Bowsite.com

I understand that a bare shaft has a direction it prefers to turn… I have no idea which direction this bow does.

That being said I’m shooting 3-5” RW feathers.. Kike was over yesterday working on his bow so we played with slo-mo mode on the phone.

It appears my arrow leave the bow rotating to the left then a few yards down range completely reversed and spins to the right.

Possible or optical illusion?

I learned this late in life. For 30 years I just always used right helical arrows.

That is why people usually fletch their arrows the same direction as their bowstring is twisted. However, John Dudley did a Nockon Archery video recently on Youtube where he shoots identical arrows, except some are fletched right offset and some are fletched left offset. At 70 meters(I think that was the distance) both types of arrows hit the same spot.

Some guys claim that they shoot a dozen new bare shafts and fletch each accordingly. Lefts and rights from the same bow and shooter. So does that mean it’s not the string twist or bow or even the shooter?

I can accept the a shaft released by fingers could have an archer induced spin. But not with a release that is free to turn so there is no string torque.

Can a bare shaft spin. Sure. But if you hold an arrow buy the nock and drop it straight down, when it hits the ground it will tip some way.

By the time that fletched arrow ends it’s powerstroke on the string, the fletching has preloaded the shaft to spin in the fletched direction. If there is a force that can overcome that preload, it should be very easy to find the cause of it.

It’s about the same as sticking your tongue out the left side of your mouth when tightening a bolt and out the right when your loosening it.

As for natural direction, its all about the direction of bowstring twist...

Also, BC (before compounds) old school books advised left wing (left helical) for right hand shooter, and visa versa... I didn't have a high tech slow mo camera but did extensive testing with broadheaded arrows with feathers cut to only about 1/8" or less above the quill and found this to be true.... That's about the minimum amount of fletching to stabilize an arrow with a broadhead that can be done safely and it required a perfect release to get perfect flight.... Trust me, I tried bare shafting a broadheaded arrow and WOW, that was dangerous, good thing I didn't have any neighbors...8^)

zbone, then how do you get left and right rotating bare shafts off the same string?

If it goes one direction on one shaft then another direction, something is different, either the release or the arrow itself, but something is different... In a perfect world, physics should always be the same...

If the serving twist is opposite the string material twist, the serving may eventually loosen...

Your choice to believe what you want. Simply marking the arrow and shooting it at distances from 1' to 15 yards in 2' increments will show the initial spin and where/if it reverses.

Exactly, it's not a simple cut/dried string and serving direction deal.

To be clear, I am talking about a compound bow using adequately spined shafts using a release head that can rotate. A trad bow has to have shaft flex (archers paradox) so that shaft is purposely flex and no doubt some shaft twist is possible. Like a round ball shot from a smooth bore, that ball may have a physical tendency to rotate a certain direction, each being different. But as soon as you add rifling , round ball or bullet, that rotation is dictated.

I've watched a lot of videos of people trying to prove their theory or that it even exists and every one falls apart in the science department.

Top pros don’t worry about this….why should we?

I used to think the internet would put an end to these old wives tales like this and EFOC, Single Bevel BHs- but it only exacerbated the silliness with scammers trying to make a name for themselves….and making money from it. Modern day Snake oil.

Several of us ran through this process years ago.

Ambush - yeah, I'm finger shooting, but even with a mechanical release, it still touches the serving and rolls off a certain direction... Don't know what type mechanical releases folks use these days, but if can be, flip the release head around and see if rotation reverses...

Here is a little more info from my notes, as said though its been a long time since I crafted a bowstring:

"Twist the string in the direction that tightens the center serving...

String rotation has nothing to do with the initial arrow rotation but the serving direction does... Looking from above, clockwise serving induces a counterclockwise rotation on bareshaft arrows and vice versa... Right twist string/serving, left helical spin"

Again doesn’t affect accuracy or flight…I’ll probably not think of it again till I’m at full draw on a grizzly bear in September…ha!

Mine changes direction at roughly 10 yards with 2.25 vanes.

If it is the serving, then why don't all shafts shot from same served strings rotate the same way? Same for if it's the bow or string.

