Mathews Inc.
Newest eBike Club Member
Elk
Contributors to this thread:
BULELK1 05-Mar-18
BULELK1 05-Mar-18
BULELK1 05-Mar-18
BULELK1 05-Mar-18
BULELK1 05-Mar-18
grubby 05-Mar-18
txhunter58 05-Mar-18
Paul@thefort 05-Mar-18
Newhunter1 05-Mar-18
Jaquomo 05-Mar-18
Grubby 05-Mar-18
t-roy 05-Mar-18
Jaquomo 05-Mar-18
grubby 05-Mar-18
cnelk 05-Mar-18
gottoohunt 05-Mar-18
TD 05-Mar-18
Native Okie 05-Mar-18
txhunter58 05-Mar-18
BULELK1 06-Mar-18
midwest 06-Mar-18
APauls 06-Mar-18
bowhunter1 06-Mar-18
Jaquomo 06-Mar-18
Scoot 06-Mar-18
Shiras 06-Mar-18
Inshart 06-Mar-18
Jaquomo 06-Mar-18
JRABQ 06-Mar-18
gottoohunt 06-Mar-18
BULELK1 07-Mar-18
Inshart 07-Mar-18
Grubby 07-Mar-18
BULELK1 08-Mar-18
EmbryOklahoma 08-Mar-18
Monarchcx 08-Mar-18
Jaquomo 08-Mar-18
Nick Muche 08-Mar-18
Inshart 08-Mar-18
EmbryOklahoma 08-Mar-18
grubby 08-Mar-18
midwest 08-Mar-18
cnelk 08-Mar-18
EmbryOklahoma 08-Mar-18
EmbryOklahoma 08-Mar-18
Jaquomo 08-Mar-18
Wapitidung 08-Mar-18
EmbryOklahoma 08-Mar-18
tobywon 08-Mar-18
Native Okie 08-Mar-18
BULELK1 09-Mar-18
badlands13 17-Mar-18
Jaquomo 17-Mar-18
badlands13 17-Mar-18
BULELK1 17-Mar-18
Jaquomo 17-Mar-18
WapitiBob 17-Mar-18
IdyllwildArcher 17-Mar-18
BULELK1 17-Mar-18
Whip 18-Mar-18
M.Pauls 18-Mar-18
Jaquomo 18-Mar-18
Knothead 18-Mar-18
Medicinemann 18-Mar-18
Jaquomo 18-Mar-18
Knothead 18-Mar-18
Jaquomo 18-Mar-18
Knothead 18-Mar-18
BULELK1 18-Mar-18
Aspen Ghost 18-Mar-18
txhunter58 19-Mar-18
BULELK1 20-Mar-18
EZBreazy 20-Mar-18
Rut Nut 20-Mar-18
grubby 20-Mar-18
NoWiser 20-Mar-18
Jaquomo 20-Mar-18
NoWiser 20-Mar-18
Bullhound 20-Mar-18
Jaquomo 20-Mar-18
Bullhound 20-Mar-18
Jaquomo 20-Mar-18
Knothead 20-Mar-18
Jaquomo 20-Mar-18
Bullhound 20-Mar-18
Whip 20-Mar-18
Jaquomo 20-Mar-18
Whip 20-Mar-18
Jaquomo 20-Mar-18
Whip 20-Mar-18
Jaquomo 20-Mar-18
Whip 20-Mar-18
ground hunter 20-Mar-18
BULELK1 21-Mar-18
Jaquomo 21-Mar-18
TD 21-Mar-18
NoWiser 21-Mar-18
Scar Finga 21-Mar-18
Rut Nut 22-Mar-18
cnelk 22-Mar-18
NoWiser 22-Mar-18
Rut Nut 22-Mar-18
Scar Finga 22-Mar-18
cnelk 22-Mar-18
grubby 22-Mar-18
Mark Watkins 22-Mar-18
Jaquomo 22-Mar-18
Pat Lefemine 22-Mar-18
Rut Nut 22-Mar-18
BULELK1 23-Mar-18
Scrappy 24-Mar-18
Aspen Ghost 04-Apr-18
Jaquomo 04-Apr-18
Aspen Ghost 04-Apr-18
Jaquomo 04-Apr-18
Jaquomo 05-Apr-18
Rut Nut 05-Apr-18
Amoebus 05-Apr-18
Jaquomo 05-Apr-18
Jaquomo 05-Apr-18
Ziek 06-Apr-18
grubby 06-Apr-18
midwest 06-Apr-18
Newhunter1 06-Apr-18
Jaquomo 06-Apr-18
huntabsarokee 10-Apr-18
BULELK1 12-Apr-18
painless 12-Apr-18
eBike John 12-Apr-18
Turk 12-Apr-18
BULELK1 13-Apr-18
grubby 13-Apr-18
Paul@thefort 13-Apr-18
huntabsarokee 13-Apr-18
Jaquomo 13-Apr-18
Turk 13-Apr-18
Jaquomo 13-Apr-18
grubby 13-Apr-18
Jaquomo 13-Apr-18
eBike John 14-Apr-18
Turk 14-Apr-18
From: BULELK1
05-Mar-18

BULELK1's embedded Photo
BULELK1's embedded Photo
Morning All,

I went with the RadWagon

It has a pretty dang good payload for hauling, if I need to use it that way.

Some assembly required.

Good luck, Robb

From: BULELK1
05-Mar-18

BULELK1's embedded Photo
BULELK1's embedded Photo
They provide On-line Assembly Video's so it was nice to have my iPad handy.

From: BULELK1
05-Mar-18

BULELK1's embedded Photo
BULELK1's embedded Photo
The 'Foot Racks' can handle 40lbs

The back 'Shelf' is rated @ 120lbs.

From: BULELK1
05-Mar-18

BULELK1's embedded Photo
BULELK1's embedded Photo
I added some Panniers and a front case for keys ect.

From: BULELK1
05-Mar-18

BULELK1's embedded Photo
BULELK1's embedded Photo
I did buy a Motorcycle style hitch rack for the receiver on BULELK1 or BULELK2 .

All said and done, right @ $1,798.00 OTD (out the door) free delivery.

