Wyoming type 9 tags idea
Elk
So I know that as a state, the resident hunters of Wyoming, when polled, don't want type 9 tags in each unit as a lot of people like to be able to hunt both seasons.
The problem with that, is that it decreases our odds at drawing an archery tag. There's more people who are archery-only putting into the few type-9 tags which reduces odds of drawing/increases point creep for those tags, or else we have to put in with the rifle hunters (type 1) to hunt archery seasons, which reduces our odds of drawing since there's so many more rifle hunters than bowhunters.
But what about this idea:
What about creating a type 9 tag in every unit, but then still allowing the type 1 tags to hunt archery with an archery stamp?
You wouldn't kill any more elk and here's how you'd do it: Look at the archery-rifle success ratio and pull a few type 1 tags. If the archery success rate is 30% and the rifle rate is 60%, you reduce the type 1 tags by, say, 5 and then create a type 9 tag with 10 tags. If the archery success rate is 25% and the rifle success rate is 75%, you pull 10 type 1 tags and create 30 archery tags, etc.
Same amount of animals die, yet...
Type 1 draw odds don't change much, if at all, due to the archery hunters leaving the type-1 pool.
New Type 9 tags available in every unit for the many of us who are archery only which will really help archery hunters draw tags.
People who want to hunt both seasons can still do that by continuing to put in for type 1 tags.
Reduces overall point creep due to there being more tags.
Increases WY G&F revenue due to their being more tags.
Seems like a win-win to me. You could keep the very few units that have type 9 tags and no rifle hunt, like 38, to minimize impact. There could also be a General type 9 tag which, theoretically, would be much easier to draw. Archery tags could be tapered down if a unit sees a significant increase in point creep for NRs or significant drop in draw odds for residents for type 1 tags.
The glaring downside to this is that it puts more NR guys in the woods during archery season (residents could still get a regular Gen Tag every year). So, perhaps it wouldn't be a good idea to add a general season type-9 tag, instead, just add the type 9 tag to the LE units. This really shouldn't increase archery pressure in the LE units as there's just not that many people in them to begin with - the units are LE and the bulk of guys are rifle hunters and/or weekend warrior bowhunters.
Not that I don't support the proposal. As an NR archer, when I hunt general units during special archery seasons.
But the moment you propose reducing Type 1 licenses available, you have alienated the bulk of the rifle hunters (resident and NR) who hunt WYO. I am basing my comment on resident comments I saw when WYO added Unit 11 Type 9 licenses.
Barebow, right, I get that. But if the type 9 tag amount was small enough, it shouldn't make a difference since bowhunters still apply for type 1 tags and they'd leave the pool. I drew a type 1 tag this year and have zero intention of hunting in October. If there was a type 9 tag available, I'd have applied for it instead of a type 1 tag.
There's actually a possibility that type 1 odds/creep would improve since there's more tags and there's a potential of more people leaving the type 1 pools than the amount of type 1 tags that were reduced.
As stated, general tags are over the counter for residents. I would like to see a Type 9 Gen tag option for NR.
Ike, As president of BOW in 2006, I presented the Commission with an idea remarkably like yours. So close it's scary. I am no longer on executive council of BOW but I stay involved, keep running stats from year to year and BOW still tries for G&F to open more units to Type 9 tags. They are unbelievably stubborn as you can tell from the very limited additions to Type 9's since 2006.
We've stressed the revenue increase and all other pertinent data to no avail. Thanks for your thoughts. Ron
That's a good fix in my book. Wyoming is leaving a ton of nonres revenue on the table between limiting archery opportunity and the wilderness babysitter welfare law.
Example: Unit X has 150 Type 1 tags. The archery success rate is 30% and the rifle success rate is 60%. So, say, 10% of the type 1 tags (15 tags) are taken and turned into a new Type 9 tag that has 30 tags. Same amount of animals die, but the type 1 pool loses 15 tags, but 30 hunters, so their odds improve. Type 9 hunters access to tags goes from 15 to 30, which allows more people to draw, which improves resident odds of drawing and allows NRs with less points to draw, decreasing point creep.
Including residents in this doesn't increase G&F revenue. But if they do it even just for NRs, it makes them a boat load more money as there's more NR tags being sold without killing any more animals.
My last elk tag was a Commissioner's tag and I was only able to hunt late season in November due to work.
I don't think I will ever hunt another late season in Wyoming. Not much fun at all.