You'd think with all the R&D from bow, string, shaft and fletch companies that someone seeking the edge would have come up with a definitive answer and marketed it. But none have. I doubt that Joe Average has discovered a great secret in his basement range.

Whats the original reason we have left and right wing helical?

Shug curious, you know this how? Slow mo camera footage? If so do you have a link to footage, or does anybody have a video link to this happening, would like to see it...

"Whats the original reason we have left and right wing helical?" I suspect cavemen wanted to use both wings...8^)

It is not difficult to shoot shafts at varying distances to determine the direction of rotation.

I tested mine once years ago when Randy Ulmer first brought this to light to the masses via his short segment on Bowhunter TV. (I think he ran out of useful info by that point…,)

I found my arrows naturally spun the opposite direction of my right helical jigs on both my longbow and compound and decided I didn’t want to buy new jigs and refletch my arrows so I left it as is. All I know is my bow and arrow combo is more accurate than I am so it’s another one of those things, along with FOC, I don’t give any consideration to when building arrows.

Aligning 3 blade broadheads with my 3 fletch is really where it’s at!!! ??

Anybody remember seeing the spoked wheels on the speeding Chuck wagons changing rotations in the western movies on tv?

I asked a Dr once if he ever got tired of doing circumcisions. He said “ yes, but at least there’s a chance to get a head.”

Dudley’s video shows that the vast majority of shooters can not tell the difference in there groups when shooting right helical fletched or left helical fletched arrows from the same bow.

There are some videos on YouTube of guys comparing right and left helical shot from the same bow. At 40 yards a left helical arrow shot from a bow that clocked left was up to 3 fps faster then a right helical arrow shot from the same bow.

If you’re talking about filming fletched arrows, IT IS AN ILLUSION. Go watch the Western of your choice and watch them thar wagon wheels “reverse direction” as the wagons accelerate from a stop.

You can see the same thing with spoked wheels on automobiles under the strobe effect of fluorescent street lights. Don’t even need a camera for that.

Those wheels are not reversing rotation, and neither are your arrows.

You make a mark at 12:00 on a bare shaft.

Shoot it at 5 yards note where the mark has moved to

Step back to 10 yards, shoot again and so on. The mark will move farther and farther around the clock. The same every time you do it.

Then with opposite fletching it will stop the spin and reverse it.

There is super slow video on this subject.

Now if it matters is up to you. Most say it doesn’t. But the rotation does stop and change direction when fletched opposite of bare shaft spin. At My skill level it most likely wouldn’t matter :>)))

Naturally, my own hunting setup out of a shooting machine had the least bare shaft rotation. In fact out of a half-dozen bare shafts, only one rotated at all, and that was about a quarter turn at 10 yards.

Oddly enough the one factor that had the most dramatic affect on bare shaft rotation out of a shooting machine was the D-Loop and how it was tied, and if I used a caliper release vs a hook/sear release.

In the end, this much to do about nothing. The only advantage to fletching in the rotation of your bare shaft is the potential confidence advantage it gives you between your ears.

The single biggest thing I learned new from this was that I have gone to aligning my front tip of fletch with the back tip of the one next to it. While looking from behind, the fletchings should not have a gap between them, nor should they overlap (broadhead arrows). This is by far the quietest orientation with regard to whistle in flight.

Using a shooting machine, like x-man, should determine where the tendency to rotate is induced. Shaft? String? Shooter? Shoot ten shafts a few times for a baseline. Then nock index each shaft in quarters and see if each shaft maintains its original rotation if any existed.

There has to be a cause and with so few variables it should be pretty easy to determine. And you'd think with all the money riding on "having the edge" it would be a done deal by now.

This is a really interesting thing to ponder, and I never have. It's been a really cool thread to read through!

It's all about the $$$ "Better archery through excessive spending" was the favorite saying at our archery club.

Clear as mud right?

Giving good advice to all of the avg wannabes for decades. ( include me in that)

I wonder; Does Levi claim this as a “Thing” to psych out all of his competitors andget them going down this rabbit hole?

I’ve seen some crazy stuff from competitive archers…

I am not sure if he put out the video to get in the competitions heads or lead the people he is trying to teach down a rabbit hole.

