Will an ebike make hunting easier?
General Topic
Contributors to this thread:
eBike John 02-Feb-18
CCRider 02-Feb-18
Brotsky 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
Shaft2Long 02-Feb-18
CCRider 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
Pat Lefemine 02-Feb-18
CCRider 02-Feb-18
Jaquomo 02-Feb-18
Deertick 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
Olink 02-Feb-18
Pat Lefemine 02-Feb-18
Jaquomo 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
Bob H in NH 02-Feb-18
Jaquomo 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
Silverback 02-Feb-18
Deertick 02-Feb-18
Jaquomo 02-Feb-18
Rock 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
lawdy 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
Jaquomo 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
grubby 02-Feb-18
Jaquomo 02-Feb-18
BOWNUT 02-Feb-18
lawdy 02-Feb-18
eBike John 02-Feb-18
The last savage 02-Feb-18
txhunter58 02-Feb-18
SBH 02-Feb-18
eBike John 03-Feb-18
BULELK1 03-Feb-18
ground hunter 03-Feb-18
The last savage 03-Feb-18
Inshart 03-Feb-18
eBike John 03-Feb-18
eBike John 03-Feb-18
Inshart 03-Feb-18
JusPassin 03-Feb-18
txhunter58 03-Feb-18
Jaquomo 03-Feb-18
JusPassin 04-Feb-18
pa bowhunter 04-Feb-18
txhunter58 04-Feb-18
lewis 04-Feb-18
Jaquomo 04-Feb-18
Whip 04-Feb-18
JusPassin 04-Feb-18
Pat Lefemine 04-Feb-18
Whip 04-Feb-18
TheTone 04-Feb-18
Whip 04-Feb-18
Jaquomo 04-Feb-18
Jaquomo 04-Feb-18
Whip 04-Feb-18
Pat Lefemine 04-Feb-18
Whip 04-Feb-18
Wapitidung 04-Feb-18
Inshart 04-Feb-18
Whip 04-Feb-18
The last savage 04-Feb-18
TheTone 04-Feb-18
JusPassin 04-Feb-18
lewis 04-Feb-18
txhunter58 04-Feb-18
Scrappy 04-Feb-18
JusPassin 04-Feb-18
txhunter58 04-Feb-18
Paul@thefort 04-Feb-18
lewis 04-Feb-18
butcherboy 04-Feb-18
Jaquomo 04-Feb-18
Whip 04-Feb-18
Jaquomo 05-Feb-18
Quinn @work 05-Feb-18
Whip 05-Feb-18
Jaquomo 05-Feb-18
Whip 05-Feb-18
Whip 05-Feb-18
Ace 05-Feb-18
tobywon 05-Feb-18
Olink 05-Feb-18
Jaquomo 05-Feb-18
Jaquomo 05-Feb-18
eBike John 05-Feb-18
Bullhound 05-Feb-18
TD 05-Feb-18
Whip 05-Feb-18
APauls 05-Feb-18
APauls 05-Feb-18
Jaquomo 05-Feb-18
txhunter58 05-Feb-18
IdyllwildArcher 05-Feb-18
ohiohunter 05-Feb-18
lawdy 05-Feb-18
Olink 05-Feb-18
Jaquomo 05-Feb-18
HDE 05-Feb-18
Rut Nut 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
HDE 06-Feb-18
Rut Nut 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
Rut Nut 06-Feb-18
Ace 06-Feb-18
Bill Obeid 06-Feb-18
Rut Nut 06-Feb-18
txhunter58 06-Feb-18
Whip 06-Feb-18
HDE 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
Whip 06-Feb-18
txhunter58 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
txhunter58 06-Feb-18
Whip 06-Feb-18
txhunter58 06-Feb-18
HDE 06-Feb-18
cnelk 06-Feb-18
HDE 06-Feb-18
cnelk 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
HDE 06-Feb-18
The last savage 06-Feb-18
Whip 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
huntabsarokee 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
huntabsarokee 06-Feb-18
Whip 06-Feb-18
Jaquomo 06-Feb-18
HDE 06-Feb-18
Pat Lefemine 06-Feb-18
Ace 06-Feb-18
midwest 06-Feb-18
WV Mountaineer 06-Feb-18
Scar Finga 07-Feb-18
Newhunter1 07-Feb-18
Scar Finga 07-Feb-18
wkochevar 07-Feb-18
cnelk 07-Feb-18
Jaquomo 07-Feb-18
Newhunter1 07-Feb-18
Native Okie 07-Feb-18
eBike John 08-Feb-18
eBike John 08-Feb-18
BC173 08-Feb-18
grubby 08-Feb-18
cnelk 08-Feb-18
Newhunter1 08-Feb-18
Ollie 08-Feb-18
grubby 08-Feb-18
Newhunter1 08-Feb-18
grubby 08-Feb-18
ohiohunter 08-Feb-18
Jaquomo 08-Feb-18
Newhunter1 08-Feb-18
Jaquomo 08-Feb-18
Whocares 08-Feb-18
txhunter58 08-Feb-18
Newhunter1 08-Feb-18
txhunter58 08-Feb-18
TheTone 08-Feb-18
eBike John 09-Feb-18
huntabsarokee 09-Feb-18
Ollie 09-Feb-18
cnelk 09-Feb-18
eBike John 09-Feb-18
Jaquomo 09-Feb-18
Newhunter1 09-Feb-18
Newhunter1 11-Feb-18
Ollie 12-Feb-18
spyder24 12-Feb-18
Ironbow 12-Feb-18
Newhunter1 13-Feb-18
From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Morning Folks, My name is John and I'm a new sponsor here so just wanted to say hi to you all.. I run an online ebike store called eBikeGeneration.com so if any of you are curious or have questions on ebikes and the benefits while out hunting I'd be happy to discuss anything with you. I'm happy to be part of this very engaged forum so as a thank you I've created a discount so anybody from the Bowsite.com forums can get 10% off any ebike if they choose to buy one from eBike Generation. I'm not going to pretend it expires so 'buy now' or anything like that, the discount will run indefinitely. It's yours if you ever want or need it. The Discount Code is: bowsite Anyway, if you have any questions or comments I'd love to hear them... John

From: CCRider
02-Feb-18
Welcome John. This is great timing. I have been thinking more and more about an e-bike to replace my Mt bike for backcountry hunting but also for my Kansas lease for whitetails.

A question I have is, do you always have to pedal it or can it be used like a moped where you ride it? Also, if the charge runs out, can you still pedal it like a regular bike?

Sorry if these questions are basic, but I know very little about eBikes other than they look like a great option for hunting.

From: Brotsky
02-Feb-18
To tag on to CC's question, if I'm pedaling does it charge the battery?

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Hey CCRider, thanks for the welcome and the question. There are a few variations but the majority of ebikes have what's called the trifecta. So the option of pedal assist (so you pedal and the motor helps), then there's throttle (so no pedaling required) and lastly you can always pedal without engaging the motor and use it just like a regular bicycle. So yes, if the battery runs out you can just pedal along. If a few models the pedal assist option is not available, in those models it's either full throttle or pedaling.

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Hi Brotsky, No, pedaling won't recharge the battery. the battery needs plugging in to a socket to get recharged

From: Shaft2Long
02-Feb-18
How long does the battery last on rugged uphill roads?

From: CCRider
02-Feb-18
John, thank you. That is helpful. I have more questions. How long does it take to charge the battery? Can it be charged with a solar charger in the field?

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Hi Shaft2Long, there are many factors to consider, but if we consider an average bike battery around 750W, average persons weight 170 lbs, with not an excessive load on top. And using only throttle on rugged uphills somewhere between 15 to 18 miles. If you use pedal assist mode you could add 5 to 10 miles to that. it depends on many factors and bigger batteries perform better too

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
CCRider, Battery charge times vary between 4 to 6 hours to fully charge and you can expect to get around 25 miles on a full charge (flat road without pedaling). ebikes vary and battery size will dictate how long you can run it. the batteries commonly have a usb port for charging and if you have a solar charger with the right connection you can certainly use that, not sure how long it would take to charge compared to a regular house socket though

From: Pat Lefemine
02-Feb-18
I got to spend some time on the phone with John, he's a really good guy and I learned a lot talking with him. I am seriously considering buying an e-bike from him for deer hunting after he educated me on some misconceptions. It seems like a better alternative to an electric UTV for getting to my backcountry treestands. Plus, John's prices are far lower than I've seen anywhere else and that was before the Bowsite discount.

From: CCRider
02-Feb-18
Thanks, that's very helpful. I checked out your site and see Quietkat. I have heard good things about Rambo bikes too which may be a little less money. Any thoughts on Rambo bikes?

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-18
Welcome to the Bowsite! I just got one a month ago and absolutely love it. No, it won't make hunting "easier" but at almost 64 I can save my legs for humping mountains after I park the bike. I can climb up very steep stuff with ease. Yesterday I rode it around in 8" of fresh snow and it was like riding on a cloud. Everyone who rides mine starts laughing and starts shopping for one. Mine is rigged with a heavy duty rack, a bow-gun-rod case scabbard, tire liners and True Goo in the tubes.