I have not drawn out elk in WY since before there were points, but I really liked their system because the woods were empty in archery season. My plan recently has been to focus on trying to draw a good limited area without a Type 9 hunt in it so I could hunt it by myself in archery. I was blown away by how good the hunting was compared to Colorado General hunting and nobody out there to get in your way.
Your plan would make for more tag availability/revenue per animal taken for the resource. Although I would rather Wyoming stay the way it is because of selfishly wanting the unit to myself, I would be for them creating Type 9 tags in more LE units as well as in the General Units. Wonder how the success rates will affect future tag numbers though. Archery success might start climbing and the rifle hunters would have a scape goat to blame any lower success rates on.
I like it the way it is. It takes me a long time to draw where I want and when I do I know it will have little pressure. There are few NR tags. If you throw the 9's in the woods that I have to myself will become more crowded. Sound selfish??? It is, but so is the effort to get more 9's.
Everyone is a little selfish with their ideas. No doubt. But the resistance by the department has no basis with sound biology, or economics. I've shown them spreadsheets just like Idyl has mentioned with the resulting increase in income revenue, same harvest but increased hunter days afield. For a department struggling with a limited budget, it's a little bit surprising they haven't at least seriously considered it. The director of G&F says these decisions are made at the local district level. The district folks say that word has come down to them from the top - no new Type 9's. We are left in the dark.
Ron, do you know, what percentage of type 1 tag holders purchase the archery license?
Jethro, as far as I'm aware, the G&F does not track that number, only the total archery licenses sold. That would also include people bowhunting other species as well. It sure would be nice to see that number though.
I didn't think it was tracked, but figured if it was, you'd know. It would be very helpful when planning a hunt and relevant to this hypothetical that Ike has proposed.
I'm all for better draw odds for an archery tag, but not at the expense of more hunter pressure. I'd be in favor of NR tags being weapon specific. Choose archery or choose rifle, not both.
To the people that "like it the way it is," these are already LE units. 100-200 tags is already the norm, sometimes less like the Green River units. I'm talking about 10%ish of the type1 tags. We're talking about hunter densities per square mile barely being affected. And remember, some of these guys are already applying for these hunts as type 1s just like you are. We're talking about maybe 5-15 more people in an area that's often times 500 square miles give or take.
And the upside is your next tag is easier to draw. There's a possibility that it could really make it much easier to draw a nice archery tag in WY, whereas right now, point creep in WY is about 10 years behind looking like how Colorado looks right now.
Ron, that's discouraging to hear that they're not interested in looking into changes even though it could greatly increase revenue. 10-20% more NR tags would be a hefty chunk of change.
Ron, any reason given for the huge jump in price for the archery stamps for NR's this year? That was kind of unexpected.
I would be for making the hunts weapon specific in Wyoming as long as they don't go Colorado on us and dump tons of hunters in the archery seasons. I really like how empty archery season is now.
Ron you should see the recommendation section in the technology document that the WGFD published earlier in the year and I quote "we recommend an approach combining enhanced educational requirements, modest restrictions on legal methods of take that preserve Wyoming's hunting ethos, and an honest evaluation of archery seasons to recapture and re-institute a truly primitive weapon season. In addition, consideration could be given to expanded use of type 0 or type 9 licenses where local game managers and hunters believe seasons with special equipment and methods of take limitations would afford increased opportunity and be substantially supported by the public." This will be interesting to talk about at the annual video conference. Jeff
I'd love to see that document, Jeff, and be part of a working group addressing it. Hopefully we'll discuss it at our video conference.
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/About%20Us/Commission/WGFDStrategicPlan_PublicInput_Report2018.pdf
I believe this is it
I think this would be a great idea. There’s a lot of archers that are applying for rifle tags just so they can bow hunt. I think a lot of NR’s don’t have the ability to make two trips to Wyoming. Personally I’d like to have an archery only general tag for NR’s with the option to buy a rifle stamp if you want to return during rifle season.
I like the way it is now myself.
I hardly EVER see another bow hunter ( elk or deer) during the bow dates on the mountain.
If they start making Type 9 Specific/only ~~ then it will cram a lot more bow hunters on the mountain at the same time by date demand not choice.
I am a little selfish as I am only a 31/2 hour drive to my Fav units to bow elk hunt.
I totally love having the hunting option from Sept 1st thru January 31st in most Gen Elk Units. Sure, many turn to Cow only in late October/early November.......