When I think of clocking arrows there can be 2 things that are true. 1 - A bow/arrow will clock one way 2 - The average shooter (including myself) can not tell the difference in groups if a bow clocks one way but the arrow is fletched the other.

If it helps a shooters confidence and if they shoot better when they are confident. Why shouldn’t they do it?

Micheal, you stated this as a fact. A cause and effect like this would be very simple to prove or disprove, but nobody has. A vid link right after the Levi vid, from Precision Archery, has that guy clearly stating that he gets lefts and rights off the same bow. Levi cares (maybe) and Dudley doesn't.

What I can tell you for a fact is: a left hand helical will loosen your tip or broadhead. Would you rather do something that according to yourself, and so far everyone else, will make no difference to your accuracy but will be a detriment to your broadhead shaft connection, or keep that connection intact?

I'm definitely not telling you not to do anything. But you should expect to be challenged when you offer "facts' that don't seem to be supported in any provable way. Especially if it could so easily be done.

EDIT: Zbone, I watched the Levi vid again and you are correct, he does not say he clocks each arrow. But, in relation to serving or string twist being the cause, if all his strings and serving are twisted and wrapped the same way, why would he have to test each bow?

But wouldn't that "rare" one effect your confidence as well? And why not avoid that rare occurrence all together? As far as putting an o-ring between my broadhead and shaft, I wouldn't even consider it. I precision grind both ends of my shafts. When I screw that head down tight, it stays aligned.

One thing I know for sure....the things some of these pros can discern.....don't mean a lick to the rest of us. A top pro friend- that you will all know- swears he can tell the difference between an arrow 8 grains different...and by the way he used to shoot at 100y- I believe him.

15g either way to the avg guy...nope, they can't tell.

.

As far as broad heads and field tips coming loose. I have had plenty of field tips come loose shooting right helical. As for broad heads I prefer to put something on them to prevent them from working loose no matter what helical I have on my arrows.

What am I challenging? I guess the whole notion that this "force" cannot be tested for it's cause. I'm challenging the wisdom or purpose of fletching left hand helical if it has no physical benefits and does have one important detriment. I can see fletching a shaft to match a single bevel broadhead. But then again, why not just use a right rotating single bevel head to start with?

I'll ask you this and then I'll quit. I assume you fletch your shafts to match rotation? If so, what did you base that on? Are you going to re-evaluate that approach now? In other words, what do you believe causes a bare shaft to rotate?

Does it make any difference? No clue. But logic dictates: why not keep it spinning with its natural rotation rather than allowing the arrow to change direction mid-flight?

I fletch my all my arrows the way they want to naturally spin on a bare shaft. Has it improved my groups….probably. Like Pat said….Why wouldn’t you do it? It only makes sense. ;)

I don’t know what causes this action after seeing Paige’s video and reading what X man has posted. It’s obvious it’s not serving direction I once thought.

No I don’t fletch my own shafts these days. I used to a number of years ago and when I did it was always right offset. Purely because that is what the jig I bought was.

Now days out of the 4 dozen shafts I have. Half are left helical and half are right helical. I did not choose the left helical. I took some shafts in to get refetched. At the time I did not know this particular shop only did left helical.

This is how I realized it didn’t matter what direction they spun. I wasn’t good enough of a shot to tell the difference. When I was on they both were on. When I was off they both were off.

The bow I shoot now clocks left though with Easton Axis 300 spine arrows.

I think it might be a very minute string angle that’s induced during the shot. It seems as if any number of things could create a tiny string angle at the nock including the way the loop is tied, release torque, grip torque, etc.

It sure doesn’t seem like it’d take much more than micro-angled on the string at the nock coming back to perfectly vertical during the power stroke to get an arrow spinning a little bit one direction or the other.

In my case I tested one of my bows years ago and it was clocking the opposite direction I had my arrows fletched and rather than reflecting I decided it didn’t matter.

