Contributors to this thread:
Adding Weedeater Line in Arrows
So, who has added seedeater line to increase the arrow weight? How did it work out for you and were there any negative effects?
I've done it with Carbon hog arrows. My perception was improved penetration, but the variables involved in penetration on game (and the inherent tendency of razor sharp two blade heads to pass thru almost any animal anyway) make it hard to say definitively that it helped.
I do it and it works great. I put 5 or 6 hard kinks in it to keep it from rattling around and knocking my nocks out when target shooting. Adds about 50 grains.
I have. Works well if you kink the line with pliers. I get the right length with one arrow and then cut to length for the others. cnelk showed me it a few years ago.
Yep. Depending on the diameter of the line, 28” is about 40grs
I use it in all my arrows
Hey cnelk, what about rattling in your arrows? Had any problems there with noise? :^)
Stupid question out if curiousity......Is putting weedeater line in ur arrows versus just going to a heavier arrow a spline thing? Goal is to get more kinetic energy but staying with the correct arrow for your setup? Imma dumbie....
With trad gear I have used the weight tubes from 3Rivers Archery. I have used a heavier spine and front loaded with a 100gr .243 bullet. I'm pretty much done experimenting and just try to get a heavier gpi shaft in the proper spine.
No, not a spine thing, just being a cheap bastard because I have a whole bunch of Gold Tips at a great price and want my package to weigh more without sticking a bunch more weight up front. I get super flight with my setup and 125 grain heads.
Used to buy the weight tubes at $1.50 each. I think the weedeater string costs about a couple cents per arrow and accomplishes the same thing.
Same as Jaq. Why buy a whole bunch of new arrows when I can add trimmer line?
@ Native Oakie - all the elk and deer I killed have never noticed any string rattling :)
Also, if you dont get full penetration with your arrow, and the animal runs and breaks the arrow, the trimmer line will either keep the hole open or fall out be another piece of the trail to follow. Win win
This all sounds good. I cut a piece and it added 52 grs if i remember correctly.
Had to retune the bow tonight since the timing was off and the papertune is good now. Shot arrows with and without the line and got good bullet holes. Arrows with the line will be in the 500gr range. Now have to shoot broadheads.
I used the arrow tubes from Lancaster Archery to get my arrows up to 525 grains for Greenland. The ones I used added 135 grains and I think were $13 a dozen. They fit tight but I had to superglue my nocks in when shooting at targets. Ed F
Lou- most guys want their package to just be bigger but you want yours to weigh more. Weird.
I'm not into size anymore, only weight. Like those East coast whitetail hunters, you know?
If I was springing for Greenland another couple bucks an arrow for the heavier weight tubes would be a no-brainer. I have some heavy shafts ready to go for when I draw a CO moose tag. When I'm Like 94 years old....
Yep weight tube for me....3 rivers has a bunch of different sizes.
I don’t understand the weed eater line idea. Doesn’t it compress back when shot and push forward on impact? What keeps it from sliding back and forth in there? It doesn’t sound like a great option, but maybe I’m not understanding something. Maybe I’ll YouTube it, I’m sure someone has a “how to” on there.
It does add weight, but you are not getting the full bang for your buck as far as penetration goes. Energy is lost due to compression off the line. Fifty grains of line does not give the same advantage as fifty grains off solid weight.
I'm not an engineer but don't understand how energy is lost since the line is fully contained inside the arrow tube. The arrow speed and weight doesn't change with 50 grains of weedeater string vs 50 grains of weight tube, so theoretically the momentum and KE should be the same? Paper tears are perfect and visually the arrow flight is as good as I can get out of a well-tuned stickbow setup. Weight tubes definitely move inside the shaft which is why some guys glue the nocks in. I don't glue nocks in with string.
Seems like the alternative would be adding 50 grains up front, which will change the spine and potentially result in more paradox and lost energy. But maybe I'm missing something.
Think of it like getting hit by a pellet gun shooting a dry stiff spaghetti noodle or a wet soft one of the same weight.