I am content--------->

Thanks for looking

Good luck, Robb

From: grubby
05-Mar-18
Cool! interesting design, cant wait to hear how you like it. I ran my battery dead on Saturday 2 miles from home.....its much better with it than without.

From: txhunter58
05-Mar-18
Nice. Let's us know how it goes up hills!

From: Paul@thefort
05-Mar-18
Good reviews on this new generation. Have Fun my best, Paul

From: Newhunter1
05-Mar-18
I just went 7 miles on my quietkat ambush. I had it up to 24-30 mph...it was literally flying. When going through mud, it's like the mud isn't there...well that is until it hits me in the head. Great bike you've got...I almost went that route...and sometimes I wish I had.

From: Jaquomo
05-Mar-18
Wait until you to up a steep hill. First time I did it I was laughing my head off.

Yesterday in the Denver Post some sour grapes conventional road bike rider had an editorial about them. Cities and counties are now individually ruling on their use and most all are allowing them wherever bicycles go, per state law. This guy was moaning because some "old man" passed him going up Vail Pass on the bike trail and seemed to be having a great time, and he didnt like that. Wait until he's in his mid-60's and still wants to ride but can't do what he used to.

From: Grubby
05-Mar-18
Did you give him the bird when you passed him Lou?

From: t-roy
05-Mar-18
Nice bike, Robb. Let’s see a pic of you riding it in your hunting clothes. No bicycle shorts please! ;-)

From: Jaquomo
05-Mar-18
Grubby, I didn't but would have if he'd said anything snide. ;-)

Since he's a staff writer for the Post, I felt compelled to respond. Here's the text of my letter:

I am a 64 year old mountain bike rider. I ride my conventional mountain bike somewhere between 40-60 miles per week in summer, on gradual terrain. I’m also a 64 year old e-bike enthusiast with a metal hip, asthma, and one bad knee who still loves to ride the hills and rough trails – both up and down. Steve Lipsher's column missed the point of e-bikes. They aren’t designed to race around at top speed, like the arrogant spandex-wrapped Lance Armstrong wannabes who blast past us on bike and walking trails without even so much as an “on your left”, and who disobey traffic laws with impunity. They aren’t for the menacing X-Games MTB wannabes who threaten hikers, horseback riders, and courteous bikers as they careen down narrow trails on the edge of control.

Rather, they are for folks who still enjoy bicycling but need a little push going uphill, or who commute daily and want a boost when fatigue sets in (the assist level is adjustable). The Boomer Bubble is very real, and our aging population of outdoor enthusiasts face different challenges.

Steve condemns e-bikes as being “motorized”, which directly conflicts with the definitions of both federal law (HR 717) and state law (HB 17-1151). Both specifically state that Class I and II low-speed “pedal-assist” bikes with an assist level below 750 watts are NOT motorized vehicles. They are NOT motorcycles or ATVs. The U.S. Congress and the State legislature showed uncharacteristically good sense in codifying the distinction.

Today Steve wants the bike paths all to himself. He said as much in his closing statement. Someday he will grow old and may not be able to pedal where he once did. I’ve learned that lesson the hard way. Perhaps by then reason will have overtaken emotion and Steve still be able to enjoy an outing on an e-bike wherever bicycles are permitted.

From: grubby
05-Mar-18
very well written response!!

From: cnelk
05-Mar-18

cnelk's Link
See link for the column that was written by Steve Lipsher

Feel free to email him or the editor your thoughts at the bottom of the article

From: gottoohunt
05-Mar-18
I have had our Rad Rover and my wife's Rad City for two years and really love them. We are both in our mid 60's and use mine for hunting on private land in Virginia, Kentucky and Ohio. I put a small trailer on the Rad Rover to haul some of my gear. What a nice piece of off road transportation that is easy to haul and not rough on the ground. You will enjoy your new purchase. gottoohunt

From: TD
05-Mar-18
Pretty cool Robb..... =D

From: Native Okie
05-Mar-18
Good write up, Lou.

The “on your left” comment is so true. I’ve been brushed more times than I care while out running in the past.

From: txhunter58
05-Mar-18
You could make the same type of argument to keep 18 wheelers and sports cars off the roads. They are ruining it for everyone!!!

From: BULELK1
06-Mar-18
Thanks for having our back Lou. Nice

I use my eBike for running errands, hitting a few trails that aren't to snow covered..... ect.....

It sure gets a lot of attention that is for sure.

Good luck, Robb

From: midwest
06-Mar-18
"The “on your left” comment is so true. I’ve been brushed more times than I care while out running in the past."

Found that out myself this past weekend on the trails near Denver. Whether I was running or even walking with my daughter pushing a baby stroller! Lots of a-holes on bikes.

Lookin good Robb!

From: APauls
06-Mar-18
LOL, that Steve Lipsher sounds like a real treat to hang out with.

From: bowhunter1
06-Mar-18
I just bought the 750 Rambo,,,, Tom

From: Jaquomo
06-Mar-18
You're going to love it. BTW, if it ever comes up because the federal law specifies "less than 750 watts", the Rambo 750 is actually 749. Says so on the bottom of the motor by the serial number.

From: Scoot
06-Mar-18
That rig looks pretty awesome, Robb!

From: Shiras
06-Mar-18
I've enjoyed my Rad Rover, but will say it does not handle mud very well. Clogs up pretty easily and makes the chain skip. OTher than that I am very happy with it.

From: Inshart
06-Mar-18
Robb, Lou, Do you think there would be any difference it the ride / handling of these bikes in very rough terrain, if they had the "FAT" tires as opposed to what are on the Rad's now?

From: Jaquomo
06-Mar-18
I can't speak to Robb's bike with the 3" tires but my Rambo has 4" and it sure makes a positive difference compared to my conventional mountain bike tires. They run at 10 pounds now but I'm going to experiment a bit. Pretty sure I wouldn't have crashed and burned on these fat tires a couple years ago. Have had no issues with mud and snow but did opt for the fender kit after a good mud spraydown.

From: JRABQ
06-Mar-18
Great letter Lou.

From: gottoohunt
06-Mar-18
The 4" fat tire on my Rad Rover does well on trails and ground. I run it with about 20 pounds or a little less of air. gotoohunt

From: BULELK1
07-Mar-18
No complaints about tire size so far Bob.