Haven't been to a bowshoot in years, but maybe if I was shooting competitively I'd make my own again, but don't see that happening, although a buddy invited me to a traditional shoot Sunday in Akron and think I might go... Dang, now am gonna have to look at the string on the bow I'm taking...8^))) Nah, I won't shoot for score, but if it's really bad, I'm gonna blame it on the bowstring...8^)))

I exhausted every possible cause and affect that I could think of and determined it was not the best use of my time, in hindsight.

BTW, my string jig is collecting dust in my basement. For $20 and a pre-paid shipping box, I'll send that to anyone willing to give string making a try. I have decided to make better use of my time and just buy strings from my neighbors at VaporTrail from now on.

The only "cause" I am comfortable saying IS the cause is torque. Now, there are several causes of torque....

My hypothesis would be that in a perfect situation using a bow with a shoot-thru cam/cable system. Top-shelf nocks and a good torque-free release, shafts would not clock at all, no matter the string construction, no matter the arrow material.

Spend the time improving yourself. The equipment is probably fine. Once you have a stiff arrow flying straight, the rest is up to the Indian.

It's torque but, that torque could be caused by any one of a dozen things...

Am I crazy, or am I crazy not to start trying to figure this out on my bow?

It's one of those things that "once you know about it, it's hard to let it go mentally" . I did it for a while (only on my fixed blade hunting arrows) just for the sake of saying I did it. I already had all of the equipment, and I made custom arrows for a living so it wasn't an inconvenience for me. But totally 100% unnecessary. Your time is better spent shooting quality practice sessions.

Can I just go on record saying thank you all, for contributing to a thread enough to get over 100 posts. And it's not even a political pissing match.

Another Dudley on point, point. I have to agree, the benefits are negligible.

If your serving is applied poorly or under too much or too little string tension(ideally 10# more than peak draw weight). If the string is not plumb with the riser. If the string touches more than just the tip of your nose. If you're using the string loop to align your peep. If one knot is more to the side than the other on your loop. If you are twisting the loop at all at full draw. If there is too much pressure pinching the nock at full draw. If there is a small flaw in the nock itself. Hand torque.... these are just the ones I could remember off the top of my head that all can make the bare shaft clock one way or the other when I changed only that variable. Looking back, I'd say one of my biggest Ah-Ha moments was the string tension while applying the center serving. Not that it makes me shoot better, but, my string and serving each last longer when I reserve under the proper tension. Too many string makers use too much tension, and too many local shops just serve under the tension of the string on the bow. Neither of which is "wrong" but not optimal.

I'm not a bow hunter turned archery nerd. and I'm not a world-class target guy turned archery nerd. I'm a science and engineer guy turned archery nerd, which I believe has given me a different perspective than most. Not that that makes me wright or wrong, just different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1E7oH9Y-MM

I am more inclined to believe it is due to Levi's shooting style. I know of lots of great race car drivers that don't know squat about auto mechanics. Having the God-Given ability to hold steady and judge yardage doesn't automatically make one a bow engineer.

I also know now that I can take the same bow and same string and same arrow, and manipulate it to clock either left or right. Even knowing that, I cannot narrow it down to any one specific cause, because there are many.

In Levi's case, It's very likely one of three things: hand torque/position, slight side pressure of the string, or the way he ties his string loop, or maybe all of them. He's a creature of habit which is why he gets the same results from nearly every bow.

P.S. This has been beaten to death but,... it's still better than political threads. :)

I also noticed fletch contact with the Blazers in a couple of those slo-mo shots...

Made my point, the horse is dead, I'll shut up now for you ambush...

But you're right back to saying that the most easily provable cause is the string/serving. That would be a simple matter of a few experiments, but no one has done it. Not Mathews or Hoyt, not Levi or Dudley nor any other person or company that makes archery gear. Don't you think that with all the combined R&D and engineering power of all the bow and tackle manufacturers that it would have done that by now? Or maybe by the guys that make their living hitting X after X. Why not? Why doesn't some one offer bows that are stringed and served for your prefered rotation? Be a great sales edge!

If a person is shooting fingers, you could make a bare shaft clock whichever way you want simply by torquing the string one way or the other.

Now I'll shut up for you Zbone. :)

I just don’t get the whole argument about arrows reversing the direction of their rotation…

Because firstly, wagon wheels in old westerns always appear to reverse rotation, when we know that they absolutely do not.