As far as riding them on USFS closed roads and other places open to regular bicycles, the USFS has a policy declaring them as "motorized vehicles", which is in direct conflict with Federal Law H.R. 727 which specifically states that they are NOT "motorized vehicles". I've since done a lot of online research and lots of asking around, and can find no instance of anyone ever being cited by the USFS. People tell me they are just ignored by USFS people they encounter. I'm not worried about it, and will fight it in the event I am ticketed by the rare USFS LEO which I never, ever see.

From: Deertick
02-Feb-18
If I have an ATV, I can remove the keys to deter theft. How does it work with one of these? I'm assuming just a regular bike lock?

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Hey Jaquomo, Sounds like you are happy with yours! it is true that on USFS consider ebikes as motorized vehicles and the organisation PeopleForBikes are advocating for a revision on that point, recently they surveyed each state on their poilcies on ebikes and how they are classified and the majority of responses were simply "we haven't givn it much thought, we don't see many so it's not worth the hassle to go and change the policies just yet" I've not heard anyone getting ticketed, probably because they look just like regular bikes

From: Olink
02-Feb-18
Pat or John - I'd like to hear why an ebike would be a better alternative to an electric UTV (other than price). It seems lika a big disadvantage for an ebike would be hauling stands in or out, or getting game out.

From: Pat Lefemine
02-Feb-18
Olink, If I need to put up stands or drag out a deer I will use my gas quads. the only reason I considered an electric UTV was for quietly accessing my distant stands while hunting. Some are 1.5 mile hike to get to. Seems to me an e-bike would be perfect for that and about 10k less expensive.

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-18
Deertick, I can remove my battery with the flip of a handle and lock the bike to a tree with a serious cable, just like with my regular mountain bike. My vehicle bike rack locks the bike in and locks to the vehicle hitch receiver so nobody can steal it when it's on there. And ATV haters are less likely to vandalize it than an ATV back in somewhere.

Olink, you can hook a trailer to it and haul anything in-out that fits in it. There are several pretty substantial trailers available for them. Another advantage is getting there. A UTV requires a trailer. The e-bike fits in the back of a truck, I've seen them inside a SUV, on a bike carrier on the back of my camper bumper. Takes only 2 hours to full charge the battery with my little Honda 1000 generator. And is a hell of a lot of FUN! UTV costs a lot more, requires regular maintenance, and can only go where the path is wide enough. BTW, I hit 19 mph on my street without pedaling.

CO passed a state law last spring declaring e-bikes are NOT considered motorized vehicles, as well. HB17-1151.

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Rambo Bikes are good too. QuietKat are really good, Rambo too. Actually Rambo are releasing a 2018 catalogue in 2 weeks so I'll soon be offering the Rambo line too. Rambo are also well made. not much in terms of price between the 2.

From: Bob H in NH
02-Feb-18
If you watch HUSHIN at all, one of them recently used one of these to get back into the mountains quickly and quietly, worked great, till he hit something coming out and broke it :-) I can see them being great to save a long walk in to stands!

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-18
Mine is a Rambo. I bought it largely because of the big price reduction on the remaining 2017 models. But QuietKat is definitely good too.

John, can you discuss the advantages/disadvantages of mid-drive vs. rear drive? I get asked this all the time and really don't know.

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Jaquomo, in general you will work harder with a rear hub motor compared to mid drive where the motor sits in the middle between the pedals. people generally 'feel' the mid drive is a nicer ride, it feels nicer. front hub powered gives the sensation of being pulled along, while the rear hub pushes the bike from the back. If the bike with a rear hub AND a battery rack on the back the bike can be back heavy. Mid drive systems are known for being able to climb long steep hills because they can leverage the lower gears of the bike and keep their rpm’s in an efficient range without getting “bogged down” like a hub motor. This is a good feature if you ride in areas that have consistently long and steep climbs. Since the motor is at the cranks of the bike it provides for a low and centered weight distribution. If the battery is mounted in the center of the bike that further adds to great weight distribution which is good for the handling of the bike as well as making it easier to lift onto a car rack or carry up stairs.

From: Silverback
02-Feb-18
I'm interested in them too for the same reason that Pat mentioned. My concern that as more and more people buy them New York state will regulate or totally ban the use of them on Public land. New York is good at over regulation.

From: Deertick
02-Feb-18
You're in a base camp in the mountains for a week. What are the usual recharging options in that situation?

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-18
Little folding Solar charger that Rambo sells (in camo!), or the inverter on your truck, and real hunters have a quiet little Honda 1000 "lunchbox" generator in camp for this type of purpose. Or for running the margarita blender. ;-)

From: Rock
02-Feb-18
Lou, A minor correction or observation on your statement;

"My vehicle bike rack locks the bike in and locks to the vehicle hitch receiver so nobody can steal it when it's on there."

This really only keeps the honest person honest and not the motivated thief!!!!!!!!!

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Jaquomo, if you're bringing your margarita blender with you I suspect you're having way too much fun :-)

From: lawdy
02-Feb-18
I have a Brunton folding solar panel that runs our camper in Newfy. It measures 10" by 10" folded, and opens to about 2'by 4'. I also have a 18"by 18" panel my daughter's company is developing. She gave me a prototype to use, 500 watts. There is some crazy stuff coming. My panels keep two 12V batteries fully charged and we have adapters for all our electronics.

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Solar Panels will open up so many opportunities for every day use, and with the technology improving every year the future is bright

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-18

Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Jaquomo's embedded Photo
Boy Scout motto: Be Prepared!

Never know when you might come upon an attractive geologist in the backcountry collecting crystal samples in a bikini. Happened to me last summer - for real.

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
ha very cool. prepared indeed :-)

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Jaquomo, as an ebike user what would you suggest others consider when choosing?

From: grubby
02-Feb-18
I recently picked up a Rambo too..... all I know about it so far is that its a lot of fun!!

From: Jaquomo
02-Feb-18
Besides a blender attachment and a drink holder? Gosh, I don't know because I've only ever ridden this one. But I couldn't be happier with it. Be sure to include tire liners as the tires are sort of thin. I got a flat right away from running over some goat heads. Tire liners should come as part of the standard package.

I read some MTB forums and the hard core MTB snobs hate them, of course, comparing them to "motorcycles" and ATVs. They are upset that the USFS is doing some pilot programs to measure the impact (?) of allowing them on foot-bike-horse trails. This is laughable since I have to dodge MTB maniacs racing and bashing down some trails where I hike. The types of people who ride ebikes aren't going to behave that way. One idiot posted that they "shouldn't be considered recreation". I'd like to stomp his little padded spandex ass.

You could cut-paste posts from trad bow forums and substitute "ebike" for "compound" and it's the same people. Elitists are elitists, no matter what stripe. Until, of course, age and physical limitations prevent them from doing what they used to do when they were young hotshot snobs. Then it quietly becomes ok, with the excuse of "This allows me to keep ......"

From: BOWNUT
02-Feb-18
Can you cross a creek or a river with in reason? Say the middle of the tires.

From: lawdy
02-Feb-18
I'd like to stomp his little padded spandex ass. I love it. Dec

From: eBike John
02-Feb-18
Hey Bownut, the battery is water resistant and can come into contact but water so even excessive splashing wouldn't be an issue, but completely submerged is not recommended. if you must cross you could always slide the battery out and stick it in your bag and pedal across..

02-Feb-18
Ebike john,welcome to bow site ,,I used to race cross country and downhill,,I have 2 high end bikes that were around 5k between them,,I've been looking at the aftermarket Befang e motors,,,it think 750 watts,I'm thinking of putting one on one of my bikes,do you have any input on them??they have excellent review's,,,thx for any input..

From: txhunter58
02-Feb-18
CO passed a state law last spring declaring e-bikes are NOT considered motorized vehicles, as well. HB17-1151.

So I guess that means you are good to go on state land, but not on BLM or USFS?

From: SBH
02-Feb-18
Welcome to the BOWSITE! Good group here. Those sure look like they could make my life easier.....may be in the market to sell my 4 wheeler now!

From: eBike John
03-Feb-18
The Last Savage, yes Bafang are top notch, most ebike manufacturers use Bafang for their hub motors, they are the go to brand. I would suggest if you put a hub motor on a 'regular' bike just make sure the brakes can take the extra power. Since you used to race downhill, brakes are probably very good but could be something to think about..

From: BULELK1
03-Feb-18

BULELK1's Link
Welcome aboard John!

I am putting the final accessories with Customer Service for this Ebike.

Thanks for your input.

Good luck, Robb

PS--Nice Ride Lou!

