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Media attention on these things is one of the reasons they keep happening but I do believe that crazy is a big part of it. How could you do these things and be sane?

I’ve built more time out rooms and other seclusion areas in my career that I can remember

Try walking thru the halls of a 2000 student hs during passing time to get a feel of what really is going on with the younger generation

SRO’s can’t be everywhere. Every classroom has a teacher or staff in them.

Or any place with known armed occupants?

My heart breaks for those directly affected by these events. They are not imaginable to me. I don't have the answer, just sad stuff all around.

***That short post may be the best I've ever read on this problem and it's cause!

That said, a part of me wonders if as a society, not individuals... a society... we have lost the right to own certain weapons. I know thats viewed by sacralidge to some. But i have to think a guy doing this with a remington 870 would be tackled and halted having done less damage.

These events are horrible!

Then the sheriff comes out and says..."if you see something say something"...WTF ARM YOURSELF....nobody can keep you safe but yourself.

Schools today are built for the most part with non-flammable materials and yet they also have fire alarms and FIRE EXTINGUISHERS/SPRINKLERS. Why? In case there IS a fire. We need to have the exact same mindset and preparation plan for shootings.

Yes, we need security and all that to make sure that only current students are entering the school and maybe even scanners like they have at the airport. But first and foremost we need a "shooter extinguisher"......AN ARMED GUARD/TEACHER!!!

We have armed guards at banks, large public arenas, airports, government offices and around most elected politicians and the fancy private schools that THEIR kids attend. Why are our KIDS not as important as them or our money? What kind of idiot actually believes that if we put a sign up that says, "NO GUNS ALLOWED" at a school that a nutjob will actually obey it? HOW MANY more children must be harmed before we wake the hell up?

Armed personal won't prevent someone from going on a killing spree, but they darn sure can limit the slaughter. And of course the social issues...the "why".... needs to be addressed, but we still need the sheepdogs.

I teach in an elementary school and not a day goes by where I don't think about what I would do in an active shooter situation. Right now, I have a baseball bat to defend myself and my students, tell me what good that's gonna do when a guy comes in with an AR and starts spraying the place.

Realistically, Hillary Clinton has a better shot at winning the next election before schools start arming teachers, at least in our district/state. I know I would feel a lot better if I was allowed to have some kind of firearm in a lock box in my office. Would that stop 100% total loss of life, no, but I could minimize it that's for sure and I would feel a whole lot safer every day.

Or, you could try to legislate more "common sense gun control". Want to take a bet which solution would work faster?

You can control access by making bus unloading times and not letting a single vehicle enter the property that isn't a bus or a teacher with security clearance. If little junior or missy can't ride the tax payer funded bus, they get to be late. Because Mom and Dad shouldn't be able to clutter the system by dropping them off. If kids are driving themselves, if they don't have an id saying they belong there, they go home. That's the first thing.

Second, put ARMED GUARDS in the school. After 911, many buildings and such in New York required security clearance to gain access too. Why our schools are any different are beyond me. When I say Guards, that is what I mean. Not two working the gate. I mean two working the gate, several in commons area, several in every hall, on every floor, and make them FULL TIME. Every class change, they are there, when a student is dismissed to use the bathroom, they see the guards, etc.... They leave when business hours are over.

That brings up the third point. Run this like a business. There are times students and teachers are to be there. And, there are times when they aren't. No questions, school function, or any excuse should change that.

And, last but not least, take social media away from your kids. Moniter what they intake when they are allowed. Put your household in line with God's morals. And, pray for this country. That's all we got. Nothing else will work. God Bless men

Haven't you seen Terminator!

For prevention, See Something/Say Something. Any suspicious activity is reported to someone of authority, whether it be the school admin, LE or parent. Information that is vetted and verified becomes intelligence.

There were so many indicators on this kid it was ridiculous. This "lone wolf" left so many tracks it was ridiculous. But everyone around him ignored the "tracks".

My 11th grade biology teacher even let me use my Case Muskrat Skinner when we had to dissect a fetal pig because my knife was sharper than the scalpels they provided ( I trapped and learned REAL quick how to keep a "skinning edge" on a knife).

BTW......I still have that knife! The blades are VERY thin now but it's still sharp.

It's a very sad state of affairs. Add in technology and you will see that loving, married parents don't know their kids---they never talk. I read that in the 1960s, the average family dinner was approximately 1.5 hours. Today, it's about 15 minutes. There are major disconnects in the family unit today, even those that are intact.

Whether you are religious or not, reflect on this as you raise your children, as I think there is a lot of truth here:

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

The disbelief I felt during our discussion was unbelievable. If someone is about to harm you or your students, why in the hell would you not want to end that threat? I guess I was Just brought up different or came from a different background but holy crap, I had to bite my tounge several times in our discussion. Most of our staff was all about hiding and staying out of sight in an active shooter situation, barring their classroom door or stacking desks in front of it to try and keep the shooter out. This is the wrong approach in my opinion....like I said before, give me a gun and I will protect my students.

Most people don't think like us (hunters and gun owners). Of course we would say let's arm the teachers, or let's bring in a full security staff to every school in the nation, all good thoughts, but funding is the major issue and it's never going to happen. The powers to be think that bringing guns into schools will only lead to more violence and send the wrong message to students. This is an issue that will go on and on and no one resolution will fix the problem.

What the hell are we going to do about it RIGHT FREAKING NOW to put an end to it ?????

I'm tired of hearing the crap that we have to fix this in the home with good parenting.....

The hell with that. Keep my kid safe in school.... or she won't go. I'll home school her.

Teachers are predominantly ladies...... At least until college....

And a good percentage of those ladies are vagina hat wearing activists who will be voting for Oprah in 3 years.... They sure as hell aren't picking up a gun to protect our kids.

There should be ZERO inherent risk in sitting in a classroom....

You are comparing apples to oranges.........

No child should EVER be murdered in school in the USA....... PERIOD.

The only answer is total gun confiscation, but then some will turn to propane bombs, poison, whatever. Our American society and culture creates and media amplifies monsters who do this. Like Bigdan and others have said, when we were young everyone's dad had a gun, most teenaged boys had ready access to guns, but nobody shot up schools. This is a relatively new phenomenon. To say that no child "should" ever be murdered in school uses that dreaded "should" word. In today's culture, there's an inherent risk of a child being murdered anywhere. Very sad but true.

As previously mentioned, not only are the video games contributing to the challenge, but I feel that the same is true for many movies and TV shows that are now being released. Violent shoot-outs, explosions, choreographed knife fights and martial arts fighting are almost commonplace in many productions. In many instances, there is incredible damage to personal property, buildings, vehicles, and even innocent bystanders; yet there is frequently never any CONSEQUENCE to all of this carnage as long as the "bad guy" is foiled......whether captured or killed......and that is how the movie frequently ends.....with little or no attention given to the aftermath. The other disconnect for me, is that many of these movies are directed or produced by tree huggers or staunch members of the anti-gun movement....it makes no sense to me.....but I believe that the effects are clearly being seen now.

My bosses son and my boss had to walk through that war zone yesterday. He said he could not think of anything more terrifying for his son and his classmates then hearing shot after shot ring out and bodies hitting the ground. A lot of you internet tough guys think "oh, I'd have just shot the guy and been the hero". It doesn't work like that. It NEVER works like that! Someone (Trump) needs the balls to final get rid of the firearms with high capacity mags. It's real simple, they were ALL designed to end life and nothing else. Don't give me that horseshit that they are sporting arms. No one needs an AR-15 or an AK. If you think you do, you have issues.

As I exited my truck I heard yelling from outside the school and there were a bunch of kids/adults gathered. I heard someone say “I’m gonna f^%\%^ you up!”

Then suddenly 2 guys started running away. I was just standing by my truck observing what was happening.

As they ran away down the street, I moved to watch where they went.

The crossed the street and into another parking lot, jumped into a white suv.

About this time 2 SRO cops/vehicles come burning out from the school and down the road.

I tried to point to them where the 2 guys went but they just went down the street driving PAST the 2 guys.

The principal came up to me and I said those 2 are right there and the cops drove right past them!

He called one the cops and we described what was going on

About this time, the 2 guys drove out of the other parking lot and went the same way the cops did

About 1/2 mi, they turned and we communicated to the cops where they were.

The cops had to turn around and chased them down.

They did end up stopping them. The guess these 2 guys were former students, from a neighboring town and came to the school to cause trouble.

It’s everywhere. Everyday. Looking back, that could’ve turned out much different.

SROs do make a small difference but all schools need something more.

Parents/public don’t want prisons for schools.

People stick their heads in the sand and don’t want to be involved. If they do, it’s reactionary and filled w emotion.

How about we attack the real cause, the destruction of the American family. Shitty parenting. No parenting. Schools and governments aren't supposed to raise our kids, we are. Maybe start locking parents up would help. And we need to quit being so damn euphemistic and PC about mental health treatment.

Pointing out the blatantly obvious that it's a parenting problem or a video game problem isn't doing a damned thing to make this stop.

I've been involved in some training and it's curious that almost all school shootings were blueprinted from a previous shooting. Columbine has been documented as having been studied and idolized by several shooters shortly after it occurred. Non stop coverage certainly makes the problem feel more prevalent than it is, and encourages the behavior to happen more.

Makes you kinda wonder WHY doesn't it?

Seriously. I am not to the "tinfoil hat" point but I'm close.

Standing up to liberal and progressive opinions will.

"Hollywood' emphasizes and glorifies mass violence in nearly all the blockbuster movies and much of society idolizes the stars. It doesn't matter the collateral damage, as long as the "hero" can walk out of the smoke and carnage with the girl on his arm. Cities destroyed and innocent's sacrificed by the hundreds, but that doesn't matter as long as your hero survives.

Check out the most popular video games. And people wonder why kids have no regard for human life or even any idea what is real.

And these are produced by the very industry, stars and "heroes" that constantly decry "gun" violence.

Her HS is well over 1200 students. She stated their training is pathetic. It basically involves cowering. With her knowledge of the school layout and where the SRO's/when, within 30 seconds she rattled off how 1 or 2 bad people could cause major harm in 3 minutes.

As bad as this sounds, she understands that she is her own best advocate. The head on her shoulders. When the crap hits the fan, chaos ensues. You have to plan and work through the mayhem. We talked out where to flee to in a shooter showed up at lunch time, what to do, etc. How to flee building (EX A secondary shooter could be stationed outside of main entrance, etc.)

I also told her how to watch for behavior changes. Even lone wolf assailants will give up clues. Changes in attitude on social media, etc. If you see something, say something. People cannot sit on the sidelines at the risk of "offending someone". Prevention is the best way to avert casualties.

When we talked about the Florida shooting last night, she shook her head. Many things we had talked about a week ago played out yesterday.

Some how Social Media must be policed ! With these nut jobs currently "Posting" their intentions on Social Media,

IT IS TIME FOR THE OWNERS OF THESE VARIOUS SITES TO BE ACCOUNTABLE AND TO ACT RESPONSIBLY !

To shut any site down that someone is posting hate, the intention to harm / kill other people. Take away their platform of self induced delusions of importance or power.

I for one think a 30 day wait for a background check on a firearm purchase would help. A three day background check is not sufficient to weed out these nut jobs.

I cannot recall any of these murders being classified as a shooting by a liberal or a conservative. The commonality of these tragedies seems to be a lack of respect for others, for the law, for authority, or for themselves.

A sad, sad day indeed.

:^{

Uh....one that wants to see another sunrise?

