it'll cost you north of $900.00.
Does anyone have a copy of the questionnaire Wy sent nonresidence several years ago about price increases etc.? It was very clear their intention is to make as much money as they can - period.
Food for thought. I have the money and I don’t work so I’m lucky and it won’t stop me it will help me. However it is definitely not fair.
If you think this is the end you are wrong. It’s going to get worse much worse.
i got 6 points in wyoming for elk so i am going to hang in and cash in within next 5 years and call it good.
From: DonVathome 31-Jan-18 Does anyone have a copy of the questionnaire Wy sent nonresidence several years ago about price increases etc.? It was very clear their intention is to make as much money as they can - period. Food for thought. I have the money and I don’t work so I’m lucky and it won’t stop me it will help me. However it is definitely not fair. If you think this is the end you are wrong. It’s going to get worse much worse.
*** I have no idea how you came up with those comments, but I don't believe Wyoming ever sent anything out to NRs on anything having to do with price increases and certainly nothing you are saying about making their intentions clear, LOL! The Legislature and not the G&F is the one that sets the fees and FYI the fees have been the same for ten years until this recent price increase was passed that went into effect for 2018. Other than a couple of the ridiculous price increases for Bison and PPs for Moose and Sheep, the prices IMHO were not exorbitant if that increase was imposed partially for each of the last ten years. If done that way, people would probably not be saying anything, but do it all at once after nothing for 10 years and for some it's like the sky is falling in!
The whole point creep thing doesn’t mean much to me. I can’t see A) Waiting 5 or 6 or however many years to hunt elk in Wyoming. B) Spending my valuable time hunting somewhere I don’t know and can’t come back to for another 5 or 6 or however many years. As of now the most points I need is 2. The past several years I’ve drawn with zero by finding partners with more points than they need.
Ditto Pav...... compared to other vacations elk hunting is cheap. I spend a fortune for a room in Key West where I spend a fortune to drink and eat.
Move to WY and it's a lot cheaper. It's just a fact of life everythingy goes up. Look at how much vehicle's cost now days!
I also agree with Pav's assessments of the cost. And I commute 100 miles per day for my job. So in 3 weeks I commute 1500 miles and round trip to WY is about 2400 miles so my additional fuel cost for elk hunting is only about $270.
Funny how when I'm out in the mountains hunting I don't spend any money and when I get back and my paychecks have been direct deposited it seems like I made/saved money by being gone hunting. :^)
Agree 110% with Topgun & pav. There has been zero increase in license fees since 2008. Name anything else that hasn't increased in price in that time period, let alone entertainment. The price increase wasn't extravagant...it basically raised the price to what other western states charge for their license fees, and they DID NOT raise the PP fee.
As pav points out, where else can you spend a month bowhunting elk, then spend another couple weeks with a rifle if you so chose, for the cost of an elk license?!
Then again, I also agree with Scoot. Wyoming is screwing you, so you all should stick to your principles and drop out. It'll make it easier for my son to draw! ;-)
So moose PP fee unchanged? I misunderstood then as heard it edged up a few dollars. Keeping the archery permit the same helps, too.
TreeWalker, elk PP’s remained the same. Moose PP’s increased to $150. I completely understand the anger at that.
All nr point fees went up slightly, special archery went to $70, and the Sheep and Moose increase is a non issue as the nr who hunt those species can afford it ( per the commission ).
Okay, I read it. Took quite a while and I still don't see how there is a principle cited that precludes states from charging non-residents more to hunt. While they do discuss how excess fees may make it difficult for some to hunt, they definitely hold that management must be done under law and what WY is doing is according to their laws.
The reading seems to imply that wildlife on private land should be accessible to the public. That principle runs hard against our belief in private property and has zero chance of occurring, especially in the west.
The tag fee increases were pretty much in line with other states. CO raises their tag price a little each year. If WY doesn't raise their tag prices for another 10 years, CO will catch up to WY again. IMO, the tag prices are reasonable (except for bison and grizzly), but the PP costs are just dumb. The archery license cost is also ridiculous.
As far as being able to hunt rifle after archery, I wish it wasn't like that honestly. If every unit had type 9 tags, it'd be sooooo much easier to draw a good archery tag in Wyoming. If there was an archery general tag too, that would cost less than the rifle version as well. There's less bowhunters than rifle hunters. Our odds are hurt by there being hardly any dedicated archery tags and getting lumped in with the rifle hunters in the draws.
I have two other friends who are non-residents who also got the questionnaire from Wyoming a few years ago. A simple call to them could clear this all up. How much does Wy make per sheep tag for nonresident just based off of preference points and license sales?
Not one other state cost even one quarter as much to build points across the board
My personal favorite was always be that it is in line with other states. If other state jumped off a bridge ....