03-Feb-18
I know a guy who bought a Quiet Kat, when they first came out, he rides it all over the western UP,,,,,,,, he loves it, to get back to spots for trout fishing, and hunting,,,,, he has also had conversation USFS, personnel, who never questioned him, in a wheel less area, they were more curious about the bike itself,,,, to be honest, I do not think anyone cares up here,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I think there is a shop in Marquette he got it from,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, any way they are cool,,,,,,

03-Feb-18
Yes John ,both have Hayes hydraulic disc brakes,,thanks for the input,,,

From: Inshart
03-Feb-18
John welcome, another question:

Is there some type of insurance for them (other than the obvious - home owners).

Also, what kind of warranty? Say for instance I'm riding and take a tumble (been known to happen to some on here) brake something serious on the bike, although it is my fault, what kind of warranty do they have?

Thanks, Bob

From: eBike John
03-Feb-18
Hi Bob,

Back in 2012, a company called Velosurance was launched in Florida and still appears to be expanding. In some cases, homeowner or renter’s insurance will not cover e-bikes for theft, damage, or liability because the bike has a motor. And usually auto insurance companies won’t offer ebike insurance because they are not required to be registered and riders do not need to be licensed. It’s part of what makes electric bikes appealing and economical but also tough to insure. Velosurance partnered with Markel Insurance to form a strategic alliance making electric bike insurance available across the US. coverage for crash or damage to frame and wheel set, accident or failure of frame or wheelset, total loss by theft, theft of spare parts, liability to others, road side assistance and replacement bike rental. Note that most of these insurance products only cover ebikes that adhere to US regulation, that being less than or equal to 750 watt motors and 20 mile per hour top speeds in throttle mode and up to 28 mph in pedal assist mode as a “speed pedelec”. Some of the policies start at just $100 a year which seems pretty good and $25K in liability can be as low as $40 to add on. When it comes to the warranty from the manufacturers, the majority offer a 1 year limited warranty that covers any issues due to manufacturing defects, not accidents or wear and tear so insurance is not a bad idea but first check if it can fall under the home owner’s or renter’s insurance.

From: eBike John
03-Feb-18
Hey Bob, in addition to my previous answer. After thinking about your question I did some research on line and I found this explanation in an ebike forum that could be helpful, this one guy found this solution: **“I got a quote from Velosurance which was approximately $240 a year. And then I called my insurance company. I spent a full hour on the phone with four missteps as they got me to the right department. But I was very glad I hung in there and they persisted with me, because I learned about an area of insurance called Inland Marine. The name seems way off base, but the agent told me that this is an area of insurance for things not normally covered in a homeowners policy…things like ebikes. (Once you know what to look for there’s a lot of information online about it. It started for businesses covering things in transit, but also works for individuals covering unusual items like expensive furs, jewelry and specialized equipment.) As an existing customer adding to my homeowners, acknowledging I did no racing or competitions, for full replacement no deductible on theft I got coverage for $83 a year. I’m happy to have the bike covered with the company that I’ve been very happy with and I was delighted at the price. So when you’re talking to your insurance company you might ask them about an inland marine policy and investigate how it fits into your overall insurance protection strategy.”**

From: Inshart
03-Feb-18
Good to know, thanks John.

From: JusPassin
03-Feb-18
Well Lord knows there is nothing the back country needs more than easier access. The more the better I always say! NOT

From: txhunter58
03-Feb-18
How old are you Juspassin?

The desire to get "out there" doesn't diminish when you turn 50 or 60. I turn 60 this month. You still can't take one of these into a wilderness area and where elk live on the really steep slopes, you can't take these bikes either, so you still have to get out and hunt. So head deep into a wilderness and you won't see one, but you will see horses, which I used last year.

From: Jaquomo
03-Feb-18
Juspassin, what brand of 4WD vehicle do you drive? Just wondering.

I'm nearly 64 and bowhunted 30 straight days last season, solo, on foot, in the backcountry. And you?

From: JusPassin
04-Feb-18
Some of you sound like the woman complaining to the park ranger that the trails in the wilderness area weren't handicapped accessible.

From: pa bowhunter
04-Feb-18
There is always "that one"

From: txhunter58
04-Feb-18
So you won't tell us how old you are?

So far, I can still hunt the steep stuff off trail and Jaq and I will find a way to get deeper in the woods than you do I would bet with or without an ebike. Last year for me, that was with horses to get us to the area, but we still had to pack an elk out on our backs for about 1 & 1/2 miles. You think an ebike has more impact than a horse?

We are only talking trails that already allow horses and bikes. You will never have a lot of guys who are just looking for an easy way to Hunt deep in the woods. Those guys will ride up a trail and sit by the trail or stay within a 1/4 mile. We are just tryin got find a tool to help us last a little longer because the fire is still there. You won't ever find anyone who will fight for limited access into wilderness areas more than me. And I don't want it to be legal to take ebikes off of designated trails. But to get me from point A to point B on a designated bike trail, I see nothing wrong with using a ebike.

From: lewis
04-Feb-18
It puzzles me that anyone can be be negative about this subject.What would create this mindset?Lewis

From: Jaquomo
04-Feb-18
Juspassin, what model of 4WD do you drive to get deeper into the backcountry? How old are you? Sure makes it easy for a lazy flatlander like you to elk hunt, doesn't it?

I don't see anyone complaining on here. I average 6-9 miles a day on foot, carrying a pack, every day whether I park at the end of a road, ride my mountain bike, ride my ATV, or park beside the highway. If this keeps me going hard into my 70s, then who in the hell are you to judge?

From: Whip
04-Feb-18
Personally, I get what JusPassin is getting at.

As a case in point, I have an area that I love to hunt that takes some work to get to. There is a hiking trail that we have used to pull a game cart in to haul in our camp. But it takes some work, and so far most people don't put the effort in to get there. We've been able to hunt it relatively unpressurred. It's far enough in to avoid day hunters, and lack of good drinking water and the need to haul water in keeps most hunters away. But it would be easily accessible with an ebike, even for a day hunt. As these things become more and more commonly used I have no doubt that it won't be long before more and more people take advantage of it and our little honey hole will see more pressure.

For the record, I am 63 years old. Elk hunting is a lot harder for me now than it used to be. I know there will come a day - maybe not that long from now, that getting in to my spot won't be doable any longer.

An ebike would sure make things easier for me, and would probably extend my days in there. I'd be a perfect candidate to use one. I wouldn't even need to worry about spike camping and hauling water in. I could set up a comfortable truck camp, complete with a generator to charge my battery, and with an easy half hour ride each morning be hunting the same country I am right now.

But I sure know that's is going to make it easier for everyone else as well. And my secret spot will never be the same because of it.

From: JusPassin
04-Feb-18
Whip, so glad someone "gets it", and for the record, I'm 68.

From: Pat Lefemine
04-Feb-18
I’m missing something here. The EBike is an advantage going up the dirt roads and clean trails in the backcountry. No argument there. But they aren’t going to add much advantage outside of that. Hard core hunters will still be able to leave the crowds behind and hump it to a distant canyon most guys won’t bother with? The canyons I hunted on my DIY hunts would have been inaccessible with any bike.

From: Whip
04-Feb-18
In response to the comments about using 4x4's and atv's I have no problem with those when they are used on trails /roads designated for their use. The delemia comes with using a bike with a motor on trails designated as non - motorized. There is a reason they are designated that way - to make access more difficult. Adding a motor to a bike completely changes the whole dynamic.

Restricting Amp power, top end speed, whether or not pedaling is required, etc, etc. is a slippery slope of endless arguments and technology advances. How would any limitations ever be measured and enforced? Next to impossible, so once they are allowed the door is wide open. These things are in their infancy and will be far more efficient and advanced 10 years from now.

From: TheTone
04-Feb-18
So do those with or planning to get ebikes view the ones with a throttle different than those that just have pedal assist?

From: Whip
04-Feb-18
Pat, no doubt there are places an ebike can't reach. I gave my example of one of my favorite spots where they easily can. They won't open up every spot, but they definitely would open up mine along with plenty of others.

Out west there are literally thousands of miles of old roads that have been closed off to motorized use. They provide great access to foot or horse travel, and even conventional bikes in some cases. But they still take a lot of effort that the majority of people aren't willing to expend. A three or four mile hike in relativity easy terrain will discourage the average day hunter. An Ebike makes the same trek a piece of cake. An ebike makes accessing those trails open to nearly anyone with far less effort and in much less time. That can only lead to many more people now able to access areas that previously was very difficult. It will certainly make it much harder in many areas to get away from the crowds. And for the way I prefer to hunt, that is a requirement.

I guess that means those of us who do like to get away will just have to work that much harder to find spots not affected by ebikes. They are often going to be god forsaken hell holes, but sure, spots like that are there. For me personally, unless I join the crowd, it might just push me out. Because I'm getting to the age where packing an elk out of a hell hole isn't as easy as it used to be. I search out and appreciate non - motorized areas with reasonable access. Ebikes will make many of those areas accessible to the masses.

From: Jaquomo
04-Feb-18
Whip, substitute "compound bows" in your post and we heard the exact same arguments back in the early '70s. Juspassin, good to know that you only hunt from paved roads in a 2WD passenger car.