But I have only been on that wet heavy snow so far.

No mud to speak of

Spring is coming, time will tell.

Good luck, Robb

From: Inshart
07-Mar-18
Thanks, I did contact Rad, they said there just isn't enough clearance for the FAT tires on their bikes.

From: Grubby
07-Mar-18
I am super impressed with how well the fats on my Rambo do on ice and how well they soak up bumps

From: BULELK1
08-Mar-18
I am getting help from my Electrical Engineer bud that is big time into the Solar craze for homes/bsn's ect.

I bought a spare battery ($499.00) and a spare charger ($39.99) so he can take it to the job and see if he can come up with a Solar charging option for the Single charging plug, not two like + and - on all most all Solar portables.

I'll keep ya'll posted if he comes up with something----------->

Good luck, Robb

08-Mar-18
Nice bike, Robb!

As far as the "on your left" goes... seems the majority of runners/walkers I've passed and yelled this to (way in advance), don't know their left from their right. I yell it religiously while out in my spandex on my skinny tire bike.

From: Monarchcx
08-Mar-18
If I had one I'd feel like that witch in Wizard of Oz flying by people!

From: Jaquomo
08-Mar-18
Rick, I'm trying to imagine you in lime green spandex and matching shoes and my brain keeps seizing up.

Robb, you should take a look at the Rambo solar charging unit. I haven't seen it in person but it must be a single plug because that's what Rambos are too.

From: Nick Muche
08-Mar-18
Robb, now that ur retired n all, you sure hv been soaking up the new toys :)

Good luck with the solar option!

From: Inshart
08-Mar-18

Inshart's embedded Photo
Inshart's embedded Photo
Upper left - let me guess, is this "Baldy Mountain" or "Hair Creek Pass" LOL

08-Mar-18
"Rick, I'm trying to imagine you in lime green spandex and matching shoes and my brain keeps seizing up."

Just black, Lou. Although, I'm thinking of going back to regular shorts because it's always a constant adjustment of the Frank and beans.

From: grubby
08-Mar-18
why would anyone TRY to imagine that??

From: midwest
08-Mar-18
LOL@ Inshart!!!

From: cnelk
08-Mar-18
That is called 'Death Valley'

08-Mar-18
Grubby... I find that odd too. :)

08-Mar-18

EmbryOklahoma's embedded Photo
EmbryOklahoma's embedded Photo
Here, Lou... imagine this guy. For full effect, Google him.

From: Jaquomo
08-Mar-18
Geez, Rick, first time I've ever seen you without a beard!

As far as biking shorts, I use a hybrid that looks like cargo shorts but has a junk support system inside.

First time I rode into my buddy's driveway with regular spandex bike shorts his Chesapeake ran out and bit me on the leg. Sent a message. There have been no problems with that dog since switching to the cargo-style.

From: Wapitidung
08-Mar-18
Heck, just get a Buick.

08-Mar-18
There you go again, Lou... imagining.

From: tobywon
08-Mar-18
Forget about the bike, I'm jealous of all the garage space that you have :)

Congrats on the new bike and enjoy!!!!

From: Native Okie
08-Mar-18
Biker Fox! An Oklahoma Icon!

From: BULELK1
09-Mar-18
I am retired now and I can't afford real wallpaper--------->

But

I just use last years calendar pix.

Good luck, Robb

PS-Thanks Lou ~~ I'll look into it.

From: badlands13
17-Mar-18
I would love to have one of these bikes. As I missing something though? Some of those posts above state that federal law says it's ok if under 750 wats. I would like to use these on closed roads and trails that regular bikes can go on but the US Forest Service and BLM states that an ebike with any size motor is treated as a motorized vehicle and not allowed.

From: Jaquomo
17-Mar-18
badlands, this is all getting sorted out. USFS and BLM jumped the gun and declared them as "motorized" in conflict with the federal law designation while they try to figure out what to do. Its an educational process, much like when snowboards were first banned from ski areas. FYI, the "750" motors are actually 749 watts to comply with the law as being "not motorized".

USFS has pilot programs now to study the effect. The effect is nil. Within a year or so I predict they'll be permitted wherever conventional pedal bikes are allowed. The lobbying forces are growing, especially among seniors. For now they don't appear to be ticketing anyone, only looking the other way.

From: badlands13
17-Mar-18
Do you have anything in writing about this. I would like to check it out. I know right now if I had a 749 wat ebike on closed forest service trails/roads I would be ticketed. If this gets changed I will sell my horses and get an ebike.

From: BULELK1
17-Mar-18
There are 1,000's and 1,000's of miles of trails and old 2-track roads that you can go for ever on and hunt.

to me, before I hit Submit Purchase, I simply looked at it like anything else that has rules/laws/restrictions and made my decision knowing my new eBike didn't open up any new horizions for me just an offering for legal use in so many area's.

Good luck, Robb

From: Jaquomo
17-Mar-18
There is no record that anyone can find of anyone being ticketed on NF, and a LOT of people are very interested in that. The USFS is undertaking "pilot programs" this year to allow them in certain areas and measure the impact on hike-bike trails and closed roads. Throughout CO, counties and municipalities are making them legal wherever conventional bikes are allowed. (CO has also declared them as not-motorized by law). There is growing pressure from a number of lobbies, especially older folks, to permit them. People I know who have encountered USFS rangers on their e-bikes say they pay no attention.

Put it this way: The USFS declaration that Class 1 and 2 e-bikes are "motorized" is in direct conflict with federal law. The Supreme Court is going to hear a case this summer to decide whether federal agencies can make up their own "rules" and enforce them as law when they conflict with standing federal laws. This is in response to the Obama practice of bypassing Congress to make "laws" enforced by agencies.

This will get sorted out favorably. May take a year or two but it will happen.

From: WapitiBob
17-Mar-18

WapitiBob's embedded Photo
WapitiBob's embedded Photo

17-Mar-18
Haha, the bike snobs are really getting their panties in a wad over e-bikes.

From: BULELK1
17-Mar-18
That's a good pic W-Bob!!!

Way funny haha

Good luck, Robb

From: Whip
18-Mar-18
That picture is not a photoshopped joke. It is an actual trail sign and they show what is legal on non motorized trails. I've seen them on some trails I've ridden and expect they will become standard on most national forest trails. E bikes are not legal on most of them with a few local exceptions. Some say just ignore them and you probably won't get a ticket. But even if you don't get one it's still breaking the law.