Think stiff spaghetti that wont break
The trimmer line I use is .080 in thickness. My GTs are .246 i.d. - [I could actually slide 2 stings in] That doesnt leave much room for the line to compress upon impact.
Now, I did have one issue, but I resolved it by kicking the line. Without the line being kinked, and not cut to proper length, it will slide back to the nock when arrow is shot. Upon target impact, the line slides forward, hits the insert and then bounces back again, which in turn will sometimes blow your nock out.
But, like mentioned, kinking the line every 2-3 inches will resolve that and also help with any looseness inside the arrow shaft.
Like Lou, Im not an engineer, but I did pass physics class. Any weight added TO THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE ARROW will not affect spine.
Again, Ive been using trimmer line for about 10 years. I dont have enough fingers to count the animals that fell to an arrow with trimmer line in them.
Line acts in the same way as does a shock absorber. You get weight but it does not transfer to real world results on impact, due to it's inability to transfer energy. Pretty simple to imagine, without having to break out the calculator and vacuum tubes.
What sort of game requires weed eater line? My arrow weight ranges from 410 grains to 475 and it’s worked well on North American animals?
Charlie - you should read all of the posts above
I have used weight tubes once for buffalo. Did have issues with nocks bouncing out on impact with targets.
Adding weight tubes or weedeater line actually hurts your FOC by moving the balance point back on the arrow.
I much prefer to go to stiffer spine arrows and put more weight up front. You will get more FOC and overall weight that will increase penetration.
It used to be very difficult to find any heavier point weights than 145 grains. Now, there are many options for point weights up over 300 grains for field points and broad heads. With all the options out there, it is even possible to increase point weights on lighter spined arrows and tune the bow to increase weight and FOC on the arrows you are currently using.
The whole thing is just to imprecise for me and would drive me crazy. I just chose the a shaft that has the GPI that I want to begin with, I then add the additional appropriate weight via to the insert to get me where I need to be.
I think many are missing the point of the weed eater line.
Of course it is best to choose a stiffer spined arrow and throw a bunch of weight up front to get maximum results - thats a no-brainer.
But, for discussion sake, lets go this route...
I had whole bunch of 400 GTs, 28" long, with feathers, a 100gr Slick Trick, standard alum insert and nock, tipping the scale at 380grs.
Killed many animals with this setup
I wanted more weight, so instead of going and buying more arrows, heavier BHs and inserts, I just added a length of trimmer line to get to 420grs.
More weight is better yes?
Ive also shot with 2 trimmer lines for a total weight of 460grs ... without changing a thing on my arrow setup.
Im a cheap bastard too
Why not just use Round Up? ;-)
Oh, sorry, I forgot about the "cheap bastard" factor, cnelk:-)
I'm not shooting the line. I'm shooting a stiff arrow as a projectile. The string (or weight tube) is simply a passenger inside the stiff tube that adds ballast to the projectile. If the weedeater string compressed rearward with any significance it would push the nock out since its visibly up against the nock.
Lets say we have two identical Gold Tip arrows with identical heads, identical spine, identical FOC, both weighing 460 grains, traveling at 200 FPS with identical calculated KE. One has a drinking straw the full length, one has weedeater string the full length, with weight distributed equally. I want someone to produce a calculation showing how the weedeater string arrow results in measurably less energy transferred on impact.
You still gain, but you are getting a speed/trajectory penalty without an equal “impact” gain. I’m not capable of giving the “calculator” model but think of a three pound deadblow hammer and an equal weight steel or lead hammer.
Whenever something moves or changes shape, energy is used. (Lost). Same as shooting a weak spined arrow. Energy is lost at both launch and impact as the shaft bends and straightens in both directions. Same for the line inside the shaft
Also, as you launch the arrow the line compresses to the nock end and (substantially) won’t recover until impact and deceleration at which time it compresses forward and adds a secondary “mini tap”. You’d get more benefit from one solid impact.
You do get gain, just not an equal return on penalty.