Of course, then, the secretaries, office staff are sitting ducks

But its only a good attempt to do whats right. When anyone can go up to an exterior classroom door, knock and 'little Johnny' jumps up from his chair and opens the door.... well... that a problem too

Problem is, the far left isn't responsible enough, when in power, to allow that...

“Dean Hazen, owner of The Gun Experts in Mahomet, Ill., and a master firearms instructor, said the reason mass shooters are turning to the AR-15 is due to a "copy-cat" mentality more than any feature of the rifle.

"It's really just a perception thing," Hazen said. "There are rifles that are more powerful and more dangerous than that, but they're not being used."

Hazen said the AR-15 has "gotten a bad rap." He believes mass shooters generally don't know much about guns and choose the AR-15 because of the reputation it has gotten from being used in other mass shootings.

"Thank God they don't know any better because if they did they would use much more effective weapons," Hazen said.

I knew some of this was going on but didn't know the full extent of it as it's humiliating for a boy to say he's being bullied. What the kid didn't know was my son is a two time state champion wrestler and has boxed for two years. I gave him the green light to stop this kid as he was doing it when no teachers were around and being sneaky. The final straw was the bully kid ripped up a paper and my son told him if he did one more thing he was "coming after him."

The kid followed my son to his next class before the bell rang and before the teacher arrived and pushed him from behind and ran around pointing his finger and laughing. My son chased him down until he was in range and hit him with two straight right hands. The kid decided he'd try and take my son down but he wasn't successful getting him off his feet either.

My son was suspended and the other kid was "verbally talked to" but I was told the hitting had to be isolated and dealt with separately. I felt like the other kid was treated more like a victim than my son. I told him before this went down that I wouldn't be upset with him but he would have to face the school consequences since I had no control over that part.

Apparently, what he should have done was request a "bullying form" from the main office and write down incidences. My problem with this system which may sound good in theory is even after this was all out in the open, I had to twist his arm to get him to write these things down. It doesn't seem to be the best solution and kids don't trust that telling someone won't make matters worse. The principal slipped up and admitted he knows the other kids family and has coached the bully kid and his sister on some sports teams. I half expected a phone call from the other kids' parents asking me why my son hit their son for no reason.......

Relating this all to the mass shooting, I drop my two younger boys off for school every morning and look at all these middle schoolers wandering around which is a tough age anyway. I can visually pick out kids that are loners, nerdy looking, goofy looking, don't have nice clothes or sneakers etc....Apparently, the worst of it nowadays is bullying over social media and ostracism. An unsupervised kid with no friends or bad friends could be sitting in the basement for hours and hours living a "virtual" life on video games and media forming a skewed view of himself/herself and the world.

I've just seen a few photos of the Florida shooter and he looks like one of these oddball kids (now adult) kids I'm talking about. If these kids don't have support at home or worse yet, chaotic or absentee parenting, there can be these type of deadly outcomes.

There are problems stemming and festering with kids from an early age and oftentimes breakdown of the family plays into it. Teachers often have their hands tied or are overwhelmed with chaos and disrespect. Many kids don't feel they have the ability to talk to someone and/or defend themselves or stick up for themselves.

I'm not sure about the suggested remedies although "militarizing" the schools would probably go a long ways towards stopping the mass shootings.

They've obviously never used a semiauto/pump 12 gauge shotgun at close range with the plug out, an open choke, and #4 buck in the magazine. Talk about an "assault" weapon!

BIG BEAR is right. Put trained, armed guards in half the schools and leave the other half as kill pens they are now so the folks who "don't want their kids to experience" the stress of armed security have the choice. Guess which schools will be full to the max? And guess which school will be the target of the next whacko?

I don't like what our world has become either, but it is what it is. First things first.

This is an honest question. Nobody can tell me that if this lunatic had walked in with an 870 that 17 kids would have died before he'd have been stopped.

These assault style weapons are designed for one thing and one thing only, and that's to inflict the maximum amount of damage in the shortest amount of time. They are proving to be very effective at that, especially against the most vulnerable members of our society.

One person dead is NOT the same as 50 (or 17 in this case). Not even close. That's the biggest bunch of B.S. I've ever read. Try telling that to the parents who are sitting in their kid's empty rooms tonight, trying to figure out how they are going to go on with their lives, let alone plan a funeral.

It's insanely selfish that so many here put their desire to own a toy over the lives of innocent children.

Nothing will change, though. In a week nobody will be talking about this anymore, families will still be paralyzed by the pain and loss they've suffered, and another lunatic will be buying up ARs, high capacity magazines, and ammo - planning the next attack on innocent children.

I don’t have answers, but arming teachers would not do much to deter someone who has his mind set to do something like this. My wife has been a teacher for a long time and putting a gun in her hands would be useless. No amount of training would prepare her to attempt to stop an armed terrorist, she does not like handling guns. There might be a very small handful of people in the whole building who could possibly try an armed intervention, but during an attack the teachers duty is too keep the students out of harms way as much as possible.

My thoughts are in line with deerhunter72, Lawdy and elk yinzer above. The problem is families are broken here in America and it has become the new "normal". There is no or very little accountability for parenting and core values are being set aside for a PC culture that enables kids to do their own thing with lack of parental supervision and control. Dads aren't around. Moms aren't around. Kids are put on the back burners to get into trouble at their own free will and with no repercussions. Kids have more kids and the cycle moves on... Sure, we want to point our fingers at the shooter, but he's a direct product, one of many, that our society has enabled.

Now the media is making this animal famous, and others who are off their rockers see it and want the same anti-hero notoriety.

And the cycle will continue until we get serious about really protecting schools, instead of simply "declaring" them safe. I've given up on the notion that family values and nurturing will return in this country on a broad scale, at least in the urban areas. That ship sailed back in the '70s.

Crazy people have been here since the first monkey started talking. They have been working on how to better kill each other ever since. So many of you guys are applauding/In love with a weapon used to kill so many kids yesterday and blaming anything but the gun. You are nothing more than sick bastards. You have more resect for a firearm than you do for human life. You can not stop crazy. It isn't possible! But you can get rid of guns designed to kill kids in schools.

It's insanely selfish that so many here put their desire to own a toy over the lives of innocent children.

To me, the ignorance lies here, in thinking that the type of weapon used or the number of people killed makes a difference. He,could have,gone in there with a bomb strapped on his body and killed a,hundred. It was still just one nut who,did,tit

Dotman you are dumb too. The AR-15 is the direct design as the M-16. Minus fully automatic.

"How many extra kids need to die before it's ok to ban AR-15s and high capacity magazines?? 10? 500? 5,000?"

First, appropriate handle. You've basically stated that there is an acceptable level of deaths. Be it one, seven, or ten. I can reload my AR in under 3 seconds, 2 if I push it. My Springfield XDm, the same. My Shield, the same. Not so sure why we are hung up on the tool and not the reasons this happens. Hint, it aint AR15's. For those that say Rem870's aren't used. It's believed the majority of the fatalities at Colombine were shotgun induced, as the Keltecs jammed. Charles Whitmann used a Rem 700 in 6mm, along with an M1 carbine to kill 16 and wound 31 on 01-Aug-1966.

Now, the first time a scoped deer rifle is used in a multiple shooting, you can be damn sure the media will label it a high powered sniper rifle that does belong in the hands of civilians. Do NOT let the media OR the politicians dictate what the REAL problem is.

"Ok, I'm tired of intellectually lazy marxist pieces of shit who can't figure this out and keep making it worse out of either their own ignorance or despicable plan. Here are some FACTS: The semi automatic rifle has been for sale to the civilian population in the U.S. since 1903. Colt introduced the AR-15 model in 1963. There were 25 public shootings (more than 4 people shot in a single incident in a public place) prior to 1966 when the first modern mass shooting incident occurred when a student sniper fired from a clock tower deck at a Texas university. From 1963 when the AR-15 was first offered for sale to the public till 1990 (roughly 27yrs) there were 36 more incidents in which 4 or more people were shot in public places - an average of 1.33 per year. From 1990 till today (roughly 27 more years) there have been 89 more incidents in which 4 or more people were shot and killed in public places - an average of 3.29 per year or a 140% increase for the 27 years after 1990 vs the 27yrs before 1990. From 2004-2008 there were 15 incidents for an average rate of 3.75 incidents per year. The last 10yrs (2008 to today) there have been 51 incidents for an average rate of 5.1 incidents per year. Not only has the rates of incidence of mass public shootings gone up exponentially, but so has the death toll - the body counts are getting larger with each incident. So lets talk about the only thing that has not changed - the AR-15, it works the same as the first Semi automatic rifle released in 1903 did, there was no change in deadliness introduced to the market in 1963, and the 30 round magazine has been in public use since 1972, no statistically significant rise in mass shootings occurred when these things were made available to the public when looking at periods 10 yrs before or 10 yrs after. So now lets go over some important dates of when things really did start to change for our country. 1960's - Marxist fueled hippie counter culture takes hold and begins to degrade all traditional morals and values of the culture of the United state of America. 1963 - Abington School District v. Schempp, the court decided against Bible readings in public schools - 2 years later the FIRST school shooting occurs on a clock tower in texas. The top five complaints of teachers from 1940-1962 -- talking, chewing gum, making noise, running in the halls and getting out of turn in line – to rape, robbery, assault, burglary and arson from 1963 to present. 1969 - the Divorce Reform Act is passed telling us all that family, honor, and promises sworn before God are not valuable - the divorce rate more than doubles in the next 11 yrs and reaches higher than 50% of all marriages. 1973 - Roe V Wade tells us innocent human life is not valuable 1987 - report from the AAP, Medication for Children With an Attention Deficit Disorder, offers 'indications for drug therapy in the treatment of attention deficit disorder,' such as Ritalin, Dexedrine, Cylert, and 'other potentially useful drugs,' including tricyclic antidepressants 1990 - Gun Free School Zone act is passed by congress making it a federal crime to be able to defend children while they are in school. The 5 precedingd years there were 8 total incidents of mass shootings, the 5 years following there were 17 - a more than 100% increase. 1992 - The first "first person shooter" video game Wolfenstein is released. Video games of this type are referred to by Military psychologist and expert in the physiological response to high stress fight or flight combat situations Lt. Col Dave Grossman as "fantastic training simulators for mass shootings". 1993 - Risperidone, the most commonly used antipsychotic medication for children is released and begins to be prescribed to children. 2004 - Facebook goes online and the social media era becomes mainstream. 2008 - Obama is elected and Marxism takes hold of both the Whitehouse and the media in a tidal wave fashion like this country has never seen. The message is loud and clear to psycho-tropically medicated, depressed, immoral, godless, sexually confused, broken home raised, mass murder simulation trained attention seekers with an instant platform for fame - nobody loves you, nothing you do is your fault, you are right to be angry, there is no God, life is meaningless. From 2008 to today the rate of mass shooting incidents of 5.1 per year is approx 3,823% higher than it was from 1776 to 1966 - all the years of this country's existence prior to the first modern mass school shooting and the mainstream influence of Cultural Marxism (otherwise known as modern liberalism) on our nation. You liberals wan't to have a conversation about what really changed in this nation? Let's have it a-Hole!"

I don't care if you are dumb enough to think that banning an AR15 will fix the problem. I just want to fix the problem. Banning the tool here isn't the answer when there are other tools that would have been just as effective. If this guy only killed 17 people in a mass shooting in the student and teacher filed halls of a school, a marlin 60 22LR would have done that. It's not the gun. He chose the AR because he was obsessed with it's "coolness". He was a disturbed person that gave multiple signs of being so. So, what was the problem. You can't fix crazy. But, you can stop it if you are prepared.