From: M.Pauls
18-Mar-18
Man they’re bike arguments remind me of our compound vs trad or crossbow/crossgun stuff. Lol we all just have it way too good that this stuff means so much to us

From: Jaquomo
18-Mar-18
Whip, you need to follow the government discussions that are going on. The lead State policy maker for Colorado trails told me he believes they should and will be legal wherever conventional bikes are permitted. CO is working out their policy now. He said the USFS overreacted, they are not "motorized" by law, and they should welcome more older folks out there riding the trails. He also said some bureaucrats misunderstand them and how they are used. He is the one who told me this will turn around in a year or two.

As for you and the law, personally, it's comforting to know that you NEVER, EVER go 56 in a 55 mph speed zone. You are an example for all of us, a God among men. Congratulations!

From: Knothead
18-Mar-18
Be careful what you ask for............. you just might get it.

From: Medicinemann
18-Mar-18
Robb, Jaquomo, Just out of curiosity, how loud are the bikes? Can you hear them from 200 yards? 20 yards? Would they "bump" a lot of game if you rode by them on one of these bikes?

From: Jaquomo
18-Mar-18
Jake, there is no sound. None besides the sound the tires make. That's why they are so appealing for hunters. You should find a local bike shop and ride one. Most bike shops carry them now.

Knothead, not sure what you mean, but if it's more old folks enjoying bike trails and closed USFS roads that we used to ride on conventional MTBs 20 years ago, then absolutely!

From: Knothead
18-Mar-18
I mean it will not be just old folks enjoying those trails it will be everyone. Can you imagine how technology will change things and before you know it you e-two seaters, 4-seaters, e-planes etc. Don't think it will happen? Technology changes daily and humans by and large are looking for the easy way all the time. This is a slippery slope you are about to embark on and once you start down it there ain't no coming back.

Face it, getting old sucks and unfortunately we can't do some of the things we used to. This is just a part of life. I would rather have some places where non-motorized contraptions are not allowed than to open up this huge can of worms. There are still plenty of places you can ride.

From: Jaquomo
18-Mar-18
There are millions and millions of acres of public land where no mechanized travel is allowed. I would prefer that horse travel not be allowed there either, since they tear up trails, crowd the wilderness with people who otherwise wouldn't be able to access it. Nobody is advocating for e-bikes there, but the pedal MTB bike elitists are demanding access to wilderness while they concurrently fight to keep e-bikes off "their" trails. The hypocrisy is so obvious it's laughable.

Look at the demographics of who is buying e-bikes for mountain travel. It's almost all seniors. That's all you need to know.

Why is it that whenever a positive, productive e-bike thread is started some nattering nabobs feel compelled to wreck it by projecting their own unfounded prejudices into the thread?

From: Knothead
18-Mar-18
Wow, name calling. Feel like I'm back in elementary school again.

I guess we all have to have the same opinion as you? This seems familiar.

From: BULELK1
18-Mar-18
No sound at all Jake.

Not even a hummmmmm

Very impressive

#LovinLife,

Robb

From: Aspen Ghost
18-Mar-18
The federal law doesn't declare that ebikes under 750 watts are not motorized from the standpoint of usage. It only states that ebikes under 750 watts don't have to meet Federal motor vehicle safety regulations. Big difference. The USFS and BLM interpretation is correct. If a trail or road is closed to motor vehicles then ebikes should not be allowed on them.

If ebikes are allowed on a trail then all motorized bikes should be allowed. There's nothing special about electricity vs gasoline power.

From: txhunter58
19-Mar-18
"There's nothing special about electricity vs gasoline power"

Really? .

No special difference in sound? Sorry, but sound is a really big thing to me in my hunting areas. .

No special difference in power? Hmm. I also hunt some trails that motocross type cycles are allowed, and those trails are a lot more damaged than bicycles only. .

No speical thing about how to continue having power? I can take an extra can of gas in with me pretty cheaply. I suppose you could take an extra battery with a large outlay of money, but not many electric plugs where I hunt .

Although I come down on the side of allowing them , I do believe that once allowed, it won't just be senriors that use them. The younger generation, techno crowd will follow suit.

From: BULELK1
20-Mar-18
I didn't buy mine for Hunting Specific use only.

I will admit my wrists/forearms are kinda sore from the rocky trails!!

When all these storms die down and it gets a little warmer I will be using mine daily for running errands, going to the gym and so forth having Free Fuel weeks by not driving my F350 or Jeep is a sweet bennie!

Sure I will go up on the mountain more and on the legal trails and that is just fine.

It is dead quiet!

#LovinLife

Robb

From: EZBreazy
20-Mar-18
I have been looking at the RadRover fat tire as well. The only think keeping me from pulling the trigger so far is that I am not sure what accessories may be adapted to it. I would definitely like to use a cart but they don't show cart options on their page.

From: Rut Nut
20-Mar-18
From: Knothead 18-Mar-18

I mean it will not be just old folks enjoying those trails it will be everyone. Can you imagine how technology will change things and before you know it you e-two seaters, 4-seaters, e-planes etc. Don't think it will happen? Technology changes daily and humans by and large are looking for the easy way all the time. This is a slippery slope you are about to embark on and once you start down it there ain't no coming back. Face it, getting old sucks and unfortunately we can't do some of the things we used to. This is just a part of life. I would rather have some places where non-motorized contraptions are not allowed than to open up this huge can of worms. There are still plenty of places you can ride.

AMEN!!!! Just think how technology has changed in the last 10 years. Where will it be in 10 years from now? You'll probably get 3 days off a charge and be able to avg 40 mph on these things!

From: grubby
20-Mar-18
I'm 42 and own an E-bike.

From: NoWiser
20-Mar-18
I agree with Knothead and Rut Nut.

Baby Boomers like to single out millennials as being selfish, lazy, worthless, etc...

This discussion is almost humorous. "Hey, I got to enjoy these non-motorized trails my entire life and hunt in peace and relative solitude, but now that it's a bit harder on my knees, let's allow motorized vehicles on them. But not all motorized vehicles, only the ones I want. And, while we're at it, lets pass laws that say that my vehicle is non-motorized, even though the reason I bought it is because it has a motor."

