Them’s Fightin’ Words.
First thing: “what Howard Hill said” depends upon whom he was addressing and at what point in his lengthy career… He said a LOT of things, and without studying it all in exhaustive detail (which I have not done), it’s hard to know if he fundamentally changed his approach over time or if he simply described it differently over the years. And unfortunately, seems like most of those who have studied SOME of what Hill said in great detail are people who have not paid a lot of attention to the rest of what he had said or written elsewhere…
But one of the things he described is “split-vision”, which nowadays (at least on Leatherwall) is more often referred to as “Gapstinctive”, and is wildly popular with people who want to be able to hit anything beyond about 17.4 yards. Even some who are either unaware or prefer not to acknowledge that they’re doing it….. Like the guys shooting 3-under with a high anchor under their eyeball who insist that they aren’t “looking” down their arrow…
Fred Asbell told great stories and apparently made a good bow, but a cerified Archery Coach, he was not; I think he did bowhunting a real service by encouraging people to work on getting their hunting shots down to within 20 yards or less whenever possible, but he did a real DISSERVICE by convincing so many people that hitting an 8” or 9” “pie plate” at 20 yards (most of the time) is somehow the Gold Standard of barebow accuracy. A lot of his Disciples seem to find it Impure to even consider taking practice shots beyond 50 feet…
The problem (IMO) with the hype around “instinctive” is that it IS where you can End Up… after you have built a foundation of solid solid form and strong technique.
Pretending that you can learn to shoot that way is… misguided… at best.
I’ve noticed in many activities that it’s a bad idea to ask someone to teach you something if they don’t recall learning how to do it themselves. And if you don’t believe me, just ask a teenager how to do something new on your computer; they’ll whip through it so fast that you’ll have exactly zero idea what they’ve shown you unless you knew about 95% of it already. A good coach or a careful reading of a good reference book will get you squared away on that first 95%. The rest of it, you can enjoy pursuing for the rest of your life….
I have no doubt I could easily learn to shoot with sights (I was an expert marksman in the Military), but, I've been shooting a bow this way my whole life. I just know how to make the arrow hit the spot I'm focusing on (and, I can't see the tip of my arrow, because I shoot through a Whisker Biscuit). The brain-body connection, is an incredible and adaptive machine!
I placed 5th in the world back in the 90s shooting IBO 3d targets in Shelbyville, IL. Since then have missed some monster bucks at less than 20 yards. My biggest hint of advice would be stay after it and develop a style or habit and practice all the time.
Shane
X2!! One of the things about this type of archery is that you have to shoot a lot, and if it's outside shooting Judos at weed heads, dirt clods, shadows etc. it's even better. You really have to LOVE it! Oh, darn it, now I think I'll have to go out back and shoot some more........ ;-)
If an "expert" or a "coach" (whatever that is) saw me shoot my recurve they'd probably have an aneurysm regarding my form.
I hit what I'm shooting at and I kill stuff. It might not be pretty or text book but it works for me and I have fun shooting.
Intinct is a well suited term for the method, how it can be learned, improved, and maintained, but not because anyone is born with it. It's a well suited term because the most applicable definition is "Behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level." 'Behavior' referencing both the learning process, and the actual aiming. Precisely how it works.
Corax, you're wrong. I know it for a fact because I myself am proof of it. I learned to shoot that way, first, right from the get-go in a straightforward manner, not in a roundabout way using ANY degree of conscious reference-type aiming hoping it would eventually morph into instinctive. No pretending. Did it. Intimate with it. Done. Didn't take long either. Taught others to do the same. YOU are misguiding others in the absence of facts. Just stop already. The 17 yard thing is b.s. too, and reveals your inability, bias, and/or unfamiliarity. But hey, who am I to convince you to stop letting that sunlight in. Keep it up.
And that doesn’t slight you or any mentors you’ve had; you can’t fault anyone for not knowing what nobody knew at the time.
The great thing about Real Science is that the best information available is constantly being updated… with better information.
And the brain science around how we learn complex tasks has been extensively built out and re-written in the past 20-25 years, so why not tap into it?
Recommended Reading:
The Talent Code
Guitar Zero
Neither work is Archery-related, but about how we come to master complex tasks and how the neuromuscular circuits can be grown out more efficiently… or less, if you do it wrong…. We’ve already all agreed that it’s largely a matter of PRACTICE, so why not go about it as productively as possible…. ?