You can hate me, talk mean on your computer from the safety of your home, etc.... . But, please go back up and read catscratch's post. It is SPOT ON. No band aid effect with his reasoning and diagnosis. Just THE way to get the desired results. God Bless men

We live in a nation producing depraved individuals looking to commit mass atrocity. And our government is statutorily illuminating our children as bug lights for these animals. It's a tragically sick dynamic.

So why don't you call down and tell us what YOU would ban to stop the carnage, and let's logically work backward from there, ok?

I was thinking by the end of the week. And never, ever, mention his name.

I'm serious. I googled, and since that law went into effect, I cant find one. Maybe there was though.

The post about the gun shop owner who suggests copy cat mentality is the reason for AR's. There's a ton of bias there. The guy is selling a weapon which a lot of people feel is a player in mass casualty events. He likes them. Some one asks and he has to be at least a little defensive. When we get defensive we dig in like crazy - even in cases where we are shown absolute evidence that we are wrong. So that guy focuses on the crazy folks copying other mass shooters. Because you know, they are on the news every single day (sarcasm)... But SWAT and the military are rarely shown in any form of media with said weapons. Is there a little bit of a chance, that they (shooters) are copying military or militarized uses that they see, every, single, day? Maybe not. But there's as much evidence of that as there is of being a copy cat.

The idea of metal detectors and arming teachers or adding additional (in most cases) armed guards makes sense. As does improving access to mental health services. Everyone ok with paying for that. I am. I'm just curious if everyone is cool with higher taxes to pay for truly valuable services like those? I guess in a perfect world we could take a quarter or half percent or two out of the military or other services and just re-allocate those $. Or we could reduce waste, that would be good as well. Somehow we have to pay for those services though.

In the end nothing is going to change. It hasn't over the past what, 20-25 years now? We clearly dont want it to, as a nation. We will all (as a nation) argue about crap, and retreat to our bunkers unwilling to consider any level of compromise on the off chance it could save some lives. Frustrating situation to grapple with for damn sure.

It is a gun, anyone can use a guy to kill with, I guess Ferrari’s should be outlawed because they are bred from race cars.

2) you can't put the genie back in the bottle (uninvent the automatic weapon).

What LAW will stop mass shootings? None.

Two things solve this: 1) You make schools safer. Soft targets are inviting.

When I got off the airport in Frankfurt, Germany years ago I saw military guards carrying fully automatic rifles. We are having our schools shot up and won't even put half that security in place. I guess theology isn't the only thing the Germans still do better than us. Sigh...

2) You enforce justice comparable to the crime. Folks aren't afraid to do this stuff anymore, because they can die in prison of old age. You execute this shooter immediately after conviction in at least a semi-public context...and that signals consequence.

It's a shame our country is so messed up that neither of the above options is happening.

I will remain armed however I choose. The government will not place tighter structures on my gun possession abilities. Period. Why?

1) It's not the solution. It's a step backwards...because...2) The freedom to bear arms is what would make these public places safer.

Blaming an inanimate object takes a special kind of stupid or naivete.

Saying things like: We have to do SOMETHING, and then being ok with doing something that makes it worse, requires an intellectual dishonesty that frankly puts you in a category with those not even worth discussing this issue with.

When bad things happen, dangerous things, the people who get called are people with guns (and the know how and willingness to use them). Wouldn't it make sense to put those very same people (the Sheepdogs) closer to where they might be needed when the shit hits the fan?

I do think that there should be a law... yep a law....( there will never be an agreement between the media outlets) to restrict the airing of the suspects face and name...the 1st Amend has plenty of restrictions...the classic can't yell fire in a crowded theater ...why because we know people will hurt themselves in the chaos. It is well know on the Phys community and common sense that these POS losers in many regards want attention...I don't need to know their name and really no one else does either...magic wand??? Nope but if it it prevents one it is well worth it.... Additionally I think we should have a fast track Death penalty in such cases...in a few months he should be gagging at the end of a rope and shi**ng his pants...

A brief over view. We have a guy that commented on the internet that he was going to be the next professional school shooter. His screen name on You tube was HIS real name. So, instead of the FBI tracking down the 13 nationwide people that were registered on you tube as Nikolas Cruz, spelled with a "k" instead of a "ch", in 2017 when he posted this on the WORLD wide web, they rushed to interview the guy who took a screen shot of the post and notified them of it. Then just forgot about it.

Amazingly, this is the same FBI that has been found to conduct many private civilian investigations but, couldn't muster the one day it would have taken to contact regional offices and, have field officers knock on the doors of those 13 people. This is the same FBI that has time for many of their agents to conspire for MONTHS on how to illegally influence the democratic election that defines this republic. Yet they can't take the time and effort to commit one day to investigate a guy who openly claims he is going to KILL our kids. But, even through all of this, all some people can do is blame this on guns, the current administration, Republicans, or anyone that understands the problems of fact and, not base their opinion on emotions or political party stances. This is the most unbelievable thing I have ever read.

Are we becoming that emotionally driven in this country? Do we no longer posses the ability to reason with sense instead of emotion? Either way, for whatever reason the people of this country have for not being able to address these problems effectively, it doesn't change reality. To fix any problem you must address the problem. And, anything else is unacceptable. You don't have to agree with someone to see if the are truly intent on solving the problem. But, you do have to be real with yourself in order to achieve a favorable result.

Current laws make it hard for back ground checks to include medical information on those who are truly in a state of mind that would make them candidates for red flags. Current laws of wait time have absolutely zero impact on gun committed crimes. Statistics say that. These shootings are not a spur of the moment action by a truly insane person. These are crimes of intent that are being planned and carried out by a demented person intent on carnage. So what will banning a semi auto gun do to stop this when the problem isn't the semi auto gun? What would have happened if the FBI had prioritized this as they should have. What would have happened if the kids that say this guy was a nut job that obsessed about this kind of stuff, would have spoken up before he did this? I'm guessing he would have been stopped before.

The one common denominator in all these mass shooting cases was that something failed besides the gun laws. So what is truly the real problems? If you are intent on fixing it, it can't be any more plain.

God Bless men

The “cat’s out of the bag” when it comes to banning guns.....too many in circulation already

There are hundreds of models of repeating firearms that even qualify as Curios and Relics, or Antiques under current ATF laws. Give any one of those to someone who is a half decent shot and they would kill more than this idiot did. Any one of these firearms would never make it to a gun ban list. There are many semi-auto .30 cal rifles built in the early 1900's still in circulation that are easily acquired on any gun auction site or gunshow that fire bullets with two or three times the stopping power of the tiny 5.56 AR-15 bullet.

As for your 870 shotgun statement, you must not have any gun experience. If he had buckshot at 40 yards he could have hit 3 or 4 kids with one shot. Buckshot 00 through #4 buck can be deadly to several hundred yards.

Rough Country- During the gun scare during the Obama Administration, an ATF analyst made the comment that it would take over 50 years to purge the KNOWN guns from the U.S.

"And if you can't look through the Cabelas sales flyer and not identify which ones are the assault weapons and which ones are good old hunting weapons you're simply dumb. "

Oh, the scary black ones? Tell me the difference between those and the good old hunting weapons. Exactly how would the law read to ban the "assault weapons" and not hunting weapons. No black guns allowed?

And, hell yes, some guns are made to kill people. Like my carry piece or any other gun for home defense. The second amendment wasn't written to protect our right to own hunting weapons.

After something like this happens you have an easy trail to follow. Prior... It looks like this one was in neon with a fog horn... But some how people behind a desk a thousand miles away should have solved it when people literally with the kid every day were unable to articulate what they suspected - or didnt know the way to report it? It's easy to say: "If I saw X I'd call the PD and get them involved"... But most people want to believe folks are not evil - if you are not, it's pretty hard to imagine what this kid did as being possible. Most people want to avoid challenges or sticky situations, so rather than get involved, they assume the next person will.

Maybe this will start turning the tide there.

The end point is that a kid who clearly was broken and showing everyone that that was the case, managed to escape detection at a hundred different levels. Frustrating as hell. Especially since nothing is going to happen at pretty much any level to change anything since both political "sides" cant operate together in basically any way.

It's like arguing with a 4 year old, no one wins, and you look back thinking that was really dumb. Only we've been doing it for years and will continue - if anything, this go round, everything looks even more polarized.

Frustrating as hell.

(I sure dont have an answer, and I see no one in "leadership" willing to work towards one, so this whole thing just frustrates me to hell - hence my fairly cheeky and grumpy posts about it... Not trying to be offensive or argumentative. I'm just really frustrated with it.)

The Safe Students Act repeals the gun free school zones from 1990.

The FBI sure deserves some of the blame. How can you make that claim on a public accessed web page viewed by the whole world, be researched to find out there were only 13 people country wide with that spelling of his name, that even posted on you tube, and not knock on those 13 doors? How is that possible? I’m certain they had the technology and legal means to narrow the search if wanted. Nope. They just forgot about it. Classy act for sure. Where is their accountabilitY? This is one of the tasks they are responsible for monitoring. So how did such an easy to find individual never even receive a knock on the door? I don’t know bud, but that’s got enough stink to it to attach somewhere.

Then we have people that think banning a gun would have stopped this. Are you kidding me? No one would do their job. From what I’m seeing, He could have built a nuclear bomb and openly boasted about it, and then been able to detonate it.

After reading some of these responses, it’s little wonder why these things keep happening. To many people throwing darts at the board. Unbelievable.

With all due respect,

A facebook, article / source is your choice of factual news ?

It's Obama fault ?

Somehow I find it hard to believe any rational thinking person who thinks a social media platform is truly a representative and a factual news organization, must also believe in the merits and facts printed in the National Enquirer.

With this said I agree there is a problem in this country . Could the problem be the unwillingness of people to listen to others, to sort out fact from fiction, to not believe in the non-factual muck that abounds in our society ? This isn't about choosing sides, it isn't about who can distort the facts of a serious issue, it isn't about who can rant and rave the loudest. It is about the welfare of our citizens, both adult and children who should have the knowledge they will be safe in our country be it on the street the home or a classroom. It is a sad day indeed when a senseless massacre occurs and Facebook is our reason to blame fellow Americans, who had nothing to do whatsoever with a mentally deranged person being allowed to purchase a AR-15 for the sole purpose of killing innocent people.

If my reply makes me an a-Hole then so be it.

At least I try to be a sensible one.

Hundreds of people in direct or indirect contact with him and it feels like "we" - when I turn on the news, see social media etc - like to point to the FBI or political sources.

I dont have an answer, but it feels like the answer starts (doesnt end) with local people understanding who and how to tell when they see something. Do you just call the non emergency police line? State / local / county? The principle of schools? Local-ish FBI office? How do you as a citizen learn to really verify that a person should be checked out.

I need to take a timeout - because the whole damn thing frustrates me hugely...

Then the same people are bubbling with enthusiasm over the release of the new block buster movie Black Panther. Trailer after trailer of violence and solving your problems with extreme violence. From hand to hand fighting to mass killings. "Heroes" getting their "justice" by force and being glorified for it.

In the past you could always tell the good guys from the bad guys and good always won. No lines exist now.

Where do you think the shooter learned his problem solving skills??

It takes men willing to commit great violence to prevent violence. Our military has operated under that premise for over 241 years.

And there we have it...

Where is your outrage over the FBI blowing the lead where the they were given the individual s name and statement of his desire to be a school shooter.

This intellectual libturd attitude is the same reason that every time I take a group of Soldiers to lovely Detroit they say it reminds them of Baghdad! Your emotional wailing is like a whiney a$$ woman.

Why not ask yourself a question like why is this behavior happening in the greatest country in the history of mankind. Do some really critical analysis instead of the status would yap that comes from the everyday soccer mom! I do not want to hear the emotional argument under the guise of intellectualism!