Back in the 50s, the guys who started using Willys Jeeps after the war "ruined" it for the guys still hunting out of Studebakers. They could get back in further than the station wagon guys by using new technology.

WRT assist bikes, the Federal Government and some states (CO) have defined what is considered "motorized" by law. My Rambo assist bike is NOT a motorized vehicle. Saying it is is the same as trad guys insisting a compound is not a "bow". There is no "slippery slope" because the law is ahead of the technology in this case.

From: Jaquomo
04-Feb-18
If e-bikes were relabeled as "compound bikes" there wouldn't be a problem, right?

I ride my conventional mountain bike right past other guys who are toiling along on foot on those closed roads you mention. I start hunting far beyond where they go. Is that cheating if I zoom past you?

From: Whip
04-Feb-18
Nope, not cheating at all on a conventional bike. Non-motorized on a non-motorized trail. Add an electric motor to it and I have a different answer. Adding a motor to a bike opens those trails up to a lot more people that would never attempt pedaling a conventional bike - it's simple as that.

You will have far less competition at the end of your road if you pedal your conventional bike in than you will if Ebikes are also allowed. Pedal away my friend, right on past me. I'm even thinking about trying it with a conventional mountain bike myself. But I know that if ebikes are allowed to use the same trail I am not as likely to be alone when I get there.

From: Pat Lefemine
04-Feb-18
If your remote spot become accessible to people now using EBikes, then drive an EBike as far as you can and then hike farther than the crowds from there. What am I still missing?

From: Whip
04-Feb-18
Because if I go very much further I will start heading out on another trail coming in from another direction from a different motorized road. I have already run into hunters a couple of times that come in from that way. It's a very common situation in many places I've been in the west.

From: Wapitidung
04-Feb-18
Think I'll stick with the mountain bike till I get to be an old guy.

From: Inshart
04-Feb-18
I WANT A 2 WHEEL DRIVE EBIKE! .... Wouldn't that be bitch'n. LOL

From: Whip
04-Feb-18
Just meet a guy a few days ago on a mountain bike trail riding exactly that Inshart. Can't say what the advantages are with 2x2 though. I don't really know.

04-Feb-18
Bob I've actually seen 2 wheel drive e bikes in a mag once,,as I recall they were prototypes,,rear hub,front hub drive's,,tester said they'd go about anywhere,,,but are batterys fast,,,I think is was before the lithium battery revolution,,

From: TheTone
04-Feb-18
ebike John, the quiet kat and rogue ridge bikes appear to be identical to me. Are the companies related or are both companies just purchases some third party bike an putting their branding on them?

From: JusPassin
04-Feb-18
https://www.rokon.com/ Here fellas, you really can go anywhere.

From: lewis
04-Feb-18
Finally a question Lewis

From: txhunter58
04-Feb-18
Apples and oranges Juspassin. That is definitely motorized and makes lots of noise. There is no question that "bike" would be illegal on the trails we are discussing.

Actually I think I will just start using a Jetpack. Easy in/ Easy out and nice on the back and knees!

From: Scrappy
04-Feb-18
For the guys, feds, and states saying a mountain bike that has a MOTOR on it is a non-motorized vehicle must all be smoking some wacky weed. A motorized vehicle is defined as a vehicle with a motor right or am I missing something here.

From: JusPassin
04-Feb-18
Exactly Scrappy, a motor is a motor, or at least it used to be.

From: txhunter58
04-Feb-18
A motorized vehicle is whatever the law says it is and in this case a federal law specifically says any electric bike at 750w or less is considered nonmotorized. Yes they have a motor. Absolutely. But legally it can do anything a pedal bike is allowed to.

From: Paul@thefort
04-Feb-18
I want my elk hunts to be Hard, not easy. If one can ride in, that means others can follow.

From: lewis
04-Feb-18
I quit makes no sense for hunters to argue about this I’m 71 by the way Lewis

From: butcherboy
04-Feb-18
I would really like one just to ride all the logging roads quickly and quietly. Saving my legs for the actual hunt. For those who say it will give more access into "your" honey hole. Do you really actually think it is "your" spot and no one else knows about it or hasn't already been there? Just because you don't see anyone doesn't mean they aren't there. They could easily walk in on another trail, behind you, or in front of you. Camp at a different spot and hunt quietly, shoot an elk/deer, and get out without you even knowing they were there. I would rather see e bikes on mountain bike trails or logging roads than atv's where they shouldn't be. Yes, I have an atv and use it where it is allowed on designated roads or trails.

From: Jaquomo
04-Feb-18
It's a "pedal assist". Nothing happens unless you pedal. You can't just jump on it, turn it on, and it takes off by itself.

For those who have preconceived ideas, I'd suggest you go to a bike shop and try one before you start making judgments. Funny how some who dis DIY hunting access by pedaling an assist-bike over rough terrain wouldn't think twice about hiring a packer to take them and their camp in and/or haul them and their their elk out.

Some of my best elk spots are off of heavily used ATV trails. Rarely encounter another hunter, and the elk don't seem to mind. Where I find too much competition is where guys hike way back in to get away from the "competition". I'd submit that high tech backpack hunting technology has a FAR greater impact on backcountry hunting pressure than assist-bikes ever will.

From: Whip
04-Feb-18
I have test ridden a couple. They are truly amazing majors and a blast to ride. But here is what the OP had to say about them. He seems pretty knowledgeable about them so I'll take his word on it. "Hey CCRider, thanks for the welcome and the question. There are a few variations but the majority of ebikes have what's called the trifecta. So the option of pedal assist (so you pedal and the motor helps), then there's throttle (so no pedaling required) and lastly you can always pedal without engaging the motor and use it just like a regular bicycle. So yes, if the battery runs out you can just pedal along. If a few models the pedal assist option is not available, in those models it's either full throttle or pedaling."

No pedaling required.

Pretty hard to argue that ebikes won't open up lots of areas to people who otherwise wouldn't expend the effort to get there without them. That much is a given. Also a given is that ebikes will continue to get better and more efficient in the years to come.

I know I won't change your mind on their use. But I won't be convinced that they will never have an impact on areas that I currently hunt. So I guess we can just agree to disagree.

From: Jaquomo
05-Feb-18
Pretty hard to argue that horses and outfitters doing packing and drop camps haven't opened up "lots of areas to people who otherwise wouldn't expend the effort to get there without them." Some folks posting negatively about assist-bikes on these forums pay for the same labor-saving services, which is laughable.

Same with 4WD trucks, SUVs, technologically advanced superlight backpack hunting gear, and even conventional 21 speed mountain bikes.

Each of those elements have had major cumulative impacts on the areas I've been hunting for elk since the early '70s. They've also brought people into bowhunting for elk who otherwise wouldn't have done it. Nonresidents, especially, who have overrun my best hunting spots without using pedal-assist bikes. Now you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a platoon of Sitka Warriors miles into the backcountry. I rarely hunt wilderness because it's too crowded.

If assist bikes allow aging boomers to continue to reach places to hunt DIY effectively as they grow older, with virtually no impact on the trails or environment, I'm all for it whether I choose to use one or not.

So what is your point, exactly? If you're running into other hunters and feel crowded, assist-bikes aren't your problem. You need to find different spots to hunt. Maybe closer to ATV trails where hunting pressure is lighter?

From: Quinn @work
05-Feb-18
The further guys can ride their bikes into the woods and join the bivy sitka. kuiu guys miles from any road the better by me. Just means less people killing elk within 1 mile of the road that everyone is driving by to be further packed in than everyone else. I love the misconception that you have to get 10 miles in to kill an elk.

With that said I feel these bikes will be a tool for getting in closed FS roads as they continue to close more and more access on perfectly maintained FS roads.

From: Whip
05-Feb-18
I didn't say that horses, conventional bikes, better backpacks, etc. haven't helped hunters access the backcountry. Of course they do. It's just that not everyone goes through the trouble to use those things and that limits access. I like it that way.

They all have one thing in common though. They don't have motors.

An ebike has a motor. Non - motorized trails are for things without motors. Not that hard to figure out if you put your mind too it.

I'm out.

From: Jaquomo
05-Feb-18
Yep, I did put my mind to it and figured it out, as did a majority of U.S. Congress, most of whom are lawyers. Thanks for the suggestion.

From federal law H.R.727: "A low speed electric bicycle (as defined in section 38B) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102(6) of title 49, United States Code.

Not sure how much clearer it needs to be. Not everyone will go to the trouble to buy and use an assist bike, but visit any trailhead parking lot during hunting season and it's very evident how many are going to the trouble to use the other items you mention to make access "easier".

From: Whip
05-Feb-18
I said I was out. I lied. HR727 talks about ebikes being regulated for consumer product safety purposes. Nowhere does it address their use on non - motorized designated trails. Here's a link to the law you cite. https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/house-bill/727/text

Here is a copy of a letter from the Forest Service in 2016 to all of its regional foresters. http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/e-bikes/1138125d1495286142-us-forest-service-official-stance-e-bikes-trails-ebike01.jpg

It's clear they don't agree with your interpretation of the law and I hope Bowsiters don't take your word for it on what is legal to use on forest trails.