Sorry aging boomers, you had your chance to hunt these areas, time to pass it on to the next generation and give them the same opportunities that you had. To advocate for anything other than that is the definition of selfish.

From: Jaquomo
20-Mar-18
Paraphrasing NoWiser, who has an apt handle... This discussion IS humorous, and not a small bit hypocritical.

"Hey, I got to enjoy bowhunting my entire life and hunt in peace and relative solitude, but now that it's a bit harder on my shoulders, let's allow wheels and cams on them. But not all bows, only the ones I want. And, while we're at it, lets pass laws that say that my bow is actually a bow, even though the reason I bought it is because it has wheels and pulleys and cams and is easier to draw and hold."

"Sorry aging boomers, you had your chance to hunt these areas, time to pass it on to the next generation and give them the same opportunities that you had. To advocate for anything other than that is the definition of selfish."

Yep - ban compound bows for the same rationale. Bummer that you older bowhunters who can't/won't shoot a trad bow are against taking the easy way out, and will immediately stop bowhunting.

Give me an effing break. Do you hear yourselves?

From: NoWiser
20-Mar-18
Sorry Jaq, saying a compound bow is to a trad bow what a motorized vehicle is to a non-motorized vehicle is a heck of a stretch.

I've dealt with knee problems my entire life and am on the road to replacement at some point in the future. Most of my immediate and extended family already have both of them replaced. There are plenty of mountains I can't hunt. It's the cards I was dealt and I plan accordingly. I'd benefit as much as anyone from an ebike but it doesn't change the fact that they absolutely do not belong on non-motorized roads. Perhaps you should petition to just open up those roads to motorized use and then you could use it legally?

From: Bullhound
20-Mar-18
These ebikes do seem like a cool idea for certain places and times. NoWiser, I can see where you are coming from with your thoughts, and, for whatever reason, those few words of yours resonated with me. I was thinking of a few places I used to be able to hump into, that I have a heck of a time trying to now. Thinking an ebike might work. Might be re-thinking a little. Thank You.

Lou, I find it somewhat surprising that you would attack Whip like that. Maybe there is some underlying issue you have with Whip that I'm not aware of, but his statement that you referred to was reasonable as far as I could tell. Your statements about what you "think" will happen with laws, or what your "insider" in CO thinks will happen, are not actually reality at this point in time. Why is it that someone who decides they will follow current law, rather than your interpretation of how you think it will work out, should be called out or attacked?

From: Jaquomo
20-Mar-18
Bullhound, this goes back to the other, previous e-bike thread a month or so ago where Whip came off his saddle and wouldn't let go the reins. Pat finally had to step into that thread.

As a former LEO and Park Ranger, I believe in following laws. USFS TMR "rules" are not laws. They are arbitrary rules made by bureaucrats who often don't understand what they are ruling upon. I worked closely with USFS when I was a Park Ranger in a shared mountain park and saw first hand how it works. Most of my riding is/will be done where e-bikes are currently permitted, except for a couple remote closed USFS roads. But everyone involved with the issue, from USFS regional policy-makers to the various state policy-makers agree that the current USFS TMR jumped the gun and lumped low-speed e-MTBs in with Harleys (thanks to the lobbying of the MTB organizations, much like the trad guys strongly objected to compounds in archery seasons at one time), and it's an educational process. That is why the USFS and states are now starting pilot programs to measure the effect (or not) of assist MTBs on MTB trails. E-bikes don't go as fast as young guys on conventional pedal MTBs. They sure don't go as fast as the spandex cowboys on road bikes. Downhill it's exactly the same.

If people don't like them, don't ride them. If people don't like compound bows, don't shoot them. But don't start projecting personal prejudices into something that's an evolving process without understanding all the facts and ramifications. I'd love to have all compound bows out of the woods and have the hunting seasons to myself. Yes, I am selfish, but I also acknowledge that some want to take the easy way out, and I accept that..

From: Bullhound
20-Mar-18
Was not aware of the previous run in. Hope things get cleared up soon. I am thinking of looking at one of these things.

From: Jaquomo
20-Mar-18
The other thing - this thread began as a cool discussion of Robb's new tool. He acknowledged he planned to ride it legally, where the laws and rules permit.

Then the haters felt compelled to jump in. I don't understand the mind of a hater, never will. But why can't haters let a thread be what it is instead of hijacking it to promote a personal agenda?

From: Knothead
20-Mar-18
Jaq, the only one hating is you. When did having a different opinion become hate? Turn off the CNN , MSNBC and all the other hate networks.

Originally, all I said is be careful what you desire because you might just get it.

No hate here. I love everyone. I just think there are certain places where motorized whatever don't belong because once you let one in it never stops. That's all.

From: Jaquomo
20-Mar-18
Thanks, but I don't watch those networks. That's fine to have a difference of opinion. Civil debate is good. But this thread isn't about "what do you think of e-bikes?" Neither was the one discussing the proposed law allowing pedal bikes into designated wilderness. So why were you and others compelled to once again jump in to tell us why you don't like e-bikes? What does your opinion on it have to do with the topic of this or that thread?

Here's one for you internet lawyers to figure out... By law, all "motorized vehicles" traveling on USFS roads and trails open to motorized vehicles must be registered through the state, either DMV or the CO CPW which issues OHV registrations for Colorado. USFS writes the citations for unregistered motor vehicles. An e-bike needs to be registered and carry a sticker like an ATV or dirt bike, right?

Nope, the state won't register it as a motorized vehicle for use on USFS and BLM roads/trails because.....wait for it.......federal and state law don't consider them motorized unless they are Class 3. That's what the lead administrator at the CO CPW told me, and gave me his personal phone number in case the USFS hassles me.

So I am breaking the law by following the law if I ride only where motorized vehicles are allowed. Go figure...

From: Bullhound
20-Mar-18
well, Robb, I did get to reading this because of a slight interest in these ebikes. I didn't mean to take away anything from your thread and I'm sure hoping I'm not thrown in the "haters" club!

Enjoy that new ride!