This is like talking about collusion with our greatest adversary and not asking why we handed over 20% of our uranium which is the critical component for nuclear expansion!

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when children across this country are scared to go to school and pleading with us to make their schools safer, but we'd rather see them die than give up a fractions of a percentage of our "freedom."

It's obvious the root of this is mental health, but I'm still waiting for someone to bring forth a solution to that problem that will save lives. If banning the weapon of choice for these monsters can reduce the average death toll of these tragedies by, say, 30% is it worth it? I know my answer.

Wait until the this generation, who grew up with these school shootings, are in control. Then see what the gun laws looks like. Of course, most here will be long gone, so who really cares, I guess. As long as I can have my AR now....

And since there are more than 8 million guns that look scary to you currently in private ownership, what's your plan to confiscate them?

If banning ALCOHOL for these monsters can reduce the average death toll of these tragedies by, say, 30% is it worth it? I know my answer.

There. Fixed. Drunk driving kills 10,000 folks per year, many children. Don't they deserve protections as well? I know my answer.

And some say it’s a gun problem :)

Think about that for second. There is no such thing. Guns themselves are not violent. They have no will or intentions of their own.

It's the PEOPLE who operate them that are the violent ones. Attacking the gun is pointless. It's the human beings who need to be "controlled". A gun that's not handled by a human being with bad/harmful/careless intent can never hurt anyone. The same cannot be said for a person.

When did this all dramatically change? In shear number it started with the Columbine era incident. What changed in the 80's and 90's, our country has gone through drastic changes. For thousands of year we were an agrarian society. Then for 150 years industrial and agrarian. We are now technological. " the changes I address": Technological changes and 24 hour news. Information overload. The other dramatic change was recognizing the rights of people with Mental Health issues.

Now these all tie in to our country more than any other due to the fact that we have more freedoms than any other country. Anyone can go out into the communities they join and find like minds or followers. Yes stop looking at social media as social media it is the new communities of our society. How should we behave in communities. We have neighborhood watch right and law enforcement. We watch out for our neighbors.

I have taught my students for 20 years you can only believe 10% of what is on national media. How do you sort fact from fiction. It is all about ratings and mass shooting coverage get ratings. Drama gets ratings. 15 minutes of fame or infamy! I laugh now that others state Fake News! We have not even begun to figure out how to deal with the drastic changes our society had under gone in the last 40 years. Not what are our options. As a teacher who wants to see no children hurt anywhere I see the options as follows.

1. I call on congress and President Trump who I as a teacher support to train and place an armed guard in every school. Fully funded! Of all the stupid things we pay for do it!

2. Some trained staff in every school with a lock box hand ID to respond and have a a chance to defend our kids.

3. Teach citizenship and community responsibilities. What does being a good member of a community look like and how do they act. "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun".

For prevention, how about a FBI who is more interested in utilizing the tips they get and resources they have to surveil these domestic terrorists, lone gunmen, etc. instead of political conquest and spying on political candidates??? Yes it is true that Trump Admin, ALCU agree on not taking guns away from people who have not been through the due process of being declared mentally ill. Everyone has the right for due process, just like 1st, 2nd, 4th amendment, etc. Do we really want something like the no fly list floating around that is created by unknown sources, has errors in it and no way to correct the listing if you are placed on it by an admin error??

My kids schools have lock in programs, if some visitor come in they need to use the proper entrance. Lower, middle schools have intercom for access, cameras right at the door. If someone trys to come in a side door unauthorized access, alerts go out. Law enforcement, AND parents. Its happened only a few times. Probably someone testing the system or a child custody issue. There also was a bear in the playground a few years back, different kid of alert that day...

Religion is a solution for peace.... but my religion or your religion doesn't have a monopoly on peace.

The media has blown things out of proportion the drugs in schools all along its all twisted. They have metal detectors in some schools how did he get through this was there one in this school?

Who is professional enough to know what to actually do. Home school then you shield your kids and there's other problems unforeseen. Whats the answer they want to eliminate God and bring in false Gods.

Troubling times for sure that cost us all with time and money and great disappointments.

Half the world may have mental illness in one form or the other have you driven on any roads lately to see all the rage? I have and do.

Selfishness and rebellion is the basic root of all this and who sows discord!

That "18 school shootings this year" is false. That number includes accidental discharge of a police officer weapon, etc. Only 3 shootings this year that are this type of tragedy.

:-O

And Mexican tap water is perfectly safe to drink.........

There are not enough armed volunteers to go around for every school.

Both of these solutions are treating symptoms not the problem!

That's not quite right. We have freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM. That, and the government shall NOT establish an official religion. In this country you are free to worship as you choose, as long as it abides by our laws.

They really do server no purpose that another type of gun won't do better.

Where were the calls to ban White Rental Trucks after the Nice event? Once the "black rifles are taken away, the Remington will be next.

Saying they "serve no purpose that another type of gun won't do better" is simply wrong, but we can save that for another debate.

Everyone expects he should have been stopped because of what he said on a blog and that a 19 year old should not be able to buy an AR-15. It gets sticky since he had a clean criminal record......should law enforcement be able to act before something happens or in the absence of a criminal record? That would effect overall freedom for all citizens.

Does it place a proper bandage on broken homes, unsupervised children and medicated youth with emotional/psychological problems?

But of course, that makes too much sense and this is a time for irrational emotional eruptions, not "sensible teenaged driving safety restrictions".

You are right, but everytime anyone gets in a car they do realize they are taking a risk. Even if just heading down to the 7-11 on the corner.

14 year olds should not have to consider sitting in pre-algebra a risk to their lives. They just shouldn't.

It's different this time.................

Risk is everywhere.

The 2nd amendment was written to ensure we had the freedom and weapons available to remain a republic. We owe it to our future generations to get this right. To get over the politics and partisanship and, address this problem head on. No amount of reasoning will work unless it addresses the real problems. The AR15 is not going any where right now because of this reason. As bad as it appears, most decent and well intended Americans still see the real problem.

Might change the narrative. As it is, guns and the NRA are easy targets.

Liberty and freedom are words that most people do not understand the full magnitude and why many chose to die to protect this way of life. Many more do not understand that there are people who think they know better how people should live their own lives. Sadly, this is not just about guns. There is much more that hangs in the balance.

Sickening to see "grown ups" use kids when they are vulnerable to push a cry baby agenda.

If the parents aren't teaching it, then it's up to the individual to find it on their own and that's just the way it is. Even if religion is the answer to school shootings, it is not inline with the Constitution for the government to be in the business of religion.

As far as I see, because part of our society is completely broken, the only answer to this problem is armed police in the schools. I don't want armed teachers in my kid's schools with, for as far as I know, mediocre shooting skills, nerves of phlegm, etc. I want trained professionals who's business it is to kill bad guys should the need arise. That's what we need. The "gun-free" signs need to go and we need cops in the schools.

As far as the "no kid wants to go to school in a XXX..." I say BS. I'll tell you what no kid wants more than anything and that's to be shot at school. After Sandyhook, my family had an open conversation about it and my kids were absolutely ok with armed police being in the school. They didn't want just anyone to be able to take a gun, but they were completely ok with uniformed, armed police patrolling the school grounds. Armed police are totally normal in our society.

There is a reason it was put in there and in the order it appears...

This won't work if you just put regularly trained police in schools they need to be trained to deal with kids as well as protecting.

I don't believe it's guns. I don't believe it's mental health. I believe kids and adults feel this behavior is OK and because of that it's time to stop pretending. There's no more, if it's when will this happen again.

Sucks!!!

I appreciate and totally agree with how Ike started his post with this statement "You cannot force religion on people. It does not work unless you do it at the end of a sword. You cannot force people to be moral or ethical." I would further elaborate and say conversion at the end of the sword is no conversion at all rather its coersion.

I believe where we start getting off base is when we start making statements that we've heard somewhere but really are not true - like in this thread where someone made the statement "Our Founding Fathers whom were smart enough to protect our gun rights in the 2nd Amendment were also smart enough to protect religion and protect us from religion in the 1st Amendment." - NOTHING could be further from the truth. Our Founding Fathers did not give us freedom FROM religion, they gave us freedom OF religion (as has already been pointed out). And there is a 180 degree difference between FROM religion and OF religion. The progressive agenda seeks to reword the Founding Fathers and thence totally change what they actually wrote and their intent and today people in their ignorance, rather than going back and fact checking simply believe what someone repeats long enough.

Here's what the Founding Fathers gave us in their great forethought - Freedom of Religion - go back and actually read it - and put it in context of what they had gone through. (Think of what they'd seen in history and what they were fleeing - religious persecution - think Church of England, Catholic church, etc... real life instances where the government had wed with a demomination and forced it on the citizens.) It's as simple as this - the state and church will not get together and force a "state church" on anyone in this country. In other words the Baptist church and the state of Missouri cannot get together and decide that the "state church" of Missouri will be Baptist. If anything like that was ever put forth - I'd be the FIRST in line opposing that nonsense (and for sake of full disclosure, I'm a Baptist pastor). If I thought another denomination was right, that's what I'd be, but I'm not about to MAKE anyone be a Baptist. I believe in soul liberty which simply means this - you have the individual right to choose whatever religion you choose to be (as long as it abides by the laws of our land) - but you will answer to God for that choice one day. Choices have consequences. I can converse with you and show you what I believe God says and if you choose to disagree with me - that's your choice and we can still be friends and neighbors, not enemies.

The Bible was a reading textbook in school many generations ago. Not saying we were a perfect society back then and didn't have societal issues, just stating a fact. The Bible and God had to historically be in school in order to be thrown out as they have been. I'm not for teaching a religious class in school - Religion 101 "Why everyone should be a Baptist". I am for teaching the Bible in school - it in no way violates any portion of what our Founding Fathers documented. If it did, the Bible and God would have been thrown out of schools way back in the 1700's. I belive there is great societal benefit in the Bible and it's doctrine being taught to our young people. Think about what Jesus taught and said in Matt. 22:37-39 "Jesus said unto him, thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." He didn't teach people to go strap bombs to themselves and kill innocent people - he commanded us to love them like we love ourselves.

The Bible is full of practical daily living examples that strengthen and help society rather than tearing it down and hurting it. The story of David and Bathsheba comes to mind - can we go out and commit adultery if we choose to - yes. Will God forgive us - again YES. Here's the moral and individual application - look at the destruction that came upon David's home because of his sin. Did God forgive him - yes He did. But God's forgiveness doesn't erase consequences that come as a result from sin. Imagine teaching that to kids in school - you can choose to sin, and God will forgive you if you ask Him, but that won't undo the consequences that will come your way as a result of your sin. You could never convince me that teaching that in the public school would somehow make us a weaker society or violate any writings of our Founding Fathers. It would help build up a stronger and more respectful society.

I'll quit there as this is probably already the longest post in bowsite history :-)

Thanks for reading this guys,

--Mitch

When someone says freedom FROM religion, it means nobody - especially gov't - cannot force you to go to church on Sunday or anything else. In essence, freedom OF religion.

If anyone questions the reason for the Constitution and its Amendments, particularly the 2nd, watch some of the newer series on TV about the Revolutionary War. One is 'Sons of Liberty' the other is 'Turn: Washington's Spies'. Granted, they are fictional in content, but they are based on real people and real events, just not necessarily in the order portrayed and with some historical "embellishment". It will give you an idea of why...

Here's why - If there is a situation at a school, and there is one [or more] armed staff, when the police arrive and they see someone [staff] with a weapon, that person is as good as dead.

There are schools where staff are in fact armed, but there are typically rural and have long response times from LE.