Good luck in court defending your citation from the forest service.

From: Whip
05-Feb-18
There was a second page to the Forest Service letter that didn't come through on the link I provided. Here is the second page to it : http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/e-bikes/1138126d1495286152-us-forest-service-official-stance-e-bikes-trails-ebike02.jpg

Anyone thinking about using an ebike on non - motorized trails really need to check into it for themselves. Don't base your purchase decision on what you read here. Contact the forest service or appropriate land management agency for the area you plan to ride. Get a copy of the motor vehicle use map for the area. It all seems pretty clear to me for the areas I go. You make your own call.

From: Ace
05-Feb-18
Sheesh, the typical Bowsite squabble! A couple of guys don't like it because it interferes with how and where THEY hunt, so nobody should have one.

I'll tell you what pisses me off: It's the guys who kill more and bigger game than I do because they are better hunters than I am. I mean how fair is that? I buy my license, I show up, I am as entitled to kill a big bull or a big buck as the next guy. Why is it fair for guys who shoot better than I do, or are better woodsmen, or who work harder than me, or are in better shape to have all the success? Where is my participation trophy?

From: tobywon
05-Feb-18
Where can I mount my "airbow"...lol

Seriously, they seem pretty cool and would love to try one out some day. I have places where it would work great, but others where it is so rocky and steep with blow downs that it wouldn't.

Do some states require them to be registered? I am required to register my canoe if I use an electric motor on it. Been pulled over on the water as well to check my registration.

From: Olink
05-Feb-18
Whip - I'm glad to see that someone is able to comprehend the purpose of HR727 and how it has no bearing to where an ebike can and cannot be used.

From: Jaquomo
05-Feb-18
Whip, you are correct that the USFS has arbitrarily defined assist bikes as "motorized", even though there is no federal law or ruling they can cite that defines them as such. The only federal (and state) laws on the books define them the other way. 15 U.S.C 2051 was the amended Act used for the definition because there is no other federal documentation that defines what is motorized and what is not. USFS policy is simply a bureaucratic policy, similar to if a bureaucrat decided compound bows weren't really "bows" and prohibited their use on USFS during archery seasons.

Since that memo was issued, the USFS has reconsidered in the past year and began pilot programs to allow assist bikes on some non-motorized trails. Same with some regional areas in CO after the CO state law was passed. The lobbying group, PeopleForBikes, is working hard to overturn the misperception that these types of bikes have any more impact than conventional mountain bikes. When I was 30 I could go anywhere on today's mountain bikes that I now can on one of these at 64. USFS will change their policy, just a matter of time. It was a knee-jerk reaction until they could sort it out. No one can find an incidence of anyone being cited for it - like the also unenforced 14 day camping rule. That's a rule the USFS LEO's also blatantly ignore.

Whip, I get it if you disagree because of an arbitrary USFS travel rule issued in D.C.. But to try to use this as some sort of fear-mongering about possibly ruining hunting is simply setting up a straw man. ATVs didn't ruin any of my spots, but high tech backpacking gear and the internet sure wrecked some of them.

From: Jaquomo
05-Feb-18
Olink, this is from the House of Representatives summary of the Bill, where it defines the intent.

" The bill removes low- speed electric bicycles from the definition of ``motor vehicle'' within the jurisdiction of the Department of Transportation, where such bicycles are required to be regulated in the same manner as motorcycles. The bill then amends the Consumer Product Safety Act to transfer jurisdiction over low-speed electric bicycles to the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), where those bicycles would be regulated similarly to human-powered bicycles."

Note the specific use of the word "regulated" and the distinction between "motorcycles" and "human powered bicycles". The intent is unambiguous. They were moved under the CPSC because they aren't "motorized vehicles", and that's the only place where they fit.

I'm out, this is stupid. I promise I won't ruin anyone's hunting spot, but I may kill your bull and you'll see me packing it out.

From: eBike John
05-Feb-18
TheTone, Before you mentioned Rogue Ridge as a similar product to QuietKat I had never heard fo them so I done some research then got them on the phone. The frames are very similar in design but the similarities seem to stop there, the use didn't components and and different batteries, Rogue Ridge actually have a more powerful battery. They are new, just opened their doors in November so they are still building out their product line, I spoke to the CEO about selling his brand on my store and he seemed keen, once they are done building out their website and adding their products.

From: Bullhound
05-Feb-18
Interesting. I have a few places that one of these things would work real well. I don't know that I'd buy one, but would be cool to have. I'll probably continue to hike in to those places, while whining on the way out cuz my dead ass is tired. Probably be asking myself why I didn't buy one of these.

From: TD
05-Feb-18
Ahhhhh..... the ebike is the crossbow of the trad bikers.........

"Git off my lawn!"

From: Whip
05-Feb-18
I completely understand what PeopleForBikes is and what they are trying to do. Is an industry lobbying group that would like nothing more than to expand the market for a new wave of highly profitable products to sell.

Access to more trails means more people who want to buy $3,500 bike, which means higher sales, which means more dollars in the pockets of the industry people who support and make up the group. I get it. It's just business. It's the American way.

I for one hope they don't succeed in opening up all non - motorized trails to bicycles with motors. As I mentioned before, I'm 63 now and I know the day will come, likely sooner than later, when my body will no longer allow me to cut the mustard and hunt the difficult places that I love so much. When that day does come I hope I can accept it gracefully and leave those special places to those that still can.

From: APauls
05-Feb-18
Can I charge my electric rangefinding bowsight on it?

lol I was just joking. They seem cool. Reading this thread is interesting. You can't fight change. Change comes, you simply need to adapt. Sure I wish I had the hunting my parents generation had, and that moose lived all over my province because the rifle hunting card carrying army couldn't reach them. But guess what, it's over. Need to adapt and keep hunting. If ebikes allow people to go further, buy one and go further yet.

Here's another question: If ebikes allow the avg guy to go further, doesn't that just take the avg guy further? So all it does is spread people out. Thin out the hunting pressure everywhere. The super hardcore will always go average plus some, the average will do the average, and the lazy will go the lazy route. And you'll have smart, adaptable hunters sprinkled all throughout the spectrum. Maybe it will just spread out the pressure and make the hunting better for everyone?

It doesn't make too much sense to be worried about a specific honey hole, because if people knew about it, they'd find a way to get there. If they don't get there, it's because they don't know about it. If they don't know about it, they won't buy an ebike to help them reach it. What you're worried about is the masses suddenly adopting the ebike, and people stumbling upon your "honey hole." In reality what % of people will buy the ebike? How many people enjoy sitting on a bike seat in general? How many people will spend the money on them? If it's guys who are really serious about their elk hunting, you are already in competition with them anyways, cause they will find a way. If it's the avg dude, he doesn't spend serious money for a very limited competitive advantage. Summary? I wouldn't worry about it.

From: APauls
05-Feb-18
As to comparison's made, I am worried about rifle hunters picking up crossbows and airguns and taking part in archery draws that used to be my way of drawing more tags if they are to count as "archery." But that's my own selfish reasons.

From: Jaquomo
05-Feb-18
Good for you, Whip. One less Wisconsin flatlander stumbling around in "my" mountains. Your self-righteous nobility brings a little tear to the eye!!

From: txhunter58
05-Feb-18
Whip, I understand your point of view, and you have just as valid reasons for feeling the way you do as those of us who look at the coin from the other side. I really feel there is no right or wrong side of this, just opinion and legal precedent, or lack thereof. It will eventually get sorted out in the courts. As stated, I come down on the side of favoring the use of these bikes if it is determined to be legal, but you have just as much right to fight against their use. Good hunting

05-Feb-18
Electric bike: $2500-$5000.

Packer with horses to get your elk out: $300-500.

From: ohiohunter
05-Feb-18
Leaving your noisy a$$ atv at home........ PRICELESS

From: lawdy
05-Feb-18
Dead issue up here on fed land. No bikes are allowed, pedal or electric. We ride anyways. The fed warden threatens but so far no one has been charged. I was stopped riding my MB scouting for deer by the state warden. He asked me if I saw anything and I said, "you got me." He asked for what and I said I was riding a bike. He said, "@$%& the feds, have a good time." "Those bastards ride atv's and pickups all over these roads, you are human powered." We shot the bull and I continued on my way to check out a cut for deer sign.

From: Olink
05-Feb-18
" The bill removes low- speed electric bicycles from the definition of ``motor vehicle'' within the jurisdiction of the Department of Transportation, where such bicycles are required to be regulated in the same manner as motorcycles. The bill then amends the Consumer Product Safety Act to transfer jurisdiction over low-speed electric bicycles to the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), where those bicycles would be regulated similarly to human-powered bicycles."

Note the specific use of the word "regulated" and the distinction between "motorcycles" and "human powered bicycles". The intent is unambiguous. They were moved under the CPSC because they aren't "motorized vehicles", and that's the only place where they fit.