The only advantage of using added weight to the entire shaft is cost, if you already have arrows you want to use that are marginally weak spined. For best results to increase penetration is not to just add weight, but to add it up front, especially if that also allows you to shoot a stiffer arrow. Guys seem to forget that there are two dynamic spines in arrow flight - one at launch and one at impact. Heavier tip weight weakens dynamic spine at launch but stiffens it at impact. That means less lost energy at impact. It also will help reduce the effect of deflections at impact, which is pretty common. It also has the advantage of increased flight stability and recovery out of the bow with the same fletching, or the ability to reduce fletching size for less in flight drag.
As to Lou's question above -"One has a drinking straw the full length, one has weedeater string the full length, with weight distributed equally." - KE and momentum would be the same. However, the compressibility of the string may be more than a weight tube. That would lengthen the time the energy is transferred. In gross turns; maybe more of a push than a blow.
The weight tubes fit...and are designed for the arrow shafts; Thumbs up
I Jethro'd the weed line for some testing as I like tinkering....I went to the tubes and didn't look back.
Treeline....then you never read my posts on using the tubes for heavy game. The light ones don't cause many issues loose...but the heavy ones need to be epoxied in or you will blow out inserts and noks. That just tells you how much energy they add.
I get it, just don't believe there is enough of a difference to matter in real-world use. I asked a few elk killed with weight tubes and some killed with weedeater string if they believed there was any measurable difference and only got shrugs...
Man you Colorado guys sure are frugal. I read all the posts above my first and noticed you use weed eater line in your arrows to kill deer and elk. I have occasionally used weighted inserts but it never crossed my mind to use weed eater line. Thanks for the tip.
Quote: " I asked a few elk killed with weight tubes and some killed with weedeater string if they believed there was any measurable difference and only got shrugs..."
This past week I killed a bear with a two blade Stinger from a 42# recurve and one with a three blade mechanical form a 65# compound. I asked them if they noticed any difference and neither answered to the affirmative. Although the Stinger bear did moan about his death a bit.
If you are not going to change arrows and can't or won't add weight, if even needed, any other way, then the weed eater line, IMO, falls into the "better than nothing " category. Just like some women; cheap, easy and get the job done, but not likely the one you want to take home to meet Mom.
Let’s put this another way.
Let’s say a midwestern WT hunter wants to go out west to hunt elk for the first time.
Instead of buying a whole new arrow setup, they can add some trimmer line to get some more heft for the week or so while elk hunting.
Then when they get back home, pull it out and go climb in their tree-stand. No harm,no foul.
I don’t particularly care if anyone approves of it or not. Maybe we enlightened some. Maybe not.
I know my mom never cared about my cheap choices in women, whiskey or ways. Why should you?
Unless the line has a tight fit inside the shaft, it will always be resting on the low-side of the arrow when at full draw and at the moment of release. This will cause it to move inside in an oscillatory manner independent of the arrow because of its solid core vs the hollow core of the tube arrow shaft.
Others in this thread have shared they have no issues with it, which shows just how much we tend to really overthink most of this stuff in archery. Sure, physics will explain everything that happens, but we're not talking particle physics or trying to cause a reaction in the Hadron Collider at CERN. Archery as we use it is certainly not finesse in any sense of the imagination. Well, maybe, in imagination...
It makes for good forum and pro shop banter anyway.
Quote cnelk: "I know my mom never cared about my cheap choices in women, whiskey or ways. Why should you?"
I'd like to say because I'm a caring person, but truthfully, I for sure care even less than your Mom. I have no skin or string in the game, simply offering an opinion on the query.
“Man you Colorado guys sure are frugal”
We can’t all get the Bowsite Pro Staff discounts, Charlie! LOL
To make up for the Colorado guys I decided to weight a dozen arrows with tightly wound $100 bulls. It takes like 4 bills per arrow, but man the penetration is so worth it! I tried it at first with $20’s but just want quite right. ;)
Weedeaters of CO....design and execute a test to prove how much additional penetration your heavier arrow gets versus the unfullfilled shaft on the same arrow. We could all make our estimates on Bowsite and the winner gets an elk hunt with Jaq and CN as the prize!
HDE, that's why most guys who use it put hard kinks in the line every few inches, so it doesn't wobble around inside the shaft.