Now i really don't know how you all do it, but me? I been at this a long time, that's not boasting its just fact.....I am not the worlds greatest shot, but i am consistently a pretty good shot... so ....
at first i was a bonified gap shooter, yes i aimed with my arrow.........shot that way all through the 80's and 90's, and beyond, longbows, recurves....then a funny thing began to happen i realized i was shooting (and hitting) mind you what i was looking at without even looking at my arrow, especially under 25 yds....i would shoot a deer and think afterward...hmmm...don't think i even aimed.
well i would say after all those years, it just became ingrained in this noggin of mine....i kinda wanted to fight it because i thought, i HAD to aim!...but ya know there was that arrow right where i was looking, so i thought....well ya know hitting the mark is the name of the game right?...so why fight it?...let it happen.
now beyond 25 i do tend to resort back to gap, because frankly i do not shoot enough past 30 for it to be ingrained...and hunting i do like to keep it under 30..(15-20) is my preference
Now im gonna really stir the pot......Again you may differ, but once i began drifting to more instinctive, i really lost the need to hang out at full draw and anchor it does not benefit me except at longer ranges and that is because i am then resorting back to aiming....now for the pot stir.....I can shoot a much heavier poundage bow than most guys that have to aim..... often 70-75#
under 25 yds i am looking at the spot i want to hit, all while drawing, on occasion for some reason i may even hesitate before that last inch or two, and really fix my eyes on the spot, then complete the draw....middle finger hits the corner of my mouth and its gone, i never stop drawing, not a dead release, a pull through release...i also draw much slower than many simply because it best mimics a hunting scenerio.
Argue all ya want but i am probably shooting better than i ever did under 25 yds.....i imagine a target shooting coach might blow a gasket at my style....but it is kinda hard to argue when your hitting what you want to.
I’ve noted over the years with myself, and a lot of my fellow friends that a new bow could be picked up and bull’s-eyes immediately. Then, after four or five days that’s so good? Then sell the bow and look for something else and immediately bull’s-eyes, then after a week or so, not so good and it’s repeating over and over. Find a bow that fits hand good and that is quick and quiet and don’t put it down, shoot that bow over and over and over and over till it is like putting on the old leather belt. You won’t even have to look for the loops in pants! God bless.
Instinctive shooting I think is focusing and shooting ... be a it a ball, an arrow, throwing something ..... focus, mechanics of what you're doing and do it the same every time
that's not to say using a point of aim or gap shooting don't work
Stealthycat’s on board, too — “ focus, mechanics of what you're doing and do it the same every time”. The process of throwing a ball does not put an obvious aiming apparatus right under your nose, but Archery DOES.
You can fight the feedback while your brain goes ahead and learns to use it with or without your permission, or you can use it to make those small-but-necessary corrections on every shot until they’re no longer required because your anchor has gotten so consistent that you’re already spot on when you hit that point in your draw cycle.
Most people wanting to learn to shoot instinctively would probably get there fastest with a peep and a single pin. And a clicker. Which is not The Traditional Way…. But Brain Science says it should produce better results, faster. Call me crazy, but I think the very idea of that really pisses some people off….
How many of you could pick up a baseball and hit a pie plate every time at 15 or 20 yds? without a LOT of practice?....truthfully?...not many
There are those rare gifted individuals that can but most of us need practice.....If you are all over the place it's hard for your brain to ever become automatically focused....If you want to start out shooting instinctive without gapping or using your arrow, or you just are not consistent....The absolute BEST way to become consistent is start out close and shoot from there until your arrows are hitting where you are looking every time...then move back.
To many guys want to skip all the work, and they never really condition their brain. They shoot from 10, then move back to 20 without ever getting good at 10....and your brain never really fully adjust...and one day your good, next day your not, its 2 arrows good, and 2 flyers...etc..etc..etc..
in order to become consistently good, you have to hit what your trying to hit often enough for your brain to adjust to that.
if your always throwing high and outside...your brain doesn't automatically start putting them straight down the plate....you have to put it there often enough for your brain to start doing it instinctively.
I agree 100%.
I'll also add that it's not really "work" if you love doing it. I think a lot of guys are in love with the idea of traditional archery but not the dedication and practice it takes. A lot of people are looking for short cuts.
That said, not everyone can learn the same way, at the same rate, or even learn to do the same things. Instinctive aiming isn't for everyone, no aiming method is, and neither is any one learning method. But if it IS the goal, and one is capable, it can be learned directly in a relatively short amount of time.