__________________________________
I remember when Ron was going for more Type 9 tags and it got out of hand over on M&M about being greedy -- kinda was getting personal towards him, ect.
I finally said enough is enough and got on and posted I knew Ron personally and that he wasn't any of those type statements that were being thrown his way.
I certainly am No Budwieser Biologist so I let the state G&F departs & ressy hunters make the rules we all must play by.
#LovinLife
Robb
Just in the last week we learned that the recommendation to eliminate the crossover seasons in areas 41 and 45 were removed and will stay the same for now. I have stated in previous post that I’m against the crossover seasons as it is only a one sided opportunity that gives rifle hunters more time in the field than the archery hunters and reducing the quality of the type 9 tag holders with a huge influx of bow hunters the last two weeks of the season. We have pushed hard for more type 9 tags to no avail. Treeline we don’t want to go down the path of weapon specific seasons as we would lose hunting opportunities as archery hunters the way seasons are set up in Wyoming. As a lifetime member of BOW I know the work that it’s members have put into this issue.
I agree with Ike and Ron, It makes no sense that they don't wise up and maximize revenue and hunter days...
I am a resident of Wyoming and would support more type 9 tags... It would be nice to see every limited quota unit have a type 9 tag... With out a lot of public support with emails and phone calls it will never happen... Because there are organizations and people that wont support it... They want there cake and eat it to...
From: Conrad8899 15-Apr-18 I am a resident of Wyoming and would support more type 9 tags... It would be nice to see every limited quota unit have a type 9 tag... With out a lot of public support with emails and phone calls it will never happen... Because there are organizations and people that wont support it... They want there cake and eat it to...
That support will not happen since 75% of the resident and NR respondents responded they don't want a choose your weapon in more areas the last time the G&F had a survey about 6 or 7 years ago. They have added 25 Type 9 tags in each of units 41 and 45 in case you haven't noticed.
I am curious how many Bowsiters responded in the survey Top Gun talks about.
I can see how residents that hunt with both weapons would want to keep it hat way.
That didn't take long lmao.... When was the last time WF&G took a survey 2012? I didn't say choose Ur weapon Topgun... All I said was it would be nice if all limited quota units had a type 9 option... Where did U come up with choose weapon? I will sit back and wait... Because there is more coming I am sure... And yes they did add more type 9 tags for 41 and 45....
From: Conrad8899 15-Apr-18 That didn't take long lmao.... When was the last time WF&G took a survey 2012? I didn't say choose Ur weapon Topgun... All I said was it would be nice if all limited quota units had a type 9 option... Where did U come up with choose weapon? I will sit back and wait... Because there is more coming I am sure... And yes they did add more type 9 tags for 41 and 45....
***Well yes, 6 or 7 years ago like I mentioned would make it 2011 or 2012 now wouldn't it?! What would YOU call it when you have to choose whether you can only hunt on one tag or another like you have to if you draw a Type 9 tag that only allows use of archery equipment as compared to a type 1 tag where you can only hunt one season which is what I was referring to like they are trying to make units 41 and 45?!!!
I didn't say eliminate the type 1 tag holders from hunting the last half of the archery season did I? I said it would be nice to have every limited quota elk unit have the type 9 option... I never mentioned 41 or 45... I am well aware what they tried to do in those 2 units.... Bye the way a lot of things could have changed since 2011-2012... U are on record sum where supporting the type 9 tag only for 41 and 45...
From: Conrad8899 15-Apr-18 I didn't say eliminate the type 1 tag holders from hunting the last half of the archery season did I? I said it would be nice to have every limited quota elk unit have the type 9 option... I never mentioned 41 or 45... I am well aware what they tried to do in those 2 units.... Bye the way a lot of things could have changed since 2011-2012... U are on record sum where supporting the type 9 tag only for 41 and 45...