From: Whip
20-Mar-18
Bullhound, this goes back to the other, previous e-bike thread a month or so ago where Whip came off his saddle and wouldn't let go the reins. Pat finally had to step into that thread. I don't think I came out of a saddle - just kept saying the same thing over and over because it didn't seem to be sinking in. Still hasn't I guess. Call it what you want, breaking rules, breaking laws - all can result in fines and penalties. I, and I'd like to think most hunters out there, try to follow both rules and laws as best as we can. Not just those we don't personally agree with. I don't have anything at all against ebikes. Ridden in places where the rules allow them, I might even find myself on one someday. There. I'm getting off this damn saddle. Call me any name that you wish.

From: Jaquomo
20-Mar-18
Whip, fair enough. We agree to disagree.

So to the dilemma I just described, if the USFS considers e-bikes as motorized and everything motorized is required by the USFS to have a visible state registration sticker but the state law says they are not motorized and CPW won't issue a registration and sticker, then am I breaking the law by riding it where the USFS TMR says it's ok since its a motorized vehicle and required to display a sticker?

The state folks tell me this is yet another state-federal disconnect that has yet to be tested in court.

From: Whip
20-Mar-18
If you're on a trail that allows motorized vehicles I can't imagine you would have a problem. No different than riding a regular bicycle on the road. Bicycles on the road still have to follow traffic laws even though they don't have to be registered. On that much I think we agree completely. Rules of the road are different from rules on non motorized trails, and that I guess is where we don't see it the same way.

From: Jaquomo
20-Mar-18
Whip, nope, USFS says it's motorized. USFS rules say motorized vehicles must be registered and display a sticker. The "law" is clear. Just as clear as the ambiguity about what constitutes a "motorized" vehicle.

So if I break the law by riding a motorized vehicle in USFS without a valid registration is it a greater or lesser sin that riding an e-bike on a bike trail? The fines are basically the same. I just want some clarity on where my criminal and moral turpitude lies on the Sin Scale, and you seem to be just the guy to determine that.

From: Whip
20-Mar-18
We could go on and on around in circles like we did on the last thread, but that seems pointless. I don't have an answer for you. I've not heard of anyone ever getting a fine for non-registered ebike less than 750 watts riding on a motorized road. Someone is bound to be the first I suppose. But either way, it's a separate issue from non-motorized trails. Of course, that's just my opinion. ;)

From: Jaquomo
20-Mar-18
Yes it is pointless, and really funny! On one hand you're say I'm breaking a law by riding my ebike on a trail where bicycles are permitted because it's "motorized". On the other hand you're saying I'm breaking a law by riding my motorized bike on a motorized USFS trail without proper registration because the state doesn't consider it motorized (by state law) and won't issue registration.

So since you're pretty good at offering opinions, I'd like yours about which is the greater sin I have to choose since I live next to NF and ride on both hike-bike trails and motorized ATV trails from my house. I want to make sure I'm breaking the lesser of the laws. And also if breaking either "law" is worse than you driving over the speed limit on your way to church because you're running a little late.

Clarify that, and then let's let this thread get back to the discussion of Robb's cool new bike and leave our opinions about right or wrong for a different thread.

From: Whip
20-Mar-18
Congratulations Robb on your bike! I do indeed think it is cool, I have test ridden ebikes before and know first hand how much fun you will have.

Lou, I know that you are a good elk hunter and know a lot about hunting them. I respect that. I don't have any idea why my having a different opinion than you on the use of ebikes on non-motorized trails frustrates you so. Who knows? But I've made my points, and I'm just going to leave them at that. If you want to become a test case for the law on ebikes more power to you. Pun intended.

20-Mar-18
I have been retired now for 10 years, but my last 4 years, in the police dept., after a lot of years in training division, I went over to the traffic bureau. There you were given your own squad, had to take no calls, just complete traffic assignments. It was a great assignment.......

We were pretty much on our own, to answer traffic complaints, and find issues on the hwy etc.... So in other words, I had the time..... My big thing, was enforcement of the cyclist out on the hwy. I would say a lot of them were jerks, and arrogant, and I would get a lot of complaints, on them...................

You should have heard them whine, when they were getting pulled over, for not stopping for stop signs, and blowing thru red lights, and cutting off others, they acted like they were gut shot.....

That is one assignment I enjoyed, I never stopped a cyclist, for a true and valid violation, that did not employ an attitude and an entitled attitude..... They would come to court, and piss the most liberal judges off, that is how arrogant they were....

I love to ride my mountain bike, but being on the road, you need to be responsible, and bikers are the worst, self titled, arrogant, people I have ever come across....

From: BULELK1
21-Mar-18
No worries

And Thanks

After all we do live in America and enjoy our Freedom of Speech and being able to voice our opinion.

#LovinLife

Robb

From: Jaquomo
21-Mar-18
I agree totally with ground hunter. We have a lot of pack riders here in NoCo. They act annoyed when they have to split the pack to go around me because I always stop for stoplights and stop signs. We have generous bike lanes here but they feel compelled to take up the traffic lane and force motorists to go around them on two lane highways. Walkers on the hike-bike trails have to consciously watch behind to avoid them as they speed by as fast as a racing bike can go. The kamikaze MTB riders often expect everyone else to get out of their way on descents. But since our CO mountains are littered with illegal outlaw MTB trails they often stick to those now. Good to see ethical MTB riders taking a stand and restoring some of those.

Must be a mindset, like jet skiers.

From: TD
21-Mar-18
"But even if you don't get one it's still breaking the law. "

Next thing you know I'll be stepping outside the crosswalk lines....... Hey, if you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space.....

From: NoWiser
21-Mar-18
Robb, that's a mean machine and I like it a lot! I didn't mean to detract from your thread. I love the idea of ebikes if used in the proper areas. I am certain that I will own one in the future. Let us know how you like it once hunting season rolls around!

From: Scar Finga
21-Mar-18
I just bought one, same as Robbs, only blue. Great advise from Robb on it. $1629.00 TMD (That's To My Door)

From: Rut Nut
22-Mar-18
OK guys- got a question for you. You think these e-bikes would have enough "juice" or power to tow an ice-fishing sled? Say 60-70 lbs worth? I am trying to think of a way to fish some of our bigger lakes in winter where it would be difficult to walk 1-2 miles towing a sled. Think this might be an option if I used a studded tire.

