Food for thought. Several years ago WY sent out a questionnaire I and a couple other NR I know received it. It was apparent this stuff was coming. It was basically asking how much would you pay for a point before you dropped out? A tag? etc.
I apply for over 50 tags a year and, with the exception of bison in AK (I got a bison in WY) and Vermont moose (I drew). I have never dropped out of anything. I will drop WY sheep and moose as soon as I draw.
For those on the fence. This is NOT the end. They will raise point fees. They will raise tag fees. Also the plan to hold out for a mid or lower tier unit will not work. Many going for top units will drop down so they can draw and be done. There will not be point creep there will be point leap. Fewer and fewer tags for moose will not help.
WY is smart, they are doing a great job of running a business. Smart moves but I do not think it is fair.
What's next? has anyone on the fence considered what WY will do next?
Besides raising app, point and tag fees they WILL cut preference point tags. They know the internet and magazines (to some extent) are tipping off hunters to realistic odds. Guys are NOT going to start spending, or continue spending hundreds of dollars a year for applying with the dream of waiting for the hundreds of guys ahead of them to die or quit applying and draw.
WY will cut the max points tags to 50% or 25%. No question about it.
Keep this in mind as you make your decisions.
The Elk/Deer/Pronghorn takes a bit longer as the Point Builders need a couple of years to burn through 2 or 3 species. Then they bail. Economy will soften and that always has an effect as hunters lose jobs or homes so sending $100s away to WY for points is not a priority.
The wealthy hunters love seeing prices soar. Is a rounding error to the total cash outlay to apply in 10 or more states out West. Even the cost of the tag is a rounding error for those guys. However, no matter how much money you have in your pocket there are some hunters that are not fond of seeing tag allocations cut. Will upset some enough to write off WY out of principle. NM gave a haircut to NR allocation and has been a factor years later. MT raised prices but demand came back as economy got better.
WY can live off 1%ers for Sheep/Moose/Goat/Bison. There are only a 200 or so tags total for NR for those 4 species. The Elk/Deer/Pronghorn situation is much different and you need Joe Sixpack to buy up 1000s of NR tags of which some are now over $1000. Good luck with that WY. Maximizing revenues is a crappy way to run a F&G. Do you know the pressure that arises when winter kill hurts a herd but costs have gone up 5% - 10% since last budget? Team players know how to get in line and okay a "moderately" aggressive tag allocation (wink wink nod nod) and they will. Quality of the outdoor experience will fall. Even wealthy hunters want a quality outdoor experience.
I dropped out of the Wyo sheep draw around 15 years ago! It was easy for me to compute how many tags are issued and how many guys were ahead of me. I was lucky to draw a moose tag many years ago....and then promptly drop out of the moose draw. I saw the writing on the wall for Wyo moose. Gobs of bears/wolves fewer and fewer tags = more years to draw. I took my son out of the Wyo moose draw around 10 years ago.
With all due respect, that's not true. It costs $424 to apply for Moose, Sheep, Elk, PH, and deer in WY - and that's just points, that's not including app fees. It's closer to $500 with app fees that are also non-refundable.
Averaged out with using a hunting license for two years, I can apply for 7-8 species in Utah for about $100/yr. Colorado I can now apply for the same amount for even less now. Nevada costs about $200/yr to apply for 5 species and AZ is about the same. WY is far more expensive now and that's not adding in the money I'm losing by borrowing them so much cash.
That said, I disagree that the elk/deer/PH apps are going to change much. You can still have a reasonable hunt with just a few points for those 3 species.
And I agree that WY is still the place to hunt. It's a great state with great animals and they are very generous with the total tags given to NRs. The only issue is the ridiculous price of PPs and a broken PP system for certain species.
I also guess that not enough people will drop out to make a difference based on the increase in cost for WY to actually lose money - yet. Maybe someday, but I think enough will hang on.
To apply and build points across the board Wyoming cost more than twice as much as any other state. That is not even close to being the same. Would you pay twice as much for your car or your house?
I am very lucky and worked hard and was able to leave the workforce almost a decade ago. I do like increased prices and. Face because it increases my drawings. That said what Wy is doing is simply not right in my opinion.
In Wyoming I have had three mule deer tags two antelope tags two bull elk tags and sure third this year a cow bison tag and three cow elk tags.
30-06 just to be clear you think Wy is being fair to nonresidents?
Also as mentioned above I also agree they’re going to put more tags in the special draw.
I feel bad for the guys who have been priced out of Wyoming. I wish it was something to do but they’re truly is not. When they raise sheep points from seven dollars to $100 only half the guys dropped out. That meant they made seven times as much money for half the work! That is a far cry from hurting themselves in fact they helped themselves! pun intended
I have a good friend who is very nice guy and lives in the Dakotas. He was looking at buying land in Wyoming that had elk tags and stopped in to talk to the local game warden. When the game warden found out he was a nonresident he flat out told him he would not give landowner tags to nonresidents! I had a game warden flat out tell me he didn’t think I should bow hunt in the evenings and if I shot an elk got it and left it overnight and a grizzly bear claimed that he would give me a ticket for wanton waste.