***No you didn't and I know exactly what you said regarding Type 9 tags. I also know you didn't mention 41 and 45 and some of my comments weren't aimed at you just because your quote was part of my post. All I'm doing is making a few statements regarding what most people that hunt in Wyoming that were surveyed wanted or didn't want. You said things might have changed since that survey I mentioned, but I would have to counter that with what just happened when enough people called or emailed the G&F Commissioners that it appears 41 and 45 will stay the same at least for this season. That IMHO is the correct decision, rather than pulling the plug on NRs during the application period and well before it's even voted on later this month. Yes, if I were strictly an archery hunter I'd probably like more Type 9 tags throughout the state. However, by adding Type 9 tags to a unit there has to be some give and take in how many total tags are offered and that normally would probably mean a drop in Type 1 tags since with the modern archery equipment now in use the G&F has to figure that more animals will probably be taken than with the older equipment. I'm sure that is what a lot of people look at when they say leave it the way it is that want to hunt with bow and rifle and fear they would lose a number of Type 1 tags. I started the thread regarding units 41 and 45 and this actually is an extension of that thread IMHO, especially when the change for 41 and 45 now isn't going to happen for 2018. I think that is good for the NRs who put in for the Type 1 tag in good faith with plans to hunt both seasons. However, some units like 41 and 45 have so many of the latter tag holders that hunt the last two weeks of September that it's really taking away the quality hunt that the Type 9 tag holders are looking for so that's why I went along with the recommendation to make it a choose your weapon in those two units only, but not like they were going to do it right during the NR application period. IMHO Wyoming is the best western state for resident hunters and even more so for NRs. I base that opinion from 20 straight years of hunting there without any problem drawing the tags that I want. Obviously they aren't the top tier units that take a ton of points to have a OIL chance, but I'm more than happy going out there every year and having a chance to hunt what and where I want to and I can use a bow or rifle to do that without breaking the bank.
Just to be clear I am against crossover seasons during archery seasons. There is a lot of talk about non residents not knowing about the change that was proposed before the draw in 42 and 45 but to be honest how many hunters make two different trips to Wyoming during the season to hunt archery and rifle season. As for the increase of archery license for type 9 of 25 they were pulled out of the draw when the proposal to eliminate the crossover failed. There are a total of 1125 elk tags on the draw for rifle hunters with a total of 875 of those eligible to crossover into archery season. That has a great impact on a quality hunt and does pressure a lot of those elk to move onto private land.
The tag numbers I gave are for area 41 type 1,4 and 6 with only the 1 and 4 eligible to crossover
This thread was never about “choose your weapon” or 41/45. And I acknowledged in the original post that choose your own weapon was not tenable because the majority doesn’t want it. This was just an idea to get more archery tags for someone who’d want them. There are dozens of LE units that don’t have type 9 tags. This would potentially make really nice tags easier to draw and not disaffect the majority who want the ability to hunt both seasons as is the status quo.
I am a WY resident. I really wish we would go to Type 9 for archery in all areas and eliminate the cross over totally for elk. I would like to see it in most areas for mule deer and antelope. I would like it for draw areas and general tag areas. I write them every year with my thoughts. I don't think I will ever see it in my life time though.
Idyllwild, One problem with your idea is the non resident cap of 7,250 elk licenses. In your example of X unit you take 15 type 1 licenses and convert that to 30 type 9 licenses due to lower harvest rates with bows. The problem is you would also reduce the number of gen licenses available to NR's by 15. NR's can only get a total of 7,250 elk licenses, excluding the type 6 licenses. The G&F takes the number of Full Price Nr elk licenses issued in the draw, subtracts that from 7,250 and the resultant is the number of Gen tags available to NR's. If you added 30 Type 9's but only subtracted 15 type 1's you would be reducing the Gen tags by the difference, 15. The 7,250 quota would need to be increased and that takes approval of the Commission. That is also something that will be fiercely fought against by resident hunters, myself included.
I understand the frustration from the archery only hunters but is will also say that when it comes to elk hunting Wyoming has a system that should be the envy of every other state. When it comes to numbers of elk, trophy quality, amount of easily accessible land, availability of tags and overall draw odds there is not one state that can say they are doing it better than Wyoming. I know we all want to hunt often, in the unit we want and how we want but even something as seemingly simple as adding a few archery tags can have a significant negative effect on others.
Another problem is the 16% cap for NR tags in LQ units. You cant increase the total number of tags available to NR's in LQ unit, regardless of the type, beyond the 16% total. If X unit has a total of 100 tags, NR's would only get 16 tags. Regardless of how the types are sliced and diced it wont go above 16 tags. Getting the percentage raised from 16% is going to be and even bigger fight. One that I can guarantee you will not win.