Don, last year there were something like 11,800 NRs with points for just moose. Multiplied by $75, which is how much it was last year, that's $885,000.
Antelope: 66,500 x $30 = $2,000,000
Deer: 66,000 x $40 = 2.6 million dollars
Elk: 77,500 x $50 = 3.875 million dollars
Sheep: 10,400 x $100 = 1 million dollars
This is last year's prices and point holder's points. Granted, this is a list of people who have points, and it doesn't subtract the people who dropped out, but... Wyoming is already making millions off of points - the above sum is over 10 million dollars and this was before raising the prices for some species. Again, most states don't even take in 10 million dollars in NR tag prices and the 10 million dollars mentioned does not factor in NR tag prices.
The funny thing is that the points really are just an imaginary thing with no real intrinsic value. IMO, they are just a counting mechanism that they should do already. Charging $150 for a computer to keep count is just ridiculous. It's like AZ's point guard: what a racket: that's something they should just be doing anyways as a service.
If the F&G depts need more money, the first place they should be looking is in their own bedrooms and cutting govt waste that is ubiquitous in all government agencies. The last thing they should be doing is charging ridiculous amounts for a computer to count how many times you've applied.
"If the F&G depts need more money, the first place they should be looking is in their own bedrooms and cutting govt waste that is ubiquitous in all government agencies. The last thing they should be doing is charging ridiculous amounts for a computer to count how many times you've applied"
Ike nailed my feelings. I have a good friend and former neighbor who lets just say is a high ranking big game person for Colorado Parks and Wildlife. I asked him why Wyoming managed their point system and applications the way they do (i.e. losing your points for not applying for consecutive years). He didn't understand why they did and he noted that Colorado would not even consider it due to it being an administrative nightmare and more importantly unnecessary costs to manage it.
"(i.e. losing your points for not applying for consecutive years)"
You can skip a year
Scott, preference point systems are the whores of the application world. You pay to play, there's no real substance, and after several years of doing it, you're too old to make it happen :)
I think some people should take a look at the money making model a little differently. I don’t think it is reasonable to see it as a supply demand curve moving the price to the highest possible profit margin. (How much would Uncle Sam make if he pushed drivers license fees to $100,$500, or $1000 per year?)
Rather, I see it more like the fish and game along with the elected officials are the boss/ceo. The hunters are the employees. Each needs the other. Except, the ceo doesn’t need all of you, doesn’t feel he owes you anything, and doesn’t care if you quit. The hunters will show up as long as it’s worth it to them. The ceo is playing the short game with little interest in long term sustainability beyond his/her tenure.
I don’t like it but that is how the decisions are made even though many in the fish and game as well as many hunters know it is a bad long term plan.
Also, Comparing one bad model to the state next door with a worse model is not justifiable in my opinion.
I spent years guiding in Wyoming, love it there but quit applying for points years ago when it was obvious I was never going to hunt 38. Yes there are other great areas.
I recently bought a muzzleloader and have found some good buck hunting in CO. I have a young son that will start making my western trips with me soon. They very well may turn to fishing trips for the next 15 years.
My point is some people bich and moan but more often others just fade away to something else.
Wyoming could likely manage their elk herd with multiple licenses for residents without nr. But there economy would suffer no doubt.
LKH,
I appreciate that you took the time to read the summary. Not many hunters have. The document gives some insight into WHY we even have licenced hunting today. Without the efforts of our predecessors, elk etc. really would just be product owned by shareholders.
No one said the price increase was illegal.What was noted is a recognition that these increases come at a cost greater than just the pocketbook, taking a path in the direction that could eliminate "public" access to "Wildlife".
It is not that one path is right and the other is wrong. Either direction is what it is, with predictable consequences. It is up to the People to decide what they want.
I just play the game as each states dictates to apply/draw.
It is just another form of entertainment for me and it is enjoyable.
Good luck, Robb
I have 11 WY Elk points, should be 12 but forgot to buy the point one year. That point makes a big difference: being in the max pool or not.
Now I'm looking for options to use them up in the next year or two.
nope... but I hunt general when I go.. worth it ...
In the same boat WW. Hoping to cash out in the next year or two myself.
Crap, I have 11 too and feel like dropping out...Amazing how one (1) Point can be such a pain in the ass! Lol...
Idyllwildarcher: where did you find the preference point per species info? Do they separate point holders by how many they currently hold?
Never mind. I found it. I do wish it separated out how many unsuccessfully applied in a unit with how many points. Once it goes down to the 0% chance everyone is bunched together (example <8, first choice applicants: 1000, 0%). I want to know how many applied with 7 with 6 with 5 etc. That would tell me a little more about where I stand. I just know I'm two points below the minimum that drew last year but I don't know how many are in the same boat.