I believe there will be a shift in more 'closed school campuses', more secure front entrances and eliminating exterior doors to classrooms [not required by code]

But, none of these deal with firearms, or mental health...

Carry on.

I'm sorry, but my kids will not be getting any religion at school. Period.

When is the last time you voted for a school bond ?

Additional security for schools be it guards, metal detectors, etc. would require additional funding. The passage of school bonds, property tax increase, perhaps paying more in state taxes to pay for this type of security in each and every school be it public, private or religious.

The big question is are you willing to pay for these additional expenses ?

:^}

If I want my child to be taught Baptist Doctrine, there are private schools that I need to send my kids to and I need to foot the total bill for that - agreed. We homeschooled our kids, footed the entire bill ourselves while still paying taxes to the local public schools even though we never used them. And I’m not griping - life is about choices and that’s what we chose to do.

Do I want other cults promoting their brand of “religion” in public school with no boundaries - absolutely not. I do believe there is room for teaching character traits, etc... from the Bible that do not push one denomination over another. Would there be administrative and other challenges/boundaries that would need to be clearly defined and worked out - yes and as parents you should have a say in your local school. I just don’t think throwing God and the Bible out are the right answers. It only weakens a society and the morality of it.

The writings and intents of the Founders have been horribly twisted when we use phrases like “separation of church and state” to be interpreted as no religion in schools or no manger scenes on public property, etc... that was not the intent of the separation clause - it’s to prevent any individual “church states” from being established.

Maybe I’m just a simple thinker, but if God and the Bible were both in schools when the Founders wrote our documents and the Bible and God were both still in school after those documents were ratified then the intent of the Founders was not to get God and the Bible out of schools. Some 150 years later we in our wisdom decided to twist their words/intents after they were in their graves and unable to defend themselves.

Hopefully that makes some logical sense of my positions.

If you don’t want “religion” in school - that’s fine, but that’s not the position of our Founders.

-Mitch

When Jesus's disciples asked him about the signs concerning the end of the world and His second coming in the 24th chapter of Matthew, He said this:

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Jesus then compares the last days just before His return to the days of Noah......(6th chapter of Genesis)

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

So........the earth was cleansed once before with water and the scriptures say it will be cleansed/burned again this time with fire, however that might occur.

I'm no preacher or scriptorian but hunters who spend a lot of time observing nature and witnessing species multiplying/creation and truly listening and observing things on the earth are better people for it. Although far from perfect, we tend to be better stewards on this earth contrary to how we're portrayed.

In the big picture, I'm afraid we probably can't turn the evil tide, but we can sure reach out to folks (at risk kids) in our sphere of influence and hopefully make a difference for a few of them.

#1) don't arm the teachers. A high percentage our teachers are vagina wearing gun ban enthusiasts, that includes some of the men. In most cases the gun intended to protect would be used against them.

#2 There were some fire alarm/drill comments that got me thinking, how many schools burn per year with the children in them? like none yet we practice that several times a year. I think the percentage of shootings is higher than fires, why are we not practicing for shootings?

Get rid of a fire drill and an earthquake drill and have two shooting drills? Would practicing for this save lives? We need to learn what disrupts shooters and stops the carnage and practice that. Hmmm

If you accompanied that drill with some professional armed guards you could place numerous countermeasures in place to combat the actions of the instigator.

I agree with others as to having some “specialized” trained guards. Just like we trained our soldiers for the new “urban combat”, armed guards would have special training for dealing with kids in school.

-Mitch

It involved them hiding in the classrooms and keeping tabs on the "stranger" inside the school with cameras, then the kids all bolt out the nearest door and run away and off school property when they are clear to do so.

Sad thing that it has to happen, but glad they think about it.

Today we got an email that the Sherriff was called to the high school to arrest a kid that had a 22lr bullet with him.

Why does it seem like there are less of these in Canada? We have semi-automatic rifles, we have a lot of mentally disturbed individuals, and all our young people play the same video games, and we have the same lack of parenting. We also have the same lack of God in society which is also going to hell in a handbasket.

Do many of these shootings happen at private schools? I am sure there is more to it than religion, but I have to think of the quote above: "If you want your children to learn religion at school, there are many choices of schools to send them to - just not the public ones ." From my recollection I don't know of any shootings that have happened at said schools. Just an observation of note.

Another question: If you were to have armed trained people in schools who literally established a presence - I wonder if the bullying would come down a little? I think of the short story told above (I can't remember who) talked about his son getting pushed around. I have a hard time picturing someone pushing another student around when there is an armed guard that looks like he means business a few yards away. Young $hit disturbers generally tend to tuck their penis back in their pants when a real piece of authority is close by. May not help with the cyber stuff but if you can cut it down it wouldn't hurt.

This would be a very slippery, Orwellian slope. Who decides who is "mentally competent to buy a firearm"? We already went down this road with the Obama administration trying to prevent older Vets from owning a gun, and requiring doctors to ask patients if there is a gun in the house.

question #1 where are we

We are in a society now where kids want to kill other kids in schools. We have a society that values human life less than it every has in this country. Specifically with schools, they are gun free zones with little security to stop people from walking onto campus or carrying guns in.

Look at the stats, AR15's are not used in 99% of crimes, in 2% of school shootings if I remember the stats correctly. Handguns are the choice, and most of these people have broken laws to get them. Written words don't stop people.

question #2 where to go

I'll paint several sides. I think we all agree better, more accurate up to date background checks would help some. Early detection would help. FBI and authorities investigating would help. They failed in this multiple times, but they succeed too. Its a job we all expect 100% but they're getting better and will. Nobody wants kids with guns, thats why we have so many laws against it yet its the under 18 age group that's doing the bulk of the school shootings. I think everyone wants hard punishments for violent crimes, as a deterrent.

what we do not agree one

One side says ban AR15 type weapons. Look, its a scary looking semi-auto gun, you can get them in many shapes and sizes and calibers. The .223 isn't a powerful round comparing to others. Ruger makes several high capacity guns that look normal, just add bigger clip. This side ignores that AR15's aren't used in crimes or schools much, banning them would have very little impact as the people wanting to do these things would simply get other guns. Second worse shooting ever? Virginia Tech - a .22 and a 9mm handgun, so don't think only AR's are capable of mass damage. They're not.If I wanted to stop drunk driving, would I focus on banning the automobile used in 1% of all drunk driving incidents? Background check alcohol purchases?

One side says ban all guns. Well, that would take decades or lobbying to somehow get the votes in Congress to do it, much less lawsuits and the SC who's already ruled on individual rights etc. Its unrealistic and not only that, it doesn't change the fact that criminals are going to do violent things. Obama lied, other countries have violence problems, the weapon isn't the problem, the people are.

One side says that - the choice of weapon isn't the problem. People are breaking dozens of laws to get guns, use guns and passing laws that only affect law abiding does not work. It never has. Security fencing/entrances to make it hard for people just to walk onto school campuses helps stop the criminal if he's 15, 19, carrying a handgun, a rifle, an adult, a man or woman, legally owning the gun or having just stolen it ..... it impacts them all. Armed guards who will engage these shooters if it starts or stops then BEFORE it starts ..... that's essential.

We had one bad federal building bombing in OKC and what happened? You know what happened - armed guards were installed. Now, I don't know about you, but my kids are more important than a federal building.

The Federal Protective Service (FPS) is the police division of the National Protection and Programs Directorate of the United States Department of Homeland Security.[2] FPS is "the federal agency charged with protecting and delivering integrated law enforcement and security services to facilities owned or leased by the General Services Administration (GSA)"—over 9,000 buildings—and their occupants. FPS contracts with private security firms to provide 13,000 contract Armed Protective Security Officers (PSO) providing access control and security response within federal buildings. These PSOs are not federal law enforcement but private security employees trained by FPS

You want to do something? Do something that can actually work. Registration will not stop one crime from happening. AR15 bans will not keep anyone from committing a shooting or crime. Armed citizens literally save lives, they prevent crimes, rape, murders, robberies, they prevent crimes .... guns are the very reason so many places are secure, that and tight security. Think of any large corporations/business, even many smaller ones. Badge scans, security fences, gated compounds, cameras everywhere ..... common sense safety and security measures few schools have.

https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm

Its a pro-gun site, the numbers are there as are references. GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM

One more thing. It baffles me that people are so eager to attack guns. Let me explain why.

DUI accounts for 10,000 deaths every year. How many kids are killed?

Cigarette smoking is responsible for more than 480,000 deaths per year in the United States, including more than 41,000 deaths resulting from secondhand smoke exposure. Since 1964, approximately 2,500,000 nonsmokers have died from health problems caused by exposure to secondhand smoke. I challenge each of you to google how many kids die from second hand smoke.

In 2010, there were an estimated 5,419,000 automobile crashes, 30,296 of with fatalities, killing 32,999, and injuring 2,239,000.[2] About 2,000 children under 16 die every year in traffic collisions

Alcohol-Induced Deaths 33,000 or so.

2014 Data Detailing Drug-Induced Deaths, Breaking Out Specific Data for Prescription Analgesics and Heroin, as Reported by the CDC5

Drug Overdose Total 47,055

Deaths Involving Pharmaceutical Opioid Analgesics 18,893

Deaths Involving Heroin 10,574

Read the above numbers again. All the above so we can drive a car and smoke cigarettes and have our drugs. The above is the price society pays - in people dying. Not only that, the above are not Rights ... no right to drive a car, no right to smoke or take drugs.

Tell me why none of the above is worthy or banning or severely restricting and why ya'll are not burning up message boards and forums and reaching out to make a difference ? I've got the answer, and you will not like it .......... you simply don't care.

We have common sense laws on driving, smoking, drugs ....... and if people ignore those and kill other people through DUI incidents, second hand smoke and drug incidents? Meh ...... that's just us having a free society isn't it ?

They are not noting that the patient says "Yes, 2 glock 9mm's, a browing A5 12ga and 2 HR 20ga single shots" just that the person says: "yes" to the gun question.

To my understanding, the aim is to help screen out some dangerous situations. Say a patient has a spouse that drinks a ton or does meth (or both), and they have guns... further questions RE safety in the household may be used to investigate further to make sure domestic abuse or child abuse is going on... Or, that someone who may present with a mental illness is not likely to go off on themselves or others... AND, because some medications for various illnesses could lead to short term mental health issues.

I'm not a provider, just married to one - so that's second hand from listening to lots of post work debriefs about the crazy stuff she sees every day...

Another Catch 22 question might be, "Have you ever lied to your doctor?"

;-)

Me- “nope” (they in the garage) :)

All truth :)

EMR is a PITA in some ways, but overall could be a life saver in the case of accidents or ER visits for illness etc. Definitely ensures quality of care could be sustained. Like anything with an info train, put it in the wrong hands (Ins Co's for example) and it could be used for bad.

Seems those are the general reasons (those in my other post and here) for the gun question and several of the others (drugs, alcohol etc).

Ban progressive, liberal politics and fix the problem.

I'm now watching a 17 year old girl who has never held a firearm preaching at the FL state capitol, acting as a firearms expert. We now need to ban any firearms with more that "400 foot-pounds of energy" because all you need for self defense is 400 foot-pounds and the AR has "three times that amount". Good to know we have real experts now trying to define the intent of the Second Amendment..

I will also add social programming as well.

Yes.

We have some smart, perceptive folks over here. Many have graduated eighth grade!

;-)

I took my AR to the rifle range yesterday after work. Guess what? It DIDN'T kill anybody! ;-)

I had allowed my NRA membership to expire. Now after watching and listening to that angry, irrational mob in that auditorium, my check is going in today.