Mulecreek just did an excellent job in describing the problems that are created by doing what has been suggested in adding more Type 9 tags. The 7,250 total NR cap and 16% LQ NR cap per unit is in the state Statute and I believe only the Legislature can change those, not the G&F Commission. Wyoming without a doubt is the best western state for big game hunting for both it's residents and especially NRs by far just as he stated. From: Stryker 16-Apr-18 Just to be clear I am against crossover seasons during archery seasons. There is a lot of talk about non residents not knowing about the change that was proposed before the draw in 42 and 45 but to be honest how many hunters make two different trips to Wyoming during the season to hunt archery and rifle season.
***There are more than you think when they spend years and a lot of money on points and license fees to get a tag that will only be drawn one time in a decade or two. Just on MM alone when the 41/45 strikeout was brought up several members drew the Type 1 tag with two trips planned, if necessary. Then the guys here also said there was a guy they knew that drew that tag with the same plans and the G&F refunded his money and points when he explained his plans that appeared to be down the tubes. What NRs have to remember is with that 16% NR cap in a unit there may not be many that will make two trips, but with the other 84% living in the state they will probably be making a number of trips in both seasons until they tag out or the seasons all close.
Topgun I will have to disagree with your idea that there are more people coming back to Wyoming twice to hunt two different seasons. I live on the west slope of the Big Horns and I hunt 41 type 9 and have ran across a lot of archery hunters and they are here for the archery seasons and not coming back for the rifle season. This is my personal opinion and I wish that sometimes the non-resident hunters did not think that they had the pulse of what is going on in an area that we hunt fish camp and hike in year round. Sometimes this is best worked out on a local level.
From: Stryker 16-Apr-18 Topgun I will have to disagree with your idea that there are more people coming back to Wyoming twice to hunt two different seasons. I live on the west slope of the Big Horns and I hunt 41 type 9 and have ran across a lot of archery hunters and they are here for the archery seasons and not coming back for the rifle season. This is my personal opinion and I wish that sometimes the non-resident hunters did not think that they had the pulse of what is going on in an area that we hunt fish camp and hike in year round. Sometimes this is best worked out on a local level.
***I didn't say there are MORE people coming back because I have no idea what the percentage is. All I said is there are more than you may think and that there were several on MM and at least one on this site alone that drew 41 or 45 and had that plan to hunt both seasons. With only 16% of the total tag holders in a LQ unit being NRs there obviously wouldn't be that many even if every one was going to hunt both seasons! Therefore, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that people who live in WY will be the ones best able to take advantage of the early season archery permit if they have a general tag or a Type 1 that allows them to buy the archery permit and hunt both seasons. I have been out in Wyoming hunting the west slope of the Horns all of September and October most every year for quite some time now, so I do know a little bit more than you may be giving this particular NR credit for!
mulecreek, your first issue is a glaring problem. But your second isn't. The NR draw happens at the same time whether it's a Type 9 or Type 1 hunt, so there'd still be archery tags available to NRs. Maybe not in a couple of the Green River units, but for the most part, there'd still be tags and my numbers that I threw up were completely hypothetical. Obviously they'd have to be tweaked based on demand and formed with actual data/research. And I'm fine with NRs getting them all because they don't want them. All but the best type 9 tags are not fully subscribed by residents. Many go into the leftover draw. A minority of residents want a type 9 tag. There's not many Wyoming residents and a small minority of them are bow-only. The entire idea was just to help a subset of people without disaffecting the majority.
"Choose your weapon" solves EVERYTHING. Guys are just afraid...
If crossbows weren't legal during archery seasons, I bet there'd be a lot more support for universal type 9 tags.
I think you are spot on with that crossbow statement.
Idyllwild, The more I look at it, you are correct that there would be more LQ tags available to NR's because you are increasing the total number of LQ tags assuming that archery success is lower therefore allowing more tags but the same number of dead elk. I also agree that the number of bow-only Wyoming resident hunters is relatively small. Which is why residents will push back on this. Your idea removes type 1 tags and adds tags that the majority of residents don't want. Understanding that your numbers are hypothetical but in that scenario you started with 150 type 1 tags. Res hunters were going to get 126 of those. If you remove 15 type 1 tags and add 30 type 9 tags, residents are only going to have 113 available type 1 tags for that unit. Sure they have more type 9 tags and the grand total is higher but as you pointed out those type 9 tags are not as sought after by res hunters as the type 1's are. I can guarantee you that the majority of res hunters are going to scream like mashed cats when they see their opportunity at type 1 tags drop. And any idea such as yours is going to have to have broad resident support to get passed. I see where you are going and I don't necessarily think the idea is a bad one. I myself would not advocate to change a thing. I think the ability to hunt both archery and gun under a type 1 far out weighs the slightly better chances of drawing that would come with adding type 9 tags. But that's just my opinion, to each his own.