Considering they get 80% of their revenue from nonresidents this just does not sit right with me.
And most of those states allocate 10% or less tags to NRs and have sheep and/or moose odds that are worse than Wyoming.
It’s not WYs or any other states’ fault that there is more demand than supply for top tier animals like sheep, moose, mountain goat, and bison. That’s just the way it is.
Yes, they are monetizing the resource. So what? If they didn’t monetize it there would still be only a few tags to draw. Newsflash: not everyone is going to get to hunt the premier species - no matter if the cost to apply is $5 or $200.
There are a thousands of people every year who are willing to pay $100 or so for a chance at a random draw sheep/moose/mountain goat tag. No one is holding a gun to their head. By doubling the app fee WY is making an effort to actually make the PP pool relevant again by weeding people out. Is that a sin? IDK - I guess it depends on your outlook. People can choose to continue to pay the freight for a small chance to draw or not. Their choice. Just like people can choose to pay the freight or not for a million other things in life.
Whining about it isn’t going to magically make more animals or tags available.
The very wealthy hunters, can not bail them out, they need average joe, spending money out there,,,,, the local merchants want that income,,,,, NR hunters spend money in the state............
I was lucky to hunt sheep in the 60's and 70's, and actually go where Jack O Connor suggested,,, he must be rolling over in his grave, talking to Fred Bear in heaven and Coach Lombardi, saying "What the hell is going on down there"
Should a state be able to monetize everything to maximize revenue? Or, are there certain things where society is better for having a "flat" playing field where the most people can participate?
Univ. of Wyoming could triple tuition costs and still get 1/3 or more of the current students enrolled so why not? Only so many parking spots so why not charge 3x as much per space during peak demand? How about a Regular and Special license plate where the Special can drive faster but costs 50% more to buy the plate? Charge fees to access library since only so many books and PCs in there. Might as well charge more for certain lunch hours at the local high school.
All of those items I mentioned involve an item where we collectively paid to create the roads or schools or library and to maintain them but if really want to apply the WY F&G monetization model then need to change things up a bit.
Sure, the privileged will get to jump ahead of most of your neighbors but, you know, is not the fault of the rich guy that he has a lot more money can throw at a sheep or moose application. Is probably God's desire we make it easier for the wealthy to enjoy hunting WY's wildlife. No need to have blue collar types out there shooting the King's game. Those people need to learn their place. Is certainly not sheep hunting. Let them hunt cake.
You don’t seem to acknowledge my point, however.
If demand exceeds supply, someone will be left out. Money is commonly the deciding factor on that score in a capitalist society.
You can get as snideful as you want trying to make it a “blue collar” vs. “white collar” issue. There’s some truth to that of course. Just like there’s truth in the fact that not everyone can drive a new King Ranch F250 every year or two (or ever). By the same token, not everybody can hunt sheep or moose every year or two (or ever).
The “King’s England” analogy is BS - there are thousands of hunting opportunities for all every year. Just not for sheep or moose because there are not very many sheep or moose.
These sheep/moose threads make a lot of conservative guys sound like whining socialists - which is always amazing to me.
Have been lucky in a few drawings and have shot a moose in Wyoming. Definitely out for moose in WY this year. Just not lucky enough to pull that sheep tag and get out 10 years ago...
Definitely annoying when various G&F departments keep changing the rules when you are in "too deep to quit" and right on the cusp of getting one of those tags. Really sucks when you are sitting just behind the curve for 10 to 20 years but still in far better shape than guys just getting started.
Raising the fees so high in Wyoming may bite them when no one will get in at the ground floor buying points any more.
Heck, some of the lucky guys here in Colorado have been able to shoot 3 sheep and 3 goats! I am just not that lucky :(
Goyt hit the nail on the head. I am trying to keep people informed and realistic. I am being honest. if it helps me get a tag a yer sooner all the better.
Top end units will be within my reach in 1/2 the time it would have taken.
He certainly was spot on and said almost exactly what I've mentioned about Wyoming. There is no other state that comes close to it as far as NR opportunity for close to the same prices as the other western states, at least when you're talking about elk, deer, and antelope that most people want to hunt. Yes, for sheep, moose, goats and Bison the prices for PPs and license are high, but most states are and there just aren't the number of animals to justify many more tags than are now offered. Thus unless you have a ton of money and plan to be able to live and hunt when you're 100 you might have a one in 50 chance at a tag! I do have to say that Don appears to be just a little hypocritical when he bad mouths Wyoming and it's prices, etc. and then turns right around and seems to say that he doesn't care because it's actually helping him draw tags with the money he has available and all the time to hunt since he's retired.
Sure, every state is getting pricey but it is my main form of entertainment and recreation.
3 1/2 hour drive from my home and I am on the mountain.
Atleast I don't have to dump $160.00 for just a license to even apply like Az --or $150.00 like Nv. (although I do go over to Nv and hunt Chukars) so the license isn't actual a 'waste' and Chukars are a dang good winter lung-n-leg blowout! haha
Good luck, Robb