Thanks for the confirmation of the intent of the bill. Ebikes fall under the jurisdiction of the Consumer Product Safety Commission. This means that the CPSC can define the specs and safety features required for eBikes. But the CPSC has absolutely no say as to where eBikes can be used and where they cannot be used.

From: Jaquomo
05-Feb-18
Correct, Olink. That's the sticky wicket. They fall under CPSC AFTER being declared not motorized. Otherwise they would be regulated under DOT. They weren't declared non-motorized by the CPSC. They were declared non-motorized by Congress. That's the big distinction.

If an agency allows pedal bikes but declares something which has been federally categorized as "non-motorized" as "motorized" and prohibits them on that basis alone, as the USFS has done, then there may a problem if it gets to court. If they ban all two wheel non-motorized bikes, not a problem.

Now, if they follow federal guidelines and declare ebikes over 750 and 1 watt to be "motorized" and therefore prohibited, then they are consistent with the law.

USFS can make whatever rules they want. That's within their jurisdiction. They can ignore those rules, like they do with grazing and camping rules. Where I live there are two major illegal ATV trails leading into the NF that get hundreds of ATVs traveling past the signs and over the USFS berms every summer and fall. The USFS LEOs know all about them and choose to look the other way. The fact that no one appears to have been cited for ebikes, and that USFS is now in year 2 of pilot programs to selectively allow them, seems to indicate that perhaps they tried to get ahead of something they didn't understand. That, or its a super-low priority.

We may find out, but probably not. My attorney girlfriend would love to challenge it. But I never see the two USFS gals anywhere besides driving roads past camps that are in violation of the 14 day camping rule. Reporting ATVs on closed roads may get a call-back in a week, or not.

BTW, I used to feel the same way as you until I started digging into it and talked with numerous people who have encountered USFS rangers while riding on closed roads and MTB trails. The only citation I can find was in Summit County CO for violating a county rule, and that one was dismissed.

From: HDE
05-Feb-18
I would use one in a heartbeat where allowed.

From: Rut Nut
06-Feb-18
IMHO, we have too many lawyers these days trying to find loopholes. No common sense anymore. An e-bike has a motor. How can it be NON-motorized?! Pretty black and white if you ask me.

I sympathize with older hunters and am not a Spring Chicken myself. But RULES are RULES.

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
What "law"? USFS TMR isn't "law". Only elected officials can make law and they have passed laws declared Class 1 and 2 as "not motorized" at the state and federal level if you have to pedal to make them go.

From: HDE
06-Feb-18
Yes, Fed and Heritage (USFS) lands have a management plan, not a legislative plan. LE on these lands enforce the laws passed through legislation.

From: Rut Nut
06-Feb-18

Rut Nut's embedded Photo
Rut Nut's embedded Photo
OK Jaq- call it what you will. Technically it may not be a "law", but apparently according to this sign, it IS a RULE! ;-)

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
"A low speed electric bicycle SHALL NOT be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102 of title 49, United States Code". Passed by the 107th Congress and signed into law by the president.

Call it what you will, but a court needs to sort this out. Not going to be settled on the Bowsite. Hopefully this will be the summer the USFS either comes to their senses or are challenged over this incongruous rule.

From: Rut Nut
06-Feb-18
If there were not so many people trying to bend the rules, we wouldn't need as many lawyers! ;-)

From: Ace
06-Feb-18
Let's keep in mind the INTENT of the "law/rule". I believe that it's to prevent damage to the wilderness, NOT to limit access. Since it's pretty clear that an eBike is less harmful, than say horses, I think it's likely that the rulings will eventually go towards allowing them.

From: Bill Obeid
06-Feb-18
I don’t see the harm. You still have to pedal the damn thing..... it’s just that the motor is so small it can’t propel the bike without human assistance....so it wasn’t deemed a motorized vehicle.It’s noiseless , that’s a plus. I’m surprising myself a little..... usually would be against....... but I don’t see the harm . I don’t see it harming the environment or anything else for that matter

From: Rut Nut
06-Feb-18
Give it a few years Bill! Those "little" MOTORS will be hauling people all over the place. Just saw on the news last night they tested a drone that will carry a human. Technology is advancing faster every day.

I guess I am just old-school and rely too much on my common sense. If it has a motor and assists in getting you from one place to another then it seems to me it IS a motorized vehicle!

From: txhunter58
06-Feb-18
So the real question is are the rules in place to limit access or preserve the environment / trails. Obviously in wilderness areas it is to limit access and preserve. Other trails/areas may be a mixed bag of intentions. You against these bikes obviously want the rules to limit access but from the USFS point of view I think it is primarily to preserve the trails and quiet. Time will tell

From: Whip
06-Feb-18
You've got it Rut Nut. The law is the law. The rules as they stand now say that Ebikes are not allowed on non - motorized trails on federal lands per forest service rules and regulations. Contact your regional forest service office if you don't believe me. If someone wants those rules changed to allow ebikes access that is within their right. Lobby, write letters, whatever you want to do, I can respect that even if we may not agree. But until the rules are changed they should be followed and abided by.

Trying to hold one self above the law by citing an inapplicable rule that has nothing to do with non - motorized trails doesn't excuse breaking the law.

Neither does the fact that federal LEO's are woefully understaffed and you are not likely to be caught justify breaking the law. Violators are violators whether you get caught or not. Same goes for those operating atv's illegally or those violating the 14 day stay limit on federal land. I have no respect for any of that and can only hope they get their day in court eventually.

If the law is ever changed I'll just have to adjust to it. But in the meantime it's going to tick me off if I see someoe violating existing law, the same as if I see them violate a hunting rule or regulation. Maybe law enforcement won't have time to follow up, but you can be certain I'll report it.

From: HDE
06-Feb-18
Just as an FYI - a treestand or pop up ground blind cannot stay at one location for over 14 days in USFS boundaries per USFS rules. This means you can't pre-hang or set up weeks prior to a hunt to "claim" your spot.

Hope the "Johnny Rangers" police themselves and pull a stand or blind midway through a hunt...

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
Whip, I keep laughing because you've got it backward. HR 727 is the LAW. USFS TMR is a RULE which appears to disregard the federal law. So you must be ticked off at the USFS for their RULE that conflicts with the LAW... LOL!!

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
BTW, I used to be the head ranger for a big mountain park system. If that were today and I encountered someone respectfully riding a pedal assist bike on an established trail open to bicycles, I wouldn't write a citation. I would discuss the rule vs the law, advise them that it is a gray area and to ensure they stay on designated trails and be respectful of other trail users..

The last thing I would want is to be THE ranger whose citation was tossed by a judge who sides with federal law definition vs. an unlawful arbitrary definition made by an Obama appointed bureacrat. To your points, there is no federal law that says camping for more than 14 days is permitted, or that ATVs can go off-trail.

From: Whip
06-Feb-18
All I can say is good luck in court with your interpretation.

The federal law you keep citing has nothing to do with non - motorized trail use and nothing what so ever to do with the ability of the forest service to implement and enforce rules on those trails.

Again, good luck.

From: txhunter58
06-Feb-18
Another thing I thought is this: "Be careful what you wish for". We could see a hoard of non-hunters invading the backwoods with these ebikes increasing human disturbance in those areas. Because the bike companies aren't going to get rich off just hunters buying these things. I realize it is a double edge sword.

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
It's not my interpretation, Whip. Its the interpretation of assist-bike riding attorneys who've studied the law, the context, and the intent. They don't believe the USFS rule will hold up in court. I didn't just pull all this out of my bike seat. USFS arbitrary rules have been overturned by courts on many occasions when they conflict with law, and the USFS is forced to revise their rules. That will happen with this one when/if it is ever challenged.

From: txhunter58
06-Feb-18
Of course the attorneys of the assist bike lobby will "believe" that they can prevail and it may very well be they are on solid legal footing, but I don't believe it because they say so. They are paid to "believe" their side of the argument. Not something I trust to be true, just hope so. Certainly remains to be seen in court.

From: Whip
06-Feb-18
I don't doubt for a minute that there are industry people who hope to profit from these things that are lining the pockets of attorneys and lobbyists to get what they want. Sad sign of our times. But it's not the hunters interest that is motivating them.

From: txhunter58
06-Feb-18
".....lining the pockets of attorneys and lobbyists to get what they want. Sad sign of our times"

When has it ever been different?? Not in my lifetime

TERM LIMITS!!!! Only way we will ever stop that kind of thing

From: HDE
06-Feb-18
The text of HR 727 allows any 'low-speed electric bicycle' fully operable by pedals, an electric motor of less than 750 watts with a max speed on a paved level surface ridden by a skinny guy of less than 20 mph is exempt from the definition of a motor vehicle as defined by section 30102 (6) of title 49 of the United States Code.

Jaquomo is absolutely correct. You can ride an ebike on a trail (or road) designated for mbikes, horses, foot traffic, and if necessary, crawling.

The USFS, BLM, or any state cannot enforce a rule they impose as they are all subservient to federal law.