You are spot on with your thoughts regarding Wyoming allowing crossbows.
***What mulecreek is saying is spot on and why what is being suggested will not happen any time soon. I also agree with the crossbow statements.
From: ELKMAN 17-Apr-18 "Choose your weapon" solves EVERYTHING. Guys are just afraid...
***The only thing that would solve would be for the dedicated archery hunters to have more tags for themselves to the detriment of others and that's why it will not happen. Even if a NR could vote in Wyoming it still won't happen because dedicated archery only hunters are such a small minority of both resident and NR hunters.
I know WY has considered removing xbows from archery season. Any ideas if we'll ever see it happen?
Crossbows have had no measurable affect on archery success rates in WY over the 40 years they've been used in that season. At some point that may change but currently crossbows are a non issue in that state. Until then, crossbows aren't going anywhere.
mulecreek, while we can't say for sure, in your comment above about the scenario where residents lose 13 Type 1 tags, I can pretty much assure you that the drawing odds for those slightly fewer Type 1 tags would actually increase. That would be because the residents who only want to archery hunt would no longer be competing for those Type 1 tags.
I have tracked stats for the past 12 years and one thing has been consistent. Drawing odds for Type 9 tags have gotten significantly harder while drawing odds for Type 1 tags in those same units has gotten easier. I compile and share these results on a yearly basis with the G&F.
Ron,
I cant argue with your data, I have never looked at it that close. Is that just in units that the only way you can archery hunt is under the type 9 tag rather than the type 1 tag? I would assume it is because, in the units that have type 9 tags and you can archery hunt under a type 1 tag, why would anyone put in for the lower odd type 9 tag rather than the type 1.
mulecreek, it's a mix of units that I've been following since 2005. I'll share it here since I believe in transparency. The G&F gets a copy of this each year. One thing it does not track are license # changes and the years those occurred, but overall it gives a pretty good representation of the numbers.
Crap, I hope people can read it!
It'd be easy enough to taper the amount of Type 9 tags in any given LE unit up or down till the odds of drawing the type 1 tag by residents was exactly the same or a little better. Getting people out of the Type 1 draw improves odds. If residents lose 13 type 1 tags but also 14 or more people out of the Type 1 pool, their odds increase. Win-win.
It would be interesting to see where those type 9 residents are coming from.
IMHO the old saying that you can make stats say anything you want to is more than valid when you look at the chart Ron put up. Trying to compare up/down percentages doesn't mean a thing when the total number of tags for the two types is quite different. Also, this continual "win-win" is not accurate at all when many more people want to hunt both seasons and even one tag is lost in their draw. You guys are trying to reinvent the wheel when 75% of the people don't want any part of what you as minority hunters are offering just to help you draw a tag easier, which is all it boils down to! One word applies to what is being offered---greed!
It would Bob. I know many hunters from the NW corner of the state head for the Bighorns to avoid grizzlies. Hell, I think people from all over the state head to the Bighorns. I'd just like to see Type 9's spread more evenly over the state to see hunter distribution even out a little. I absolutely know it's a controversial subject and everyone has their own ideas, but with demand for more archery opportunity ever increasing and the G&F budget decreasing, it could be a win-win.
Topgun, the total number of tags available to either license type is irrelevant. The overall trend toward archery is obvious. As stated, everyone has their own viewpoint. Greed isn't the correct term when overall, the average difference in drawing odds in the units shown is less than 10%. As Ike said, the tags offered could be adjusted so draw odds are approximately the same.
I'm fine with being called greedy. It's not different than the greed of wanting no Type 9 tags or wanting to hunt both the rifle and archery seasons. Under my proposal, people who want the option to gun hunt like you TG, would still be able to do that.
And how do increasing odds for everyone not equate to a win-win? You say that 75% of people don't want them. Yeah! I agree! And 25% do! And under my system, those 25% of people would stop gobbling up your Type 1 tags which you covet since you're a gun hunter.