I will briefly bring up school bombings. None have happened yet, but yesterday a 17 yr old was arrested for a bomb threat at my daughter's high school, same place where a handful of lockdowns have happened over the last few weeks ever since a local shooting happened in a nearby community school.

The behavior needs to change. Lately, policy in public education has a lot of kids in a whirlwind as we see more and more comments made relative to progressive indoctrination and that flame is fanned by the political nonsense of the "adult" world.

One way to fix it, but most are terrorfied to hear it...

Why doesn't everybody go cut their cell phones in half so nobody ever dies from texting and driving, maybe even smash all the liquor on the driveway, and bend all their knives into a noodle.

#notmycellphone

I saw some kids carrying signs that read " Your Hobby is NOT Worth My Life!".

But apparently that text about meeting for appy's IS worth someone's life.

And yup, there’s the line of women, gleaming bare skin all blazing away with full auto “assault” rifles.

Anti-gun , anti- sexist Hollywood approved and applauded!

So weird they can promote that only huge fire power can stop huge evil, then spew the opposite for real society . It truly is a makebelieve world.

Whoa Matt, let's not take this too far. Guns are one thing, but this is over the line:)

I haven't even gotten into the likely low level of training, compared to professional police or similar. The possibility of kids getting possession of a firearm (think back to when your kids were small and some of the things they dug out of hiding places you never thought they would find and multiply that by 25 for the number of kids in a classroom). It is a terrible accident that will happen. There was a school based police officer in one of the Twin Cities suburbs recently who had a student stick his finger into the police officers holster and fire his handgun while he was sitting on a chair talking to some kids. Luckily, very luckily, no one was injured. Anyone who has kids knows that, regarding having kids around, if it can happen it will. It's the nature of the beast.

If someone is armed in a school it should be a professional, highly trained to handle these situations and solely dedicated to that task. Not a highly trained teacher in teaching, that is poorly trained in stress management and gun-handling.

These are teenagers, not trained Jihadists. They are little butthurt pussies, and they certainly won't walk in to a school with intent to shoot, if they think there is any chance of a target being painted on them. Especially if they are unsure of where the threat might come from (undisclosed concealed carry).

What would've happened if the teacher who threw himself in front of a group of kids had instead pulled out a concealed 40 S&W with safety slugs in it?

Chances are the shooter would've wet himself because now he ain't holding all the cards.

An armed educator would not need to leave and hunt. They just need to defend their classroom...

Almost all the recent mass shootings, the shooter has been wearing body armour, and this kid had a gas mask on. Pretty easy to identify the shooter in that scenario.

And that teacher would most likely still be dead. First off, the extreme pressure would probably reduce his accuracy to zero, ask any police officer that has much more training what happens in a real-time gunfire exchange. And it still is bringing a pistol to a rifle fight. I would rather have that rifle if I was forced to be there.

Arming teachers is an exceedingly bad idea and a non-starter for a realistic, workable solution to this.

And what makes you think an adolescent will be that much better than an adult that has training? The video game they played? What made this kid run the way he did after the fact? Scared, that's why...

I'll say it again. 99% of teachers did not become teachers to volunteer to get into a life-threatening gun fight. You may find a rare school where it is possible, but it isn't a broad solution.

HDE, the Florida shooter is an odd one. He was brave enough to KILL 17 kids (how many did he injure? I don't think I have heard from any place?) before he "ran away". Most of these shooters are committed to the point of suicide. That is why they would be able to take out that teacher and not run away.

Also, Schools have their on-site training - Some call it 'Code 99'. If that alarm is sent, teachers have the ability to lock their classroom doors - from the inside - [Security Function Locks] and they cover the window in the classroom door, move the students to the safest place in the room and wait for LE to clear the site.

Since last week, some school districts have already met with the local police and made an agreement that when the fire alarm is pulled, TWO police cars will show up at the school along with the fire truck.

There is a big issue when staff/students are trained to exit the blg when the fire alarm is pulled, when in fact there isnt a fire because they are sitting ducks - like last week.

I could foresee an alternate alarm systems installed in schools - in parallel with the F/A - to indicate a problem other than fire notification.

Secure Main Entries / Security Function Classroom Locks / 911 notification [other than F/A] / Possible CC for certain trained staff are just some of the steps that can be taken to safeguard a school

But all those things cost money. Will you support your local school if they ask for funding?

Think DFW at Christmas with multiple delayed flights. Not sure I want my kids standing around waiting to go inside when some maniac decides to plow through them with a 3/4 ton diesel...

Now let's discuss cost to install. Using the 100k schools listed above @ $25k each is $2.5 billion and we haven't even added in maintenance yet. How many school districts can afford that?

There are no easy solutions and to jump out right now with a "problem solved" approach is wreckless at best.

Discussing "GUN CONTROL!" today is idiotic. The real problem IS NOT being addressed.

There are some fine teachers in this country and some sacrifice a lot to do what they do but in no way would I ever want my kids teachers armed. That's like asking your dentist to do heart surgery on you.

Knowing a scattered couple teachers that cc is a completely different situation than having 20 % of teachers everywhere voluntarily cc. It is not going to work like that in 99% of schools and relying on that as your plan to make all schools safe is pie-in-the-sky. I've been there and know teachers. Ain't happening.

Funny thing is that the actual risk of a student getting shot at a school is about 10x LESS than getting hit by lightening. So.....is all of this just a big knee-jerk, or not? I don't know everything, but, if this country does decide to make this a priority, I do know for certain that trying to arm a significant % of teachers and relying on that to safeguard our schools is wishful thinking. There are other options that could work in ALL 100,000 US schools, as I noted above and as cnelk listed above. I'll ask Cnelks question again for everyone, "Will you support your local school if they ask for funding?"

Now you just have to decide what “It” is. Or all the “It’s”.

God bless, Steve

It isn't pretty. It won't be easy. It won't be cheap. But, we can agree it is doable and, it is the ONLY way to prevent this from happening. Enough of the excuses have been heard. Let's fix it man. Let's quit saying it is too hard. There are many answers out there in order to make these important things happen in EVERY single public school. The only thing left is to quit making excuses and do it.

I'm no teacher nor am I a genius. But, it doesn't require that in order to get this right. Not one single infringement on the 2nd or 4th amendment required. And, it will get the desired results. What else needs to be said?

If you think I'm wrong about how many teachers would carry (or even be allowed to carry because the vast majority of school boards do not allow employees to carry, even in states that allow it) here is some factual back-up. Colorado has been mentioned above. There are approximately 60,000 teachers and admin/staff in Colorado. There are about 100 teachers statewide that actually carry-see attached link. That's well below 1%. So, as I said above, the current story being pushed about having 20% (or even more, at one point Trump said there would be 40%!) of all school employees ccing is a false narrative that does nothing to actually solve this problem. Armed teachers can be a part of it, but they aren't going to more than a small part of it, and for politicians to promote it otherwise and use it as a deflection to avoid doing other more viable options (like funding to build controlled access), too, is disingenuous in the extreme. I agree, lets stop the excuses and admit this. And not let our politicians blow smoke up our a.. about what is realistic.

JTV, you do realize there are about 4,000 schools and over 100,000 teachers in over 1,000 different districts in Ohio alone, and that is only one of the 12 states? Going to need a lot more sign-ups. A LOT more.

Yes, one person my fail at the moment of truth, so that's why we need backup. If a person also knows that they are not alone in a situation like that they may be less likely to fail the moment should it arise. "Strength in numbers"

While thinking about whether more armed guard's or armed teachers would help this morning, that question hit me as important. If the shooter doesnt care if they live or die, a turret mounted mini gun on each corner of the school building is neutral or a positive in the shooters eye. They clearly are not thinking "correctly" regardless, so when we suppose increased armaments at a school would dissuade one from attacking, are we just applying our sane, rational thinking pattern and missing the irrational pattern the shooter is using? Got me curious thinking about that.

Think about what this would require of all schools. Arming all or a percentage of teachers who may be or may not become proficient with a weapon especially in a high stress situation.

Heck, our Law Enforcement isn't or has not proven to be very proficient under duress. Just look at the amount of "shots fired" and the number of "hits" in comparison to shots fired in similar circumstances !

How would anyone going into this high stress situation be able to identify friend from foe, to shoot accurately, to not do additional harm ? i.e. Law Enforcement, would now have additional people (teacher's) with weapons !

I for one would not want my children, grand children or any child exposed to the "CROSSFIRE" of the shooter, of teacher's, of Law Enforcement.

Common sense is required as part of any solution.

Especially this one.

Beyond the large societal malaise that motivates some goblin to commit these atrocities,

We now know that the armed officer did not enter the school to engage the shooter and waited outside for several minutes listening to the shooting!

The local police had been alerted many times (>20) over several years about the shooter but did nothing

The FBI was alerted many times about the shooter by concerned citizens but did nothing

Is the logical response to hold law enforcement agencies accountable, punish the responsible and implement tougher procedures and penalties for systemic failings of the institutions that exist to protect us?

Or is it eliminating a type of weapon for cosmetic purposes, infringe on the 2nd Amendment and vilify millions of NRA members?

Sad, sad, sad

I’m not proposing half the schools be protected while the others aren’t. I’m saying I agree with Big Bear when he made that claim to prove that everyone knows protecting our schools with the same degree we protect anything else of importance will work. The reason I did so was your position was confusing. There is no need to tell everyone how hard it is going to be. We aren’t dumb. There is no need to say each school will have its own variables. We know that two. We don’t need to hear how some teachers would want or be effective as armed guards. That is something relevant to all the population. We know that.

I’m just tired of discussing this like it’s a hard subject. We are a week behind. I’m tired of hearing how banning a firearm is the right thing to do. And, I’m tired of waiting instead of acting. Excuses and misguided policy will only ensure this keeps happening. I want that changed and will gyration anyone who implies differently. God Bless men

I want specially trained police who know how to deal with kids to be in all schools. Take the funding from the military I don't care. This is not going to stop and it's going to get worse before better if we don't get armed police in the schools.

No rent-a-cops, no retired folks - real, trained police.

I said the idea of arming teachers has many flaws, and it does as I listed above. I think you are so focused on getting teachers armed that you are taking my criticism of it and wrongly transferring that to the idea that I must not want to protect schools since I don't agree with your sole focus. Take your blinders off and look at this purely from a school safety standpoint only rather than involving gun-rights. I'll condense what I said:

1. Teachers would make poor armed guards for many reasons listed above, and doing so conflicts with their primary responsibility and duty of care to keep their kids safe. There are better and more universal alternatives that we should be focusing our energy on instead of this false narrative.

2. You will never get enough teachers to carry to make them any more than a very small part of keeping ALL schools safe. Colorado right now has 100 armed teachers out of 60,000. JTV's link provided additional evidence - it says there are 1,000 armed teachers over 12 states that have at least 10,000 schools, and probably more as I am erring on the low side. That is one armed teacher for every 10 schools. Is that going to protect ALL schools? There isn't going to be a huge rush of teachers/staff to carry from this last tragedy. Most teachers/staff that will do it (cc) have already done so after the earlier shootings like Newtown. Teachers have been living this for 20 years and the latest shooting isn't a shock to their conscience. They have been there, done that and got the t-shirt already. However, the narrative being pushed by politicians is that, hey, we will arm 20-40% of teachers and that will solve the problem. They know that is a lie and it is only being done as a smoke-screen to occupy people until the story fades away. And again, nothing constructive will be accomplished. I have researched and presented you with facts and inside knowledge to back up my statements. Go ahead and do some research and prove to me that I am wrong.

3. What you interpret as my flipping from being against arming teachers to suddenly agreeing with it is my acknowledgement that there will be some armed teachers out there, regardless if I think it is a poor substitute for much better alternatives.