From: cnelk
22-Mar-18
^^^^^ I want to see that video ^^^^^

From: NoWiser
22-Mar-18
Rutnut, I think you could do it. It might take some assistance from your legs. I see people pulling them with regular fatbikes here. Any amount of snow will put an end to your plans, though.

From: Rut Nut
22-Mar-18

Rut Nut's Link
cnelk- here is a "regular" fatbike

From: Scar Finga
22-Mar-18
Looks like fun to me:)

From: cnelk
22-Mar-18
Rut Nut - Nice!

So whats the problem? Go for it... [and hope maybe snowmobiles make tracks like the ones in the video]

From: grubby
22-Mar-18
If I have time this weekend Ill hitch my fishhouse to my Rambo and see what I can do.

From: Mark Watkins
22-Mar-18
Great looking rig Robb!!!

Enjoy the heck out of it!

God Bless America (and our choices!

Mark

From: Jaquomo
22-Mar-18
It all depend on the snow depth, type of snow, and amount of drag. Our powder snow in the west is different from midwest snow. Riding through snow here is no problem for a fat bike, "e" or not. If it were only a couple inches the Rambo would pull my two-man Fish Trap sled just fine. Jet Sled loaded would go even better. But the Fish Trap loaded with the big auger, food, heater, Vexilar, etc.. it would probably bog down in very much snow. But if the Fish Trap were upon a pair of skis it would do it, especially with studs and strong legs.

From: Pat Lefemine
22-Mar-18

Pat Lefemine's embedded Photo
Pat Lefemine's embedded Photo
Will it work here?

From: Rut Nut
22-Mar-18
LOL Pat! : )

Thanks Grubby! That's what I was after.............................. I have a Clam Kenai that is about 60 lbs loaded. I also have a much smaller Jet sled that is an option- when loaded it is much lighter due to it's smaller size. But the bigger lakes tend to be windier where a flipover shelter is more advantageous. Just curious if an e-bike could handle the bigger sled. And yes, I do have a "smitty sled" that I strap the Kenai on top of, that makes it much easier to pull in snow.

The last few years we haven't had much snow, so most times there is less than 3 or 4" on top of the ice. Of course if we get winters with lots of snow, then a bike is out of the question. But hasn't happened in at least the last 4 years or so. You guys have me thinking..................................................... ;-)

From: BULELK1
23-Mar-18
No doubt Pat for sure if you are Behind that big snow blowin' rig!! haha

I have been toying with the idea of putting my single wheel 'Mule Cart' behind my RadWagon, maybe weld some brackets on it so it is more secure.....

#LovinLife

Robb

From: Scrappy
24-Mar-18

Scrappy's embedded Photo
Scrappy's embedded Photo
Well fine I guess I'll jump on this"my mountain bike with a motor is not motorized band wagon" What do you think? It kinda looks like an assault ebike. I think it comes with a bump seat to make it full auto as well.

From: Aspen Ghost
04-Apr-18
Jaquomo,

I cannot find any USFS regulations that require motorized vehicles to be licensed/registered by the state. I know that Colorado has a state requirement for OHV registration but cannot find the USFS regulation that you refer to. Can you please post this USFS regulation?

From: Jaquomo
04-Apr-18
Aspen Ghost, it's within the same set of TMR "non-laws" that prohibit e-bikes from using trails open to other bikes. Within 36 CFR 212.5(a)1 it specifies that states which issue off-road registration for motorized OHVs can do so, and USFS will enforce it on USFS lands within those states as a cooperative effort. In CO the USFS LEOs write tickets for unregistered OHVs and snowmobiles all the time.

If the USFS considers e-bikes to be motorized vehicles and by CO state law motorized vehicles on USFS roads must have some sort of registration, either DMV or CPW-issued, then per the USFS TMR an e-bike must be registered by the state to operate on USFS roads and trails.

Making it even stickier is the state law HR-17-1151 which says that e-bikes can travel on any trails open to other types of bicycles. So the state of CO says no but yes, the USFS says yes but no. Lots to still sort out here, which the USFS admits in their position papers on the pilot programs underway right now.

From: Aspen Ghost
04-Apr-18
Thanks Jaquomo. I don't see any conflict in that regulation since the state law doesn't require OHV registration for ebikes and the USFS can establish use designations. Below is the wording of the regulation. It doesn't require states to issue OHV registration and doesn't require registration on USFS trails. It merely subjects traffic to any state laws that aren't in conflict with the USFA regs. And there are no Colorado registration requirements for ebikes.

§ 212.5 Road system management. (a) Traffic rules. Rules set forth under 36 CFR part 261 and this section shall apply to all National Forest System Roads under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service except when in conflict with written agreement. (1) General. Traffic on roads is subject to State traffic laws where applicable except when in conflict with designations established under subpart B of this part or with the rules at 36 CFR part 261.

From: Jaquomo
04-Apr-18
Aspen Ghost, this may be splitting hairs and I'm not going to go there, but there are CO registration requirements for all motorized vehicles on USFS trails, which is what the USFS considers e-bikes. The TMR classifies them as "motorized vehicles". CO doesn't require registration because CO law says they aren't motorized. As soon as one touches ground in the NF it becomes "motorized". Our USFS offices are closed on Wednesday but I plan to call them to clarify the policy.

From: Jaquomo
05-Apr-18
Aspen Ghost, the answer so far is that there is no answer. I've worked my way through the District and now Regional USFS office. Lots of confusion. According to the USFS document I was referred to (stelprd54372), here is what it says: "All OHVs owned and operated in Colorado (including motor vehicles and motorcycles that are not licensed for public road access) must display a current OHV registration sticker when in a person's possession or operated on designated OHV trails in Colorado."

"36 Code of Federal Regulations 212.1 defines an OHV as any motor vehicle designed for or capable of cross country travel or immediately over land. OHVs in Colorado must have an OHV sticker issued by the State to ride on federal lands." This includes "Two wheeled motor vehicles on which the wheels are in-line".

Hmmm..... So an e-bike is either a "motorized off-road vehicle" or it's not. USFS says yes, State of CO says no. Somebody needs to make up their minds.