Elkman im not sure how Montana is set up but in Wyoming we do not want choose your weapon seasons. We would lose hunting opportunities. If we had to choose for instance we would only be able to hunt whitetails in September. If you had a sheep tag your season would be the last 2 weeks of August while the rifle hunter would get up to two months. Moose season would fall in the same class along with antelope seasons for archery would be the last 2 weeks of August like sheep. I enjoy hunting late season whitetails in November with my bow and would not like to see that go away because of choose your weapon. And no. I’m not afraid.
To the best of my knowledge about Montana and Applying there 'Stryker'------
It Is Not Pick a Weapon
We draw our Elk tag we can hunt All Legally Open Seasons/Bow--Rifle.
All of us that Apply in Montana must be Afraid
#LovinLife
Robb
Ron,
Thanks for the data. The odds in some units jump around quite a bit. Depending on what year you started or stopped from could give a significantly different answer. Given that, along with the change in tag numbers from year to year along with changing popularity of a given unit from year to year, another way to analyze this data would be to look at the odds in 2017 compared to the average draw odds over the series of years for each unit.
Units 35, 41 45 and 54 have special archery season under a type 1 as well as a type 9. In 35 the odds for both types in 2017 stayed flat compared to the average since 2005. In 41 and 45 the odds of type 1 decreased by 2 points while type 9 increased by 6. In 54 type 1 odds decreased by 5 points while type 9 decreased by 4 points. In these units there are only 3 years, 2009, 2013 and 2015 in unit 41 where the odds of drawing a type 9 are worse that drawing a type 1. Given that why would any dedicated archery hunters be putting in for type 1 tags so they could hunt the special archery season when their odds are worse than if they just put in for the type 9 tag? Not sure I could justify making type 1 odds worse and increase type 9 odds when type 9 odds are already better 95% of the time.
Units 38, 39 and 40 have no special archery season only the type 9 tags. In unit 38 both type 1 and 9 decreased by 8 and 12 points, respectively. 39 and 40 are the only units that show any substantive increase in type 1 odds while also showing a decrease in type 9 odds. Even at that had I simply compared unit 40's 2016 odds to the average it would show a significant decrease in type 1 odds as well as a decrease in type 9 odds. Not sure I can draw the same conclusion you did when I look at it this way vs your way of comparing 2017 to 2005.
In units 38, 39 and 40 I would be surprised if there are any dedicated archery guys putting in for the type 1 tag that would jump out of that pool if you increased the type 9 tags since type 9 is already the only archery only season. I could be wrong but I doubt it. Do you think the dedicated archery guys are just hunting during the gun season? I have not seen this but I guess it could happen.
Not trying to be a PITA but I draw a different conclusion than you do.
From: Ron Niziolek 17-Apr-18 Topgun, the total number of tags available to either license type is irrelevant. The overall trend toward archery is obvious. As stated, everyone has their own viewpoint. Greed isn't the correct term when overall, the average difference in drawing odds in the units shown is less than 10%. As Ike said, the tags offered could be adjusted so draw odds are approximately the same.
***Okay; so here are the numbers for the years 2010 and 2017 for residents who applied as a first choice for elk in the units you listed that you're keeping track of and the number of tags offered. Take a look and please tell me how you can make the statements you have. The first number is first choice applicants and the second number is tags offered with the first numbers being 2010 and the second being 2017. As you can see from the number of applicants alone there has been a big increase in the Type 1 applicants, so it really debunks your theory about the overall trend to archery: 35-1 496/118 535/125 35-9 160/42 140/42 38-1 766/330 998/294 38-9 596/210 671/167 39-1 200/74 361/166 39-9 149/59 200/63 40-1 390/142 390/193 40-9 91/42 167/88 41-1 451/305 497/302 41-9 147/109 163/128 45-1 1064/283 1134/257 45-9 277/125 296/146 54-1 268/34 291/23 54-9 45/21 61/31
Sorry the way the numbers come out on a straight line, unlike what I show when I typed them and put each unit on a separate line that made it much easier to compare numbers for each type and the increase from 2010 to 2017.
Hard to look at some of the Type 9 units as they would require NR's to hire a guide. (I would like to apply!) That condition might skew odds toward the Bighorn units also.
True that Z
There seems to be Leftover Type 9 tags in the units with large wilderness that border Yellowstone park.
It has to move non-ressy applicants to the other Type 9 elk options/units
Good luck, Robb
Another thing that skews the type 9 stats is that there's so few of them and that does a few things:
First off, you can't say that the Bighorns and 54's draw odds would be the same if there were type 9 tags in every LE unit.