DonV the survey from WGFD you're referring to may be the one they sent out back in 2010. I believe this is the only survey I've ever gotten from Wyoming as a NR. It was a proposal to increase the random portion of the tag allocation from 25% to 50% for sheep & moose. And also some proposals for waiting periods.
Page 1 Survey Cover Letter Page 2 Survey Cover Letter Page 3 Survey Cover Letter Thanks for that Info, as I had never heard of the G&F sending out any such surveys other than the random one they send at the end of hunting seasons asking for hunter days, etc. I really wish people that are making so many negative comments about the Wyoming prices knew what the situation actually is out there. The economy is obviously tanking in a state like that where they depend so much on the coal, methane, gas industries to stay afloat. As I mentioned, the G&F fees have remained static since the last increase in 2008. However, the cost of doing business keeps going up just like our household, food, bills, and other costs do. What most of you probably don't even know is that when the Legislature raised these fees for 2018 they completely eliminated the $6 million in General Funds the G&F was getting that paid for several of their mandated programs. Now even with that fee increase they figure they are still in the hole by approximately $1 million dollars and will be in dire straits again in about 4 years, so look for another increase by then and be happy that the state is so liberal with the amount of NR tags it gives out when in actually a state doesn't have to give a NR anything!
"I want to know how many applied with 7 with 6 with 5 etc. That would tell me a little more about where I stand. I just know I'm two points below the minimum that drew last year but I don't know how many are in the same boat. "
You can file a public info request and get a detailed point pool report. They've been doing a bunch for both Sheep and Moose because of the price increase so the request won't be a surprise.
LOL! Ike, if preference points are like hookers...... makes me think of what to call an OTC DIY......
" I really wish people that are making so many negative comments about the Wyoming prices knew what the situation actually is out there."
Not about money, but missing that one damn point...Lol
"The funny thing is that the points really are just an imaginary thing with no real intrinsic value."
Points are gaining traction to have monetary value...I have read where guys with higher point totals are joining lower point holders and bartered...legal or not it's happening.
Tom, I don’t know why you’d have to wonder. The answer is in the name: DIY
Legal in Wyoming and should be an option everywhere points matter.
I just applied for my first ever elk tag, a general tag with three points. Will consider it a bargain for three weeks in Wyoming, my first Western trip for this Eastern hunter!
Not sure why raising the cost for hunters to participate is how to best raise money. So, WY screws the F&G and the F&G looks to hunters to be 100% of the funding solution? WY will have fewer applicants for elk in 5 years than today. The Max guys will mostly be drawn out by then and will be painfully obvious how long the back of the line has to wait to get that tag again. Too many options to hunt elk and another option is to stop hunting elk. If you stop, probably your kid will not start. Nor their kids. Fewer NR hiring outfitters, etc. When industries gather around the table at the State Capitol, the Outdoors industry will find that each year it is sitting a few seats further from the decision-makers. Voters are less likely to be hunters, too, each election cycle and soon WY becomes Cali where every anti-hunting petition, referendum or proposed law is not only easy to get passed but is a sure vote-getter for candidates.
WY should lay off the NR hunters and look at anyone venturing into the outdoors using state assets. Charge to park at trailheads. Require Conservation Pass to park at parking lots, to camp on state land, etc. Birdwatchers and potheads camping can toss money into the hat as well. Usage fees and other "non-tax" methods to extract a dollar here and a dollar there are not desirable but in this case those enjoying the trails and seeing the wildlife are paying more rather than dropping 100% onto hunters. It is lazy.
fish and game knows they can keep raising the fees till the apps go down below the quota. they are going to keep doing it till that happens.
From: kentuckbowhnter 03-Feb-18 fish and game knows they can keep raising the fees till the apps go down below the quota. they are going to keep doing it till that happens. Once and for all, G&F doesn't raise the fees, the Legislature does and they also took away all general Fund money to the tune of $6 million bucks. How in the H do you guys figure anyone can run the Department with everything they are mandated to do without the fees they get from hunting/fishing and the taxes on hunting related equipment? Treewalker is also as full of it as anything I've read in a long time about what he says will happen. To the contrary things are just the opposite of what he states and will continue to be just the opposite of what he projects. I've never seen such a bunch of whiners about fees when most that have a problem with them are probably driving trucks that cost 50 to 60 grand and waste more money every month or two on junk than their fee increases will ever amount to! I have news for you in that Wyoming is the best state out west the way they treat NRs with the amount of licenses they will issue. Name another state out west where a NR can you take 3 elk, 6 deer, and 6 antelope legally in one season!!!
Top gun, I do believe the legislature raises the ceiling on fees. However, F&G can decide whether or not they want to raise them or not. So basically, F&G does decide to raise prices, up to the ceiling the legislature has voted to allow.
From: Mossyhorn 03-Feb-18 Top gun, I do believe the legislature raises the ceiling on fees. However, F&G can decide whether or not they want to raise them or not. So basically, F&G does decide to raise prices, up to the ceiling the legislature has voted to allow.