If the ebike is 1000 watts, that is an entirely different story...

From: cnelk
06-Feb-18
Next summer I think I’ll get me an ebike, some marijuana, go set up my camp for longer than 2 weeks in the NF, ride non-motorized roads while stoned and see what happens :)

From: HDE
06-Feb-18
Well, I know of a guy who can certainly set you up with pot...

From: cnelk
06-Feb-18
Know a guy? Hell I can buy it on the way home from work at a dispensary

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
I'll loan you my ebike!

From: HDE
06-Feb-18
Well, you're all set then except for the ebike.

06-Feb-18
Cnelk I'm coming by for a bong hit...maybe it will expand my mind...into a different drainage....Haaaa can't wait..

From: Whip
06-Feb-18
You got my curiosity up so I checked out your PeopleForBikes group website. It was interesting to say the least.

Here is their take on ebikes legality on federal land, copied and pasted directly from their website. :

NOTE FOR ELECTRIC MOUNTAIN BIKE RIDERS: This map represents how e-bikes are interpreted in each state’s vehicle code, and where e-bikes are allowed to go on the road, bike lanes, bike paths, or other paved or hard-surface bicycle infrastructure. The vehicle code does not apply to electric mountain bike access on motorized and non-motorized trails typically used for hiking, biking, and other singletrack or doubletrack trail experiences. eMTB access on singletrack is different than access to paved and soft surface bike lanes and bike paths; eMTBs are not allowed everywhere traditional mountain bikes are; and on federal, state, county and local trails, eMTB access varies significantly. Always consult with your local land manager for access questions.

I also used their link for some of the individual state regulations. I didn't check all 50, but of the ones I did this is what they say regarding whether ebikes are considered motorized for federal purposes.

» FEDERAL: On federal lands, eMTBs are considered motorized vehicles and have access to motorized trails. Contact the US Forest Service Rocky Mountain Regional Ofce or the BLM Colorado State Ofce for more information.

It sure doesn't look like the group you are quoting so freely thinks that ebikes are non-motorized. Their stance on it actually backs up exactly what I've been saying all along.

Huh. Who woulda guessed.....

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
Heck, you can even get drunk and shoot guns at beer bottles in a campground and keep doing it even after LEOs warned you to stop, and then have a bullet ricochet and hit a lady in the leg and nothing will happen to you because nobody got your truck license number, like those guys up on the Manhatten road last summer. But if they'd been riding e-bikes, they would REALLY be in trouble!

06-Feb-18
I did contact the FS person in northern Colorado and actually sent her a link to this thread because before I buy and use would like more info. The response was the FS defines motor vehicles as any vehicle which is self propelled and only excludes trains and wheelchairs. Think it was Title 36 CFR Chapter 212. So the FS which is under the Dept of Ag believes it is against the law to operate on a trail closed to motorized vehicles. Maybe you need to take in a train.

It does sound like from our communication that if you remove the battery and therefore it is not self propelled you would be OK. For me that is doable.

I did look at a Trek e bike today. Sales guy wanted me to take it for a ride but at $3500 I didn't want to.

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
Good, perhaps they will start enforcing the 14 day camping rule up on Green Ridge during hunting season. I hate having to set up camp two weeks before bow season to get a camping spot when big camps are there for 6 weeks at a time and hog the available spots. Lenore, if you're reading this, I won't test the e-bike rule in your District. You and your team have always been fair in all the contacts I've had. Hopefully the ebike rule will be clarified with a reasonable compromise after the pilot programs are completed.

Whip, I think you have some problems.

06-Feb-18
I actually mentioned the 14 day camping rule as well. Sounds like if you report it they will enforce it. I get the impression with the large amount of land they have to cover it probably doesn't get a high priority.

From: Whip
06-Feb-18
"Whip, I think you have some problems."

I'll agree with you there. Sometimes I can get like a dog with a bone. ;)

From: Jaquomo
06-Feb-18
Interesting - I just turned on the switch on my bike, got on it, and nothing happened. It didn't propel itself anywhere, even after I tried to push-start it. Only after I pedaled for a ways did the pedaling get a little easier. When I stopped pedaling it coasted to a stop. Hmmmmm...

From: HDE
06-Feb-18
"PeopleForBikes group website. It was interesting to say the least. Here is their take on ebikes legality on federal land, copied and pasted directly from their website. :..."

Sounds like they need to read HR 727. It's easy, just need to Google it, just make sure the link selected is a .gov webpage. It explicitly reads states cannot supersede the bill, signed into law during the W. Bush years.

As long as you meet the requirements outlined in the law, nothing can ultimately come of it. USFS under the Dept of Ag is still subject to federal law, even though they are heritage lands and not public. They can't pick and choose what laws to follow/enforce. Otherwise they do not have the authority to have LE Rangers carrying sidearms and handcuffs. If they did to enforce their own "sovereign" rules, then a Gestapo would exist and federal law would become guidelines.

From: Pat Lefemine
06-Feb-18
You guys are giving everyone a headache. We get it, lets move on.

From: Ace
06-Feb-18
I was kinda enjoying the back and forth. Guess we should talk about Crossbows now, High Fence hunts, or mechanical broad heads.

From: midwest
06-Feb-18
Welcome to Bowsite, John! lol

06-Feb-18
"No one can find an incidence of anyone being cited for it - like the also unenforced 14 day camping rule. "

Lou, I rarely say you are wrong. But, you are wrong on this one. If you want to see a guy that's been cited for the 14 day camping rule, send me your cell number. I'll text you my picture. Commie son of a guns wrote me one. :^)

Whip, please respect me. I got snowed in and couldn't pull my camper out. Came back three weeks later after the snow melted and the usfs had pulled it out for me. Cost me $540. :^)

From: Scar Finga
07-Feb-18
T

From: Newhunter1
07-Feb-18
I've thought long and hard before posting on this...let me give you some background info on me and why I bought what I bought. After highschool, I went into the Marines and served 4 years in the infantry...0311. The saw was my weapon and in Desert Storm/Shield I carried well over 200 lbs of gear on my pack and LBE....not to mention I carried into combat and the months leading up to it 1000 rounds. Weight wise, I was over maxed out...and humping in the sand did a number on my knees. After the Marines, I joined the Army National Guard as an 11B. I was in college as a furniture hauler who thought he was indestructible. I would carry convertible couches on my back for years...I was warned by many old timers that I would regret it years later. I ignored them. At this time, I needed to listen to my body as I was noticing my knees, shoulders and back was not what it used to be. I ignored my aches and pains and thought it would go away. After moving back to my current location, I joined the martial arts. I studied Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido and Judo for the past 20 years. Due to injuries, I have had surgery on my left knee, my left shoulder...needed surgery on my right knee, but opted to let it heal naturally as well as looking at a possible surgery on my right elbow. 5 years ago, I again injured my left knee again and let it heal naturally. I still practice the martial arts, but not without two knee braces, and I do not let myself be thrown...I have the brown belts do that...or the younger black belts. Due to the carrying so much weight in the marines and army, as well as a furniture hauler, and literally thousands of judo falls...I cannot walk hundreds of yards with a pack, stand/blind and weapon without pain...sometimes a lot of pain. So this January, I bought the quietkat 750 watts ambush bike. To say that this bike has allowed me to go over rough terrain and long distance is an understatement. The bike has opened up doors that I thought was beginning to close. Last year, I had to go to a crossbow and put down my compound and recurve bow. I haven't sold either one yet in the hopes that one day I'll get to where I can hang up the crossbow. Even now as I type this my left shoulder, right elbow and both knees have slight pain..and that's with zero effort.

I've read most of the posts on here where the arguments is it's illegal on this land or that land, how it will make the lazy hunters have access to far away spots, etc.... I for one am for anyway to get out to where I can kill a deer or two, or ten. This year will be my first year with the quietkat, and I'm looking forward to the use. I'll let everyone know.

From: Scar Finga
07-Feb-18
Newhuinter1

Good for you brother, Go Get Er Done! God Bless, and Thank You For Your Service and Sacrifices!

From: wkochevar
07-Feb-18
To hell with all these ebike rules, I'm gonna go get me one of those one-seater personal drones and fly my way back off the grid....

From: cnelk
07-Feb-18
Lou stopped over this afternoon with his Rambo ebike and I took it for a spin.

I want one

From: Jaquomo
07-Feb-18
Thanks for your service Newhunter. Keep on keepin' on! You're an inspiration.

I had a long conversation today with the lead manager of the Colorado Parks and Wildlife agency in charge of issuing OHV vehicle registration and use in the backcountry on USFS/Heritage lands. He is all for assist-bikes on bike trails and closed roads to keep people enjoying the outdoors, believes the USFS is way behind the 8-ball, and that this will all get sorted out favorably in the next year. They're clarifying state policy now. Said even though the USFS classifies them as OHVs today, the state isn't requiring or issuing registration of e-bikes on USFS because they aren't "motorized" by state law, and if I'm contacted to tell the USFS ranger what he told me and use his name. He also mentioned his distain for "snobs" who don't want them on "their" bike trails, which was a pretty funny conversation when it morphed into trad vs. compound and skiers vs. snowboards.