4. In a nutshell, the only approach that will really work to keep ALL of our schools safe is to deny any shooters from ever getting into a school. Once they are in we have lost the battle and there will be bodies. That's why I recommend focusing on upgrading schools with limited, monitored entrances and use dedicated, trained security. This is exactly what Israel does - see attached link.

I really think you and I are on the same page with this. I just don't think this latest quick fix is anything more than smoke and mirrors. There are much better options. I want schools safe - ALL schools.

WV is angry at teachers. That anger is misguided. The only decisionmakers that count regarding this are local school boards, regardless of any federal or state laws, etc. Over 90% of school boards, nationwide, do not allow guns in their schools and therefore, teachers to be armed. Even Texas only has 15% of their school boards that allow teachers to be armed. That isn't going to change because there are very valid reasons why. If you feel strongly about this you should go to your next local school board meeting and ask why teachers aren't armed in our schools. They will tell you the reasons why are exactly what I have posted above, with the likely loss of liability and unemployment insurance as the biggest one. You can't operate without insurance.

You might also ask your elected politicians who are pushing this why they are implying that this can be done when it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of ever becoming reality. They know this, or at least they should and if they don't you should vote them out of office for being stunningly incompetent, and are only doing it to politicize it and further divide the people of this country when we are already polarized to the point of gridlock. I'm sick of nothing getting done in Washington. In other words, they are playing us like a fiddle for their own gain and nothing constructive to us.

Listen to this guy. It is the new reality in which we live and a great start on how to fix this.

Lets compare securing schools to securing airplanes. It is essentially the same situation. 1. There is an enclosed space with crowded targets who can't escape. 2. There are people who want to, on rare occasions, want to kill those people. 3. People are regularly going into and out of these spaces 4. We need to stop people from getting killed 5. There are multiple people assisting the targets continuously while they are in the space. 6. Those assistants are continuously performing other duties and have a duty of care of their passengers/students 7. Most of those assistants are women who, generally (no hate for this please, I'm just stating a general fact, always a few exceptions), have much less experience with firearms or have a desire to do so.

So, why don't we arm the flight attendants? Instead, we put a large effort into KEEPING THESE KILLERS FROM EVER GETTING ON THE PLANE, first. An extraordinarily large effort. This is the primary battle. If it fails, we have highly trained law enforcement, sky marshalls, on the plane, whose sole purpose is to stop the intruder, and who aren't distracted by other duties or responsibilities. They can go into action instantly, with a highly trained focus and can go anywhere in a moment.

The reasons flight attendants aren't armed, even though doing so would fufill the same reasons now given for arming teachers; they are already there, they love their charges (this is the best one I have heard, lol), and it wouldn't cost nearly as much as having separate security. The reasons they aren't are the same as I have given above: 1. They aren't trained to anything close to what a professional is. 2. The risk of accidental shootings is real and probable. I have found, already, four instances of accidental shootings in schools while I was doing research the last couple days. 3. They are distracted and have responsibilities that conflict with being an armed guard, which results in their being a poor choice for being an armed guard. 4. However, the big one is that the airlines (school boards) would NEVER let this happen because their insurance carriers would go bezerk and either cancel their insurance or charge huge premiums. There is a reason they would do that - because it is an accident waiting to happen and involves much more RISK.

WV, does your local school district allow teachers to be armed? You should go ask why. You should also email Delta and United and tell them you want the flight attendants armed on your flights and ask them why they don't do that. Lets put our energy into options that are realistic and will actually be able to be done.

This is funny. Teachers already have more skin in this game than most people outside of law enforcement and public safety will ever be responsible for or actually do. Those teachers at past school shootings ignored their self-preservation instincts, stayed with their classes to keep them safe and out of sight, keep quiet and calm them down. They did that because THAT is their job. I don't remember a single teacher abandoning their room and running outside away from them and saving their ass while leaving their kids hanging. Remember, more than half of the students in schools are 12 or younger. I do remember seeing many videos of office shootings with people saving their ass without a thought of anyone else. Why didn't they stay in the building, at a personal risk of death, to make sure everyone is out before they go out? Teachers did that exact thing. Maybe we should only allow Navy SEALs, Green Berets, and Marines to be teachers since the current crop of teachers apparently don't do enough.

I'm done here.

Steve, tell me if your local school district allows armed teachers. Why don't they do that? If you tell me your town I can find out for you.

Find out when the board meetings are, and sign up for public comment. Most school boards give about 3 mins for each person to speak publicly.

Make your 3 mins count.

I know a lot of teachers. Some, inexplicably to me, would rather die and let their kids die than exercise a right they and every law abiding citizen have the minute they step 1000' off campus. Others are very much in favor of having recourse available. It's time to restore the natural rights of the latter.

An Israeli stye ban - or any other variety ban - will not work. It will only cause a war.

"However, if I had a gun, about 100 kids would have died nationwide in the years before in accidental classroom shootings already."

I would like to hear more about these please.

Doors can be breached. And the armed security guard, he was the first one taken out. Shooter studied past shootings, and current protocols.

“You don't get to make up your scenario in a vacuum. You have to accept all the other outcomes.”

Indeed.

But suddenly we have the funds to train and arm teachers, keep them updated with those skills, and provide funding to staff additional security etc.

I can see how the teacher arming may work. If it happened, it would be really interesting when those first school budgets hit communities... Would people freak, or would people say: "Yup, it's worth the $"?

I'm not sure of what the best answer here is. It feels like the extreme's in both directions have beliefs... which makes me think the truth is in the middle. I'd love to see some national debate there. The financial part is a part of the discussion I don't hear people talking about - or have missed in the conversation.

As for those claiming it will be horrible, please realize that 8 states have no regulation preventing CC by teachers, and several districts have armed staff.

Lastly, it is absurd to think that a mature adult can not handle themselves in a stressful situation.

For those saying that a trained staff does not know what to do, then are you willing to have the schools not provide CPR or First Aide? Are you willing to take AED from all schools? I mean after all that would be a much better tool used by a doctor or Paramedic and not a teacher, who is so incompetent they can not learn any skills that can help students.

Do you want us to remove all fire extinguishers, after all fires are better fought by firemen...

In my school my classroom and 2 other classrooms sit over 300 yards away above the main campus. If a shooter wanted to enter here, they would be done shooting everyone in the 3 classrooms before anyone else really even knows what is happening. Our school resource office at a best case scenario will take 2-3 minutes to respond if I can get a hold of him directly. That is the officer on campus...

How does making me helpless help anyone if the worse case scenario happens? How is it I am expected to carry both CPR and First certification along with an IED training every year, but not be expected to handle myself in an appropriate manner.

It is pretty simple, do you believe that citizens have a right to self defense? You either believe in your right to CC or not. You can not support CC by individuals in the community but then at the same time bar CC from teachers just because they are in a certain place. If you can not support CC by teacher, then you can not support CC at all and should be calling for CC to stop.

He not only dropped the ball, he handed it to the opposition and let him walk into end zone.

Chipper jones who has his own bowhunting show has come out and said, well I let his quote speak for him. "I believe in our Constitutional right to bear arms and protect ourselves,” Jones said. “But I do not believe there is any need for civilians to own assault rifles. I just don’t. “I would like to see something (new legislation) happen. I liken it to drugs – you’re not going to get rid of all the guns. But AR-15s and AK-47s and all this kind of stuff – they belong in the hands of soldiers. Those belong in the hands of people who know how to operate them, and whose lives depend on them operating them. Not with civilians. I have no problem with hunting rifles and shotguns and pistols and what-not. But I’m totally against civilians having those kinds of automatic and semi-automatic weapons.” Can't get any more anti gun than that, so I don't think he needs to be supported by hunters, period. What a idiot, he should learn what the 2nd amendment is really about.

I haven't found anything on accidental school shooting deaths related to concealed carry?

Not sure how to go about googling how you carrying a firearm in a classroom would have resulted in 100 accidental deaths by now?

These guys aren’t NRA members or even particularly good marksman. Doesn’t take any skill or courage to spray a crowd from a few feet away.

I’m all for additional, sworn, trained, competent, professional law officers in schools. I’ll gladly pay the additional tax if it’ll protect my kid.

Currently, there are about 3 million people carrying daily in this country - see link towards bottom of my posts. Trump is proposing to add anywhere from 750,000 to 1,500,000 additional teachers to carrying- anywhere from a 25 to 50% increase, nationwide. In 2013 alone there were 505 people killed (see attached link) in accidental gun discharges. I am assuming a good percentage of those are handgun related. Based on the 25-50% increase in conceal carry numbers proposed by this I ballparked additional deaths due to this at 100. Not perfectly scientific but more than a WAG.

But, even if you cut that number in half or even in a quarter, THERE WILL BE MORE DEATHS FROM ADDITIONAL HANDGUNS IN SCHOOLS THAN WE EVER WILL HAVE FROM MASS SHOOTINGS! And this doesn't' even take into account the much larger number of kids/teachers wounded in accidental shootings and the accidental gun discharges where, thank God, no one gets injured or killed. Every incident is going to horrify parents to some degree.

It also doesn't take into account that the environment that school conceal carriers operate in is much more risky than conceal carrying down a street or at a ball game or at home, due to the kids being kids. My wife has kids go through her desk and cabinets without her permission every year. Do you think the mostly women teachers will be carrying a handgun on their hip with a crowd of 3rd graders constantly around them or jostling them, etc.? Remember the story I told you of the police resource officer here in MN that had a kid stick his finger in his holster while the cop was talking to some kids, and pull the officers trigger (See that link below, too)? Again, luckily no one was hurt or killed. But it is going to happen, and regularly if there are 1.5 million handguns out there in schools, compared to the tiny number now. Someone above said they don't like the details, but as always, the devil is in those details. Always are.

The politicians who are pushing this know all of this, or at least they should, and are only doing it to divide us on a subject that should be completely above the cesspool of politics. Just sayin'.

OK, now I really, really am done. I don't know what else I can add to this discussion to help inform the people who actually want to listen.

I agree 100%.

Do you support that you have aright to keep and have fire arms?

Why is it that the same teacher who can legally carry for protection at the park, the store, the gas station, movie theater, can not be trusted to do so at school?

Looking through your list of crap links. You really have only 2 cases that show any sort accidental discharge in a school setting.

You failed entirely to prove your point. I read through all the links. Where was a student shot and killed by a CC? Where was a student injured by a negligent discharge? How many students in those schools were also killed by a mass shooting? In one link you use it was a CC who was at taco bell that just happened to be near a school campus.

Sorry but nothing in any of your links proves that the students are in great danger by having trained and prepared staff.

You really used the Huffington post?

Sorry but you are looking for the lefts wet dream mythical unicorn and are failing. You also have a small handful of incidents but are also ignoring the mass amount of crime prevention/response that CC do through out this country.

Are you against all CC? If not how can you say I am safe and licensed to carry in my community but not at my workplace?

You can't carry anywhere you want right now. Try carrying onto a plane? Why can't you do that? Is it because the "lefts mythical unicorn" is standing in your way? No, the risk of you having that gun on a plane is a greater risk than the airlines are going to accept to keep their passengers safe from those terrorists trying to kill you and they handle the risk in better ways. Try carrying in a government building. Or most places that serve alcohol. Or any business that says, no guns allowed... etc. etc. There are many restrictions on your right to conceal-carry already.

A lawyer, recently, stated a fact that of all of our "rights", the only one that is not subject to restrictions is the right of citizenship. There appears to be a problem with what you are posting above. Why don't you check with a constitutional lawyer to see if that is mythical unicorn of the left.