Secondly, if an arrow is fletched to rotate the arrow clockwise, you would have to document the shaft spinning counterclockwise to start with, no? Because the fletchings are always there, always forcing spin in one direction, not just a one-time impulse, so fletching influence will certainly have to win out eventually; it just seems improbable that the fletchings would be overpowered coming off the bow when their influence should be at the maximum because that’s when speed is highest.

On the other hand, nock & string are solid media, so OK, that’s more forceful than drag…. But shouldn’t the spin-inducing upset in the string be visible on high-speed film?

Just seems like the whole question could be resolved pretty quickly with a fast enough frame rate…. But to Ambush’s point… if it’s not 100% predictable or controllable from one shot to the next, it’s kind of a moot point….

And FWIW, I’m enjoying X-man’s efforts. The easiest way to get a teenager/college kid to talk to you is to ask an intelligent question about a subject they know a lot about, and the tech review here helps me do that with Thing One….

As said above, it's no biggie but if I were an Olympic shooter or caliber of competition shooter as Mr. Morgan, would make sure my string serving was correct... Doesn't make ever Joe-Smo bowhunter go out and buy another bowstring, but if it bothers them, only re-served is needed, and if that serving is opposite of the string material twist, it'll work fine but may eventually loosen... Depending on the setup, but if compound likely easier to change arrows or re-fletch to the natural rotation helical if a perfectionist...

Okay, now I'm done, I just killed this horse...8^))) I used a 700 grain shaft with a single bevel 2-blade, left wing feathers, clockwise twist serving out of a 49# longbow... Got complete penetration through both scapulas...8^))))))

I think you DO care if I believe you, but you are correct, I don’t.

Levi is not “my boy”

Levi didn’t say it WAS the serving, just suggested it “ maybe, could might have something to do with it”. If he thought it did, he ( and anybody else that cared) would simply have five left strings and five right strings made for the same bow, shoot them and either prove or disprove the theory.

Something being wrote down years ago by some obscure person and passed along doesn’t make it true. Kinda like people used to believe that a spike buck was one year old, a fork was two years old , etc.

Left hand fletching came about because it gave the hunter two wings to get fletching from. It was economics, pure and simple. Then those same economics came into play when fletching jigs were built and sold. Tradition and religion evolve very slowly and when the two are combined it’s slower than the glaciers melting and the mastodons following the retreat.

Let me know when you get those ten strings built.

I DON"T care, bet you didn't pay attention in the classroom neither... Go back and read my posts,,, yes left and right wings were probably used since the stone age because of their availability...

You brought up Mr. Morgan...

If those guys scratching their heads with the super slow-mo cameras would have paid attention to the serving twist, they likely could have confirmed natural rotation with a bow vise machine (can't remember what it's call) and a D-loop, but that seemed to past them by... They had a perfect opportunity with those cameras to do so... If I'm wrong and along with all those string crafters before me, I'll stand to be corrected...

As said, I'm over my bowyery/bowstring crafting phase since the 80's and 90's, even took a course from Dave Gutherie of Appalachian Archery around 1993, it's been 30 years now and can't remember how I learned it, or maybe from Jay Massey's "Art of Bowyery", regardless I took notes and shared them here...

The art of archery is being lost to technology with arrow shooting devices, but regardless of stickbow or compound, the arrow is a projectile propeled by a string and there are some smart guys over on the LeatherWall highly experienced who I'm sure will too confirm it's serving twist... Again, the center serving is the last thing to contact the nock creating the rotation...

Photos attached is detailed twist of bottom tip of my current hunting bow's string custom crafted by a gentleman who called them Mountain Mufflers... It is the second such string on that bow, and I don't believe he creates them any longer, but personally I will not be building any more strings... I'm over it...

Okay, this dead horse is now starting to smell, and I will not return,,, I swear this time...8^)

Zbone's post from 8/6 made me laugh. Many years ago I shot a bare shaft with a fixed-blade broadhead from my compound. It flew every direction except back at me (thankfully). I'll never do that again...lol.