Just out of curiousity, how long would one 'probably' have to shoot with a sight pin, peep, and clicker before they could become proficient with instinctive aiming?
I’ve seen some good instinctive guys with stickbows…it can be done….but the Gap and Stringwalkers are more consistently accurate for sure.
I gave it a go for awhile….when I missed a 140 class buck at about 20 and 25y ( twice!) the instinctive guys advice of, “ You just have to shoot more” didn’t resonate with me.
I went to a gap and gapstinctive method ….and now I’m pretty darn accurate at my PO and in. It helps that I don’t shoot a heavy log of an arrow…that made my gaps too big- less accurate for sure.
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You can throw a baseball, you can kill animals at reasonable distance.
Trick for me was year round shooting, but I loved watching an arrow fly.
Call your method poke and hope if you want. Just develop a solid shot sequence and you will hit your target. It’s not mystical. Or, even hard if your minds into it.
You’re saying it’s two different things, and it’s really not. You can’t shoot sights/gap WITHOUT hitting the same anchor, because your anchor IS your rear sight, really — a peep arguably just “helps” you hit it every time, if you think about it. Because you can look through the peep-hole and still miss, but if you hit your anchor, you can’t help but be looking through it.
“Just out of curiousity, how long would one 'probably' have to shoot with a sight pin, peep, and clicker before they could become proficient with instinctive aiming?”
Long enough to come to full draw with eyes closed, then open the the eyes and find the sight pin centered in the peep. (The clicker doesn’t aim for you, obviously, but it’ll standardize the velocity and minimize vertical scatter, right?)
Starting out, the peep and pin tell you where your anchor is; with time and attentive, disciplined repetition, you can grow out a neuromuscular circuit that has you anchored in precisely the same spot every time, and the peep/pin are just along for the ride. And the more precise you are with every repetition, the faster, cleaner and stronger the circuit. I’ll bet most of the peep&pin guys here who are really good shots hardly ever have to hunt for their peep or adjust their bowhand to get that pin centered on their target. I’m sure it Just Happens. If they pop off their front sight, they’ll keep hitting; not itty-bitty groups, maybe, but say under 8” at 20 yards, I’d bet. They might need to work on trusting it for a bit, but if their left and right hands are accustomed to coordinating with each other, those arrows should go where they’re looking.
Analogy time: If someone handed you a chainsaw, pointed to a stack of logs and told you that they’d pay you $2 for every piece of firewood that was some unusual number of inches long, give or take 1/2”, but not a nickel for anything longer or shorter, would you just eyeball it and start cutting “instinctively”, or would you find a way to measure each piece to spec before you cut until you could eyeball it down to within half an inch every time? Because I’d bet you’d get there.
It's important to be able to tune your bow/arrow combination to shoot where you look though.
What screws up shooting is *thinking* about it when your focus should be on *doing*. (And I've been making this mistake for 30+ years now. ;-) )
Didn't contradict myself at all IMO! FORM means everything in archery; no matter whether shooting in the Olympics or bare bow in the woods. Jerry Hill advised me once that Howard Hill shot his bow daily up until he got sick; oft times shooting up to 150 arrows daily. So....using the skill that he developed over many years of shooting, whether inherited from heaven or hard work, Mr Hill believed in practice and the retention of muscle tone through PRACTICE! Howard Hill was asked many times I would guess by many people "how do you do that?" Rather than coming back with a reply of "well I just look at what I want to hit and that's where the arrow goes" he came up with what he called 'split vision' or what's generally referred to as 'gap shooting'. Gap shooting I think works best for archers that wish to shoot out to 50 yards or better but I never used it for closer shots over the 60 years of hunting I did with the bow. Watching the performances that Howard Hill put on before the public it should be readily apparent to a sane observer that in the time frame in which Mr Hills' shots were made that there was no time for aiming; rather it was all done in what I refer to as instinctive. Six years ago I went through 44 sessions of radiation treatment for prostate cancer and in conjunction with that my Doc advised me to take three injections of estrogen because cancer loves testosterone! As a consequence of the combined treatments I was put into a weakened state because the estrogen robbed me of all of my muscle tone. I recently bought me a recurve bow of 62" length of 45# and have started to shoot again; it's been a battle but old muscles are becoming toned again and at 20 yards I'm pretty consistent in putting my arrows at a point I'm looking at. If there's a whitetail buck in Oklahoma that's stupid enough to come within 20 yards; he's in trouble I think! STAY SAFE GOD BLESS TO ALL!