Finesse in a bowhunting setup is often a figment of the imagination with many factors, so long as the setup falls within reasonable parameters. Like the folks who obsess over a couple pounds of KE, a few FPS, a couple percent difference in FOC. In the real world it's mice nuts.
Arguably one of the most accomplished archery elk hunters in the world (apologies to Big Dan) who has killed 52 bulls now at age 51, shoots a 385 grain arrow, 100 grain broadhead, and his FOC is around 8-9%. He doesn't post much here anymore but lurks and laughs at some of the presumably "important" heated discussions about those topics..
Jaq...your post is accurate as per arrow and bow minutia...we pole vault over mouse turds trying to optimize our set-ups.
I've killed several elk (4 to be exact), a grizzly, a moose, several black bears, whitetails, mule deer, Coues deer, etc with 375-385 gr arrows (Goldtip 55-75's...400 spine) and most were pass-throughs unless the far shoulder was encountered on exit...and I didn't hit the near shoulder, nor do I want too.
When I needed new shafts I bought some super skinny Injexions that finish up at 460 grs or so with an outsert and D-6 insert for reinforcing plus a 100 gr head. They typically pass-thru unless the far shoulder is encountered, as did my heavier, fat old 23-15's, etc. What I've experienced is dang good performance out of typical hunting arrows, broadheads and bows, whether on the lighter side or the heavier side...same with shaft diameter, skinny or fat, both get the job done.
I had no idea weedeater line would cause such controversy!
Imo, i dont think it compresses or flexes as much as some think. It can only move so much within the confines of the shaft. Anyways, im set on trying a certain arrow that has an avg weight at the correct spine. But id like to increase the overall weight and the line sounds like a good way to accomplish this. I appreciate the pointers.
try hot melt glue and lead shot , you tweak arrow spines and weight , and it won't shift in the tube
^Why not glue and weadeater line?
Do I sense a new WEEDEATER brand of arrows coming out??
cnelk said: "I know my mom never cared about my cheap choices in women, whiskey or ways. Why should you?" Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!
This thread is funny.
I tried the line and the only complaints I had were the knocks coming off and the sound it made when flex testing arrows after shooting them. I flex every arrow and with the line inside it made a strange noise that I couldn't differentiate from a weak arrow.
It definitely worked well for my son's arrows when he moved from "child-like" draw weights to a bit more heft. Was nice to add weight using the weed-eater line.
I haven't seen something related to "weed" cause so much controversy in Colorado in a long time...
I’ve tried it...wasn’t impressed for multiple reasons
Michael, care to elaborate on why you weren't impressed?
Sure, a little bit of noise, Also on impact it would sometimes knock my arrow nocks out...I feel like it affected spine as well which I just didn’t like the idea of
I used to add weedeater line, seems to work fine for extra weight and didn't seem like it caused any spine issues. but then two years ago I started using gold tips and the weight system you can add to the inserts is pretty slick.. I can add and remove weight as I need and put it all up front where I want it.
Anyone try using lead core fishing line?
How about salt, sugar or sand? That could give you some extra weight for sure! Just put in what you want to get you where you want and then squirt some Elmer’s glue in there to hold it in place!
How about water. Fill the shaft halfway and upon impact all the water will rush forward giving you that extra push. Its even cheaper than weedeater line! Unless you use Fiji water.
I know some trad guys who used black pepper when carbons first came out.
Operator error. Weedeater string won't knock nocks out or rattle if you kink it. It doesn't affect spine (same with weight tubes). Putting an extra 50 grains up front behind the head can affect spine, however, but that depends on where your spine is relative to draw weight, of course. I don't attend the Church of EFOC so having that extra up front that doesn't matter to me.
dang it, last weekend I got all confused by this thread and put arrow shafts on my weedeater. that's gonna leave a mark!
Pour in some lead shot...then some sand...then some flour...then reinsert the nock. Now you've made your arrows heavier AND arranged the weight to increase FOC. I'm going to patent that idea right away...or not.
Better check your state’s regulations on baiting, before using salt or sugar!