From: Newhunter1
07-Feb-18
Thanks Scar and Jaquomo...it was my pleasure. I think my problems with the shoulder and elbow started when I would shoot an 85lb Bowtech Sampson for several years. I started hearing a tick, tick, tick in my shoulder when I would shoot...ignored that too. Looking forward to getting the 1 up rack so I can take this beast out. I did replace the axle with a quick release. Works great and I can now fit this beast in the back of my truck cab.

From: Native Okie
07-Feb-18
Good stuff Lou. I forgot to mention when I picked up my bike last weekend I mentioned a friend getting an ebike. The guy at the bike shops reaction to my statement was the reaction one would get talking crossbows on the leather wall.

From: eBike John
08-Feb-18
Newhunter1, Thank You for sharing. real life improvements are what ebikes are about. My background is not nearly as colorful as yours but I see some similarities, my knee complains a lot nowadays after years of soccer, martial arts and hard labor, in the past I gave up using bikes because it was not worth the pain but getting around on an ebike opened up closed doors

From: eBike John
08-Feb-18
hey cnelk, The new Rambo line will be available in about 2 weeks. I'll let you know when I have them up on the site.

From: BC173
08-Feb-18
Hey John.., what’s your opinion on the ‘ rad rover’ and the M2S!

From: grubby
08-Feb-18
cnelk, you should see the looks I get riding mine around the neighborhood! gives people something to talk about at the Muni!

From: cnelk
08-Feb-18
"gives people something to talk about at the Muni!"

As if they need more to talk about.

From: Newhunter1
08-Feb-18
eBike John, I didn't really want to wait for the 2018 line up...so I bought one of the 2017 at a reduced price. I originally was going to get the folding bike from Quietkat as one advertisement said it had 26" wheels. Then after ordering it, two days later I looked again and saw the same add stating 20" wheels. Looked at the spec sheet and it stated 26" tires. So I called the company to find out...it did come with the 20" wheels and I decided to cancel the order. However, Chase made me an offer I really didn't want to refuse. I got the 2017 Ambush full size bike with 26" tires for a nice reduced price, plus the rack. I had money coming back so I got the trailer and fenders for the bike. I just ordered the 1 up rack and should receive it tomorrow or Saturday.

As far as colorful goes...more like stubborn and stupid. I didn't listen to those who had life experiences and today I am feeling the pain. However, I would not change a thing with the experiences...maybe not trying to be Hercules in all my experiences. Live and learn. I will be taking the bike out again in the near future. Last week, I was going to go to my hunting area that I saw a ton of deer in. However a missing lady turned up at the hunting area deceased...that was the weekend I was going to go and look for sheds and other spots. Glad now I didn't go because with that bike I would have been all over the 5000 acres.

From: Ollie
08-Feb-18
To what extent does cold weather reduce the distance you can travel before the battery discharges?

From: grubby
08-Feb-18
I cant really answer your question but I have had mine out at -25 and it didn't really like it. I had some issues with the bike not wanting to engage, I'm still not 100% sure how this thing works so I don't know what the problem was but I'm quite sure it was due to sticky parts in the cold. The battery life is reduced but I couldn't tell you by how much. I didn't really enjoy riding it at that temp anyway.

From: Newhunter1
08-Feb-18
grubby,

What bike do you have?

From: grubby
08-Feb-18
I have the rambo

From: ohiohunter
08-Feb-18
Is anyone offering these bikes with 27.5" or 29" fat tires?

From: Jaquomo
08-Feb-18
I rode mine around in 8" of snow at 20 degrees and had no issues. That's about as cold as I'd want to ride it anyway.

From: Newhunter1
08-Feb-18
If it's 20 degrees out or colder there is no way I'm out riding. I've suffered enough in my life. Plus on those really cold days and a moderate to light wind...I don't see deer...or very few deer.

From: Jaquomo
08-Feb-18
I rode mine around in 8" of snow at 20 degrees and had no issues. That's about as cold as I'd want to ride it anyway.

From: Whocares
08-Feb-18
Would anyone buy one to make it even more difficult?? Duh!

From: txhunter58
08-Feb-18
"Whocares" what you think :-)

From: Newhunter1
08-Feb-18
Would anyone buy one to make it even more difficult?? Duh!

Just to hear why a person should be walking, or that they aren't man enough to do themselves...or why you shoot a crossbow instead of a compound. I could go on...

From: txhunter58
08-Feb-18

From: TheTone
08-Feb-18
https://legislature.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/sessioninfo/2018/legislation/H0508SOP.pdf

Oh man, how can the Idaho legislature be proposing laws with regards to e-bikes when HR 727 is the law of the land...

From: eBike John
09-Feb-18
Hi BC173,

I like both Rad Rover and M2S. both very good bikes and both worth the price.

Rad Rover I like, but they don't use online dealers and if I could stock them I would, good solid all purpose bikes.

M2S I actually spoke to the owner last week, I was trying to offer their range on my store, maybe in the coming months. the product looks very impressive and the price is pretty hard to beat. They are a very new small business bootstrapping the business so they order only around 150 bikes at a time and they are normally sold out before the shipments arrive so the waiting times are long, you could wait 2-3 months depending when you order but they are growing and they will soon be able to build larger volumes. This time next year the prices will definitely go up as they are basically selling wholesale until they get their foothold in the market. hope that helps

09-Feb-18
I got to look at the Quiet Kat line yesterday at the Harrisoburg Sport show. They had a show special of $2700 regular MSRP $3400. Lots of interest from the crowd. What struck me was the bike looked very rugged meaning the frame was not a typical bike frame with an electric conversion add on. I even asked the guy what it weighed and he said 70 pounds and looked every bit of that. I wonder how difficult it would be to even peddle a 70 pound bike without the electric if there was a failure.

From: Ollie
09-Feb-18
Do the bikes have enough "horsepower" to take you up a moderate incline without having to get off and push?

From: cnelk
09-Feb-18
"I wonder how difficult it would be to even peddle a 70 pound bike without the electric if there was a failure."

I rode Lou's the other night with and without the 'assist' and it was definitely a leg workout when the emotor wasnt on. I wouldnt want to do that very long or uphill

From: eBike John
09-Feb-18
Hi Ollie, this video could help with the uphill climb question

From: Jaquomo
09-Feb-18
John, I don't think your video link posted?

Ollie, I put mine in low gear and mid-level assist and pedaled up a very steep bank of a dry pond covered with weeds and dirt clods. I don't think I could reasonably get up that with my 21 speed mountain bike except in the lowest gear, which would be slower than walking and I'd be standing up on the pedals. A normal logging road incline, even a steep one, would be a piece of cake if you're in biking shape.

I did an 8 mile ride yesterday on gravel county roads, up and down, where I normally ride my mountain bike for fitness workouts (usually ride a 16 mile circuit on the MTB and push it). Tried out all the assist levels and gear combos. I pedaled the whole way, got a workout, except it navigated the uphill stuff faster and with less stress on my old knees and metal hip. That was a good thing and I was smiling as I went up. But it certainly isn't a motorcycle or an ATV.

My Rambo weighs around 50, I think. I can easily lift it onto the hitch-mount bike carrier. Wouldnt want to pedal it too far uphill without assist, like Brad notes, but on the level its not too bad in lower gears, and dowhill is no problem. I could get back to camp if it quit working for some reason.

From: Newhunter1
09-Feb-18
My quietkat weighs in at 52 lbs. I get my 1 up bike rack tomorrow.

From: Newhunter1
11-Feb-18
For those of you who have used an electric bike without a trailer, can you post a picture of how you brought a stand, sticks pack and bow with your bike.

From: Ollie
12-Feb-18
How do the three wheel QuietKats compare to the electric assisted 2 wheel bikes? Seems like the three wheelers might be a bit more stable to ride. I could carry it across the stream in the middle of my property which is too steep for an ATV. I can see advantages to having one on my whitetail property. Also understand the concerns whether they should be permitted in non-motorized areas. Getting older and hiking is not as fun as it once was.

From: spyder24
12-Feb-18
Ollie, I have been researching electric trikes. The QuietKat does not have pedals. I have been looking at the Addmotor and the Mt Bike Electric Trike. Both bikes are electric assisted. You should be able to ride electric assisted trikes with pedals anywhere you can ride 2 wheel ebikes on state and usfs land. Trikes should be more stable than 2 wheel bikes. If you are just going to ride it on private land it would not matter what you purchase. It would be buyers preference. Mike

From: Ironbow
12-Feb-18
Trikes are more stable on flat ground, but not on slopes and sharp turns. You can't lean a trike like you do a two wheel bike for balance, so keep that in mind.

From: Newhunter1
13-Feb-18
Also, the quietkat has several models. Two of the models are trikes while something like 6-8 different bikes are pedal bikes.

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