***The G&F can only make financial decisions on a very limited basis that the Legislature has voted on and passed. The Bill that was recently passed by the Legislature only allows the G&F to raise PP fees as they see fit up to the maximum specified in the Bill. A completely different and separate Bill was passed regarding all the other fees the department collects. Obviously the Department has to have enough money to run properly, so sure, if they see they don't have enough to properly do everything they are mandated to do by the Legislature they will approach particular Legislators with their needs and things go from there to a particular Committee for analysis to see what, if anything, needs to be raised to keep the Department solvent. You are essentially incorrect in saying that the G&F decides to raise prices because they only go to the Legislature like I mentioned and have no final say as to what happens. Also, when it comes to licenses and most fees the Legislature alone sets the rates and the Department just collects the money that the Bill raise the rates to. At one time a number of years ago a Legislator introduced a Bill to allow the Department to raise fees on a yearly basis based on the current inflation rate, but the Bill was defeated. If it had passed, we wouldn't be here arguing about what everyone thinks is such a huge increase when the last one was ten years ago since the fees would already be what they are if they had been raised on a yearly basis using the inflation rate.
Whining. So much whining. If only those of us whining were not so ignorant. After all, even if half drop out are no worse for wear, right? The math checks out. Revenues are no worse for wear and demand for tags still exceeds supply. And I still see $50K trucks. Win win.
Not quite. First, we are in an economic boom and will not last so there will be a lot of $50K trucks with for sale signs in a year or two. Those guys will not be buying moose points anymore.
Second, big game hunting out West has declining participation rates and the average age of participants in increasing which shows recruitment of replacement hunters is failing. WY F&G just made it harder to recruit future big game hunters.
I am sort of proud of WY F&G. A corporation would treat big game tags as a Cash Cow where would throttle back investment and reduce customer service and still ramp up prices knowing that the customer set is inevitably dwindling the next few decades so a revenue spike now will lead to a better overall return.
Teddy Roosevelt would not be happy. There is a long game here and is selfish to merely write off the push back as whining by ignorant, selfish $50K truck driving buffoons. Or not.
To your hogwash Treewalker I say BS! I don't know where you come up with all that garbage about declining numbers because every western state is selling more licenses than they ever have. The overall hunter applications for Wyoming in 2017 for all animals was in the double digits over those of 2016, so you are barking up the wrong tree with your incorrect comments. I'll ask you or anyone else that wants to answer this. When the G&F needs so many million dollars a year to operate where do you think they will be able to get it other than the people that hunt and fish? It was bad enough with just the $6 million dollars they were getting from the General Fund to supplement their budget. Now that has been taken away and even with these fee increases they are behind approximately $1 million dollars and will need additional funding to operate within 4 years and it sure as heck isn't going to come from the general public! Parts of the country might be booming right now, but it's not in Wyoming because of it's extreme energy dependency and that's exactly why the Legislature did what they did when they eliminated that General Fund money and it won't be coming back any time soon! Either pay to play or take up knitting is about what it comes down to, as the money to hunt is there for many people if they would just save a few bucks a week and not waste it on booze, cigarettes, etc.
"WY will have fewer applicants for elk in 5 years than today."
2017 PP purchased, 23,307
2016 PP purchased, 19,917
2015 PP purchased, 18,482
..
2013 PP purchased, 14,409
..
2011 PP purchased, 13,125
exactly why the fees will continue to rise, supply and demand is the American way. 15 years from now an elk tag could be $2,500.00 or more.
WB---Thanks for those figures that definitely contradict the great Treewalker prognostications of lesser elk hunters in the future, LOL!
Supply and demand?
Uncle Sam should not be in the business of capitalism. Get a better argument. There are many to choose from.
Granted federal and state governments do it all the time.
What if Wyoming decided those willing to pay $1000 a year for a driven s license would create more revenue than those willing to renew for $25 every few years? Justifiable?
Hey brunse; that post of yours is in the running for the dumbest on this thread!
You may as well drop out of every state if you will only be satisfied with the best tag in the state. You can have a nice hunt with 0-5 points and the points are cheap. The special tag is expensive though.
Made the mistake of not putting in the first 2 years they started doing preference points for elk. Now I'm 2 behind max and will never draw a top unit. I'll draw a good one but will never play the game again other than to maybe have enough points for a general tag. Could of puled the trigger for 4 years now on the unit we've been eyeing but have always had a better elk hunt lined up elsewhere. Now Eastmans has published our unit as a "blue chip" unit for the first time and we're probably screwed for many more years. Thanks Guy.
Which part is dumb?
Why should govt be in the money making business? (Supply demand price setting)
Ok my comparison is unfathomable, but so are many of our current govt policies.