Second, the fact that pure bowhunters are forced to put in with pure rifle hunters, makes Type 1 tags more attractive to pure bowhunters. If I wanted long odds at a quality tag, why would I put in for 38-9 and go hunt with 199 other guys when I could put in for any of a number of other units where most of the hunters are rifle hunters and then go hunt with far fewer guys?
The reality is that most people have no idea how much easier it would be to draw an archery tag in WY if there were more of them. Which is why I'd propose a solution somewhere in the middle. 25% of people is still a lot. And the fact remains, if you lose 13 type 1 tags from the pool, but lose 14 or more applicants from the pool, your odds of drawing a type 1 tag get better.
From: IdyllwildArcher 18-Apr-18 Another thing that skews the type 9 stats is that there's so few of them and that does a few things: First off, you can't say that the Bighorns and 54's draw odds would be the same if there were type 9 tags in every LE unit.
***Nobody has said that and I agree with that comment.
Second, the fact that pure bowhunters are forced to put in with pure rifle hunters, makes Type 1 tags more attractive to pure bowhunters. If I wanted long odds at a quality tag, why would I put in for 38-9 and go hunt with 199 other guys when I could put in for any of a number of other units where most of the hunters are rifle hunters and then go hunt with far fewer guys?
***The question I would ask is how would you know how many of them are only going to hunt with a rifle. One reason I can think of to answer your question might be because a guy is very familiar with the unit and/or maybe he lives a lot further from the other and can make more than one trip to it.
The reality is that most people have no idea how much easier it would be to draw an archery tag in WY if there were more of them. Which is why I'd propose a solution somewhere in the middle. 25% of people is still a lot. And the fact remains, if you lose 13 type 1 tags from the pool, but lose 14 or more applicants from the pool, your odds of drawing a type 1 tag get better.
***That is a rather funny statement because it would take a pretty low IQ person to not realize he has a better chance at drawing when there are more tags! Yep; 25% is a lot, but 75% is 3 times as many and that's a huge number to overcome when votes make the decision. Keep telling everyone that last statement, but you don't know for a FACT that you would lose 14 people in that draw just because 14 went somewhere else. That is very easy to see the way the draw odds show changes from year to year and most changes are up in numbers, not down. You'll just have to accept the FACT that the vast majority of people are not going to give up one type of tag in order to give you a better chance to draw your tag. That is FACT or you would see a lot more Type 9 tags throughout the state and why there was the outcry over 41 an 45 having the early season taken away from them! It all really lies with the resident voters and they have overwhelmingly spoken as to what they want and it's not more Type 9 tags.
***My comments
I guess it’s safe to say Top Gun isn’t in favor of more Type 9 tags.
My point about 25% being a lot had nothing to do with voting power, but to point out that many people would put in for the new Type 9 tags. If 25% of people responded to a poll supporting more type 9 tags, that tells you something about how many people stand to leave the type 1 pools.
If indeed, it was 25% of applicants, you could decrease type 1 tags by 20%, turn them into type 9 tags and double them, and you'd effectively increase odds of drawing for both the type 1 and the type 9 applicants.
The only thing that would need to happen would be G&F would have to watch overall harvest stats to make sure they remain the same and watch application trends and adjust the type 1/9 tags in a given unit up/down to match demand.
TG - I get it that it's unlikely to happen. I'm just throwing around ideas that would potentially benefit everyone.
From: Michael 18-Apr-18 I guess it’s safe to say Top Gun isn’t in favor of more Type 9 tags.
***I'm glad you're only guessing and not betting on that comment because you would be wrong. I really don't care if more are issued as long as it doesn't affect the Region I draw my deer tag from every year. All I'm trying to do is show why it won't happen any time soon due to what has been stated more than a couple times by myself and our WY resident.
The funny thing about this whole thread is Topgun doesn't even bowhunt......
From: Firsty 19-Apr-18 The funny thing about this whole thread is Topgun doesn't even bowhunt......
***You might better STFU when you don't know what you're talking about dude! I started back in the mid 60s with a recurve before you were probably even born, LOL, then used one of the first compounds when they came out, and still hunt with a compound! If I didn't why would I even waste my time on this website---DUH?
Firsty, that was pretty funny, but I didn't believe it to be true:)
Thanks Idyl for the thread and everyone's contributions. Goes to show that some good discussion can be had without it turning into a people bashing exercise. Ron