From: Rut Nut
05-Apr-18

Rut Nut's Link
Scrappy- I think I saw that one on youtube! ;-)

From: Amoebus
05-Apr-18

Amoebus's Link
Don't really care about the legality argument going on - will leave that to the professional debaters...

But I was thinking about this thread while watching the Hushin video in the link. If you go to min 11:00, you can see what seems to me is a street bike that someone put fat tires on and called it a mountain bike. I would think that protection for front and rear derailleurs would be a necessity if a company is serious about using one of these bikes in rugged terrain.

For those in the thread with ebikes, do yours have guards under the derailleurs?

From: Jaquomo
05-Apr-18
The Rambo e-bike has a read derailleur protector bracket. My conventional MTB does not. I wish it did.

From: Jaquomo
05-Apr-18
Amoebus, to clarify, my derailleur protector is off to the side, not below. I wish it had one below and I think a guy like my buddy cnelk could fabricate one easily that would bolt into the frame. But I've ridden my conventional MTB over some rough stuff and crashed it badly once and the derailleur was never damaged.

From: Ziek
06-Apr-18
Interesting thread. We just started looking into ebikes, but not for hunting. We need something compact and light to run short ( 5-10 miles) river shuttles when on the road with our RV. Space and weight is at a premium, but we want something quicker and more efficient than a regular bike.

From: grubby
06-Apr-18
Lou, Ive been thinking about this a bit, when I build one ill build 2

From: midwest
06-Apr-18
Ziek, If you and your wife ride one, you'll go home with 2 bikes.

From: Newhunter1
06-Apr-18
Ziek,

Look at the folding ebikes from Rad or quietkat.

From: Jaquomo
06-Apr-18
Mike, I sent you a PM. I put a hitch receiver on the back of my camper and carry them on a locking rack back there. For what you want you don't need a 4" fat tire bike, but the fat tire bike is awesome off-road and I ride mine into town on pavement with no issues. I plan to use mine for river shuttles for floats also. There is a dealer in Colorado who is very knowledgeable and carries a bunch of different brands and styles. ColoradoEbikes.com. I bought my Rambo from them and they've been extremely helpful with after-sale support.

10-Apr-18
Don't think I read this yet but sure Jaq will know. In CO I need to have my bow in a case when on ATV. What about e bike? What about a dirt bike?

From: BULELK1
12-Apr-18
Like stated above, I just put a Motorcycle receiver rack on my vehicle and my RadWagon rides just fine.

I got the aluminum one off Amazon Prime, $124.99, Free delivery/No sales tax.

I also got a motorcycle cover to go over it as It got all that road dust/mud on it from driving.

It was like $20 from Amazon prime.

The main issue I didn't like about the fold-up style eBikes was that they take up a lot of room when folder.

I am using mine almost daily now--weather permitting, even if it is just for being a Grocery Getter!

#LovinLife

Robb

From: painless
12-Apr-18
One of the people I ride weekly with just got the Specialized Men's Turbo Levo FSR 6Fattie/29. It's amazing how that thing climbs hills. After a 26 mile ride only 1/2 the battery was used. It's supposed to last around 7 hours of riding per charge. Weighs in at 50 lbs. https://www.specialized.com/us/en/mens-turbo-levo-fsr-6fattie-29/p/129139?color=240260-129139

From: eBike John
12-Apr-18
Hey guys, In a couple of days I'm going to post an article on ebikegeneration.com detailing the upcoming 2018 catalogs from both Quietkat & Rambo as they'll soon be available. I'll start a thread when it's ready if you're interested to check it out

From: Turk
12-Apr-18
I am looking hard at one of these. I was hunting turkey in florida and wished the whole time that i had my mountain bike with me. Then i saw this post and started looking into an e- bike. I am wondering how much actual peddling you have to do, and How well they will climb steep hills?

From: BULELK1
13-Apr-18
Turk

I have hardly used my Pedal Assist.

I have experimented with having it Pre-Set @ 1--5 and man when it is on 5 it's crazy fast!

As far as Steep, with my limited experience so far on the mountain trails, I find that rough/rocky is more important than steepness.

Make sense?

Good luck, Robb

From: grubby
13-Apr-18
I was out last night and got absolutely drenched in the melting snow. It was tough going but with the pedal assist I made it through most of it and it was FUN! I'm strongly considering adding fenders!

From: Paul@thefort
13-Apr-18
Jason Rex. Your question concerning "cased" bow on an ebike or mt bike. I see no CPW big game regulation that currently states that a bow needs to be "cased" while riding a "bike". Will one be developed in the future. Hard to tell, as years ago one could carry an uncased bow on a ATV and snowmobile. Things change. my best, Paul

13-Apr-18
Thank you Paul.

From: Jaquomo
13-Apr-18
Dirt bike yes, e-bike no. Reason being that Class 1 and 2 e-bikes are not considered "motorized" by state law.

Back to the registration question, I had a great conversation with the new USFS Regional vehicle travel manager yesterday. He said he took my questions to DC and they have no answers because their TMR regulation definitely says motorized vehicles must be registered but only the USFS and BLM consider e-bikes motorized, not CO.

He also said he believes e-bikes should be allowed on closed USFS roads at the very least, and the USFS policy on e-bikes is evolving as they conduct more pilot programs on the impact. He said the policy-makers dont understand what e-bikes really are, but he has ridden them and thinks they're great, low impact, "green" and should not be considered motorized. He said to his knowledge they have not/ are not issuing citations anywhere for riding e-bikes on closed USFS roads.

From: Turk
13-Apr-18
Thanks Robb.

From: Jaquomo
13-Apr-18
Turk, I rode up a very steep hill with mine and it was a breeze in low gear with just a little assist.

Things are changing quickly with regulations. I just got a call from the manager of County Parks here in N. CO and he said they are revising their regulations to comply with state law and allowing Class 1 and 2 e-bikes on all mountain park bike trails...

From: grubby
13-Apr-18
Jaquomo has a bright future as an E-bike advocate!

From: Jaquomo
13-Apr-18
I'm a "Community Organizer". Planning to run for president someday since I'm now as qualified as the last guy.

From: eBike John
14-Apr-18
Jaquomo, thanks for the update. it is a good sign that the decision makers are addressing it

From: Turk
14-Apr-18
Thanks Jaquomo

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