Personally, what I believe is not applicable to this issue. But I'll tell you anyway and you will be scratching your head because you want everyone to be in a box, either "for it or against it". Dumbest thing anyone has ever said.

I absolutely support concealed carry, where it can be done. I grew up hunting all my life, and hope I will until the day I die. When I retire in a couple years that is what I plan on doing to my heart's content. I own guns and never want to lose them. I have hunting buddies that have cc permits and I think that is great. I don't cc because I really don't have an interest in handguns. I'm more of a rifle and shotgun fan. I'm not a liberal, but I could be and it wouldn't change a single thing about me. Do you think there are no liberal gun owners or conceal carriers? There are tens of millions of people like me out there.

You think my points above are crap. Too bad. I think your entire post is crap. Show me with actual rational arguments how multiplying the number of guns in schools by 10,000, or more, compared to what it is now will be perfectly safe and no one will be killed or injured. That doesn't happen outside of schools. Why would expect it to be that way in schools when that environment is much more ripe for accidents than the outside world actually.

Come back when you can have a reasonable discussion and not throw insults.

I want trained police who deal with kids. NO ONE else protecting my kids. Take the funding from wherever they need to because schools are sitting ducks and everyone knows it.

We should have done this decades ago.

I think you better retract the above message directed toward me - 'coelker' maybe???

PS. dont let emotion involve your keyboard skills

'coelker' maybe??

I got post 420!!! Kinda reminds me of another classic thread :)

Only in Boulder = 10 sq miles surrounded by reality

After 29 years in law enforcement we went through countless hours of active shooter training. .......... At first they said the first officer on scene was to secure the area and wait for backup and go in as a team. ..... Almost immediately the training changed to the first on the scene - go in and neutralize the threat ASAP.

Yes there are issues with having teachers armed. ....We discussed (at length) about having teachers armed and what may happen when LE officers arrived, as we are trained to engage first person we see carrying a gun. So the teacher would not only need to undergo firearms training but would also need to be somehow identified in a shooting incident.

My thought is if a teacher can save "even" one life by carrying - I'm all for it, as I believe all parents would be.

When you say let teachers carry that's what you are saying.

I totally disagree. Everyone thinks they are Clint Eastwood until they aren't. I think being a cop is a LOT harder and takes a lot of repetitive and regular training.

Then again when summer roles around why don't we just throw teachers into a 3 month boot camp every year. I'm sure that's all they need.

If you add 750,000 or more handguns to a school environment you should get ready to respond to a few more. It will be much more likely you will have to do that than respond to a mass shooter.

I know we all have our own opinions. And, we base them off what we know. But, it is beyond ridiculous to suggest that willing teachers should not be trained and act as a third shield to any and all who try to come in a school and shoot the children. Everyone for the most part agrees with that.

You have made some valid points, but also are coming up with several excuses why teachers should not carry - and I agree ONLY those teachers that want (qualify) to carrying a weapon shall have that opportunity.

Let me ask you this. If you were teaching a class and the lock down was initiated with an active shooter (the real deal here) wouldn't you feel better if you at least had the opportunity to stop the threat - i.e. save just one student (and most likely many many more). Especially someone such as yourself who, as it sounds, you are very capable of handling firearms. I'm not saying you even have to leave the class room - just be able to be ready if the shooter breaches your class room.

One more question ..... if everything (insurance, liability, etc., etc., etc.) was settled and teachers were allowed to carry, would you?

Also, if a teacher doesn't leave her (because most teachers are female) classroom, which they can't (abandon their students), what if the shooter only goes to the other classrooms, kills some students and then is killed by police? Did we save anyone?

As I said before, the devil is in the details. Everyone is looking for the one big, quick fix but that is rarely the best thing to do. These decisions need to be based on cold, hard facts and thought out with all other consequences factored in. This is what I do for a living - I analyze things, find out problems and figure out the best solutions. Many times I have to deal with people who don't want to hear what I say because they want the answer to be different and it isn't what they feel is right. But facts are more important than feelings or emotion, if you actually want a good solution. Kind of like here, at the moment on Bowsite, lol.

You see, these things you call excuses are not actually that. They are other facts about this issue. What if a solution to a problem is worse than the problem? Do you keep doing it anyway, or do you stop (or not do it at all if you have done your homework) and look for a better solution? What if more people die from putting more guns in schools than were actually saved from mass shootings? Those guns are going to be in schools, every day for many, many, many years before they may have to be used if their school wins the psychopath lottery and they get a visit. And every minute they are in that school their is a risk that an accident could happen. I don't know about you, but I know where I would bet if I had to bet on how some kids are going to die in a typical school. That may sound hard and cruel, but it is the truth.

Mass shootings are extraordinarily rare, in the big picture. Much, much more rare than accidental shootings would be if we had significant numbers of firearms put into schools. I've shown above that, very likely, more death and injuries would happen, nationwide, than are actually killed in mass shootings. So, should we still do it? It may make you feel good that we are doing something, but what about at the end of the year when we tally up how many accidental deaths there are and compare them to how many mass shooting deaths we had, and accidental deaths won the ballgame, and keep winning the next game and next?

So, to answer your question if I would approve of armed teachers if all other things could be controlled? I need to add another; that you guarantee that there will be no injuries or fatalities from any gun in any school ever. Yeah, then it would be a good solution. But it a nice, meaningless hypothetical from la-la land. It comes from the same place that says police are always shown respect and everyone is 100% helpful, all the time. I do wish we lived in that land, but we don't. Have a good night. I'm going to have a beer and go to bed after some relaxing arrow maintenance that I need to do. Hog hunt coming up in a couple weeks.

One last question for you now, Bob, since you are in law enforcement and should have access to crime data. What happens more frequently, accidental firearms injuries/deaths (you really have never encountered, nor any police officer you have ever known, in 29 years, an accidental shooting? Hard to believe.), or mass shootings at schools? How much more or less frequent are they? Can anyone else answer that?

Edit : Tasers that shoot are available to non LEO - see link https://www.stun-gun-defense-products.com/buy-stun-gun/TASER-Versus-Stun-Gun.html Maybe we should make LEO level, multi-shot tasers available to school personnel?

I guarantee you will have a much higher buy-in from willing teachers compared to a handgun, there won't be any accidental deaths or wounding, insurance won't be nearly the problem that handguns would be.

I also believe, with a school of a couple of thousand students, if you have one or two entrances with screening, you're simply going to create choke points with greater numbers of targets that will be ripe for any variety of mayhem.

You cite Utah, out of curiosity, just how many mass school shooting have occurred in Utah? How many students have been accidentally shot?

Yes it is a mythical unicorn you are looking for as the shear data from any creditable source shows that CC permit holders are extremely safe, they have the single lowest crime rate of virtually any demographic you can produce.

You have friends that CC, do you trust them to CC? If so why do you trust them to CC? Why is it OK for them to be around your family at the restaurant but not a basketball game in the gym?

As for me being able to carry virtually any place, in my home state I can carry anyplace except for government buildings with metal detectors armed guards and schools...

In my 18 years in school we NEVER had a lockdown or heard of a school shooter, even though everybody had access to their own or parents guns. We brought guns to school.

People had "mental health issues" back then too. Kids were bullied and some had depression.

The people studying this phenomenon need to take a step back, quit blaming guns, bullying, etc.. and start quantifying all of the variables that HAVE changed which may trigger these events.

But then that might vilify the Libs sacred cows - over-medication with antidepressants, absentee single parent households with no guidance, an educational system that teaches "everyone is a victim", violent Hollywood, violent video games, violent music, ubiquitous reinforcement of anti-hero status by the 24-7 media and social media.

In our town a sick animal was just convicted of raping and violently murdering a young girl and videoing the whole thing on his cell phone. When they arrested him he was watching the video on his phone in a restaurant. No semi-automatic weapon was involved, and nobody is blaming the knife or the cell phone...

But Woods Walker has it right............................................DON'T bring a TAZER to a GUNfight! (even one that shoots! ;-)

Except your not offering facts. Your offering your own opinion and are pissed 'cause folks won't accept it as fact. You don't want teachers armed because of accidents or weapon retention. I can find instance after instance of cops NOT retaining their weapon, loosing their weapon, accidental shooting, etc....

And your solution?

Tasers. AYFKM!!! Basically a single use weapon, that has many documented occurrences of not being effective. Resulting in one pissed off bad guy. The same teacher that is unable to put rounds on target under duress is the same one that will neutralize a perp with a Taser, while locked in a kill box. You made mention in a previous post that you need to take into account all scenarios (btw thanks for not addressing mine). The scenario of the Taser missing or being ineffective is very real.

You made mention that your job is to analyze situations and come up with a solution. Does that include active shooters? Or just number crunching and spitting out a solution?

Sucks but that's the reality. It would also help cut down on drugs and other issues at schools as well. So it's a win-win.

Would also give teachers the support they need when things get unruly.

I'd be all for having teachers carry guns in schools if they be would result in less deaths and injuries. 99.9+% of schools in this country will never have a mass shooter. But having guns around in all schools for years and years IS going to result in some deaths and accidents. Don't know how anyone can say that won't happen. Emotions are running high right now for everyone, including me, and we are all focused on stopping the next shooter at our own school. In a month maybe things will cool down and would be a better time to look at this.

What is the difference? Why is it you support your buddies right to carry but then suddenly when that buddy steps from one imaginary line to another he is not longer trusted or afforded the same basic right?

By that reasoning gun shows should be the most dangerous place to be, or a police station. You’re convinced that your way is the only way. When the door is kicked in, after the on duty guard was popped, yeah, I want the teacher armed with a taser. ALL scenarios must be taken into account. Not just the one(s) that support your POV or suggested solution.

Coelker, I answered that question in earlier posts. The difference is the school board. You need to go to your local school board meeting and ask them. I don't control what your local school allows and doesn't allow. Why can you hunt on the outside of a no-hunting allowed refuge, but take one step over that imaginary line and if you try to hunt you will be arrested?

Bowbender, "You’re convinced that your way is the only way." Nope, I said if someone can prove to me that I am wrong I'd listen. But, yes, I am convinced I am right, just as you are, and everyone else on here. Let me ask you this, if it was your child that was killed when a teacher left their gun on a table and forgot about it, would you think teacher carry is a good idea? Gun shows aren't loaded and don't have kids packed in a room. Police stations have much more highly trained operators and they also don't have kids packed into them. But you know what, both of those places still have some accidents, just like schools will, too.

In all reality, one year from now there aren't going to be guns in most schools. What should we do with those schools that don't? Do nothing? Give them LEO tasers? HIre a police resource officer?

On average 10 students are killed each year in school shootings. Over 100 students are killed riding their bike or walking to school, but we don't have mandatory helmet laws in half of the states for children. I suggested this in my first or second post way back, but nobody bit.

There. I fixed it for ya.

"Gun shows aren't loaded and don't have kids packed in a room. "

Apparently you don't go to many gun shows. Ours in PA have a ton of kids, with their parents. Plenty of guns, plenty of ammo. No shootings.

Your argument is specious at best. If we follow your argument out to its logical conclusion, no one should be allowed to have firearms in their home as long as their is school aged children at home.

"Carrying concealed weapons in public schools is a right protected by law for permit holders in Utah, and teachers who carry firearms are not required to inform school administrators of the existence of their weapons. “If an employee has a concealed-carry permit, they can carry,” Christopher Williams, a Davis School District spokesman, told the Tribune.

What’s more, parents, by law, are not allowed to ask their child’s teacher if he or she is carrying a gun in the classroom. "This would violate the intent and the strategic advantage of the 'concealed' weapon."